Truth...

dancepartner

To redrock; Oh. Well, in that case, absolute truths would merely be verifiable proof. "what goes up - must come down". These things I leave to the realm of brianiacs who finally agree via indisputable proof-based assessing that "for every action, there is an equal and opposite".
But for mere average mortals, here's one of my absolute truths: "because none of us are all-knowing, and nobody gets to have a crystal ball, to confine absolute truths to only what's been proven would be, to say in the least — plum assed stupid. Already, how many rock solid proof-based theories have been shattered along this road mankind has traveled? As in, the world is square.
So! Back to absolute truths. I fervently believe these come from within. Does that help? :?

redrock

I guess it's just a question of what you consider absolute truth and relative truth, dancepartner. A truth from 'within' - that would be 'your' truth - not mine (or maybe it could be mine as well). As said at the beginning (and you mention), no one is omniscient. There are many theories of truth - these have been debated for centuries by very learned philosophers. Though it is generally (not to say absolutely) agreed that an absolute truth is one that is valid for all, all the time, with no counter argument - this, obviously within our limited parameters. A framework. We live, we die. Not all absolute truths are 'hard' truths either - truth can be quite abstract.

Can you give an example of one of your 'absolute' truths from within?

pandora

redrock wrote:

brianlux wrote:

For me it enough to experience life which is mysterious enough as it is. I don't feel any need or urge to look for an experience of something as intangible as the concept of God.

I have experienced fear but have no desire to live it

You mention "the revelation" and "the gift" and yet won't share those? Was that a limited time offer? (Sorry- I couldn't resist. )

If you don't let us in on the secret, we're not on the same journey, right?

To me, experiencing life as we live it, for the moment, is magnificent. Experiencing with the view of a 'something after', being only a belief, one would miss out on 'real life'/moment.

From a number of Pandora's posts, it would seem one needs to experience the contemplation of suicide, traumatic events, a light bulb 'shattering' on it's own (thus 'knowing' there is afterlife), etc. to be able to have god show them the way. More to show that a belief in god is not a truth for all but a relative truth for some.

'Everyone will know god one day'? Again, not a statement of truth but a personal belief (and a bit presumptuous too!)

My choice to stay here for my children when I was planning to leave this world has
very little to do with the outcome of knowing God and where I am today.
It is the events 3 years later and to this day that is the catalyst.

The light bulb shattering has nothing to do with my knowing there is a journey on for us all ...
this I learned far prior but seeing the funeral directors face was priceless
it was a strange phenomenon and if you knew my sister it made even more meaningful ...
yet of course explainable in logic.

Could your logic hold you so very tightly in place? Always applying proof.
The fact you think someone must experience what I have
you reveal this in your thinking.
Like someone needs A,B,C before they can get to D and this is set in stone.
Everyone makes their own choices walks their own path.

As far as living in the moment, there is no appreciation like that of knowing God.
Each moment is part of the big picture of life and beyond.

pandora

riotgrl wrote:

redrock, I really like what you have to say about experiencing life as we live it, for the moment. I have struggled with that "revelation" my entire life. I completely understand what some on this thread believe by having faith in god because it is something that I have contemplated my entire life. I always felt out of step with my family because they were so firm in their faith about the existence and divinity of god whereas I could never, even as a child, reconcile this belief, this faith, to what I knew. I spent many years believing there was something wrong with me because I didn't "know" of god in the same way they did - through organized religion. I was told over and over that all I had to do was have faith and I did but I couldn't see god in the same way they did. I've spent the last 20 years of my life reading and studying and discussing to understand and I finally feel at peace that while god may or may not exist that I do not have to believe any certain thing about god that I can feel and see and understand nature and that I can figure out my own place on earth without someone or something else telling me what my experiences and beliefs should be. Now that has truly been liberating for me

Funny my experience opposite but felt remarkably the same in outcome.
I had no religion, no expectations of me as a child to believe. I did not.
I read a bit about religions and found nothing I could agree with.
I was a proclaimed atheist from youth.
Then events out of my control changed that when I was forty.
Events that changed not only beliefs but who I am and what I know.
This was incredibly liberating and fulfilling.

redrock

Too many times you have insinuated that 'we' have not had the life experiences that you had, not walked in your shoes, etc. and thus cannot 'know' until we do. So I guess it wasn't too unreasonable to think that if one did, one would be 'open' and be enlightened with knowledge and absolute truth on this matter. That's all. Just an observation. Doesn't really require debate.

pandora wrote:

Could your logic hold you so very tightly in place? .

Just as much as you insist that logic/rationalisation holds people in place, curb/inhibits them, do not allow them to 'experience' and know, etc., one can argue that your belief that you firmly pass as ultimate knowledge and absolute truth has the same limiting capabilities.

Cosmo

pandora wrote:

I did not say anyone needs to do the exercise to know God.
I said it can break barriers and help one to feel God.
Welcome God into your life.
This very necessary for those who do not connect with religion.
People of religion are already open to possibilities of unexplained phenomenon/
miracles.
The exercise is a way of committing to finding God...
This is the goal. Its very easy to say one is seeking God without realizing they sabotage
their own search with denial and skepticism.
This exercise I did not know 20 years ago. Would I have tried it?
Yes, what would I have had to lose?
There are discoveries waiting to be made.

...
Editorial commentary: **SIGH** Again.. I had to dump all of your predictable mis-conceptions of who I am and what I seek. What is left are the only remnants based on the topic of your 'exercise'. I ask for clarification and I mostly get harsh attacks on my character and my motives. which really do not bother me because i really don't care what people I don't care about say about me.
...
Topic: You originally said that in order to know God... as you claim to know... Your instructions say the the first step I need to do is 'Imagine God'.
So, I have to ask... if I do so... will I see the same God you imagine? That is the only way to prove that your God is THE One and Only God. If I imagine God as a talking cat that wears a business suit and a bola tie and yellow Crocs... that is God?
I am NOT looking for YOUR God... I am looking for THE God. Not the God of any religion... the God of everything and everyone.

pandora

redrock wrote:

Too many times you have insinuated that 'we' have not had the life experiences that you had, not walked in your shoes, etc. and thus cannot 'know' until we do. So I guess it wasn't too unreasonable to think that if one did, one would be 'open' and be enlightened with knowledge and absolute truth on this matter. That's all. Just an observation. Doesn't really require debate.

I know this is what you hear. I understand.
Kind of shows how well people listen ...

Cosmo

pandora wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

Another side topic on logic, truth and God:
I have had a few people come to me with this logical advice as you why it is better to believe in God, than to not believe in God.
+ is good
- is bad
0 is null
---
+ You believe is God and God exists. Go to Heaven.
- You do not believe in God and God exists. Go to Hell.
+ You believe in God and God does not exist. But, your belief in God has pulled you through tough time in life.
0 You do not believe in God and God does not exist. You were right, so what?
---
Totals:
Believe in God = + +
Not believe in God = - 0
Therefore, believing in God is good.
...
To which I ask, 'So... belief in God... to cover my ass, 'just in case' He exists... is good? How does God feel about that? (if He exists)".

Is this based in religion again? Heaven Hell etc...

There is no good and bad to this. Everyone will know God one day.
Am I saying everyone should believe this? No. Some do, some don't, some pretend, some don't care.
We are free to make our choices on our paths.

...
This is simply an example I provided when I speak to my Christian friends. And last I heard, Christianity was still a religion.

pandora

Cosmo wrote:

pandora wrote:

I did not say anyone needs to do the exercise to know God.
I said it can break barriers and help one to feel God.
Welcome God into your life.
This very necessary for those who do not connect with religion.
People of religion are already open to possibilities of unexplained phenomenon/
miracles.
The exercise is a way of committing to finding God...
This is the goal. Its very easy to say one is seeking God without realizing they sabotage
their own search with denial and skepticism.
This exercise I did not know 20 years ago. Would I have tried it?
Yes, what would I have had to lose?
There are discoveries waiting to be made.

...
Editorial commentary: **SIGH** Again.. I had to dump all of your predictable mis-conceptions of who I am and what I seek. What is left are the only remnants based on the topic of your 'exercise'. I ask for clarification and I mostly get harsh attacks on my character and my motives. which really do not bother me because i really don't care what people I don't care about say about me.
...
Topic: You originally said that in order to know God... as you claim to know... Your instructions say the the first step I need to do is 'Imagine God'.
So, I have to ask... if I do so... will I see the same God you imagine? That is the only way to prove that your God is THE One and Only God. If I imagine God as a talking cat that wears a business suit and a bola tie and yellow Crocs... that is God?
I am NOT looking for YOUR God... I am looking for THE God. Not the God of any religion... the God of everything and everyone.

Just try the exercise ...
find pleasure in feeling God with you then work on the rest in time.
You want something with no giving on your part.
Give a little and see what you get.

Cosmo

pandora wrote:

Just try the exercise ...
find pleasure in feeling God with you then work on the rest in time.
Give a little and see what you get.

...
HOW? How can I try the exercise.. if you will not explain it?
You say, 'Imagine God'. I don't want God to be based upon my own imagination... which differs from your imagination. Unless you and I and everyone in the world share the same imagination, we will all see different Gods.
That very process is how religions are formed... Man, imaginning God the way they would like to see Him. The founders of Judaism and the Christianity and Islam... and you. In every instance, God is based upon the imaginary version created by Mankind... and you. you see God as you wish to see Him. I want to see God as He is... not how I imagine he would be.
...
And just a clue: Imagination exists in the mind and requires the application of thought processes.

Cosmo

redrock wrote:

To me, experiencing life as we live it, for the moment, is magnificent. Experiencing with the view of a 'something after', being only a belief, one would miss out on 'real life'/moment.

From a number of Pandora's posts, it would seem one needs to experience the contemplation of suicide, traumatic events, a light bulb 'shattering' on it's own (thus 'knowing' there is afterlife), etc. to be able to have god show them the way. More to show that a belief in god is not a truth for all but a relative truth for some.

'Everyone will know god one day'? Again, not a statement of truth but a personal belief (and a bit presumptuous too!)

...
Exactly.
That is why I accept death and part of my life. I do not tempt death, nor do I try to bring it upon me. I know it is out there and death will eventually find me.
So... I LIVE. I cherish the day and everything it brings to me.
The other day, i walked to the Subway for lunch to take back to my desk. On the way back to work (it is about a 2.5 mile round trip) I walked along the street, a city street with minimal traffic. As I walked, a yellow butterfly fluttered along side me... keeping pace. We kept the same pace for about a mile or so until she turned to cross my path and head over to the golf course.
I liked that. I knew it didn't mean anything or answer any of my questions on life and that is was mere coincidence that we both happened to be headed in the same direction at the same time for a brief period. I also know that the butterfly was probably oblivious to my being there and was just looking for something to eat. Nothing Earth shattering... just two lives... under the Sun... out for lunch.
Those are little things in life I tend to take note of.

markin ball

The truth is unknowable. It exists, I suppose, but it must be perceived by our faulty senses and interpreted by our faulty brains.

redrock

markin ball wrote:

The truth is unknowable. .

Which truth are you talking about? Metaphysical? The 'ultimate' truth? If so, I would agree. As we are not ominscient, we cannot have this ultimate truth as an universal absolute. Nothing stops us from seeking though - we gain a lot of 'personal truths' through our quests! Even if we know what one seeks is almost impossible, the journey can be rewarding.

markin ball

Cosmo wrote:

Another side topic on logic, truth and God:
I have had a few people come to me with this logical advice as you why it is better to believe in God, than to not believe in God.
+ is good
- is bad
0 is null
---
+ You believe is God and God exists. Go to Heaven.
- You do not believe in God and God exists. Go to Hell.
+ You believe in God and God does not exist. But, your belief in God has pulled you through tough time in life.
0 You do not believe in God and God does not exist. You were right, so what?
---
Totals:
Believe in God = + +
Not believe in God = - 0
Therefore, believing in God is good.
...
To which I ask, 'So... belief in God... to cover my ass, 'just in case' He exists... is good? How does God feel about that? (if He exists)".

What about all the other 3,000 or so gods mankind has recognized over the years? Do we have to worry what they think, too? There's just not enough hours in the day to keep all of them happy. Might as well not even try. So, long story short, the test is a crock.

markin ball

redrock wrote:

markin ball wrote:

The truth is unknowable. .

Which truth are you talking about? Metaphysical? The 'ultimate' truth? If so, I would agree. As we are not ominscient, we cannot have this ultimate truth as an universal absolute.

Physical truths, I guess. Abstract things, like math, that exist only in the mind may have truths. I think this was touched upon earlier in the thread, though.

Cosmo

markin ball wrote:

What about all the other 3,000 or so gods mankind has recognized over the years? Do we have to worry what they think, too? There's just not enough hours in the day to keep all of them happy. Might as well not even try. So, long story short, the test is a crock.

...
That's also what I think. It's not even in the realm of being a test.
I believe it was concocted in a failed attempt to explain, in a logical maner, that it is better for me to believe in God, than to not believe in God.
If someone really does prescribe to this line of reasoning, it merely means that his belief is based upon covering his ass... just in case God does exist. To me... you should believe in God for reasons other than just hedging your bets.
...
Note: This must be being spread amongst the people somehow because I have heard this debate point several times from several different people in my lifetime. I don't know... is this something that is taught in Sunday school?

markin ball

Cosmo wrote:

markin ball wrote:

What about all the other 3,000 or so gods mankind has recognized over the years? Do we have to worry what they think, too? There's just not enough hours in the day to keep all of them happy. Might as well not even try. So, long story short, the test is a crock.

...
That's also what I think. It's not even in the realm of being a test.
I believe it was concocted in a failed attempt to explain, in a logical maner, that it is better for me to believe in God, than to not believe in God.
If someone really does prescribe to this line of reasoning, it merely means that his belief is based upon covering his ass... just in case God does exist. To me... you should believe in God for reasons other than just hedging your bets.
...
Note: This must be being spread amongst the people somehow because I have heard this debate point several times from several different people in my lifetime. I don't know... is this something that is taught in Sunday school?

There's nothing new under the sun, that's for sure. Its not like any of us are breaking any new ground here, philosophically speaking. Smarter people than us have been thinking about these things since the dawn of time.

Jeanwah

So, because this thread makes me somewhat dizzy (am I the only one?), I can't help but attribute the word truth to the word reality. I mean, outside of absolute truths, wouldn't one say that any relative truth is just one's reality? Sorry, I'm slow at following this thread especially around the God argument that continues to go on...

Cosmo

markin ball wrote:

There's nothing new under the sun, that's for sure. Its not like any of us are breaking any new ground here, philosophically speaking. Smarter people than us have been thinking about these things since the dawn of time.

...
I understand that... but, personally, there are things that I wonder about... other than my mundane existance in the modern world. Keeps me thinking. Where thinking, in my opinion, is good thing.

markin ball

Cosmo wrote:

markin ball wrote:

There's nothing new under the sun, that's for sure. Its not like any of us are breaking any new ground here, philosophically speaking. Smarter people than us have been thinking about these things since the dawn of time.

...
I understand that... but, personally, there are things that I wonder about... other than my mundane existance in the modern world. Keeps me thinking. Where thinking, in my opinion, is good thing.

True dat!