Chicago Public School Teachers on Strike...

inlet13

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

I posted an article from forbes earlier. You never bothered to read it.

Not sure if you're trying to come across like this, but seriously - just re-read what you wrote. How do you think that reads? The discussion is 20 pages long, I was involved early, than I came back in. I'm sorry I haven't read every single post. Care to re-post it?

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

Interesting that you say you teach year round. That would be quite different from the profs i remember in university.

So, first it was you were doubting my education, now you're doubting that I teach year round? :fp:

I do teach year-round. In fact, I work during the day as an economist and I teach at night. I have two full-time jobs. My position at night is paid just like the day faculty. Yet, both a day faculty position and my position makes less money than an average CPS teacher. And it's not cost of living - I live in Philly area.

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

My recollection of profs were 6 months of teaching (can't count exam months). 2-3 lectures per week at 1and a half hours a pop. No marking as the GAs did that for them. And very little interaction with students except for the hotties that hung around right after the lecture.

I don't work in a typical environment. I work in a cohort-based system. I travel to different places with in my state to teach for my institution. These cohorts start at random times of year, hence why I work year round and how I can teach one to two nights a week and still be considered full-time faculty.

Teaching four-hour classes, I understand the terms - "prep work".

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

Assessment practices weren't in place to facilitate learning. There were evaluation methods to sort and rank the students. Lastly, management was rarely an issue because each student was there because they paid dearly to be there.

Unless your style differs significantly from the overwhelming majority of my profs, don't be so quick to speak as if you know what a real teaching experience might be.

I do know what a real teaching experience might be. I teach full time, albeit in a different type of program. But, I've been teaching college courses for 8 years. I've taught classes at pretty much every single collegiate institution in the Philadelphia area, including Penn. Thanks for more condescending remarks though. You're really on your game.

elvistheking44

Please, please refrain from bashing each other personally. This strike is a HUGE deal in Chicago, and as much attention is needed as possible, even on a band website. Lets keep this one from being locked for our own personal reasons.

markin ball

inlet13 wrote:

markin ball wrote:

So lemme get this straight. Using the stats in this thread...

Education degree is one of the easiest out there...check

Summers off, great benefits, job security...check

75k a year...check

and most quit within the first five years??????

Something doesn't add up. It probably all the overgeneralized, misconstrued, narrow, misleading, stats. Just a guess, though.

Where's this "most quit within the first five years" in Chicago stat? I missed that one.

Ok. I concede the point. I would just like to add that much of the discussion has devolved into a debate about how good or bad teachers have it across the board and that the intent of my flippant post was basically to say there's more to the stats than meets the eye in most cases. It's often unwise to judge without walking a mile in their shoes. I just find it odd that now people are getting into teaching because of the money?

inlet13

The forbes article cited, I belive, was a response to this piece which shows the other side:

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/03/why-fire-teachers/72163/

More in the article link but here's her premise...

o what are the benefits of making teachers easier to fire?

We get rid of the worst teachers--the ones who now take years to fire. The kids they're teaching would be better off with an utter neophyte. As Noah Millman points out in the post I linked above, very bad teachers are not just a problem for their class; the effect spills over to other classrooms when those kids go from period to period, or year to year, degrading the effectiveness of the school as a whole.
We end the temptation for long-time teachers to phone it in: teach the same lesson plans over and over, give essentially the same tests, etc. Yes, there are many dedicated teachers who keep putting in 110% for decades, but it is ludicrous to suggest that this describes every single teacher in America.
We shift the selection pool from people who are more interested in decades-long job security to people who are more interested in money. Not everyone who is interested in job security wants to be able to coast--but people who want to be able to coast are likely to be very attracted to job security. Universities mitigate this effect by making it so spectacularly hard to get to the point of being a tenured professor. Primary schools don't have that option.
We end up with fewer burned-out teachers still in the classroom. If we make teaching the high-intensity, high reward job it should always be, then we're going to get people burning out.
We give teachers an incentive to do what works the best, rather than what is most satisfying for them. I warn you that if you are about to suggest that this never happens, I am going to ask you if you have ever met any human beings, and if so, whether you actually spoke to them. As Ian Ayres points out, boring-but-effective systems like direct instruction have been blocked for years by teachers because it reduces their autonomy. I grant that teachers convince themselves that they are doing this for the children. Journalists also convince themselves that they have a special right not to have their emails read the way they do to everyone else . . . and I assure you, they genuinely believe that this is a principled moral stand.
People will not invest so much in educational credentials, which are completely useless outside of schools. Since these credentials show zero impact on teacher quality, it would be better for the teachers to be studying literally anything else, including a reality television show from the couch. At least they'd get something out of that.
Laying off older, more expensive teachers is not good for those teachers . . . but it is good for the schools. It means you can achieve necessary budget cuts by laying off the fewest teachers.

inlet13

markin ball wrote:

Ok. I concede the point. I would just like to add that much of the discussion has devolved into a debate about how good or bad teachers have it across the board and that the intent of my flippant post was basically to say there's more to the stats than meets the eye in most cases. It's often unwise to judge without walking a mile in their shoes. I just find it odd that now people are getting into teaching because of the money?

Fair enough.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Inlet...

You kind of lowered the bar a bit with your 'wahh' comment. I do respect your ability to articulate your position. I guess i should have ignored that one but, for whatever reason, i haven't liked the spirit of the majority of this thread.

I skimmed the article you posted. I am familiar with most of the arguments presented. They are reasonable. Interesting though that the writer makes the implication that if we are to tighten standards then we must be prepared to pay more.

I'll roll the dice with such a model. For 19 years now I've done my best as a teacher. With the incentive of more money, my performance wouldn't change. I'm already doing my best.

When reasonable people get stereotyped like they might in a thread such as this one, well, it's hard not to be somewhat confrontational.

Have a good day.

cincybearcat

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

With the incentive of more money, my performance wouldn't change. I'm already doing my best.

Someone mentioned that the retention of teachers is an issue. If it was performance based, and you could earn more $ than bad teachers...would that keep them in the system? I think so.

heidihi

WOW! I am a teacher in Australia and I am shocked at the disrepect given to teachers on this thread. I was late to come to teaching and I love it but I can also honestly say that I have not worked o hard nor been so emotionally drained at any other job. I am simply disgusted at the terrible generalisations about teachers made here.... and I can honestly say that class size is important- in Queensland Australia, teachers are not asked (unless it is a fill gap) to teach classes larger than 28- 30.... I am pretty sure that if class sizes went to 36 that the teachers here would walk off the job as well... Yes teaching is a choice but to imply they should take second jobs is terrible. I am suprised anybody wants to be a teacher at all with the kind of attitudes expressed here.

dimitrispearljam

heidihi wrote:

WOW! I am a teacher in Australia and I am shocked at the disrepect given to teachers on this thread. I was late to come to teaching and I love it but I can also honestly say that I have not worked o hard nor been so emotionally drained at any other job. I am simply disgusted at the terrible generalisations about teachers made here.... and I can honestly say that class size is important- in Queensland Australia, teachers are not asked (unless it is a fill gap) to teach classes larger than 28- 30.... I am pretty sure that if class sizes went to 36 that the teachers here would walk off the job as well... Yes teaching is a choice but to imply they should take second jobs is terrible. I am suprised anybody wants to be a teacher at all with the kind of attitudes expressed here.

we say in Greece"when you are out of the dance floor,you think all songs and dancing its easy.."

dimitrispearljam

cincybearcat wrote:

dimitrispearljam wrote:

these people create the society..these people take our kids,our nephews,our friends kids and put them out there..they create personalities,they create characters from zero,...

While I agree that teacher help....I'd say you seem to be describing parents in reality.

no,i dont..
teachers spent the same hours with kids per day as their parent..8 hours scholl,8 hours sleep 8 hours with family,nanny,grandparents..etc
teachers are very important role in kids life,grow up,and create their personality..
its not just a job that helps...for me its so inportant as serving your country..

81

dimitrispearljam wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

dimitrispearljam wrote:

these people create the society..these people take our kids,our nephews,our friends kids and put them out there..they create personalities,they create characters from zero,...

While I agree that teacher help....I'd say you seem to be describing parents in reality.

no,i dont..
teachers spent the same hours with kids per day as their parent..8 hours scholl,8 hours sleep 8 hours with family,nanny,grandparents..etc
teachers are very important role in kids life,grow up,and create their personality..
its not just a job that helps...for me its so inportant as serving your country..

this isn't about the importance of teachers, it's about employment contracts and teachers trying to bend over Joe Taxpayer

dimitrispearljam

81 wrote:

dimitrispearljam wrote:

[

this isn't about the importance of teachers, it's about employment contracts and teachers trying to bend over Joe Taxpayer

yep,i know,just answering to cincybearcat opinion

comebackgirl

whygohome wrote:

inlet13 wrote:

Take it for what's its worth:

http://www.thebestcolleges.org/top-10-e ... ee-majors/

The 10 easiest college degree majors based on GPA

1. Education
2. Language
3. English
4. Music
5. Religion
6. Sociology and Anthropology
7. Art
8. History
9. Computer Science
10. Philosophy and Religious Studies

The 10 hardest college degree majors based on GPA

1. Chemistry
2. Math
3. Economics
4. Psychology
5. Biology
6. Geology
7. Philosophy
8. Geography
9. Physics
10 Political Science

I quickly read the actual study. It's not worth much to me. As I said before, the sciences and a few other fields are more difficult, but this study is based on GPA and there are far too many variables that are left out.
And, as it says in the link you provided, a lot relies on the individual. An individual earning a degree in Eduaction can put the same number of hours and the same level of hard work into their degree as someone earning their degree in Econ.

Yeah I don't make much of the study either. It largely depends on your particular learning style (the study acknowledges this). Some people can excel at Chem 4, but would struggle with a visual arts class. Psychology harder than Physics? I think there are probably other factors that account for the lower GPAs and attrition rates. A lot of psychology majors are drawn to the field because of their own personal difficulties...those same difficulties can often get in the way of their education and lead to higher attrition rates. Education majors at my college have to have a double major - i.e. Education/math, Education/chem, etc., so that has to be taken into account. They have to enter the teacher certification program after they finish their BA/BS, adding at least an additional year to the required education. It's also important to remember that not all Master Degrees are created equal - some are 30 credits, some 45, some 60. Maybe Chem/Math/Econ majors just like to party a lot, hence the lower GPAs/higher attrition rates :think: hmmmm...probably not I have seen some students pursue teaching for the "perks" rather than the passion for teaching; they usually self-select out after student teaching or a year or two on the job.

There was a post earlier in the thread about college professors making less than public school teachers; in NJ higher ed faculty and professional staff are in the same union as pre-k - 12 teachers (AFT), so there would be similar pay scales, benefits. I'm not sure how that works in other states, including Illinois.

Anyway...I understand debating union spending, employment contracts, accountability and taxes, and exploring if the system could/should be changed. I don't think there's a need to debate the teaching profession or those who choose to pursue it; most pursue it for the passion of the work. It bothers me that when discussions on these topic comes up it often devolves into a debate of the professionals themselves.

peacefrompaul

comebackgirl wrote:

whygohome wrote:

inlet13 wrote:

Take it for what's its worth:

http://www.thebestcolleges.org/top-10-e ... ee-majors/

The 10 easiest college degree majors based on GPA

1. Education
2. Language
3. English
4. Music
5. Religion
6. Sociology and Anthropology
7. Art
8. History
9. Computer Science
10. Philosophy and Religious Studies

The 10 hardest college degree majors based on GPA

1. Chemistry
2. Math
3. Economics
4. Psychology
5. Biology
6. Geology
7. Philosophy
8. Geography
9. Physics
10 Political Science

Yes indeed.

comebackgirl

peacefrompaul wrote:

inlet13 wrote:

Take it for what's its worth:

http://www.thebestcolleges.org/top-10-e ... ee-majors/

The 10 easiest college degree majors based on GPA

1. Education
2. Language
3. English
4. Music
5. Religion
6. Sociology and Anthropology
7. Art
8. History
9. Computer Science
10. Philosophy and Religious Studies

The 10 hardest college degree majors based on GPA

1. Chemistry
2. Math
3. Economics
4. Psychology
5. Biology
6. Geology
7. Philosophy
8. Geography
9. Physics
10 Political Science

Yes indeed.

Hey - psychology and biology rank well above :P

peacefrompaul

comebackgirl wrote:

Hey - psychology and biology rank well above :P

Oh Lord, the reading required for those Majors..

comebackgirl

peacefrompaul wrote:

comebackgirl wrote:

Hey - psychology and biology rank well above :P

Oh Lord, the reading required for those Majors..

There's a lot of reading for poli sci too, isn't there?

peacefrompaul

comebackgirl wrote:

peacefrompaul wrote:

comebackgirl wrote:

Hey - psychology and biology rank well above :P

Oh Lord, the reading required for those Majors..

There's a lot of reading for poli sci too, isn't there?

They really shit on you at the 300 level.

comebackgirl

peacefrompaul wrote:

comebackgirl wrote:

peacefrompaul wrote:

Oh Lord, the reading required for those Majors..

There's a lot of reading for poli sci too, isn't there?

They really shit on you at the 300 level.

thought so...lots and lots of papers too :wave:

Who Princess

inlet13 wrote:

Take it for what's its worth:

http://www.thebestcolleges.org/top-10-e ... ee-majors/

The 10 easiest college degree majors based on GPA

1. Education
2. Language
3. English
4. Music
5. Religion
6. Sociology and Anthropology
7. Art
8. History
9. Computer Science
10. Philosophy and Religious Studies

The 10 hardest college degree majors based on GPA

1. Chemistry
2. Math
3. Economics
4. Psychology
5. Biology
6. Geology
7. Philosophy
8. Geography
9. Physics
10 Political Science

:wtf:

Either times have changed considerably since I was in college in the 70s or that article is a crock. I have 2 degrees in English and I worked my ass off to earn them.

Back to thread integrity: I would not have imagined that a teacher's strike would have generated this much response in such a short amount of time. Things are very different here in Texas, which is a right to work state. Teachers don't have this kind of union and they don't have these kinds of salaries. Their retirement is pathetic. However, they still receive the same lack of respect I'm seeing expressed here.

Very tough job. I love to teach but I wouldn't be a public school teacher for anything.