Truth...

keeponrockin

pandora wrote:

so you are supporting that what one holds in their heart is truth no matter
what that means to others?

No. Just like when you hold God being truth in your heart doesn't make it truth.

Cosmo

redrock wrote:

I argue that 1+1=10 and that is the truth. Or rather 'a' truth. Any 'truth' needs to be qualified before being called such. As with the example of the sun setting or even dying.

1+1=2 in the decimal system
1+1=10 in the binary system

I don't believe that, with the current state of our knowledge (or lack thereof), absolute universal truth can be/be understood (if my belief is wrong and it does exist).

...
That is true... when you identify the difference:
Binary is a language so humans can give instructions to machines. 1 does not represent the number ONE... it represents ON, while ZERO represents OFF, from the machine's point of view. So, to the machine, its truth is 1 = bit is ON, 0 = bit is OFF.

Cosmo

pandora wrote:

truth is found in the heart we all know it

...
That is a statement of opinion, not a statement of fact. It is more of a view point founded in emotion, rather than truth. The perfect example of what a relative/subjective truth is.

redrock

Cosmo wrote:

...
That is true... when you identify the difference:

Exactly - qualifying the truth. That can go for any truth. When I say something is MY truth, I have qualified it, therefore I believe I can assert it. Does it make it absolute for me? I guess it could be considered so at that point in time. Takes me back to the fact that, even in areas such as maths, I don't believe there can be an absolute, universal truth.

Cosmo

redrock wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

...
That is true... when you identify the difference:

Exactly - qualifying the truth. That can go for any truth. When I say something is MY truth, I have qualified it, therefore I believe I can assert it. Does it make it absolute for me? I guess it could be considered so at that point in time. Takes me back to the fact that, even in areas such as maths, I don't believe there can be an absolute, universal truth.

...
If that is a the case, then, if someone believes they can fly... does it mean that can actually fly?
No.
Their relative truth (what is truth to them) is they can fly.
The absolute truth is... when they jump off that cliff... they will learn the absolute truth... that their relative truth was false.

mikepegg44

pandora wrote:

truth is found in the heart we all know it

please clarify what you meant by this if you don't mind

Cosmo

Here is another geek scenario:
A Biologist, a Physicist and a Mathematician are vacationing in Scotland. As they drive through the rolling green hills, they spot a heard of sheep, grazing on the grass. There are 10 sheep, 9 are white (sheep color) and one is black.
The Biologist says, 'Observe. 10% of the sheep in Scotland are black".
The Physicist says, 'No, of the 10 sheep on the hillside, one of them is black.'
The Mathematician says, 'Actually... of the 10 specific sheep in the hillside in Scotland, 9 of them are white and one of them is black... on the sides that are facing us at this time.'
...
Where the truth is, from our vantage point, we can make assessments. Those three travelers will not know the absolute truth until they see all sides of all 10 sheep.
Right?

Cosmo

mikepegg44 wrote:

pandora wrote:

truth is found in the heart we all know it

please clarify what you meant by this if you don't mind

...
My best guess... this person should never serve on a jury.
(Note: Use this statement the next time a jury summons arrives in the mail)

redrock

Then I could argue back that this relative truth (though seemingly absolute to the believer) stays relative, even if he jumps off the cliff. Why? Because there are so many variables to this 'truth' that could potentially influence the outcome and we have been making assumptions as to the process (different for each of us). He may or may not be able to fly, depending on how he prepared for his 'jump'. For me, to be absolute, the outcome of this jump (ie not being able to fly) needs to be valid in all circumstances, for everyone, at all times. I guess one way to try and do this would be to minutely qualify this truth but, as I believe no one knows for sure what can happen (maybe a very strong gust of wind giving this person a 'boost' letting him soar a bit), one cannot have an absolute truth.

The omniscience bit (that I don't believe in - my truth) comes into play....

I may not be expressing my thoughts very clearly....

pandora

keeponrockin wrote:

pandora wrote:

so you are supporting that what one holds in their heart is truth no matter
what that means to others?

No. Just like when you hold God being truth in your heart doesn't make it truth.

to you of course :fp:

hedonist

Cosmo wrote:

Here is another geek scenario:
A Biologist, a Physicist and a Mathematician are vacationing in Scotland. As they drive through the rolling green hills, they spot a heard of sheep, grazing on the grass. There are 10 sheep, 9 are white (sheep color) and one is black.
The Biologist says, 'Observe. 10% of the sheep in Scotland are black".
The Physicist says, 'No, of the 10 sheep on the hillside, one of them is black.'
The Mathematician says, 'Actually... of the 10 specific sheep in the hillside in Scotland, 9 of them are white and one of them is black... on the sides that are facing us at this time.'
...
Where the truth is, from our vantage point, we can make assessments. Those three travelers will not know the absolute truth until they see all sides of all 10 sheep.
Right?

Right...reminds me of the old story about the blind men and the elephant.

Cosmo

redrock wrote:

Then I could argue back that this relative truth (though seemingly absolute to the believer) stays relative, even if he jumps off the cliff. Why? Because there are so many variables to this 'truth' that could potentially influence the outcome and we have been making assumptions as to the process (different for each of us). He may or may not be able to fly, depending on how he prepared for his 'jump'. For me, to be absolute, the outcome of this jump (ie not being able to fly) needs to be valid in all circumstances, for everyone, at all times. I guess one way to try and do this would be to minutely qualify this truth but, as I believe no one knows for sure what can happen (maybe a very strong gust of wind giving this person a 'boost' letting him soar a bit), one cannot have an absolute truth.

The omniscience bit (that I don't believe in - my truth) comes into play....

I may not be expressing my thoughts very clearly....

...
I understand your point... but, I'm pretty sure... no... I'm absolutely sure that if one or one thousand people jump off the cliff (without the aid of fabricated wings, parachutes, etc...), 100% of them will crash onto the rocks below. It does not mean all will die... it means none of them will be able to fly back up the the safe ground at the top of the cliff.
...
Off-Topic Sidebar: That French guy that developed the glider suit... did not fly. He glided from a higher elevation to a lower elevation. He is basically a flying squierrel or lizard. All of which have to climb to a high point in order for their aerodynamics to take effect. When he takes off from the beach and lands atop the mountain... then, yeah... that would be a flying suit.

redrock

Cosmo wrote:

...
I understand your point... but, I'm pretty sure... no... I'm absolutely sure that if one or one thousand people jump off the cliff (without the aid of fabricated wings, parachutes, etc...), 100% of them will crash onto the rocks below. It does not mean all will die... it means none of them will be able to fly back up the the safe ground at the top of the cliff..

Indeed, that's what logic would tell you.

pandora

mikepegg44 wrote:

pandora wrote:

truth is found in the heart we all know it

please clarify what you meant by this if you don't mind

Truth belongs to the individual and is subjective of course.

Even on a jury one will take the facts and find what they believe to be true from them.
Facts can be misleading and take into account human error and motive in presenting them,
as in the case of court proceedings, many times a decision will come to gut feelings and heart.

As far as truth and the 911 hijackers which was a great point,
I will assume they felt truth in their hearts.
But upon passing into their afterlife will that be proven to be truth?
I think many here left in this world might think it was misguided indoctrination
but who would we be to say.

And the truth in science that is continually disproven?

We see truth is about as elusive as happiness
but individually some know the answer to it.

mikepegg44

pandora wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

pandora wrote:

truth is found in the heart we all know it

please clarify what you meant by this if you don't mind

Truth belongs to the individual and is subjective of course.

Even on a jury one will take the facts and find what they believe to be true from them.
Facts can be misleading and take into account human error and motive in presenting them,
as in the case of court proceedings, many times a decision will come to gut feelings and heart.

As far as truth and the 911 hijackers which was a great point,
I will assume they felt truth in their hearts.
But upon passing into their afterlife will that be proven to be truth?
I think many here left in this world might think it was misguided indoctrination
but who would we be to say.

And the truth in science that is continually disproven?

We see truth is about as elusive as happiness
but individually some know the answer to it.

that is what I thought you meant

thanks

pandora

mikepegg44 wrote:

pandora wrote:

Truth belongs to the individual and is subjective of course.

Even on a jury one will take the facts and find what they believe to be true from them.
Facts can be misleading and take into account human error and motive in presenting them,
as in the case of court proceedings, many times a decision will come to gut feelings and heart.

As far as truth and the 911 hijackers which was a great point,
I will assume they felt truth in their hearts.
But upon passing into their afterlife will that be proven to be truth?
I think many here left in this world might think it was misguided indoctrination
but who would we be to say.

And the truth in science that is continually disproven?

We see truth is about as elusive as happiness
but individually some know the answer to it.

that is what I thought you meant

thanks

welcome

keeponrockin

pandora wrote:

keeponrockin wrote:

pandora wrote:

so you are supporting that what one holds in their heart is truth no matter
what that means to others?

No. Just like when you hold God being truth in your heart doesn't make it truth.

to you of course :fp:

So truth is in the individual, regardless of what those outside them think, correct?

redrock

pandora wrote:

But upon passing into their afterlife will that be proven to be truth?

Of course it will be as Shahada is their truth.

pandora wrote:

I think many here left in this world might think it was misguided indoctrination.

Only if you do not subscribe to a similar truth.

But we are not really talking about indoctrination in this thread but 'truth', it's concept, it's philosphies/theories.

pandora

keeponrockin wrote:

pandora wrote:

keeponrockin wrote:

No. Just like when you hold God being truth in your heart doesn't make it truth.

to you of course :fp:

So truth is in the individual, regardless of what those outside them think, correct?

Yes of course, why you have your atheist beliefs and I have God right?
and the hijackers had theirs.

You find your truth there and speak freely about it as I find my truth with God
and speak freely about that.

Now one might think some truth we all agree on, those we all feel touch and see,
perceive the same. I guess like jumping off a cliff and not being able to fly.
Common sense.
So in our own common sense we find truth, and our common sense
is molded by experience and life's lessons. It is also based somewhat in heart
and personality. My common sense comes from a positive place in most cases
while others might be cynical. My heart rules with feeling while others stay in logic.

pandora

redrock wrote:

pandora wrote:

But upon passing into their afterlife will that be proven to be truth?

Of course it will be as Shahada is their truth.

pandora wrote:

I think many here left in this world might think it was misguided indoctrination.

Only if you do not subscribe to a similar truth.

But we are not really talking about indoctrination in this thread but 'truth', it's concept, it's philosphies/theories.

individual truth can found in indoctrination as you agree