Here is another geek scenario:
A Biologist, a Physicist and a Mathematician are vacationing in Scotland. As they drive through the rolling green hills, they spot a heard of sheep, grazing on the grass. There are 10 sheep, 9 are white (sheep color) and one is black.
The Biologist says, 'Observe. 10% of the sheep in Scotland are black".
The Physicist says, 'No, of the 10 sheep on the hillside, one of them is black.'
The Mathematician says, 'Actually... of the 10 specific sheep in the hillside in Scotland, 9 of them are white and one of them is black... on the sides that are facing us at this time.'
...
Where the truth is, from our vantage point, we can make assessments. Those three travelers will not know the absolute truth until they see all sides of all 10 sheep.
Right?
Right...reminds me of the old story about the blind men and the elephant.
Then I could argue back that this relative truth (though seemingly absolute to the believer) stays relative, even if he jumps off the cliff. Why? Because there are so many variables to this 'truth' that could potentially influence the outcome and we have been making assumptions as to the process (different for each of us). He may or may not be able to fly, depending on how he prepared for his 'jump'. For me, to be absolute, the outcome of this jump (ie not being able to fly) needs to be valid in all circumstances, for everyone, at all times. I guess one way to try and do this would be to minutely qualify this truth but, as I believe no one knows for sure what can happen (maybe a very strong gust of wind giving this person a 'boost' letting him soar a bit), one cannot have an absolute truth.
The omniscience bit (that I don't believe in - my truth) comes into play....
I may not be expressing my thoughts very clearly....
...
I understand your point... but, I'm pretty sure... no... I'm absolutely sure that if one or one thousand people jump off the cliff (without the aid of fabricated wings, parachutes, etc...), 100% of them will crash onto the rocks below. It does not mean all will die... it means none of them will be able to fly back up the the safe ground at the top of the cliff.
...
Off-Topic Sidebar: That French guy that developed the glider suit... did not fly. He glided from a higher elevation to a lower elevation. He is basically a flying squierrel or lizard. All of which have to climb to a high point in order for their aerodynamics to take effect. When he takes off from the beach and lands atop the mountain... then, yeah... that would be a flying suit.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
I understand your point... but, I'm pretty sure... no... I'm absolutely sure that if one or one thousand people jump off the cliff (without the aid of fabricated wings, parachutes, etc...), 100% of them will crash onto the rocks below. It does not mean all will die... it means none of them will be able to fly back up the the safe ground at the top of the cliff..
please clarify what you meant by this if you don't mind
Truth belongs to the individual and is subjective of course.
Even on a jury one will take the facts and find what they believe to be true from them.
Facts can be misleading and take into account human error and motive in presenting them,
as in the case of court proceedings, many times a decision will come to gut feelings and heart.
As far as truth and the 911 hijackers which was a great point,
I will assume they felt truth in their hearts.
But upon passing into their afterlife will that be proven to be truth?
I think many here left in this world might think it was misguided indoctrination
but who would we be to say.
And the truth in science that is continually disproven?
We see truth is about as elusive as happiness
but individually some know the answer to it.
please clarify what you meant by this if you don't mind
Truth belongs to the individual and is subjective of course.
Even on a jury one will take the facts and find what they believe to be true from them.
Facts can be misleading and take into account human error and motive in presenting them,
as in the case of court proceedings, many times a decision will come to gut feelings and heart.
As far as truth and the 911 hijackers which was a great point,
I will assume they felt truth in their hearts.
But upon passing into their afterlife will that be proven to be truth?
I think many here left in this world might think it was misguided indoctrination
but who would we be to say.
And the truth in science that is continually disproven?
We see truth is about as elusive as happiness
but individually some know the answer to it.
that is what I thought you meant
thanks
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Truth belongs to the individual and is subjective of course.
Even on a jury one will take the facts and find what they believe to be true from them.
Facts can be misleading and take into account human error and motive in presenting them,
as in the case of court proceedings, many times a decision will come to gut feelings and heart.
As far as truth and the 911 hijackers which was a great point,
I will assume they felt truth in their hearts.
But upon passing into their afterlife will that be proven to be truth?
I think many here left in this world might think it was misguided indoctrination
but who would we be to say.
And the truth in science that is continually disproven?
We see truth is about as elusive as happiness
but individually some know the answer to it.
so you are supporting that what one holds in their heart is truth no matter
what that means to others?
No. Just like when you hold God being truth in your heart doesn't make it truth.
to you of course :fp:
So truth is in the individual, regardless of what those outside them think, correct?
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
No. Just like when you hold God being truth in your heart doesn't make it truth.
to you of course :fp:
So truth is in the individual, regardless of what those outside them think, correct?
Yes of course, why you have your atheist beliefs and I have God right?
and the hijackers had theirs.
You find your truth there and speak freely about it as I find my truth with God
and speak freely about that.
Now one might think some truth we all agree on, those we all feel touch and see,
perceive the same. I guess like jumping off a cliff and not being able to fly.
Common sense.
So in our own common sense we find truth, and our common sense
is molded by experience and life's lessons. It is also based somewhat in heart
and personality. My common sense comes from a positive place in most cases
while others might be cynical. My heart rules with feeling while others stay in logic.
...
I understand your point... but, I'm pretty sure... no... I'm absolutely sure that if one or one thousand people jump off the cliff (without the aid of fabricated wings, parachutes, etc...), 100% of them will crash onto the rocks below. It does not mean all will die... it means none of them will be able to fly back up the the safe ground at the top of the cliff..
Indeed, that's what logic would tell you.
...
Logic... thought processes... facts... those are the paths that lead to truth.
No matter how much a person believes they can fly... in an afterlife... in a religion... it does not mean it is true... until all the facts are in.
The only way to discover if there is an afterlife or not is to leave this life. There are two answers:
1. Yes. There is an afterlife... or...
2. No. there is not an afterlife.
The living will never be able to answer this question with truth on their side because no one has ever completely died... then, return to tell us what is on the other side.
All we are left with is belief founded upon emotion, not knowledge or truth.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
So truth is in the individual, regardless of what those outside them think, correct?
...
Belief is in the individual.
Dueling armies will both go onto the battlefiled BELIEVING God is on their side in order to make THEIR side the side that is supported by Divine Providence.
That is not truth.
The Absolute truth may be that God is on neither side of war and it is all Man's doing... which is what i believe. And i admit, i may be wrong in my belief.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Logic... thought processes... facts... those are the paths that lead to truth.
No matter how much a person believes they can fly... in an afterlife... in a religion... it does not mean it is true... until all the facts are in.
The only way to discover if there is an afterlife or not is to leave this life. There are two answers:
1. Yes. There is an afterlife... or...
2. No. there is not an afterlife.
The living will never be able to answer this question with truth on their side because no one has ever completely died... then, return to tell us what is on the other side.
All we are left with is belief founded upon emotion, not knowledge or truth.
Actually untrue again,
you have not experienced what others have so how could you possibly know another's truth?
Your mind has created walls to not allow you take the leap perhaps.
There is phenomenon you are missing out on with this mindset. If you are indeed a truth seeker
you can not have walls. And thats the truth
So in our own common sense we find truth, and our common sense
is molded by experience and life's lessons. It is also based somewhat in heart
and personality. My common sense comes from a positive place in most cases
while others might be cynical. My heart rules with feeling while others stay in logic.
...
So... are you telling us that you don't use your brain?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
So in our own common sense we find truth, and our common sense
is molded by experience and life's lessons. It is also based somewhat in heart
and personality. My common sense comes from a positive place in most cases
while others might be cynical. My heart rules with feeling while others stay in logic.
...
So... are you telling us that you don't use your brain?
I use it as much as my heart ...
Do you wish you could say you use your heart as much as your brain?
this is really the key to finding what you say you seek.
Actually untrue again,
you have not experienced what others have so how could you possibly know another's truth?
Your mind has created walls to not allow you take the leap perhaps.
There is phenomenon you are missing out on with this mindset. If you are indeed a truth seeker
you can not have walls. And thats the truth
...
Facts. Facts define truth.
Name one person... that dies... meaning dead as a doornail dead... no near-death experiences of clinically dead... but, dead dead... Brain function flat... heart stopped... breathing stopped... blood flow stopped... rolled into the morgue and left there for 3 days dead... that has come back to reveal the truth to us about the other side.
If so... What did this person reveal?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
So truth is in the individual, regardless of what those outside them think, correct?
...
Belief is in the individual.
Dueling armies will both go onto the battlefiled BELIEVING God is on their side in order to make THEIR side the side that is supported by Divine Providence.
That is not truth.
The Absolute truth may be that God is on neither side of war and it is all Man's doing... which is what i believe. And i admit, i may be wrong in my belief.
I agree with you, I'm just trying to understand Pandora.
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
So truth is in the individual, regardless of what those outside them think, correct?
...
Belief is in the individual.
Dueling armies will both go onto the battlefiled BELIEVING God is on their side in order to make THEIR side the side that is supported by Divine Providence.
That is not truth.
The Absolute truth may be that God is on neither side of war and it is all Man's doing... which is what i believe. And i admit, i may be wrong in my belief.
I agree with you, I'm just trying to understand Pandora.
...
Based upon what I have read... you apparently need to quit using your brain in order to do so.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Actually untrue again,
you have not experienced what others have so how could you possibly know another's truth?
Your mind has created walls to not allow you take the leap perhaps.
There is phenomenon you are missing out on with this mindset. If you are indeed a truth seeker
you can not have walls. And thats the truth
...
Facts. Facts define truth.
Name one person... that dies... meaning dead as a doornail dead... no near-death experiences of clinically dead... but, dead dead... Brain function flat... heart stopped... breathing stopped... blood flow stopped... rolled into the morgue and left there for 3 days dead... that has come back to reveal the truth to us about the other side.
If so... What did this person reveal?
You are looking for facts and proof to the afterlife? or are you looking to know God?
or both?
Actually untrue again,
you have not experienced what others have so how could you possibly know another's truth?
Your mind has created walls to not allow you take the leap perhaps.
There is phenomenon you are missing out on with this mindset. If you are indeed a truth seeker
you can not have walls. And thats the truth
...
Facts. Facts define truth.
Name one person... that dies... meaning dead as a doornail dead... no near-death experiences of clinically dead... but, dead dead... Brain function flat... heart stopped... breathing stopped... blood flow stopped... rolled into the morgue and left there for 3 days dead... that has come back to reveal the truth to us about the other side.
If so... What did this person reveal?
You are looking for facts and proof to the afterlife? or are you looking to know God?
or both?
...
You are the one that commented on the following being untrue: Question: Is there an afterlife? There are 2 possible answers:
1. Yes. There is an afterlife... or...
2. No. there is not an afterlife.
The living will never be able to answer this question with truth on their side because no one has ever completely died... then, return to tell us what is on the other side.
All we are left with is belief founded upon emotion, not knowledge or truth.
So... if this is untrue... what is true?
Who has come back from the dead (NOT near death/clinically dead, but DEAD dead) and what did they reveal?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Truth is an abstract concept which could be explored/investigated forever and a day. Though if I recall correctly from my days of philosophical study, the various theories do have fact as a basis for truth (except relativism I think). Some 'truths' being more factual than others.
Critical thinking, research, investigation lead to 'truth'. Belief is not truth but as the word says 'belief', though one may believe (that word again) it is so and make such claim.
Whilst I played devil's advocate regarding the guy who believed he can fly, it is a good example of this.
We all have our own 'truths' - but a 'universal' truth? Nope. We, as it stands now, do not know EVERYTHING. Once ALL mankind become omniscient, then we can claim to KNOW THE TRUTH. But what are the odds of that then?
Truth is an abstract concept which could be explored/investigated forever and a day. Though if I recall correctly from my days of philosophical study, the various theories do have fact as a basis for truth (except relativism I think). Some 'truths' being more factual than others.
Critical thinking, research, investigation lead to 'truth'. Belief is not truth but as the word says 'belief', though one may believe (that word again) it is so and make such claim.
Whilst I played devil's advocate regarding the guy who believed he can fly, it is a good example of this.
We all have our own 'truths' - but a 'universal' truth? Nope. We, as it stands now, do not know EVERYTHING. Once ALL mankind become omniscient, then we can claim to KNOW THE TRUTH. But what are the odds of that then?
...
Yes.. but, truths DO exist. The equation, 1 + 1 = 2, for example is an undeniable truth.
So it the fact that death is at the end of every life. Not talking about hypothetical after lives, life as we know in here on this planet at this time in its existance.
If those truths exist... then, so do other truths... such as the question, 'Does God Exist?' Yes or No. One of those reponses is true... but, which one?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
You are looking for facts and proof to the afterlife? or are you looking to know God?
or both?
...
You are the one that commented on the following being untrue: Question: Is there an afterlife? There are 2 possible answers:
1. Yes. There is an afterlife... or...
2. No. there is not an afterlife.
The living will never be able to answer this question with truth on their side because no one has ever completely died... then, return to tell us what is on the other side.
All we are left with is belief founded upon emotion, not knowledge or truth.
So... if this is untrue... what is true?
Who has come back from the dead (NOT near death/clinically dead, but DEAD dead) and what did they reveal?
Actually untrue again,
you have not experienced what others have so how could you possibly know another's truth?
Your mind has created walls to not allow you take the leap perhaps.
There is phenomenon you are missing out on with this mindset. If you are indeed a truth seeker
you can not have walls. And thats the truth
Your walls are showing again
I speak of individual life experiences that bring each their truth.
You say someone's truth is not truth unless it is fact. This is untrue.
Are you a truth seeker or a fact seeker? I have a feeling it is the latter.
It is known not all facts are proven trustworthy and some are downright disproven over time
what then?
Yet when one lives an experience from there comes truth.
Truth seekers are willing to live an experience and the truth is theirs alone.
Again do you want proof to the afterlife? or do you want to experience it?
Is is not in dying that we experience the afterlife it is in the proof we can live here.
Also, there is truth in just about everything... a murder case, for example. A dead body is found with a fatal gunshot wound. There is a truth to what happened. The dead person was a witness, but cannot tell us the truth. We have to rely on factual evidence that will direct us to the person or persons responsible... by investigation, fact finding, factual data, etc... We can, but don't always, come to the truth. That is because of the limits of facts and truths.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Yes.. but, truths DO exist. The equation, 1 + 1 = 2, for example is an undeniable truth.
So it the fact that death is at the end of every life. Not talking about hypothetical after lives, life as we know in here on this planet at this time in tis existance.
If those truths exist... then, so do other truths... such as the question, 'Does God Exist?' Yes or No. One of those reponses is true... but, which one?
I guess in a way, absolute truths (as opposed to relative), by removing any subjective element, have been agreed upon within a certain context. These truths can be demonstrated to be valid time and time again (again within the context and our knowledge). So yes, they exist.
Even certain things that can be measured/demonstrated have too many subjective elements to it to be able to have it as 'truth'. Very basic example is pain. Pain is truth - no doubt - measurable/demonstrable. I tell someone that getting a tattoo doesn't hurt. I been though it several times, no pain - my truth. That person gets a tattoo - same tattoo, same area of the body, same tattoo artist - it hurts like hell - pain. Their truth. Even something demonstrable becomes relative and an 'individual truth'.
Your walls are showing again
I speak of individual life experiences that bring each their truth.
You say someone's truth is not truth unless it is fact. This is untrue.
Are you a truth seeker or a fact seeker? I have a feeling it is the latter.
It is known not all facts are proven trustworthy and some are downright disproven over time
what then?
Yet when one lives an experience from there comes truth.
Truth seekers are willing to live an experience and the truth is theirs alone.
Again do you want proof to the afterlife? or do you want to experience it?
Is is not in dying that we experience the afterlife it is in the proof we can live here.
...
Again.. RELATIVE Truths... not ABSOLUTE Truths.
Your life experiences are relative to you... not to me or anyone else. What you believe to be true... isn't always the truth, even though you really, REALLY believe it is true.
And yes... i am looking for the truth... not your truth... THE truth.
And a known truth to me, based upon the factual data you have provided in your many, many post on the subject... sorry, but I'm am not going to find any truths from you. Lots of truthiness (yes, it's a real word, look it up)... but, no truths.
Post edited by Cosmo on
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Comments
I understand your point... but, I'm pretty sure... no... I'm absolutely sure that if one or one thousand people jump off the cliff (without the aid of fabricated wings, parachutes, etc...), 100% of them will crash onto the rocks below. It does not mean all will die... it means none of them will be able to fly back up the the safe ground at the top of the cliff.
...
Off-Topic Sidebar: That French guy that developed the glider suit... did not fly. He glided from a higher elevation to a lower elevation. He is basically a flying squierrel or lizard. All of which have to climb to a high point in order for their aerodynamics to take effect. When he takes off from the beach and lands atop the mountain... then, yeah... that would be a flying suit.
Hail, Hail!!!
Indeed, that's what logic would tell you.
Even on a jury one will take the facts and find what they believe to be true from them.
Facts can be misleading and take into account human error and motive in presenting them,
as in the case of court proceedings, many times a decision will come to gut feelings and heart.
As far as truth and the 911 hijackers which was a great point,
I will assume they felt truth in their hearts.
But upon passing into their afterlife will that be proven to be truth?
I think many here left in this world might think it was misguided indoctrination
but who would we be to say.
And the truth in science that is continually disproven?
We see truth is about as elusive as happiness
but individually some know the answer to it.
that is what I thought you meant
thanks
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Of course it will be as Shahada is their truth.
Only if you do not subscribe to a similar truth.
But we are not really talking about indoctrination in this thread but 'truth', it's concept, it's philosphies/theories.
and the hijackers had theirs.
You find your truth there and speak freely about it as I find my truth with God
and speak freely about that.
Now one might think some truth we all agree on, those we all feel touch and see,
perceive the same. I guess like jumping off a cliff and not being able to fly.
Common sense.
So in our own common sense we find truth, and our common sense
is molded by experience and life's lessons. It is also based somewhat in heart
and personality. My common sense comes from a positive place in most cases
while others might be cynical. My heart rules with feeling while others stay in logic.
Logic... thought processes... facts... those are the paths that lead to truth.
No matter how much a person believes they can fly... in an afterlife... in a religion... it does not mean it is true... until all the facts are in.
The only way to discover if there is an afterlife or not is to leave this life. There are two answers:
1. Yes. There is an afterlife... or...
2. No. there is not an afterlife.
The living will never be able to answer this question with truth on their side because no one has ever completely died... then, return to tell us what is on the other side.
All we are left with is belief founded upon emotion, not knowledge or truth.
Hail, Hail!!!
Belief is in the individual.
Dueling armies will both go onto the battlefiled BELIEVING God is on their side in order to make THEIR side the side that is supported by Divine Providence.
That is not truth.
The Absolute truth may be that God is on neither side of war and it is all Man's doing... which is what i believe. And i admit, i may be wrong in my belief.
Hail, Hail!!!
you have not experienced what others have so how could you possibly know another's truth?
Your mind has created walls to not allow you take the leap perhaps.
There is phenomenon you are missing out on with this mindset. If you are indeed a truth seeker
you can not have walls. And thats the truth
So... are you telling us that you don't use your brain?
Hail, Hail!!!
Do you wish you could say you use your heart as much as your brain?
this is really the key to finding what you say you seek.
Facts. Facts define truth.
Name one person... that dies... meaning dead as a doornail dead... no near-death experiences of clinically dead... but, dead dead... Brain function flat... heart stopped... breathing stopped... blood flow stopped... rolled into the morgue and left there for 3 days dead... that has come back to reveal the truth to us about the other side.
If so... What did this person reveal?
Hail, Hail!!!
You must obviously be on drugs to conjure up such a lot.
Hail, Hail!!!
Based upon what I have read... you apparently need to quit using your brain in order to do so.
Hail, Hail!!!
thank you
most especially in our subconscious
or both?
You are the one that commented on the following being untrue:
Question: Is there an afterlife? There are 2 possible answers:
1. Yes. There is an afterlife... or...
2. No. there is not an afterlife.
The living will never be able to answer this question with truth on their side because no one has ever completely died... then, return to tell us what is on the other side.
All we are left with is belief founded upon emotion, not knowledge or truth.
So... if this is untrue... what is true?
Who has come back from the dead (NOT near death/clinically dead, but DEAD dead) and what did they reveal?
Hail, Hail!!!
Truth is an abstract concept which could be explored/investigated forever and a day. Though if I recall correctly from my days of philosophical study, the various theories do have fact as a basis for truth (except relativism I think). Some 'truths' being more factual than others.
Critical thinking, research, investigation lead to 'truth'. Belief is not truth but as the word says 'belief', though one may believe (that word again) it is so and make such claim.
Whilst I played devil's advocate regarding the guy who believed he can fly, it is a good example of this.
We all have our own 'truths' - but a 'universal' truth? Nope. We, as it stands now, do not know EVERYTHING. Once ALL mankind become omniscient, then we can claim to KNOW THE TRUTH. But what are the odds of that then?
Yes.. but, truths DO exist. The equation, 1 + 1 = 2, for example is an undeniable truth.
So it the fact that death is at the end of every life. Not talking about hypothetical after lives, life as we know in here on this planet at this time in its existance.
If those truths exist... then, so do other truths... such as the question, 'Does God Exist?' Yes or No. One of those reponses is true... but, which one?
Hail, Hail!!!
Your walls are showing again
I speak of individual life experiences that bring each their truth.
You say someone's truth is not truth unless it is fact. This is untrue.
Are you a truth seeker or a fact seeker? I have a feeling it is the latter.
It is known not all facts are proven trustworthy and some are downright disproven over time
what then?
Yet when one lives an experience from there comes truth.
Truth seekers are willing to live an experience and the truth is theirs alone.
Again do you want proof to the afterlife? or do you want to experience it?
Is is not in dying that we experience the afterlife it is in the proof we can live here.
Hail, Hail!!!
I guess in a way, absolute truths (as opposed to relative), by removing any subjective element, have been agreed upon within a certain context. These truths can be demonstrated to be valid time and time again (again within the context and our knowledge). So yes, they exist.
Even certain things that can be measured/demonstrated have too many subjective elements to it to be able to have it as 'truth'. Very basic example is pain. Pain is truth - no doubt - measurable/demonstrable. I tell someone that getting a tattoo doesn't hurt. I been though it several times, no pain - my truth. That person gets a tattoo - same tattoo, same area of the body, same tattoo artist - it hurts like hell - pain. Their truth. Even something demonstrable becomes relative and an 'individual truth'.
Again.. RELATIVE Truths... not ABSOLUTE Truths.
Your life experiences are relative to you... not to me or anyone else. What you believe to be true... isn't always the truth, even though you really, REALLY believe it is true.
And yes... i am looking for the truth... not your truth... THE truth.
And a known truth to me, based upon the factual data you have provided in your many, many post on the subject... sorry, but I'm am not going to find any truths from you. Lots of truthiness (yes, it's a real word, look it up)... but, no truths.
Hail, Hail!!!