'+1' the above quotes - Brianlux et al (tried to do it the correct way, but it went wonky)
My experience of the term 'politically correct' is that it is used to dismiss invitations to demonstrate compassion towards others. 'Fence sitting' also fits this category - absolutely nothing wrong surveying the territory of an issue, immersing in the 'greyness', rather taking the black/white dichotomy approach to issues. 'Debating' reminds me of primary school: "All students should wear school uniform", "The school canteen should not sell junk food" etc... now kids write down all of your arguments, the opposing arguments and rebuttals... no, it doesn't matter if you believe what you're saying or not, just that you beat the opposition... the best team in the school gets to debate the best teams from other schools in Parliament House chambers... and if you really excel a career in politics is yours for the taking...
This is an interesting post; definitely get the 40 shades of gray - such is life.
(I'm thankful it's colorful too)
But as far as debating, I always saw it not as a way to win at all costs, but to (try to) see a particular issue from a different side. Not easy, for sure, but possible.
Post edited by moretonbayfig on
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,417
I want to take a minute to explore this idea: I think thread wars goes far beyond our little spats here on AMT. I seem to be seeing it all around me lately. People are anxious, testy, or worse, full of bitterness and spite. Does anyone else see this? And I'm not just talking about good, healthy debate. I mean hard core intentions. Just as one example- Texas lawyer Tom Head who predicts civil war if Obama is re-elected. That's just crazy. It's bating, unnecessary inciting of violence:
Have we really lost the ability to work together rationally as a whole? Maybe we deserve to fall into anarchy. I hope not because that is not just a fun Sex Pistols song.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I want to take a minute to explore this idea: I think thread wars goes far beyond our little spats here on AMT. I seem to be seeing it all around me lately. People are anxious, testy, or worse, full of bitterness and spite. Does anyone else see this? And I'm not just talking about good, healthy debate. I mean hard core intentions. Just as one example- Texas lawyer Tom Head who predicts civil war if Obama is re-elected. That's just crazy. It's bating, unnecessary inciting of violence:
Have we really lost the ability to work together rationally as a whole? Maybe we deserve to fall into anarchy. I hope not because that is not just a fun Sex Pistols song.
Shit gets crazy around election time, Sir.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,417
I want to take a minute to explore this idea: I think thread wars goes far beyond our little spats here on AMT. I seem to be seeing it all around me lately. People are anxious, testy, or worse, full of bitterness and spite. Does anyone else see this? And I'm not just talking about good, healthy debate. I mean hard core intentions. Just as one example- Texas lawyer Tom Head who predicts civil war if Obama is re-elected. That's just crazy. It's bating, unnecessary inciting of violence:
Have we really lost the ability to work together rationally as a whole? Maybe we deserve to fall into anarchy. I hope not because that is not just a fun Sex Pistols song.
Shit gets crazy around election time, Sir.
Yeah, I guess that's a very big part of it. In that case, I'll be glad to move on after November!
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I want to take a minute to explore this idea: I think thread wars goes far beyond our little spats here on AMT. I seem to be seeing it all around me lately. People are anxious, testy, or worse, full of bitterness and spite. Does anyone else see this? And I'm not just talking about good, healthy debate. I mean hard core intentions. Just as one example- Texas lawyer Tom Head who predicts civil war if Obama is re-elected. That's just crazy. It's bating, unnecessary inciting of violence:
Have we really lost the ability to work together rationally as a whole? Maybe we deserve to fall into anarchy. I hope not because that is not just a fun Sex Pistols song.
Shit gets crazy around election time, Sir.
Totally agree. And, another thing I've noticed moreso lately: People seem to have become more self-absorbed and thus rude, whether driving (both pedestrians AND fellow drivers), at the market, at stores, etc.
It's the "I got mine, so fuck you" mentality.
The optimistic side of me is well aware of the many kind and considerate folks out there, but damn. Some need to get the fuck over and step outside of themselves, get a little slap in the face with humility and good manners.
There's also - and we've seen this - people who seem to get an odd sense of glee at being willfully ignorant so long as they can harm someone else. It's a lot easier to tear people down than it is to build yourself up.
Instead of trying to make something of themselves, it's easier to tear someone else's world down. Or at least... try.
(and sorry... It's hard for me to keep from fucking with those people.)
There's also - and we've seen this - people who seem to get an odd sense of glee at being willfully ignorant so long as they can harm someone else. It's a lot easier to tear people down than it is to build yourself up.
Instead of trying to make something of themselves, it's easier to tear someone else's world down. Or at least... try.
(and sorry... It's hard for me to keep from fucking with those people.)
Not disagreeing, but I think the glee thing goes both ways sometimes.
And I understand the fucking-with-them need. Been there, once in a while still do that, if we're being honest here; but those folks who take pleasure in looking down on others for that sole purpose?
guess I don't know what "thread wars" is about either. Comments though, seem to lean towards helping out where you can and don't be a part of the problem? If so, maybe I didn't make a mistake joining. Though I'm an avid PJ fan, I just became a member recently because I was looking for like-minded comrades and, heavy on the comrades. So I posted my plea yesterday and had 1 response -- the class clown weighed in. Yet, I've been reading many of your posts in "A moving Train" and I see this forum has much more depth so I want to brave another stab. So, does anyone here have the grit to read something that's a bit more than a soundbite and if so, will you give me your hand cuz as it stands -- I'm sinking. http://www.dancingpartners.info
Guess at this point I'm supposed to give a quote. Well, it will continue to remain: "so--whatcha giving?
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,417
Dancepartner, check you PMs (Personal message) in "new messages".
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
It's just about the fact that it occurs to me that despite our differing opinions when push comes to shove I would hope we would help out those with whom we interact, with whom we have common interests, etc. For example- I know a guy in my community who has many, many opposing views from mine. But he is a member of my community, we share a number of friends, and we care about the community in which we live. If the need arose, I would do anything within reason to help him out of a jam and I'm almost certain that he would do the same despite our differences. I'd bet on it.
I tend to think of us on the forum as a kind of community even though it is a "virtual" one. We've had several occasions here where people have stepped up to the plate to help each other. "Bugs Amongst the Waves" was a good example of that (posted many times on The Porch in the past). I'd like to think that, because many of us have gotten to know each other through the forum, we would help each other if the need arises.
Maybe I'm too idealist for my own good, but this is what I believe.
patience: advice you gave. Good advice by the way. I looked it up to help me see what I needed and just thought I'd share it's definition here since "Thread Wars' seemed to be a musing about discussing topics that fall in the category 'A moving Train'. A train that appears stalled. Patience might get it going though...or not. Good luck back to you.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,417
patience: advice you gave. Good advice by the way. I looked it up to help me see what I needed and just thought I'd share it's definition here since "Thread Wars' seemed to be a musing about discussing topics that fall in the category 'A moving Train'. A train that appears stalled. Patience might get it going though...or not. Good luck back to you.
You're so right, dancepartner. I can see why you would see The Train as being stalled... or even wrecked at times. It's good to hear that from a fresh perspective because we all want to be engineers here with few conductors and brakemen. (I'm not pointing fingers- I need to improve that way also.) Some of the same basic arguments.... a-hem... I mean discussions here have been going in endless circles for years. Sometimes it seems like what we do is is debate merely for the sake of debating. Sometimes, sadly, it's just plain bating. Despite the frequent derailments it can still be a good place to find useful information and learn about others perspectives.
(Sorry this is starting sound like that film of Gerald Ford over-using the ship metaphor that is used in debate classes. )
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Glad to see you are online. I didn't want to leave without saying goodbye. I shall consider that I found a friend here and will probably check-in now and again because of that.
Moving train needs a conductor and it seems like you have the respect to do so. Besides, regardless of the jaded pomp, I see a glint of want emitting from others -- a conductor needed. In the meantime, bantered rants, muses and bates needs a category all their own. Something like 'This is not for you'. At least then I'd of known to stay out!! :shock:
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,417
Glad to see you are online. I didn't want to leave without saying goodbye. I shall consider that I found a friend here and will probably check-in now and again because of that.
Moving train needs a conductor and it seems like you have the respect to do so. Besides, regardless of the jaded pomp, I see a glint of want emitting from others -- a conductor needed. In the meantime, bantered rants, muses and bates needs a category all their own. Something like 'This is not for you'. At least then I'd of known to stay out!! :shock:
Good idea! Unfortunately I'm pretty sure the bantering ranting musing and bating would continue elsewhere on the forum. But a lot of caring and compassion goes on here too. Oh, and fun!
Hope to see you around, dancer.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I think some people are just getting mean on a personal level in AMT, in varying degrees. Great topics... I wish some people would stop taking it all so personally though. (With one exception IMO - guess who that might be) there is no reason that we can't all totally disagree with one another, and still consider each other "friends" at the end of the day - friends who don't think the other is a fucking idiot. Just stop taking it all so personally and so to heart, and stop acting like someone who disagrees is just a fucking moron, and I bet we (in the collective sense) could debate with one another until we're blue in the face without feeling shitty afterwards, either because we've dealt it or taken it. .... Not that I think that will happen! It's hard for people to stay level-headed and kind when they feel like their opinions are being shit upon. But there are plenty around here who are already nice calm influences, which is nice...
PS - I assumed Brian was talking about the people on this forum if push came to shove, not about welfare and giving change to panhandlers... but I could be wrong.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,417
I think some people are just getting mean on a personal level in AMT, in varying degrees. Great topics... I wish some people would stop taking it all so personally though. (With one exception IMO - guess who that might be) there is no reason that we can't all totally disagree with one another, and still consider each other "friends" at the end of the day - friends who don't think the other is a fucking idiot. Just stop taking it all so personally and so to heart, and stop acting like someone who disagrees is just a fucking moron, and I bet we (in the collective sense) could debate with one another until we're blue in the face without feeling shitty afterwards, either because we've dealt it or taken it. .... Not that I think that will happen! It's hard for people to stay level-headed and kind when they feel like their opinions are being shit upon. But there are plenty around here who are already nice calm influences, which is nice...
Great reminders, PJ_Soul. It's easy to get upset when others trounce your ideas and that can lead to lashing out in return. I've been guilty of that and it's good to be reminded to take the more level headed path.
PS - I assumed Brian was talking about the people on this forum if push came to shove, not about welfare and giving change to panhandlers... but I could be wrong.
In this context I was referring to forum members. Of course there are a lot of us here and we can't reach out to everyone but when something comes to our attention, frequently the need is responded to with caring and generosity. Bugs Amongst The Waves which was started by GivenToLukinKP, Dwhite and others was a great example of that kind of extended family support.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Great reminders, PJ_Soul. It's easy to get upset when others trounce your ideas and that can lead to lashing out in return. I've been guilty of that and it's good to be reminded to take the more level headed path.
PS - I assumed Brian was talking about the people on this forum if push came to shove, not about welfare and giving change to panhandlers... but I could be wrong.
I've been guilty of it too. :oops: Although most of the time I'm not mad or anything, just debating, and other people get pissed off, so I'm made to feel bad because others are being so mean and angry ... which really seems silly - I shouldn't care - but I can't help it. I get the impression that a lot of people hate a lot of other people on AMT. It's a pretty shitty atmosphere, and I don't see why that should be the case. Especially not when a lot of us have or will someday meet one another in real life. Btw, I think AMT is a pretty accurate reflection on North American society right now - so split in view points, and so mad, and so under the impression that the opposing side are total fucking idiots, when that clearly can't be the case. And meanwhile, everyone is so fucking pissed off at everyone they can't focus on doing anything good for anything. Sigh. It's these kinds of huge divides that cause civil wars. :? I saw your post about Tm Head Brian... I'm not sure he's that far off the mark (even if his intent is to be incendiary). History shows that such profound separation in both the political and social realms in a society DOES lead to civil war... just as soon as something lights the fuse... like an economy that goes into the shitter.... Okay, sorry, I'm getting WAY off base! For the record, I do not condone starting a civil war.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I've been guilty of it too. :oops: Although most of the time I'm not mad or anything, just debating, and other people get pissed off, so I'm made to feel bad because others are being so mean and angry ... which really seems silly - I shouldn't care - but I can't help it. I get the impression that a lot of people hate a lot of other people on AMT. It's a pretty shitty atmosphere, and I don't see why that should be the case. Especially not when a lot of us have or will someday meet one another in real life. Btw, I think AMT is a pretty accurate reflection on North American society right now - so split in view points, and so mad, and so under the impression that the opposing side are total fucking idiots, when that clearly can't be the case. And meanwhile, everyone is so fucking pissed off at everyone they can't focus on doing anything good for anything. Sigh. It's these kinds of huge divides that cause civil wars. :?
I dunno...I disagree with it being a typically shitty atmosphere here (although, catch me on a day when I'm grumpy and I might say otherwise ).
I think with few exceptions, it's really not that bad or hateful, and the discussions (at least from my point of view) are fairly civil and usually informative.
For the record, I don't hate anyone, and think maybe only one or two are total fucking idiots......
I've been guilty of it too. :oops: Although most of the time I'm not mad or anything, just debating, and other people get pissed off, so I'm made to feel bad because others are being so mean and angry ... which really seems silly - I shouldn't care - but I can't help it. I get the impression that a lot of people hate a lot of other people on AMT. It's a pretty shitty atmosphere, and I don't see why that should be the case. Especially not when a lot of us have or will someday meet one another in real life. Btw, I think AMT is a pretty accurate reflection on North American society right now - so split in view points, and so mad, and so under the impression that the opposing side are total fucking idiots, when that clearly can't be the case. And meanwhile, everyone is so fucking pissed off at everyone they can't focus on doing anything good for anything. Sigh. It's these kinds of huge divides that cause civil wars. :?
I dunno...I disagree with it being a typically shitty atmosphere here (although, catch me on a day when I'm grumpy and I might say otherwise ).
I think with few exceptions, it's really not that bad or hateful, and the discussions (at least from my point of view) are fairly civil and usually informative.
For the record, I don't hate anyone, and think maybe only one or two are total fucking idiots......
Kidding!
Oh, it's not all like that of course. But for me sometimes the negative is just SO negative that it completely overruns everything else. It's like a drop of poison in the well I guess. A tiny bit of vitriol spoils the whole lot. That's how I feel sometimes anyway. But yeah, maybe it's just my own fluctuating moods determining my reactions... or my most recent runs ins (I mean, we did all just get through the green people thread ) ... I think it's worst in the summer though. I think people are angrier when it's hot. Seriously.
I don't hate anyone either (well... maybe one or something ). I would be happy to be friends with anyone else, no matter how much we disagree ... I just feel like there are a solid number of others who don't feel that way.... or at least, they don't act like it by their treatment of others in some discussions .... Perhaps a lot of this is just a matter of people not expressing their intentions and moods very well when they post, I dunno (but come on there are a few who just act like jerks).
(how bad can it be really, if I'm at risk of overstating my feelings about it... I'm still here!)
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,417
I think with few exceptions, it's really not that bad or hateful, and the discussions (at least from my point of view) are fairly civil and usually informative.
But that's because nobody crosses you Hedonist because if we do you'll sic that giant baseball throwing rabbit on us!
:twisted:
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
But yeah, maybe it's just my own fluctuating moods determining my reactions... or my most recent runs ins (I mean, we did all just get through the green people thread ) ... I think it's worst in the summer though. I think people are angrier when it's hot. Seriously.
Oh, I hear you on both of those counts! Fucking hormones - AND heat
PS - I assumed Brian was talking about the people on this forum if push came to shove, not about welfare and giving change to panhandlers... but I could be wrong.
Be Excellent To Each Other
Party On, Dudes!
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,417
Does anyone else here see AMT as a major stalemate these days. It seems more like threadbare than thread wars lately. What are we doing here?
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Comments
http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/national/ ... re-elected
Have we really lost the ability to work together rationally as a whole? Maybe we deserve to fall into anarchy. I hope not because that is not just a fun Sex Pistols song.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Shit gets crazy around election time, Sir.
Yeah, I guess that's a very big part of it. In that case, I'll be glad to move on after November!
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
It's the "I got mine, so fuck you" mentality.
The optimistic side of me is well aware of the many kind and considerate folks out there, but damn. Some need to get the fuck over and step outside of themselves, get a little slap in the face with humility and good manners.
There's that, for sure.
There's also - and we've seen this - people who seem to get an odd sense of glee at being willfully ignorant so long as they can harm someone else. It's a lot easier to tear people down than it is to build yourself up.
Instead of trying to make something of themselves, it's easier to tear someone else's world down. Or at least... try.
(and sorry... It's hard for me to keep from fucking with those people.)
And I understand the fucking-with-them need. Been there, once in a while still do that, if we're being honest here; but those folks who take pleasure in looking down on others for that sole purpose?
I figure those who see differently, will see.
Guess at this point I'm supposed to give a quote. Well, it will continue to remain: "so--whatcha giving?
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Upper right, next to "view your posts".
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Looking at the dictionary it seems the line between the two can be rather thin. Interesting to think about but I'm not sure how it fits here. :?:
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
You're so right, dancepartner. I can see why you would see The Train as being stalled... or even wrecked at times. It's good to hear that from a fresh perspective because we all want to be engineers here with few conductors and brakemen. (I'm not pointing fingers- I need to improve that way also.) Some of the same basic arguments.... a-hem... I mean discussions here have been going in endless circles for years. Sometimes it seems like what we do is is debate merely for the sake of debating. Sometimes, sadly, it's just plain bating. Despite the frequent derailments it can still be a good place to find useful information and learn about others perspectives.
(Sorry this is starting sound like that film of Gerald Ford over-using the ship metaphor that is used in debate classes.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Moving train needs a conductor and it seems like you have the respect to do so. Besides, regardless of the jaded pomp, I see a glint of want emitting from others -- a conductor needed. In the meantime, bantered rants, muses and bates needs a category all their own. Something like 'This is not for you'. At least then I'd of known to stay out!! :shock:
Good idea! Unfortunately I'm pretty sure the bantering ranting musing and bating would continue elsewhere on the forum. But a lot of caring and compassion goes on here too. Oh, and fun!
Hope to see you around, dancer.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
PS - I assumed Brian was talking about the people on this forum if push came to shove, not about welfare and giving change to panhandlers... but I could be wrong.
Great reminders, PJ_Soul. It's easy to get upset when others trounce your ideas and that can lead to lashing out in return. I've been guilty of that and it's good to be reminded to take the more level headed path.
In this context I was referring to forum members. Of course there are a lot of us here and we can't reach out to everyone but when something comes to our attention, frequently the need is responded to with caring and generosity. Bugs Amongst The Waves which was started by GivenToLukinKP, Dwhite and others was a great example of that kind of extended family support.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I've been guilty of it too. :oops: Although most of the time I'm not mad or anything, just debating, and other people get pissed off, so I'm made to feel bad because others are being so mean and angry ... which really seems silly - I shouldn't care - but I can't help it. I get the impression that a lot of people hate a lot of other people on AMT. It's a pretty shitty atmosphere, and I don't see why that should be the case. Especially not when a lot of us have or will someday meet one another in real life. Btw, I think AMT is a pretty accurate reflection on North American society right now - so split in view points, and so mad, and so under the impression that the opposing side are total fucking idiots, when that clearly can't be the case. And meanwhile, everyone is so fucking pissed off at everyone they can't focus on doing anything good for anything. Sigh. It's these kinds of huge divides that cause civil wars. :? I saw your post about Tm Head Brian... I'm not sure he's that far off the mark (even if his intent is to be incendiary). History shows that such profound separation in both the political and social realms in a society DOES lead to civil war... just as soon as something lights the fuse... like an economy that goes into the shitter.... Okay, sorry, I'm getting WAY off base!
I think with few exceptions, it's really not that bad or hateful, and the discussions (at least from my point of view) are fairly civil and usually informative.
For the record, I don't hate anyone, and think maybe only one or two are total fucking idiots......
Kidding!
I don't hate anyone either (well... maybe one or something
(how bad can it be really, if I'm at risk of overstating my feelings about it... I'm still here!)
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
(ps...Brian - that's "wabbit" to you!
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"