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Truth...

CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
edited December 2012 in A Moving Train
A Friend once asked me, "Philosophers have discussed the concept of truth for centuries without reaching much of a consensus (so many different theories).
What makes a 'truth' a truth?
As you say, yours is yours, mine is mine.
Omniscience does not exist. And that's the truth!"
...
To which I reply...
It all depends upon which 'truth' you are talking about.
There are relative truths... to me... the truth is that the Sun will set beyond the Pacific Ocean because I live on the West Coast. To my friend in Tucson, her Sun sets over the Western desert sands. To my friend in Scandinavia... there are days when the Sun Never sets. So, the truth of where the Sun sets is relative to where you are.
Then, There is the absolute truth... 1 plus 1 equals 2, for example, is a true statement that cannot be argued.
Other absolute truths that cannot be argued are things such as death. We are all going to die... I am... you are ... my cat is... it is just a fact of life. We can all argue about an existance that lies beyond our Earthly mortality, but it does not negate the fact that we are going to die.
Which is not such a bad thing... it forces us to LIVE. To enjoy one of the only other truths we know... i am here... right now... enjoy that fact.
And when it is our time to die... we will at least, pick up another truth... is there life after death... or is there not? Afterlife? Void? We will know for sure.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    edited November 2012
    the truth of where the sun sets is.. it sets. the details are irrelevant. they dont change where the sun sets. tho when you think about it, the sun doesnt really set, our patch of earth just turns its back on it. the sun is always in the sky, we just cant always see it cause were 'around the corner'. ;)8-)
    Post edited by catefrances on
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • CAVSTARR313CAVSTARR313 Posts: 8,756
    Math is truth
    None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe that they are free.
    Abrn Hlls '98 - Clarkston 2 '03 - Grd Rpds '06 - Abrn Hlls '06 - Clvd '10 - PJ20 - Berlin 1+2 '12 - Wrigley '13 - Pitt '13- buff '13- Philly 1+2 '13 - Seattle '13
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    catefrances wrote:
    the truth of where the sun sets is.. it sets in the western sky. the details are irrelevant. they dont change where the sun sets. tho when you think about it, the sun doesnt really set, our patch of earth just turns its back on it. the sun is always in the sky, we just cant always see it cause were 'around the corner'. ;)8-)
    ...
    Yes.. that is true... the Sun does not acutally set. It appears to set as our position on the planet rotates away from it's relative position in the sky.
    So, in order to make my statement about the Sun setting over the Pacific... I'd have to say, "The truth is, The Sun appears to pass beyond the Western horizon as the planet rotates in a counter-clockwise direction when oriented above the Northern pole."
    ...
    The thing is... there are truths and there are non-truths. That can be applied in many differing fields... such as art or religion or whatever. Like, there is no truth to which is the best Pearl Jam song of all time... because that is a subjective opinion. Just as what is the most beautiful painting or which religion is the true religion of God? It all depends on the subject (observer) not the object (song, painting, religion).
    That's not to say truths do not exist... they do. We find them in math and science... and they can exist in the realm outside of science. Afterlife or Void? God or no God? Each has a truth... problem being, we don't know which is true.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    Caveeze wrote:
    Math is truth
    ...
    One of the few places we can find Absolute Truths. Those statement that do not have an opposing side. There is no arguement that can nullify 1+1=2.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    Cosmo wrote:
    Caveeze wrote:
    Math is truth
    ...
    One of the few places we can find Absolute Truths. Those statement that do not have an opposing side. There is no arguement that can nullify 1+1=2.


    according to radiohead 2+2=5. :P 8-)
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    edited November 2012
    catefrances wrote:
    Cosmo wrote:
    Caveeze wrote:
    Math is truth
    ...
    One of the few places we can find Absolute Truths. Those statement that do not have an opposing side. There is no arguement that can nullify 1+1=2.


    according to radiohead 2+2=5. :P 8-)
    ...
    Here's a funny one:
    3 Pearl Jam fans arrive to a hotel to rent a room for the gig. The room costs $25.00 per night.
    The desk clerk decides to cheat them by telling them the room is $30.00 a night, so, each fan hands over a 10 dollar bill and head up to the room.
    After a few minutes... the clerk feels guilty because they were very nice people. He calls over the Bellboy and says, 'Here, I over billed those 3 nice people, so give them back this 5 dollar bill and apologise for me".
    The bellboy heads up to the room... but, decides he deserves a tip for doing this. He pockets the 5 and pulls 3 one dollars bills from his wallet and hands 1 dollar back to each person with apolgises for over billing them.
    ...
    NOW...
    Each fan had a 10 dollar bill when they first arrived... and now have a one dollar bill in hand. 10 - 1 = 9.
    They each spent 9 dollars, right?
    9 dollars per 3 Pearl Jam fans is 9 x 3 = 27.
    The bellboy pocketed 2 dolllars...
    27 + 2 = 29
    Where is the extra dollar?
    Post edited by Cosmo on
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    Here's a funny one:
    3 Pearl Jam fans arrive to a hotel to rent a room for the gig. The room costs $25.00 per night.
    The desk clerk decides to cheat them by telling them the room is $30.00 a night, so, each fan hands over a 10 dollar bill and head up to the room.
    After a few minutes... the clerk feels guilty because they were very nice people. He calls over the Bellboy and says, 'Here, I over billed those 3 nice people, so give them back this 5 dollar bill and apologise for me".
    The bellboy heads up to the room... but, decides he deserves a tip for doing this. He pockets the 5 and pulls 3 one dollars bills and hands one dollar back to each person with apolgise for over billing them.
    ...
    NOW...
    Each fan had a 10 dollar bill when they first arrived... and now have a one dollar bill in hand. 10 - 1 = 9.
    They each spent 9 dollars, right?
    9 dollars per 3 Pearl Jam fans is 9 x 3 = 27.
    The bellboy pocketed 2 dolllars...
    27 + 2 = 29
    Where is the extra dollar?

    the clerk has it.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • CAVSTARR313CAVSTARR313 Posts: 8,756
    each fan actually paid 9.333333

    the other dollar is absorbed by the 2 dollars not split 3 ways..

    good one!!
    None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe that they are free.
    Abrn Hlls '98 - Clarkston 2 '03 - Grd Rpds '06 - Abrn Hlls '06 - Clvd '10 - PJ20 - Berlin 1+2 '12 - Wrigley '13 - Pitt '13- buff '13- Philly 1+2 '13 - Seattle '13
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,088
    I think there are easily accepted truths (only a comedian or magician would argue 1+1 does not = 2) and difficult truths. The difficult truths are the ones we spend the most time denying, falsifying or hiding from... but more often that not they make themselves self evident when it is too late. What that song about keeping one step ahead?
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.” Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
    Democracy Dies in Darkness- Washington Post













  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Caveeze wrote:
    Math is truth

    So are ingrowing toe-nails, dollar bills, and eggs.

    So what?


    Do you think rationality - including mathematics - encompasses the whole spectrum and potentiality of human consciousness?
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    edited November 2012
    Cosmo wrote:
    Caveeze wrote:
    Math is truth
    ...
    One of the few places we can find Absolute Truths. Those statement that do not have an opposing side. There is no arguement that can nullify 1+1=2.

    I argue that 1+1=10 and that is the truth. Or rather 'a' truth. Any 'truth' needs to be qualified before being called such. As with the example of the sun setting or even dying.

    1+1=2 in the decimal system
    1+1=10 in the binary system

    I don't believe that, with the current state of our knowledge (or lack thereof), absolute universal truth can be/be understood (if my belief is wrong and it does exist).
    Post edited by redrock on
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    truth is found in the heart we all know it
  • keeponrockinkeeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    pandora wrote:
    truth is found in the heart we all know it
    But that truth is not absolute.

    The 9/11 hijackers had found 'truth' in their heart.
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    keeponrockin wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    truth is found in the heart we all know it
    But that truth is not absolute.

    The 9/11 hijackers had found 'truth' in their heart.
    did they?
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,717
    pandora wrote:
    keeponrockin wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    truth is found in the heart we all know it
    But that truth is not absolute.

    The 9/11 hijackers had found 'truth' in their heart.
    did they?
    Who are you to say otherwise? For that matter , who are any of us to say what's truth for anyone else?
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • keeponrockinkeeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    pandora wrote:
    keeponrockin wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    truth is found in the heart we all know it
    But that truth is not absolute.

    The 9/11 hijackers had found 'truth' in their heart.
    did they?
    If they were willing to blow themselves up for it, I'd say so yes.
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    mickeyrat wrote:
    who are any of us to say what's truth for anyone else?
    OK, it's early and I've got the ol' end-of-the-week-brainfry, but I'd go with this.

    I think more often than not, truth is subjective - relative to our perception.

    And, for whatever reason, this Simon & Garfunkel lyric was the first thing that hit my mind upon reading this thread...

    And so you see I have come to doubt
    All that I once held as true
    I stand alone without beliefs
    The only truth I know is you
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    mickeyrat wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    keeponrockin wrote:
    But that truth is not absolute.

    The 9/11 hijackers had found 'truth' in their heart.
    did they?
    Who are you to say otherwise? For that matter , who are any of us to say what's truth for anyone else?

    [personal comment removed by Admin]

    I was not implying I new truth for anyone else but myself...
    I would say the other poster more implied they felt
    it was not truth they had in their hearts.
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    keeponrockin wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    keeponrockin wrote:
    But that truth is not absolute.

    The 9/11 hijackers had found 'truth' in their heart.
    did they?
    If they were willing to blow themselves up for it, I'd say so yes.
    so you are supporting that what one holds in their heart is truth no matter
    what that means to others?
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Caveeze wrote:
    Math is truth

    So are ingrowing toe-nails, dollar bills, and eggs.

    So what?


    Do you think rationality - including mathematics - encompasses the whole spectrum and potentiality of human consciousness?
    ...
    I believe the point is, there are certain truths (factual truths that are absolute and not applicable to subjective opinion) that can be found in math.
    In nature, we also find truths... such as all living things will die.
    In matters surrounding the human experience, truths are blurred because they are based, not always in fact, but formed by our individual experiences.
    I cannot speak for Caveeze, but what I stated, i use to support his/her viewpoint.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • keeponrockinkeeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    pandora wrote:
    so you are supporting that what one holds in their heart is truth no matter
    what that means to others?
    No. Just like when you hold God being truth in your heart doesn't make it truth.
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    redrock wrote:
    I argue that 1+1=10 and that is the truth. Or rather 'a' truth. Any 'truth' needs to be qualified before being called such. As with the example of the sun setting or even dying.

    1+1=2 in the decimal system
    1+1=10 in the binary system

    I don't believe that, with the current state of our knowledge (or lack thereof), absolute universal truth can be/be understood (if my belief is wrong and it does exist).
    ...
    That is true... when you identify the difference:
    Binary is a language so humans can give instructions to machines. 1 does not represent the number ONE... it represents ON, while ZERO represents OFF, from the machine's point of view. So, to the machine, its truth is 1 = bit is ON, 0 = bit is OFF.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    pandora wrote:
    truth is found in the heart we all know it
    ...
    That is a statement of opinion, not a statement of fact. It is more of a view point founded in emotion, rather than truth. The perfect example of what a relative/subjective truth is.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    That is true... when you identify the difference:

    Exactly - qualifying the truth. That can go for any truth. When I say something is MY truth, I have qualified it, therefore I believe I can assert it. Does it make it absolute for me? I guess it could be considered so at that point in time. Takes me back to the fact that, even in areas such as maths, I don't believe there can be an absolute, universal truth.
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    redrock wrote:
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    That is true... when you identify the difference:

    Exactly - qualifying the truth. That can go for any truth. When I say something is MY truth, I have qualified it, therefore I believe I can assert it. Does it make it absolute for me? I guess it could be considered so at that point in time. Takes me back to the fact that, even in areas such as maths, I don't believe there can be an absolute, universal truth.
    ...
    If that is a the case, then, if someone believes they can fly... does it mean that can actually fly?
    No.
    Their relative truth (what is truth to them) is they can fly.
    The absolute truth is... when they jump off that cliff... they will learn the absolute truth... that their relative truth was false.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • mikepegg44mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    pandora wrote:
    truth is found in the heart we all know it


    please clarify what you meant by this if you don't mind
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    edited November 2012
    Here is another geek scenario:
    A Biologist, a Physicist and a Mathematician are vacationing in Scotland. As they drive through the rolling green hills, they spot a heard of sheep, grazing on the grass. There are 10 sheep, 9 are white (sheep color) and one is black.
    The Biologist says, 'Observe. 10% of the sheep in Scotland are black".
    The Physicist says, 'No, of the 10 sheep on the hillside, one of them is black.'
    The Mathematician says, 'Actually... of the 10 specific sheep in the hillside in Scotland, 9 of them are white and one of them is black... on the sides that are facing us at this time.'
    ...
    Where the truth is, from our vantage point, we can make assessments. Those three travelers will not know the absolute truth until they see all sides of all 10 sheep.
    Right?
    Post edited by Cosmo on
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    truth is found in the heart we all know it
    please clarify what you meant by this if you don't mind
    ...
    My best guess... this person should never serve on a jury.
    (Note: Use this statement the next time a jury summons arrives in the mail)
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    Then I could argue back that this relative truth (though seemingly absolute to the believer) stays relative, even if he jumps off the cliff. Why? Because there are so many variables to this 'truth' that could potentially influence the outcome and we have been making assumptions as to the process (different for each of us). He may or may not be able to fly, depending on how he prepared for his 'jump'. For me, to be absolute, the outcome of this jump (ie not being able to fly) needs to be valid in all circumstances, for everyone, at all times. I guess one way to try and do this would be to minutely qualify this truth but, as I believe no one knows for sure what can happen (maybe a very strong gust of wind giving this person a 'boost' letting him soar a bit), one cannot have an absolute truth.

    The omniscience bit (that I don't believe in - my truth) comes into play....

    I may not be expressing my thoughts very clearly....
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    keeponrockin wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    so you are supporting that what one holds in their heart is truth no matter
    what that means to others?
    No. Just like when you hold God being truth in your heart doesn't make it truth.
    to you of course :fp:
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