Chicago Public School Teachers on Strike...

Thirty Bills Unpaid

81 wrote:

we didn't have AC in my school...i don't remember it being much of an issue.

if the teachers weren't forced to pay union fee's, we could reduce salaries by $32M and the teacher wouldn't even notice....don't tell me it's their money to spend as they choose. they are forced to join the union, and we both know damn well, the union factors in thier cut when dealing with salaries.

i'd love to see the union financials to see where all those $'s are going. we never will tho. and yes, i understand the union has costs and what those costs are.

you obviously have no clue about corruption in chicago/IL. last two governors are in prison, a state rep is going to be joining them shortly. the list goes on and on.

So you want to roll back their wages and bust the union?

cincybearcat

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

In BC, over 80% of our teaching force are women now. Men can make more money right out of the gates doing a number of good jobs that require no education and offer great benefits.

This is off topic, but why can't women get these same jobs?

cincybearcat

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

81 wrote:

we didn't have AC in my school...i don't remember it being much of an issue.

if the teachers weren't forced to pay union fee's, we could reduce salaries by $32M and the teacher wouldn't even notice....don't tell me it's their money to spend as they choose. they are forced to join the union, and we both know damn well, the union factors in thier cut when dealing with salaries.

i'd love to see the union financials to see where all those $'s are going. we never will tho. and yes, i understand the union has costs and what those costs are.

you obviously have no clue about corruption in chicago/IL. last two governors are in prison, a state rep is going to be joining them shortly. the list goes on and on.

So you want to roll back their wages and bust the union?

Hahaha, that seems like not a very effective way. I say, let the teachers keep that $ if they ditch the union!!!

81

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

81 wrote:

we didn't have AC in my school...i don't remember it being much of an issue.

if the teachers weren't forced to pay union fee's, we could reduce salaries by $32M and the teacher wouldn't even notice....don't tell me it's their money to spend as they choose. they are forced to join the union, and we both know damn well, the union factors in thier cut when dealing with salaries.

i'd love to see the union financials to see where all those $'s are going. we never will tho. and yes, i understand the union has costs and what those costs are.

you obviously have no clue about corruption in chicago/IL. last two governors are in prison, a state rep is going to be joining them shortly. the list goes on and on.

So you want to roll back their wages and bust the union?

i would have zero problemm with that....or as the guy after you said, let the teachers keep the cash and ditch the union.

but sure, roll back the salaries...and put those $32M of tax payers dollars to work on something productive....not a corrupt union

Thirty Bills Unpaid

cincybearcat wrote:

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

In BC, over 80% of our teaching force are women now. Men can make more money right out of the gates doing a number of good jobs that require no education and offer great benefits.

This is off topic, but why can't women get these same jobs?

The jobs I was speaking of are in mines and mills- labourious jobs that are physically demanding. Some women do work these jobs and are good at their jobs, but the majority of people seeking such employment are men (for whatever reason).

inlet13

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

I'm not from the CPS. What I pointed out was reality. Is the money spent on university tuitions and lost from the opportunity to be employed during that time spent at school too difficult for you to comprehend? I wasn't complaining about it either. I pointed out that if that is the expectation... then people should be compensated for this.

I'm an economist and I teach opportunity cost. The concept is not too difficult for me to understand since I teach it every day. But, I'd say you'd don't quite comprehend the concept yourself. Please break down the situation in which an average teacher is losing "$300K" - exactly. I'm curious of your logic. Remember - opportunity cost means the best alternative forgone.

And if you find a way to do such are PhDs losing $1million or more according to your logic?

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

In BC, over 80% of our teaching force are women now. Men can make more money right out of the gates doing a number of good jobs that require no education and offer great benefits. The profession is no longer appealing to some who need a bit more motivation to commit themselves to pursuing a career in the field. This might be good, but I think it is bad. I'm not suggesting anything about women teachers, but I can say that strong male influences in the school system are a positive thing.

I don't care about BC - nor are we discussing it. So, I'm not sure how that is relevant whatsoever. But, even if it was relevant I highly doubt that men "with no education" can make more money right out of the gates than educators unless they are risking their lives. Since we like opportunity costs, how would that effect those jobs?

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

If you have a PhD... and I'm doubting this somewhat- or at a minimum wondering what it is- given your 'waah' comment, I would think you are making a generous wage and have a good lifestyle. Society needs educated people to lead us into the future. While I want blue collar workers to earn a very good living, I want- we need- people to do some of the things that require time at school. For their sacrifice... I want to reward them. So thank you for your sacrifice and I hope that PhD is helping us.

Thanks for the patronizing attitude towards my education level.

I have a PhD in economics. Just as an aside, this is considered one of the hardest subjects to study. Education is considered one of the easiest subjects to study. Just something to keep in mind.

Anyway, I do make decent money and I have a nice lifestyle. I'm not complaining. The "waah" comment was directed towards those "who are complaining" - CPS teachers in this case, or people defending them saying they had high education costs - like yourself.

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

By the way... I paid for my 2 undergraduate degrees and my masters degree by myself. No assistance from anyone.

Why anyone would get two undergrad degrees is beyond me. How exactly is that 2nd undergrad degree relevant whatsoever to opportunity cost? Seems to me, one could make the argument that was just a very poor economic decision.

But whatever - that's fantastic if you enjoyed doing paying for two degrees that pretty much do the same thing. I'd simply say - scholarships aren't a bad thing though.

Anywho - back to the subject.

Teachers are bitching about their wage/work conditions when they are making well above the mean salary, have off for two months each summer and work less hours than the average job. Claims like 'they paid $300K in opportunity cost' to try to rationalize their relatively high wages are silly.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

81 wrote:

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

81 wrote:

we didn't have AC in my school...i don't remember it being much of an issue.

if the teachers weren't forced to pay union fee's, we could reduce salaries by $32M and the teacher wouldn't even notice....don't tell me it's their money to spend as they choose. they are forced to join the union, and we both know damn well, the union factors in thier cut when dealing with salaries.

i'd love to see the union financials to see where all those $'s are going. we never will tho. and yes, i understand the union has costs and what those costs are.

you obviously have no clue about corruption in chicago/IL. last two governors are in prison, a state rep is going to be joining them shortly. the list goes on and on.

So you want to roll back their wages and bust the union?

i would have zero problemm with that....or as the guy after you said, let the teachers keep the cash and ditch the union.

but sure, roll back the salaries...and put those $32M of tax payers dollars to work on something productive....not a corrupt union

Friendly.

So, even though you said "No" to the 'watered down education system' that demands much less in terms of certification and compensates much less in terms of wages and benefits... you actually meant "Yes"?

81... you're a reasonable guy. I leave you to your attitude on this one and bear no judgement towards you. I would caution you to be careful for what you ask though. Recruting and retaining teachers is getting more difficult these days. This is a reality. If these aren't enough of a warning sign that the future of education might be in trouble... do we actually have to flounder before we make changes- or at least maintain- the institution a bit?

Most of these 'teachers' you have so much disdain for are great people. They are not the greedy, selfish, assholes some have painted them out to be. They want to do a good job and want a little respect for doing it. I've acknowledged problems with the union and I have acknowledged problems with holding performances accountable. You haven't even acknowledged in the slightest that a good teacher might be worth something.

81

where is my disdain for the teacher? i have no problem with the teacher as a profession or a person...i have a problem with the union wasting money and i have a problem with a group of people looking for more money out of system that is mired in debt.

whygohome

Let's not forget that the parents have a role in their children's education as well. Teachers have consistently had their responsibilities increased; they are now not only educators in a particular subject, but are now babysitters, disciplinarians, role models.

Having friends and family who are public school teachers, their first complaint about the job after the simple fact that the system needs serious reform is dealing with absentee and delusional parents.

These problems go beyond our education system; it is a cultural problem that begins in the home.
Tell your damn kids to turn off the idiot box/boob tube, get some exercise, and do their damn homework.

p.s. I just saw my best friend this past weekend. He teaches at a middle school in NC. This year, he has a class with 36 students. 36 students!!! Among those 36 students are kids with special needs. What kind of learning environment is this? Also, due to budget cuts, he has gone years without a cost of living raise, and still makes less than $45,000 dollars a year. How much does Snooki make? How much does an actor/actress who plays the role of a teacher in a film make? How much does Rush Limbaugh make?

God bless America

hedonist

cincybearcat wrote:

dimitrispearljam wrote:

these people create the society..these people take our kids,our nephews,our friends kids and put them out there..they create personalities,they create characters from zero,...

While I agree that teacher help....I'd say you seem to be describing parents in reality.

Still got a couple more pages left to read, but yes, I agree with this.

Of course our influences come from all around, but in the end, teachers are educators; it's not their place to guide or shape morality.

If anything, HOW they teach is a good window into character, fairness, discipline - but that should be a by-product of the actual lesson.

whygohome

hedonist wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

dimitrispearljam wrote:

these people create the society..these people take our kids,our nephews,our friends kids and put them out there..they create personalities,they create characters from zero,...

While I agree that teacher help....I'd say you seem to be describing parents in reality.

Still got a couple more pages left to read, but yes, I agree with this.

Of course our influences come from all around, but in the end, teachers are educators; it's not their place to guide or shape morality.

If anything, HOW they teach is a good window into character, fairness, discipline - but that should be a by-product of the actual lesson.

inlet13

whygohome wrote:

Let's not forget that the parents have a role in their children's education as well. Teachers have consistently had their responsibilities increased; they are now not only educators in a particular subject, but are now babysitters, disciplinarians, role models.

Having friends and family who are public school teachers, their first complaint about the job after the simple fact that the system needs serious reform is dealing with absentee and delusional parents.

These problems go beyond our education system; it is a cultural problem that begins in the home.
Tell your damn kids to turn off the idiot box/boob tube, get some exercise, and do their damn homework.

p.s. I just saw my best friend this past weekend. He teaches at a middle school in NC. This year, he has a class with 36 students. 36 students!!! Among those 36 students are kids with special needs. What kind of learning environment is this? Also, due to budget cuts, he has gone years without a cost of living raise, and still makes less than $45,000 dollars a year. How much does Snooki make? How much does an actor/actress who plays the role of a teacher in a film make? How much does Rush Limbaugh make?

God bless America

I grew up in schools with classes of 40 students. Not saying that was good - but, I'm not sure it's that odd. Don't get me wrong - I'm sure it's harder for the teacher, and I don't deny it would be better to have small class sizes, but we're in a recession and most gov't are cash strapped - as are the US citizens. It's nice to have jobs at all.

The only way to get class sizes smaller is more teachers, but the money's not there. If there's a set pot of money for salary, etc... then decreasing class size would involve increased hiring - increased costs... but, since teachers wont budge on lower salary (costs)... it just won't work - the math doesn't work. These facts are important. So, what do they want consistent salaries or more teachers?

Couple other things to note - $45K is higher than the average salary in the US. Also, reality stars, actresses or talk show hosts don't get paid with tax money.

elvistheking44

As a parent of a child in CPS system I must say its starting to boil over in our community. Parents are getting fed up and its only day 3. Karen Lewis has had her 15 minutes of fame and its time to get to serious business, not parade through the streets of Chicago and cause massive disruptions.

If this goes on for weeks I better see some serious fucking results in the classroom......

cincybearcat

ofthegirl99 wrote:

As a parent of a child in CPS system I must say its starting to boil over in our community. Parents are getting fed up and its only day 3. Karen Lewis has had her 15 minutes of fame and its time to get to serious business, not parade through the streets of Chicago and cause massive disruptions.

If this goes on for weeks I better see some serious fucking results in the classroom......

Oh no, you can;t judge a teachers effectiveness I've been told....

81

cincybearcat wrote:

Oh no, you can;t judge a teachers effectiveness I've been told....

that's what the teachers like to tell you.

SPEEDY MCCREADY

ofthegirl99 wrote:

As a parent of a child in CPS system I must say its starting to boil over in our community. Parents are getting fed up and its only day 3. Karen Lewis has had her 15 minutes of fame and its time to get to serious business, not parade through the streets of Chicago and cause massive disruptions.

If this goes on for weeks I better see some serious fucking results in the classroom......

Ole Karen knows EXACTLY when the cameras are on, doesnt she. I picture her envisioning a reality show, and maybe a talk show. For some reason I believe she pictures herself as the next Oprah.

whygohome

inlet13 wrote:

whygohome wrote:

Let's not forget that the parents have a role in their children's education as well. Teachers have consistently had their responsibilities increased; they are now not only educators in a particular subject, but are now babysitters, disciplinarians, role models.

Having friends and family who are public school teachers, their first complaint about the job after the simple fact that the system needs serious reform is dealing with absentee and delusional parents.

These problems go beyond our education system; it is a cultural problem that begins in the home.
Tell your damn kids to turn off the idiot box/boob tube, get some exercise, and do their damn homework.

p.s. I just saw my best friend this past weekend. He teaches at a middle school in NC. This year, he has a class with 36 students. 36 students!!! Among those 36 students are kids with special needs. What kind of learning environment is this? Also, due to budget cuts, he has gone years without a cost of living raise, and still makes less than $45,000 dollars a year. How much does Snooki make? How much does an actor/actress who plays the role of a teacher in a film make? How much does Rush Limbaugh make?

God bless America

I grew up in schools with classes of 40 students. Not saying that was good - but, I'm not sure it's that odd. Don't get me wrong - I'm sure it's harder for the teacher, and I don't deny it would be better to have small class sizes, but we're in a recession and most gov't are cash strapped - as are the US citizens. It's nice to have jobs at all.

The only way to get class sizes smaller is more teachers, but the money's not there. If there's a set pot of money for salary, etc... then decreasing class size would involve increased hiring - increased costs... but, since teachers wont budge on lower salary (costs)... it just won't work - the math doesn't work. These facts are important. So, what do they want consistent salaries or more teachers?

Couple other things to note - $45K is higher than the average salary in the US. Also, reality stars, actresses or talk show hosts don't get paid with tax money.

It has nothing to do with being odd; it is simply not conducive to a good education.

I realize the costs with opening new schools, lowering class sizes, etc. My point is that we need to get our priorities straight. We waste a lot of money in this country, no? We give oil companies billions of dollars in subsidies.

The average salary in the U.S. is roughly $47,000. So, you are correct ($2,000 is not that off).
And yes, I realize that reality TV starts do not get paid by tax dollars. Everyone knows that. Again, it comes down to priorities and an imbalanced system. I feel that those who play a very important role in shaping our society--teachers, policeman, firefighters, nurses, EMTs, etc--should be taken care off.
What is the incentive these days to enter these professions? How many Ivy Leaguers enter these professions? Why not go to Wall St. or the banking/financial arenas?

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Inlet...

In order to teach elementary school i needed to have a bachelor degree in a specialty area and a 2 year bachelor of education degree (hence the six years i spoke of).

I seriously have no more enthusiasm for this thread. If you read most of my posts, i agreed with strike opponents that there was much to be disappointed about regarding the situation. From afar, and not as removed from the situation as you have suggested, i felt the need to speak on behalf of a group of people that seemed to be taking quite a few unnecessary shots.

Sorry if you feel it wasn't my place to do so.

inlet13

whygohome wrote:

It has nothing to do with being odd; it is simply not conducive to a good education.

I think it's fine, personally. Would we prefer smaller classes? Sure. But, can we afford it? No.

whygohome wrote:

I realize the costs with opening new schools, lowering class sizes, etc. My point is that we need to get our priorities straight. We waste a lot of money in this country, no? We give oil companies billions of dollars in subsidies.

I don't think anyone's arguing that our government has it's priorities straight. But, I think I'd say - the schools don't either. Moreover, the teachers, or at least the unions, don't. They make good money. It's never enough.

We don't all agree on where our money should be directed and what should be cut. Most of us, however, are saying that (given our debt and economic problems) "expansions" in any public area of spending shouldn't occur right now.

whygohome wrote:

The average salary in the U.S. is roughly $47,000. So, you are correct ($2,000 is not that off).

North Carolina's average is almost certainly lower than the national average, I would assume. Your buddy is doing arguably better than average for his state. Plus, he doesn't work for two months each summer and has nice retirement plan. He could bartend over the summer and make $60K easy. Maybe he does.

whygohome wrote:

And yes, I realize that reality TV starts do not get paid by tax dollars. Everyone knows that. Again, it comes down to priorities and an imbalanced system. I feel that those who play a very important role in shaping our society--teachers, policeman, firefighters, nurses, EMTs, etc--should be taken care off.

TV stars make the money they make because people want them to. There's a demand for that smut. Why? Who knows.

As for the public employees, I think the common response is - they are taken care of. In fact, the arguably are better taken care of than the average private sector employee when taking into account salary, benefits, lifestyle and pension/retirement.

whygohome wrote:

What is the incentive these days to enter these professions? How many Ivy Leaguers enter these professions? Why not go to Wall St. or the banking/financial arenas?

The incentive is a higher than average regional salary, months off at a time and a nice lifestyle doing something one believes that matters.

Wall Streeters, meanwhile may also earn a higher than average salary but they don't get months off at a time. Their career is somewhat shaky right now with the market volatility and their lifestyle (at least from the friends that I've seen go that route) sucks. 15 hour days all year round is not fun. I would want no part in going into working on wall street, personally.

inlet13

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

Inlet...

In order to teach elementary school i needed to have a bachelor degree in a specialty area and a 2 year bachelor of education degree (hence the six years i spoke of).

That's odd.

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

I seriously have no more enthusiasm for this thread. If you read most of my posts, i agreed with strike opponents that there was much to be disappointed about regarding the situation. From afar, and not as removed from the situation as you have suggested, i felt the need to speak on behalf of a group of people that seemed to be taking quite a few unnecessary shots.

Sorry if you feel it wasn't my place to do so.

You're entitled to speak on whatever you want. I have the right to respond. At the end of the day, Chicago isn't BC.