Chicago Public School Teachers on Strike...

cincybearcat

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

i felt the need to speak on behalf of a group of people that seemed to be taking quite a few unnecessary shots.
.

Ummmm, they are striking, they shouldn't be criticized? Seriously, it seems like some people think teachers should be immune to everything...no need to worry about the realities of the economy, can't judge their performance because somehow they are so unique in this world...it's getting really old.

Some teachers are great. But if they believe that they cant be evaluated and they don't understand the realities of the economy...well, then they are just as wrong as those idiot teachers out there that also exist.

elvistheking44

On teacher evaluations......

Could you not test a student on the first day of class, or the first day THEY attend class......(I realize in Chicago we have a huge parade and rally to remind students when class begins)

Test them on the last day of class........

Attendance would have to be monitored extremely close.....

If your student tests shitty on the first day, and tests shitty on the last day but attends school 90% of the time it should fall on the teacher and a negative mark on the evaluation.

If your student tests shitty on the first day, and tests shitty on the last day but only attends school 10% of the time it should fall on the student and no negative mark on the evaluation.

If your student tests shitty on the first day, and his/her test score improves, positive mark on the evaluation.

Now I realize this does not help the student who misses 90% of the school year, but then again are we really failing that child or are his/her parents?

elvistheking44

SPEEDY MCCREADY wrote:

ofthegirl99 wrote:

As a parent of a child in CPS system I must say its starting to boil over in our community. Parents are getting fed up and its only day 3. Karen Lewis has had her 15 minutes of fame and its time to get to serious business, not parade through the streets of Chicago and cause massive disruptions.

If this goes on for weeks I better see some serious fucking results in the classroom......

Ole Karen knows EXACTLY when the cameras are on, doesnt she. I picture her envisioning a reality show, and maybe a talk show. For some reason I believe she pictures herself as the next Oprah.

She thinks this is a reality show already. She's playing with my child's future.....and it needs to stop.

inlet13

I'm going to restate one approach I mentioned earlier.

How about this for evaluations?

There's mean threshold salary for every school and there's national testing based on grade delivered to each school. Teacher's pay could be dictated by their class' % above or below the school average on that testing. If their class does better than the school average, they get paid above the mean school payrate at that percentage. If they are below the school average, they get paid below the mean school payrate at that percentage. If you rank in the bottom five teachers consistently - they are warned first and if it continues they are fired.

This way - there's no way for teachers to complain about their students. The students are the same within the school. Sure, you may have a bad crop one year relative to the rest of your school, but a good crop the next. Your job is to get the most out of them you can.

cornnifer

inlet13 wrote:

[

I'm an economist and I teach opportunity cost.

Teachers are bitching about their wage/work conditions when they are making well above the mean salary, have off for two months each summer and work less hours than the average job. Claims like 'they paid $300K in opportunity cost' to try to rationalize their relatively high wages are silly.

You lost me at "I'm an economist."

Well above the mean salary? The mean salary for college educated professionals, or the mean salary for everyone including 14 year olds and high school drop-outs?" Also, many teachers work during the summer, out of necessity to supplement their income, either teaching summer school, or doing something completely different. They also, generally spend time during their summer "vacation" to prepare for the coming school year. Furthermore, even if you were to only calculate a teacher's "hours" from the time they step into the classroom in the morning until the time they leave it, your "less hours than the average job" comment has me befuddled. Its offensive tripe, really. My "contracted" hours are from 8:30 to 4:30 Monday through Friday. Now, you're a brilliant economist so i'm sure you're quite good with numbers. 8 times 5 is 40 hours, Goodwill Hunting, and most teachers spend NON-contracted and unpaid time nearly every night and on the weekends. Again, relatively high wages compared to whom?! relative to what? i'm scratching my head right now. Listen, i mean no disrespect, but when the aforementioned revolution starts, i suggest locking your doors.

cincybearcat

cornnifer wrote:

My "contracted" hours are from 8:30 to 4:30 Monday through Friday. Now, you're a brilliant economist so i'm sure you're quite good with numbers. 8 times 5 is 40 hours,

ahhh, you sound like my grandma. Paid lunches?

whygohome

inlet13 wrote:

I think it's fine, personally. Would we prefer smaller classes? Sure. But, can we afford it? No.

Yes, personally you think it is fine, but are you a public school teacher? If not, it's difficult to speak without experience

inlet13 wrote:

North Carolina's average is almost certainly lower than the national average, I would assume. Your buddy is doing arguably better than average for his state. Plus, he doesn't work for two months each summer and has nice retirement plan. He could bartend over the summer and make $60K easy. Maybe he does.

See above

inlet13 wrote:

The incentive is a higher than average regional salary, months off at a time and a nice lifestyle doing something one believes that matters.

This is a simplification. As class sizes increase, the system becomes more regressive, and the culture more degenerative, the incentive decreases. A teacher's responsibility extends far beyond educating these days. Let's not pretend this is a stress-free career.

inlet13 wrote:

Wall Streeters, meanwhile may also earn a higher than average salary but they don't get months off at a time. Their career is somewhat shaky right now with the market volatility and their lifestyle (at least from the friends that I've seen go that route) sucks. 15 hour days all year round is not fun. I would want no part in going into working on wall street, personally.

I worked on Wall St. this summer as a commodities trader with a friend of mine who has been on Wall St. for 10 years. I think this idea of 15 hour days is an overgeneralization. I did not see any of that, and my friend, as well as other friends and family members in the industry, would also regard that as an overgeneralization.

inlet13

First and foremost, I know you're purposefully trying to come across as condescending - so be it.

cornnifer wrote:

You lost me at "I'm an economist."

Well above the mean salary? The mean salary for college educated professionals, or the mean salary for everyone including 14 year olds and high school drop-outs?"

I mean - umm... "the mean salary". As you know, mean is another word for average. In other words, the average salary in America.

As for college educated professionals, I don't know for sure. I do know that education as a major is often cited as the easiest of all majors. So, I would assume wages may reflect that, but I'm not sure. For example, the Chicago example of $75K is quite high and would probably be higher than most majors.

cornnifer wrote:

Also, many teachers work during the summer, out of necessity to supplement their income, either teaching summer school, or doing something completely different.

I know a number of highschool and grade school teachers. Some do nothing in the summer. Many of them in my area go on vacation to the beach for the summer. They do work down there as lifeguards, bartenders and whatnot and many rent their housing for the summer. I don't feel bad for them. They get to spend the entire summer at the beach, which is awesome. Basically, they do jobs that private sector workers were capable of doing when we were in college and had the availability to have off in the summer.

More power to them. I'm not saying this is something to be frowned upon. I think it's quite cool - in fact. But, and this is a big but, I don't feel sorry for them. They make an above average wage BEFORE these two month jobs. AND they can take these jobs with nothing lost. That's great.

cornnifer wrote:

They also, generally spend time during their summer "vacation" to prepare for the coming school year.

I teach and truth be told I teach - year round - no breaks. I know how much time is necessary to "prepare for the upcoming school year" and it's not a lot. One needs to be prepared for class for sure, but the truth is teachers "could" work all year round if necessary with no or very little break to "prepare for the upcoming school year".

cornnifer wrote:

Furthermore, even if you were to only calculate a teacher's "hours" from the time they step into the classroom in the morning until the time they leave it, your "less hours than the average job" comment has me befuddled.
Its offensive tripe, really. My "contracted" hours are from 8:30 to 4:30 Monday through Friday. Now, you're a brilliant economist so i'm sure you're quite good with numbers. 8 times 5 is 40 hours, Goodwill Hunting, and most teachers spend NON-contracted and unpaid time nearly every night and on the weekends.

Goodwill Hunting? Seriously?

The logic - 40 hours a week for 9 months vs. 40-hours a week for 12 months. Even the actor that played Goodwill Hunting could do the math.

cornnifer wrote:

Again, relatively high wages compared to whom?! relative to what? i'm scratching my head right now. Listen, i mean no disrespect, but when the aforementioned revolution starts, i suggest locking your doors.

Relative to their state. Relative to the nation. They make a decent wage, an admirable wage. A relatively high wage. Stop scratching your head for a moment, and just read what I wrote.

As for the aforementioned "revolution" your referring to, I have no clue what you're talking about. And the "I mean no disrepect" line is ummm... making me scratch my head. Re-read your post. Seems like you did to me.

Its Evolution Baby

I come from a family of educators and there are a couple of misnomers floating out in these posts about days off and hours worked from teachers.

1. Summers/Days worked- A teacher worth there salt will spend the first part of the Summer breaking down the classroom and taking some kind of training program to become better at the profession. Then in August they prep for the new incoming students and updated lessons. Usually July is the only full month off (still better than most jobs don't get me wrong) Those days worked are not counted in days worked. Also MOST teachers work Sundays prepping for the week ahead.

2. Hours per day. 7 hours is the time with students. Again AVERAGE teachers spend at least an hour before class and 2 hours after class prepping for the days/weeks ahead and grading papers. I would say MOST teachers work 10 hour days.

3. Parents. Parents are getting worse and worse at managing there kids education. They want to put all the blame on the teachers if a kid is getting bad grades. If you have large class sizes then you don't get to blame teachers for not having enough one on one time with struggling students. If a kid is getting bad grades its up to the parent to make sure they are getting there homework done and the kid understands it.

4. Days off during the school year. Again if the teacher is worth a damn they spend almost an extra full day of unpaid over time to prep the lessons for the substitute. So even if they get a "paid day off" they most likely worked 12 to 13 hours the day before.

I'm not denying this strike seems pointless and it seems Chicago Teachers are fairly compensated, but it URKS me when I here people rag on teachers for there time off and hours worked. If you think its such a sweet deal then become a teacher. My opinion is that if teachers made more money, more of the talented work force would pursue being a teacher right out of school instead of falling back to it when there initial career flounders out (this not true of everyone but its just a personal opinion). Education in this country would much better if being a Teacher was as respected a position as a lawyer, wall st. exec, or a doctor. Especially with the 6 years of schooling that is required just like those other positions listed above.

inlet13

whygohome wrote:

Yes, personally you think it is fine, but are you a public school teacher? If not, it's difficult to speak without experience

I teach college. And yes, I've taught classes that large or larger.

whygohome wrote:

See above

Ok. Saw it.

whygohome wrote:

This is a simplification. As class sizes increase, the system becomes more regressive, and the culture more degenerative, the incentive decreases. A teacher's responsibility extends far beyond educating these days. Let's not pretend this is a stress-free career.

I'm not saying it's stress-free. No job is stress free to my knowledge. I don't see how "the system" becomes more regressive, etc. I'll repeat what I said - the incentive to work in the field is a higher than average regional salary, months off at a time and nice lifestyle doing something one believes in. I'll throw one more factor in to, which I'm sure will be ridiculed but there's without a doubt some truth to it: education is an easy college major relative to the alternatives. That, along with the aforementioned, encourages more folks try the field. You asked for incentives. You got em'.

This is not to say teachers aren't necessary, smart or great people. They are all of the above. But, their job was "chosen". And I don't feel sorry for them.

whygohome

Its Evolution Baby wrote:

I come from a family of educators and there are a couple of misnomers floating out in these posts about days off and hours worked from teachers.

1. Summers/Days worked- A teacher worth there salt will spend the first part of the Summer breaking down the classroom and taking some kind of training program to become better at the profession. Then in August they prep for the new incoming students and updated lessons. Usually July is the only full month off (still better than most jobs don't get me wrong) Those days worked are not counted in days worked. Also MOST teachers work Sundays prepping for the week ahead.

2. Hours per day. 7 hours is the time with students. Again AVERAGE teachers spend at least an hour before class and 2 hours after class prepping for the days/weeks ahead and grading papers. I would say MOST teachers work 10 hour days.

3. Parents. Parents are getting worse and worse at managing there kids education. They want to put all the blame on the teachers if a kid is getting bad grades. If you have large class sizes then you don't get to blame teachers for not having enough one on one time with struggling students. If a kid is getting bad grades its up to the parent to make sure they are getting there homework done and the kid understands it.

4. Days off during the school year. Again if the teacher is worth a damn they spend almost an extra full day of unpaid over time to prep the lessons for the substitute. So even if they get a "paid day off" they most likely worked 12 to 13 hours the day before.

I'm not denying this strike seems pointless and it seems Chicago Teachers are fairly compensated, but it URKS me when I here people rag on teachers for there time off and hours worked. If you think its such a sweet deal then become a teacher. My opinion is that if teachers made more money, more of the talented work force would pursue being a teacher right out of school instead of falling back to it when there initial career flounders out (this not true of everyone but its just a personal opinion). Education in this country would much better if being a Teacher was as respected a position as a lawyer, wall st. exec, or a doctor. Especially with the 6 years of schooling that is required just like those other positions listed above.

Well put.

whygohome

inlet13 wrote:

whygohome wrote:

Yes, personally you think it is fine, but are you a public school teacher? If not, it's difficult to speak without experience

I teach college. And yes, I've taught classes that large or larger.

whygohome wrote:

See above

Ok. Saw it.

whygohome wrote:

This is a simplification. As class sizes increase, the system becomes more regressive, and the culture more degenerative, the incentive decreases. A teacher's responsibility extends far beyond educating these days. Let's not pretend this is a stress-free career.

I'm not saying it's stress-free. No job is stress free to my knowledge. I don't see how "the system" becomes more regressive, etc. I'll repeat what I said - the incentive to work in the field is a higher than average regional salary, months off at a time and nice lifestyle doing something one believes in. I'll throw one more factor in to, which I'm sure will be ridiculed but there's without a doubt some truth to it: education is an easy college major relative to the alternatives. That, along with the aforementioned, encourages more folks try the field. You asked for incentives. You got em'.

This is not to say teachers aren't necessary, smart or great people. They are all of the above. But, their job was "chosen". And I don't feel sorry for them.

I teach at a university as well (and still trade commodities on the side; quite fun!). Teaching at a university is not comparable to teaching a public middle school or high school. A college lecture of 200 is more manageable than a 9th grade classroom of 30.

Education can be an easier major than others, and I will agree with something you said in an earlier post that Economics is one of the more difficult ones, but I have a B.S. in Finance and an MA and PhD in English (a field that people say is "easy" without anything close to experience or knowledge on the subject). Granted my experience with English was at a higher level, but Finance, at least in my experience, was not more difficult. English was.

I don't think Education is any easier than Management, Marketing, Communications, Philosophy, to name a few. A lot depends on the institution.

inlet13

Its Evolution Baby wrote:

My opinion is that if teachers made more money, more of the talented work force would pursue being a teacher right out of school instead of falling back to it when there initial career flounders out (this not true of everyone but its just a personal opinion). Education in this country would much better if being a Teacher was as respected a position as a lawyer, wall st. exec, or a doctor. Especially with the 6 years of schooling that is required just like those other positions listed above.

I'm going to say something that will probably URK you more:

Sorry in advance, but...

if "more of the talented work force would pursue being a teacher" period, a large portion of the current teachers wouldn't make it into the field - they'd fail out or be bipassed for the "more talented". Once again, it's one of the easier college majors - that's a fact that a lot of folks leave out. That's not to say there aren't plenty of super-smart teachers out there who are in the field for the right reasons. I'm sure there are a ton, and these folks could beve much smarter than the smartest in other fields. It's to say - a lot of people go into the field because it's easy.

The difficulty in obtaining a master's in education is not comparable to that of a lawyer, for example. And I don't know where you live, but a doctor doesn't only require six years of college+grad work where I'm from.

Finally, I think the teacher is respected in terms of a career. I respect teachers a hell of a lot more than a lawyer. I just lose respect for them when they complain about $75K salaries, etc.

inlet13

whygohome wrote:

inlet13 wrote:

whygohome wrote:

Yes, personally you think it is fine, but are you a public school teacher? If not, it's difficult to speak without experience

I teach college. And yes, I've taught classes that large or larger.

whygohome wrote:

See above

Ok. Saw it.

whygohome wrote:

This is a simplification. As class sizes increase, the system becomes more regressive, and the culture more degenerative, the incentive decreases. A teacher's responsibility extends far beyond educating these days. Let's not pretend this is a stress-free career.

I'm not saying it's stress-free. No job is stress free to my knowledge. I don't see how "the system" becomes more regressive, etc. I'll repeat what I said - the incentive to work in the field is a higher than average regional salary, months off at a time and nice lifestyle doing something one believes in. I'll throw one more factor in to, which I'm sure will be ridiculed but there's without a doubt some truth to it: education is an easy college major relative to the alternatives. That, along with the aforementioned, encourages more folks try the field. You asked for incentives. You got em'.

This is not to say teachers aren't necessary, smart or great people. They are all of the above. But, their job was "chosen". And I don't feel sorry for them.

I teach at a university as well (and still trade commodities on the side; quite fun!). Teaching at a university is not comparable to teaching a public middle school or high school. A college lecture of 200 is more manageable than a 9th grade classroom of 30.

Education can be an easier major than others, and I will agree with something you said in an earlier post that Economics is one of the more difficult ones, but I have a B.S. in Finance and an MA and PhD in English (a field that people say is "easy" without anything close to experience or knowledge on the subject). Granted my experience with English was at a higher level, but Finance, at least in my experience, was not more difficult. English was.

I don't think Education is any easier than Management, Marketing, Communications, Philosophy, to name a few. A lot depends on the institution.

Take it for what's its worth:

http://www.thebestcolleges.org/top-10-e ... ee-majors/

The 10 easiest college degree majors based on GPA

1. Education
2. Language
3. English
4. Music
5. Religion
6. Sociology and Anthropology
7. Art
8. History
9. Computer Science
10. Philosophy and Religious Studies

The 10 hardest college degree majors based on GPA

1. Chemistry
2. Math
3. Economics
4. Psychology
5. Biology
6. Geology
7. Philosophy
8. Geography
9. Physics
10 Political Science

whygohome

inlet13 wrote:

Take it for what's its worth:

http://www.thebestcolleges.org/top-10-e ... ee-majors/

The 10 easiest college degree majors based on GPA

1. Education
2. Language
3. English
4. Music
5. Religion
6. Sociology and Anthropology
7. Art
8. History
9. Computer Science
10. Philosophy and Religious Studies

The 10 hardest college degree majors based on GPA

1. Chemistry
2. Math
3. Economics
4. Psychology
5. Biology
6. Geology
7. Philosophy
8. Geography
9. Physics
10 Political Science

I quickly read the actual study. It's not worth much to me. As I said before, the sciences and a few other fields are more difficult, but this study is based on GPA and there are far too many variables that are left out.
And, as it says in the link you provided, a lot relies on the individual. An individual earning a degree in Eduaction can put the same number of hours and the same level of hard work into their degree as someone earning their degree in Econ.

inlet13

whygohome wrote:

inlet13 wrote:

Take it for what's its worth:

http://www.thebestcolleges.org/top-10-e ... ee-majors/

The 10 easiest college degree majors based on GPA

1. Education
2. Language
3. English
4. Music
5. Religion
6. Sociology and Anthropology
7. Art
8. History
9. Computer Science
10. Philosophy and Religious Studies

The 10 hardest college degree majors based on GPA

1. Chemistry
2. Math
3. Economics
4. Psychology
5. Biology
6. Geology
7. Philosophy
8. Geography
9. Physics
10 Political Science

I quickly read the actual study. It's not worth much to me. As I said before, the sciences and a few other fields are more difficult, but this study is based on GPA and there are far too many variables that are left out.
And, as it says in the link you provided, a lot relies on the individual. An individual earning a degree in Eduaction can put the same number of hours and the same level of hard work into their degree as someone earning their degree in Econ.

It means ease of grades. I don't agree that these rankings are not worth anything since they reflect grades. I certainly don't think a degree in education is on par with a degree in say - chemistry or math. More people fail out.

Its Evolution Baby

inlet13 wrote:

Its Evolution Baby wrote:

My opinion is that if teachers made more money, more of the talented work force would pursue being a teacher right out of school instead of falling back to it when there initial career flounders out (this not true of everyone but its just a personal opinion). Education in this country would much better if being a Teacher was as respected a position as a lawyer, wall st. exec, or a doctor. Especially with the 6 years of schooling that is required just like those other positions listed above.

I'm going to say something that will probably URK you more:

Sorry in advance, but...

if "more of the talented work force would pursue being a teacher" period, a large portion of the current teachers wouldn't make it into the field - they'd fail out or be bipassed for the "more talented". Once again, it's one of the easier college majors - that's a fact that a lot of folks leave out. That's not to say there aren't plenty of super-smart teachers out there who are in the field for the right reasons. I'm sure there are a ton, and these folks could beve much smarter than the smartest in other fields. It's to say - a lot of people go into the field because it's easy.

The difficulty in obtaining a master's in education is not comparable to that of a lawyer, for example. And I don't know where you live, but a doctor doesn't only require six years of college+grad work where I'm from.

Finally, I think the teacher is respected in terms of a career. I respect teachers a hell of a lot more than a lawyer. I just lose respect for them when they complain about $75K salaries, etc.

Most teachers don't sniff 75k...teachers in the Bay area make around 40 to 50 k for the first few years and its pretty damn expensive here. Also I said this strike seems excessive. I was making an observation how most people think teachers work the contracted days and hours and that is it. That is just wrong unless they are a very very poor teacher.

I'll say it again...I don't think the Chicago school systems should be shut down and its doing more harm than good to teachers across the country. Most teachers don't even sniff the pay these Chicago teachers complain about.

markin ball

So lemme get this straight. Using the stats in this thread...

Education degree is one of the easiest out there...check

Summers off, great benefits, job security...check

75k a year...check

and most quit within the first five years??????

Something doesn't add up. It probably all the overgeneralized, misconstrued, narrow, misleading, stats. Just a guess, though.

inlet13

markin ball wrote:

So lemme get this straight. Using the stats in this thread...

Education degree is one of the easiest out there...check

Summers off, great benefits, job security...check

75k a year...check

and most quit within the first five years??????

Something doesn't add up. It probably all the overgeneralized, misconstrued, narrow, misleading, stats. Just a guess, though.

Where's this "most quit within the first five years" in Chicago stat? I missed that one.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

inlet13 wrote:

markin ball wrote:

So lemme get this straight. Using the stats in this thread...

Education degree is one of the easiest out there...check

Summers off, great benefits, job security...check

75k a year...check

and most quit within the first five years??????

Something doesn't add up. It probably all the overgeneralized, misconstrued, narrow, misleading, stats. Just a guess, though.

Where's this "most quit within the first five years" in Chicago stat? I m
issed that one.

I posted an article from forbes earlier. You never bothered to read it.

Interesting that you say you teach year round. That would be quite different from the profs i remember in university.

My recollection of profs were 6 months of teaching (can't count exam months). 2-3 lectures per week at 1and a half hours a pop. No marking as the GAs did that for them. And very little interaction with students except for the hotties that hung around right after the lecture.

Assessment practices weren't in place to facilitate learning. There were evaluation methods to sort and rank the students. Lastly, management was rarely an issue because each student was there because they paid dearly to be there.

Unless your style differs significantly from the overwhelming majority of my profs, don't be so quick to speak as if you know what a real teaching experience might be.