Truth...

Cosmo

bootlegger10 wrote:

Well, someone responded to me earlier that I was talking more about morals than truths. I haven't read the whole thread so maybe I am off topic. I would think truths are similar to morals.

Well, for the sake of argument how do we know that slavery being bad is a "truth"? (Disclaimer: I think slavery is wrong). Was it right in the 1700's because people thought it was, or is it wrong in 2012 because people think it is? What I'm saying is that the will of the people determines a truth at any time, and that will changes over time. So to declare something a truth I think would be difficult without a common source that determines it.

If I am off topic please ignore.

...
Even in the 1700s, the question of slavery being good or bad, right or wrong all depended upon where you viewed it from.
From the standpoint of a farmer needing hands to tend his fields... it wasn't illegal, therefore, it was good.
From the view point of the slave... legal or not, it was bad.
Both of those are relative... master or slave.
If you want to find the universal truth, you have to ask yourself, is it better for me to be a free man or a slave?

pandora

Cosmo wrote:

pandora wrote:

Knowing God is not unique. You seem to think so though.
I try to understand why you think this way and continually it takes me back to
you will not. Just really shut down you are about this.
Are you searching? Would you like to know God too?
Why would you not change techniques to accomplish what you seek?

If you don't seek it then why are you not a proclaimed atheist or have you grown to be?

...
God knows me.
You know God.
You tell me.

Does this mean you want me to guess?
ok... If I had to guess I would say you are growing towards atheism.
Very different then when first conversation about God began. That's cool
there you may find what you need. Everyone grows on their paths.

Cosmo

pandora wrote:

I hope my Dogs too continue on cause they are more awesome
than most people

...
That's what God tells you? Dogs are more awesome than 50% of all people?
...
And I'm the one that doesn't understand?
...
Hmmmmm... o... kay.

Cosmo

pandora wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

pandora wrote:

Knowing God is not unique. You seem to think so though.
I try to understand why you think this way and continually it takes me back to
you will not. Just really shut down you are about this.
Are you searching? Would you like to know God too?
Why would you not change techniques to accomplish what you seek?

If you don't seek it then why are you not a proclaimed atheist or have you grown to be?

...
God knows me.
You know God.
You tell me.

Does this mean you want me to guess?
ok... If I had to guess I would say you are growing towards atheism.
Very different then when first conversation about God began. That's cool
there you may find what you need. Everyone grows on their paths.

..
I was applying simple logic that says... God knows everything, right? Therfore, God knows me, because I am part of this 'everything'. Since you know God... God should tell you what He knows about me.
So, tell me... what does God know about me?
...
But, you don't know... therefore, you guess (and quite wrongly, i might add). That leads to the conclusion that you do not truely know God, even though you truely believe you do. I have absolutely no problem with your belief.. just as I have no problem with Pat Robertson's belief or Rev. Phelps' belief or any other belief... based on religion or not. I call bullshit on anyone claiming to know for absolute certain... that they know because if that were true, it would nullify every other belief out there.
You are my proof... with every word you type, you prove my point.

bootlegger10

Cosmo wrote:

bootlegger10 wrote:

Well, someone responded to me earlier that I was talking more about morals than truths. I haven't read the whole thread so maybe I am off topic. I would think truths are similar to morals.

Well, for the sake of argument how do we know that slavery being bad is a "truth"? (Disclaimer: I think slavery is wrong). Was it right in the 1700's because people thought it was, or is it wrong in 2012 because people think it is? What I'm saying is that the will of the people determines a truth at any time, and that will changes over time. So to declare something a truth I think would be difficult without a common source that determines it.

If I am off topic please ignore.

...
Even in the 1700s, the question of slavery being good or bad, right or wrong all depended upon where you viewed it from.
From the standpoint of a farmer needing hands to tend his fields... it wasn't illegal, therefore, it was good.
From the view point of the slave... legal or not, it was bad.
Both of those are relative... master or slave.
If you want to find the universal truth, you have to ask yourself, is it better for me to be a free man or a slave?

Good point.

pandora

Cosmo wrote:

pandora wrote:

I hope my Dogs too continue on cause they are more awesome
than most people

...
That's what God tells you? Dogs are more awesome than 50% of all people?
...
And I'm the one that doesn't understand?
...
Hmmmmm... o... kay.

God tells me this? Where did you get that from? :fp:

Do you have a dog?

pandora

Cosmo wrote:

pandora wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

...
God knows me.
You know God.
You tell me.

Does this mean you want me to guess?
ok... If I had to guess I would say you are growing towards atheism.
Very different then when first conversation about God began. That's cool
there you may find what you need. Everyone grows on their paths.

..
I was applying simple logic that says... God knows everything, right? Therfore, God knows me, because I am part of this 'everything'. Since you know God... God should tell you what He knows about me.
So, tell me... what does God know about me?
...
But, you don't know... therefore, you guess (and quite wrongly, i might add). That leads to the conclusion that you do not truely know God, even though you truely believe you do. I have absolutely no problem with your belief.. just as I have no problem with Pat Robertson's belief or Rev. Phelps' belief or any other belief... based on religion or not. I call bullshit on anyone claiming to know for absolute certain... that they know because if that were true, it would nullify every other belief out there.
You are my proof... with every word you type, you prove my point.

You would think God's subject would be you? Why?
Does that seem odd to you? It does me.

Yes we established you call bullshit, which is all telling.

Try a little exercise ... first off, can you imagine God? Really imagine.
Take some time with this thought. Do not apply any preconceived religious overtones,
leave yourself open to what your mind will conjure.
Keep this with you until it is comfortable, reliable...
could be days, however long until you sense fulfillment.
Then we''ll talk again.

If you have any trouble doing this it may be that you are unable to believe.
Do you think perhaps you are a closet atheist?

I say this because it seems at every turn you deny, not towards me but in general.
Cynicism seems to be in control and a general dislike of religion.
As your comment about the afterlife.
Do you feel you can not separate God from religion? I've asked this before
but I don't think you answered. You seem to avoid my questions about this
that can bring everyone to more understanding, including yourself.

If you can not separate God from religion and it seems you experience a general dislike
of religion it would be difficult to commit to the idea that God exists,
it would be very hard for you to commit to knowing God.

Could there also be an inability to commit to Atheism? I believe you just stated
you don't think you are an atheist. Perhaps committing is difficult.

redrock

riotgrl wrote:

redrock wrote:

I see what you mean Riotgrl, but is 'soul' not a belief (ie a relative truth) in itself? One cannot deny the physical but one's 'essence' is debatable.

But then we could debate what makes up our essence For example, is our essence, spirit, whatever located IN our brain which ceases to exist upon our physical death? Or it is something greater than our physicality and it goes beyond our physical self? I believe that you and Cosmo share the same belief that I do that death is one of the few absolute truths but this has been floating through my brain today. And said brain now hurts

Interesting... Soul is relative. Some believe only humans possess 'soul', some believe that animals do as well - so 'intelligent' (to some degree) beings. Others also believe that ALL biological matter (human, animal, plants..) have soul and some go further than that (was it you that was speaking of animism in another thread?). And also there is a belief that there is no soul at all - what constitutes 'essence' is just evolution/genes (scientific approach?). So different beliefs about 'soul', all of which (except the latter), based on dogma.

Some being 'spiritual' beliefs (an obvious relative truth) and another would be the evolution theorists take on it. One would think that the 'science' guys would come trumps on this but they haven't yet. Whilst most agree on the theory, they have not yet been able to 'chart' this. So relative truth as well? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

Cosmo

pandora wrote:

Try a little exercise ... first off, can you imagine God? Really imagine.
Take some time with this thought. Do not apply any preconceived religious overtones,
leave yourself open to what your mind will conjure.
Keep this with you until it is comfortable, reliable...
could be days, however long until you sense fulfillment.
Then we''ll talk again.

...
NOTE: Focus on this topic (the portion that says, 'Pandora wrote:')
(The omitted portion of that message was nothing more than puerile baiting to get me off topic.
I am certain that you will respond to this (NOTE:) portion of this message... but, am hoping truely that you will prove me wrong and remain on topic).
...
That said, regarding your little exercise...
I have been soul searching since about 1973. That is about 40 years of trying to find truth. That pretty much dwarfs your suggestion that I try someting new, because it is nothing new to me. I have heard this very same thing... literally, a 1,000 times before. From religious persons and theologists and spiritualists and everyone else with a personal opinion on who/what God is. I believe it is silly to 'Imagine God' because the simple truth is, God either is... or isn't. Imagination is confined to the individual... meaning what I imagine is probably not even close to what you (or anyone else) imagines.
IF God exists, I believe He/She/It exists outside the realm of religion. Man created religion. Be it Jewish faith, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Scientology, etc... Your personal religion of one (the religion that you believe you know God)... it is the same thing.... concocted to fit you. Which is fine with me because I really don't care what people believe. It may be true to you, but it is not the singular Universal truth. It is just like every other religion that claims to know God.
My personal belief... to which I openly admit to being belief, not knowledge, not truth.. is that the knowledge of God is beyond the feeble mind of Mankind... in this physical Universe... at this space, in this time in Earth's existance. This is based upon the truth that NO Human, in the entire history of Mankind, has ever been able to prove it. There have been many, many instances of belief... and I have heard of a lot of them... but, none have ever expalined God to me. I'll even go so far as to call it 'My Religion'... the Religion of Cosmo... created by Cosmo.... suited for Cosmo. I'm not even going to call it a 'Relative Truth' because i know it is not based in truth.. it in my 'belief'.
So... I keep looking.
...
Again... please... try to remain on target and spare the personal commentary on who you believe I am and what you believe my motives are.

cincybearcat

pandora wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

pandora wrote:

I hope my Dogs too continue on cause they are more awesome
than most people

...
That's what God tells you? Dogs are more awesome than 50% of all people?
...
And I'm the one that doesn't understand?
...
Hmmmmm... o... kay.

A lot of dogs suck...but then again, most people suck. I think you are both right and they both suck.

Cosmo

cincybearcat wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

pandor wrote:

I hope my Dogs too continue on cause they are more awesome
than most people

...
That's what God tells you? Dogs are more awesome than 50% of all people?
...
And I'm the one that doesn't understand?
...
Hmmmmm... o... kay.

A lot of dogs suck...but then again, most people suck. I think you are both right and they both suck.

...
Ain't that the truth?

catefrances

i had a revelation a few days ago.. it occurred to me that Nature is truth.

Cosmo

catefrances wrote:

i had a revelation a few days ago.. it occurred to me that Nature is truth.

...
That is something I believe. All things... living beings, cats, dogs, bees, trees... not living things, rocks, dirt, fire, water... both here on Earth and out in the Universe... exist in Nature and follows the rules Nature enforces.

brianlux

catefrances wrote:

i had a revelation a few days ago.. it occurred to me that Nature is truth.

:thumbup: That make SO much sense to me. Nice!

catefrances

brianlux wrote:

catefrances wrote:

i had a revelation a few days ago.. it occurred to me that Nature is truth.

:thumbup: That make SO much sense to me. Nice!

it made sense to me too... tho i suspect its something thats always been inside and until the other day i never labelled it... or thought of it in those terms. it was just something that was.. is.. and always will be.
Nature has solid reasoning for doing all she does... she never acts arbitrarily... she exists to sustain life. and to me that is a major part of her truth, if not the entirety of it.

Cosmo

catefrances wrote:

it made sense to me too... tho i suspect its something thats always been inside and until the other day i never labelled it... or thought of it in those terms. it was just something that was.. is.. and always will be.
Nature has solid reasoning for doing all she does... she never acts arbitrarily... she exists to sustain life. and to me that is a major part of her truth, if not the entirety of it.

...
Ancient Man created gods to explain Nature... as well as human nature. That is how we had gods that controlled Natural occurances, such as weather and oceans as well as gods who controlled love and war.
...
We later came to figure out it was Nature, not Posidon that sets rules for the oceans... and Man that decides to love or hate.

brianlux

catefrances wrote:

brianlux wrote:

catefrances wrote:

i had a revelation a few days ago.. it occurred to me that Nature is truth.

:thumbup: That make SO much sense to me. Nice!

it made sense to me too... tho i suspect its something thats always been inside and until the other day i never labelled it... or thought of it in those terms. it was just something that was.. is.. and always will be.
Nature has solid reasoning for doing all she does... she never acts arbitrarily... she exists to sustain life. and to me that is a major part of her truth, if not the entirety of it.

And she never, ever lies!

Oh, and I've heard tell she always bats last.

catefrances

Cosmo wrote:

catefrances wrote:

it made sense to me too... tho i suspect its something thats always been inside and until the other day i never labelled it... or thought of it in those terms. it was just something that was.. is.. and always will be.
Nature has solid reasoning for doing all she does... she never acts arbitrarily... she exists to sustain life. and to me that is a major part of her truth, if not the entirety of it.

...
Ancient Man created gods to explain Nature... as well as human nature. That is how we had gods that controlled Natural occurances, such as weather and oceans as well as gods who controlled love and war.
...
We later came to figure out it was Nature, not Posidon that sets rules for the oceans... and Man that decides to love or hate.

exactly. and somehow the gods were angry at us which explained a failed crop or a flood or storm or whatever... and we had to give the gods offerings to assuage that anger. i think we are way past that now, dont you?

catefrances

brianlux wrote:

catefrances wrote:

it made sense to me too... tho i suspect its something thats always been inside and until the other day i never labelled it... or thought of it in those terms. it was just something that was.. is.. and always will be.
Nature has solid reasoning for doing all she does... she never acts arbitrarily... she exists to sustain life. and to me that is a major part of her truth, if not the entirety of it.

And she never, ever lies!

Oh, and I've heard tell she always bats last.

absolutely.

Cosmo

catefrances wrote:

exactly. and somehow the gods were angry at us which explained a failed crop or a flood or storm or whatever... and we had to give the gods offerings to assuage that anger. i think we are way past that now, dont you?

...
That's because the gods were man-made. Most things created by man has man's best interest at its focal point.
I believe if we get past this whole concept that we are special on some deity's eye and start seeing each other as we see ourselves... we might have a greater chance of fixing the things that seperate us.