Keeping with the intention of the thread, we all belong to 'humanity'. As much as I can, I will try and help anyone that is in deep doo-doo. Whether I like this person or not. Note: Not liking someone has a lot more to do than diverging opinions! I have some friends that have completely opposing views to mine in different areas, but that just makes 'animated' discussions around the dinner table and/or sharing a few bottles of wine!
if you were drowning and had on an Ed Vedder t-shirt i would swim out and try to save you ---
if you had on an Ed Hardy shirt i would swim out and try to drown you.
it is what it is
...
There... fixed it.
You're welcome.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
If you people are all so against "hand outs," why are you seemingly so desperate to reward Meghan McCain and Paris Hilton and Donald Trump's kid for being rich?
who is desperate to reward them?
"Death Tax". PoD wants it, you don't.
As for the OP, I agree, most people are probably not as hard as their politics would indicate, particularly one-on-one. The old adage "capitalism among the public, socialism among friends" would certainly apply in a lot of scenarios. Personally, I'm torn. From a purely philosophical or abstract perspective, I'm against the concept. I don't think it's "right" to take the livelihood of one person and give it to someone else based on yet another party's determination of need. That said, in practice, I have a hard time saying that we shouldn't provide some basic safety net for people who are temporarily down on their luck, but I believe there need to be strong controls and restrictions in place to prevent creating a culture of welfare and dependence.
While I do have my petty moments, I like to think that I would help someone when they need it. I know I have in the past, and I hope the same will be true in the future.
If you people are all so against "hand outs," why are you seemingly so desperate to reward Meghan McCain and Paris Hilton and Donald Trump's kid for being rich?
That said, in practice, I have a hard time saying that we shouldn't provide some basic safety net for people who are temporarily down on their luck, but I believe there need to be strong controls and restrictions in place to prevent creating a culture of welfare and dependence.
Let's start with education. Instead of training kids how to grow up to be automatons who punch in and out on time and work mechanically on assembly lines or do service work, we would do well to teach critical thinking, encourage creativity- especially in those who favor an artistic approach to life, teach appropriate skepticism and, for those who really want to how to be good at assembly line and service work. If we taught people how to use their talents and feel good about what they do, we would have more productive people and fewer who are unproductive. But I would also allow for those who find living simply or as aesthetics- I would certainly honor those who follow the "One Straw Revolution" way of life.
But how we got from talking about being kind to one another to a discussion on hand outs and welfare and such beats the hell out of me!
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
If you people are all so against "hand outs," why are you seemingly so desperate to reward Meghan McCain and Paris Hilton and Donald Trump's kid for being rich?
Really? :fp: How is this "handouts"? If they have reality shows/show up in newspapers, etc. we as a free society have the choice to watch them or not. If you're referring to "hand outs" as the money they inherit...I hope you don't/or haven't ever received/or will receive an inheriticance of any amount because you should come under the same scrutiny then I guess.
If you people are all so against "hand outs," why are you seemingly so desperate to reward Meghan McCain and Paris Hilton and Donald Trump's kid for being rich?
Really? :fp: How is this "handouts"? If they have reality shows/show up in newspapers, etc. we as a free society have the choice to watch them or not. If you're referring to "hand outs" as the money they inherit...I hope you don't/or haven't ever received/or will receive an inheriticance of any amount because you should come under the same scrutiny then I guess.
I'm talking about the massive tax cuts rewarded to the mega rich who haven't really done anything to earn them. While I do support incentives for creating jobs and businesses, just cutting taxes for people simply because they have money seems a bit counter-productive.
I assume you know that's what I'm talking about, and are just trying to pick another fight with me since you seem to crave my attention so much. You may want to explore why that is.
I'm talking about the massive tax cuts rewarded to the mega rich who haven't really done anything to earn them. While I do support incentives for creating jobs and businesses, just cutting taxes for people simply because they have money seems a bit counter-productive.
I assume you know that's what I'm talking about, and are just trying to pick another fight with me since you seem to crave my attention so much. You may want to explore why that is.
Actually you responded to my posts...not the other way around. Who's "attention seeking"? :?
Again, I will ask...what do you determine as the mega rich? What do you determine as someone who didn't earn it? Who do you consider someone who "has money"? Please fill me in? :corn:
...so says the person who no longer has aything to respond when basic logic gets brought down to the point they no longer have a leg to stand on. I'm still waiting for your definition of the "mega rich". :corn:
...so says the person who no longer has aything to respond when basic logic gets brought down to the point they no longer have a leg to stand on. I'm still waiting for your definition of the "mega rich". :corn:
Well, fuck, this is not where I wanted this to go but... "a thread war within a thread war thread"... that is pretty funny!
I may have said this before so excuse me if I repeat myself but AMT is a little like the Ramones- a dysfunctional family that stays together despite big differences: Joey- the beautiful New York Jewish left wing geek, Johnny- the rough neck no-bullshit right wing disciplinarian, Dee Dee- the creative lovable pain-in-the-ass and Tommy- the wizard if-nobody-else-can-do-it-I'll-learn-how architect (and several other notable members of the "family" who helped keep it going).
When asked if he would stick up for Joey Johnny once said (after thinking about it a moment), "Well, yeah, he's a part of the Ramones... and I love the Ramones... so, yeah".
That's what I was going for here. Maybe I'm wrong?
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Well, fuck, this is not where I wanted this to go but... "a thread war within a thread war thread"... that is pretty funny!
I may have said this before so excuse me if I repeat myself but AMT is a little like the Ramones- a dysfunctional family that stays together despite big differences: Joey- the beautiful New York Jewish left wing geek, Johnny- the rough neck no-bullshit right wing disciplinarian, Dee Dee- the creative lovable pain-in-the-ass and Tommy- the wizard if-nobody-else-can-do-it-I'll-learn-how architect (and several other notable members of the "family" who helped keep it going).
When asked if he would stick up for Joey Johnny once said (after thinking about it a moment), "Well, yeah, he's a part of the Ramones... and I love the Ramones... so, yeah".
That's what I was going for here. Maybe I'm wrong?
Maybe we need to form a band then! Because that kind of loyalty exists in tighter, smaller groups.
When asked if he would stick up for Joey Johnny once said (after thinking about it a moment), "Well, yeah, he's a part of the Ramones... and I love the Ramones... so, yeah".
That's what I was going for here. Maybe I'm wrong?
Well, fuck, this is not where I wanted this to go but... "a thread war within a thread war thread"... that is pretty funny!
I may have said this before so excuse me if I repeat myself but AMT is a little like the Ramones- a dysfunctional family that stays together despite big differences: Joey- the beautiful New York Jewish left wing geek, Johnny- the rough neck no-bullshit right wing disciplinarian, Dee Dee- the creative lovable pain-in-the-ass and Tommy- the wizard if-nobody-else-can-do-it-I'll-learn-how architect (and several other notable members of the "family" who helped keep it going).
When asked if he would stick up for Joey Johnny once said (after thinking about it a moment), "Well, yeah, he's a part of the Ramones... and I love the Ramones... so, yeah".
That's what I was going for here. Maybe I'm wrong?
Nope you are probably right my friend --- btw have you read "Commando" ... easiest read ever and good book
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,417
When asked if he would stick up for Joey Johnny once said (after thinking about it a moment), "Well, yeah, he's a part of the Ramones... and I love the Ramones... so, yeah".
That's what I was going for here. Maybe I'm wrong?
Not too far off -- I hope
Lately it seems that every time I visit AMT "We're a Happy Family" starts playing in my head.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
"Try to not spook the horse."
-Neil Young
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,417
Nope you are probably right my friend --- btw have you read "Commando" ... easiest read ever and good book
Not yet but having just finished Mickey Leigh's excellent I Slept With Joey Ramone next up on my list is Commando. I don't have a copy on hand so thanks for the reminder to order one!
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I meant for this thread to be more about us as a kind of community or extended family rather than the world at large. Yes, we're a very peripheral extended family for most of us, but never-the-less we do form a community of sorts. I'm very idealist about taking care of members of community.
As far as "hand outs" goes, if we're talking about social services, I've stated elsewhere that I believe they are important but also agree that there is a lot of waste and this should be dealt with, rather than just dismantle the services all together. As far as giving money to people on the street with cardboard signs, panhandlers, that sort of thing I believe we should do what feels right. I don't always give money but more and more I do because I think that to stand out on a smog chocked street corner you'd have to be either desperate or crazy and I have no problem helping people who are desperate or crazy. I also believe if you don't want to give, then don't, but I can't understand criticizing these people because, like I said, they have to be either desperate or crazy and I'm not into putting down those kind of people.
"Be kind"
-Illona Anne Cogswater, Daughter of God
I like to think we are a community here. Certainly, we all love PJ or we wouldn't even be here and isn't that how communities form - through common connections. I would certainly help anyone here regardless of difference of opinion. I believe that a strong sense of community is vital and is very much missing in our society. We seem to believe that taking care of number 1 is the best way to achieve our goals when I wonder if we wouldn't achieve higher individual and group goals by looking out for the other guy first instead. I don't know - I'm still working out these thoughts about community after all my reading this summer!
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I like to think we are a community here. Certainly, we all love PJ or we wouldn't even be here and isn't that how communities form - through common connections. I would certainly help anyone here regardless of difference of opinion. I believe that a strong sense of community is vital and is very much missing in our society. We seem to believe that taking care of number 1 is the best way to achieve our goals when I wonder if we wouldn't achieve higher individual and group goals by looking out for the other guy first instead. I don't know - I'm still working out these thoughts about community after all my reading this summer!
Thoughtful post.
But, I don't believe that looking after oneself first (barring those closest to us) equates to not caring about or not being willing to help others.
I could swear I've read this analogy here before and if so, apologies for the repetitiveness, but it's sort of like the oxygen mask that drops when you're on a plane. Use it first, then you can take care of others.
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,417
I like to think we are a community here. Certainly, we all love PJ or we wouldn't even be here and isn't that how communities form - through common connections. I would certainly help anyone here regardless of difference of opinion. I believe that a strong sense of community is vital and is very much missing in our society. We seem to believe that taking care of number 1 is the best way to achieve our goals when I wonder if we wouldn't achieve higher individual and group goals by looking out for the other guy first instead. I don't know - I'm still working out these thoughts about community after all my reading this summer!
Thoughtful post.
But, I don't believe that looking after oneself first (barring those closest to us) equates to not caring about or not being willing to help others.
I could swear I've read this analogy here before and if so, apologies for the repetitiveness, but it's sort of like the oxygen mask that drops when you're on a plane. Use it first, then you can take care of others.
Yeah, I agree with that concept. When I worked in the Human Services program at our local community college we taught something called "Trinity Safety". We'd ask student to place the following in order of safety priority (alphabetized here):
Agency
Client
Counselor
The correct order starting with who or what gets priority for safety is:
Agency
Counselor
Client.
Generally speaking, if the agency fails the counselor loses his or her job and the client has no where to turn.
This, of course, is all done in the best interest of the client.
(Please, everyone, understand that this relates to clients who seek help through an agency. I really don't mean to get start another argument about private vs social services. That is unrelated to the point being made here.)
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I like to think we are a community here. Certainly, we all love PJ or we wouldn't even be here and isn't that how communities form - through common connections. I would certainly help anyone here regardless of difference of opinion. I believe that a strong sense of community is vital and is very much missing in our society. We seem to believe that taking care of number 1 is the best way to achieve our goals when I wonder if we wouldn't achieve higher individual and group goals by looking out for the other guy first instead. I don't know - I'm still working out these thoughts about community after all my reading this summer!
Thoughtful post.
But, I don't believe that looking after oneself first (barring those closest to us) equates to not caring about or not being willing to help others.
I could swear I've read this analogy here before and if so, apologies for the repetitiveness, but it's sort of like the oxygen mask that drops when you're on a plane. Use it first, then you can take care of others.
I agree. How can we take care of others if we're not taking care of ourselves first? We have to be healthy in order to care for others. I've had friends who put their kids first on their long lists of priorities, but they got so run down and sick from not ensuring their own health that they would collapse, which in effect hurt the kids. Same with a job: without healthy and rested employees, the company will feel the strain from the mistakes made, the time off for sickness, etc, etc.
Got the wrong guy here. I don't speak to most of my own blood family as I see them as the enemy to the causes I hold dear. There are some folks here I could chat with, and others I'd like to set on fire. But that's just me...
Comments
How in the hell did a thread about finding common ground turn into a thread about handouts? :fp:
Nice try, Brian. You're a good man. :thumbup:
There... fixed it.
You're welcome.
Hail, Hail!!!
As for the OP, I agree, most people are probably not as hard as their politics would indicate, particularly one-on-one. The old adage "capitalism among the public, socialism among friends" would certainly apply in a lot of scenarios. Personally, I'm torn. From a purely philosophical or abstract perspective, I'm against the concept. I don't think it's "right" to take the livelihood of one person and give it to someone else based on yet another party's determination of need. That said, in practice, I have a hard time saying that we shouldn't provide some basic safety net for people who are temporarily down on their luck, but I believe there need to be strong controls and restrictions in place to prevent creating a culture of welfare and dependence.
Please don't speak for me. Ok?
Let's start with education. Instead of training kids how to grow up to be automatons who punch in and out on time and work mechanically on assembly lines or do service work, we would do well to teach critical thinking, encourage creativity- especially in those who favor an artistic approach to life, teach appropriate skepticism and, for those who really want to how to be good at assembly line and service work. If we taught people how to use their talents and feel good about what they do, we would have more productive people and fewer who are unproductive. But I would also allow for those who find living simply or as aesthetics- I would certainly honor those who follow the "One Straw Revolution" way of life.
But how we got from talking about being kind to one another to a discussion on hand outs and welfare and such beats the hell out of me!
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Really? :fp: How is this "handouts"? If they have reality shows/show up in newspapers, etc. we as a free society have the choice to watch them or not. If you're referring to "hand outs" as the money they inherit...I hope you don't/or haven't ever received/or will receive an inheriticance of any amount because you should come under the same scrutiny then I guess.
This is jealously. Next.
I'm talking about the massive tax cuts rewarded to the mega rich who haven't really done anything to earn them. While I do support incentives for creating jobs and businesses, just cutting taxes for people simply because they have money seems a bit counter-productive.
I assume you know that's what I'm talking about, and are just trying to pick another fight with me since you seem to crave my attention so much. You may want to explore why that is.
Actually you responded to my posts...not the other way around. Who's "attention seeking"? :?
Again, I will ask...what do you determine as the mega rich?
Did you get dropped on your head a lot as a child?
Not if you were the last Internet troll on earth.
...so says the person who no longer has aything to respond when basic logic gets brought down to the point they no longer have a leg to stand on. I'm still waiting for your definition of the "mega rich". :corn:
deep
I was thinking it was more like the Thirtheenth Floor.
Well, fuck, this is not where I wanted this to go but... "a thread war within a thread war thread"... that is pretty funny!
I may have said this before so excuse me if I repeat myself but AMT is a little like the Ramones- a dysfunctional family that stays together despite big differences: Joey- the beautiful New York Jewish left wing geek, Johnny- the rough neck no-bullshit right wing disciplinarian, Dee Dee- the creative lovable pain-in-the-ass and Tommy- the wizard if-nobody-else-can-do-it-I'll-learn-how architect (and several other notable members of the "family" who helped keep it going).
When asked if he would stick up for Joey Johnny once said (after thinking about it a moment), "Well, yeah, he's a part of the Ramones... and I love the Ramones... so, yeah".
That's what I was going for here. Maybe I'm wrong?
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Maybe we need to form a band then! Because that kind of loyalty exists in tighter, smaller groups.
Lately it seems that every time I visit AMT "We're a Happy Family" starts playing in my head.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Not yet but having just finished Mickey Leigh's excellent I Slept With Joey Ramone next up on my list is Commando. I don't have a copy on hand so thanks for the reminder to order one!
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I like to think we are a community here. Certainly, we all love PJ or we wouldn't even be here and isn't that how communities form - through common connections. I would certainly help anyone here regardless of difference of opinion. I believe that a strong sense of community is vital and is very much missing in our society. We seem to believe that taking care of number 1 is the best way to achieve our goals when I wonder if we wouldn't achieve higher individual and group goals by looking out for the other guy first instead. I don't know - I'm still working out these thoughts about community after all my reading this summer!
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
But, I don't believe that looking after oneself first (barring those closest to us) equates to not caring about or not being willing to help others.
I could swear I've read this analogy here before and if so, apologies for the repetitiveness, but it's sort of like the oxygen mask that drops when you're on a plane. Use it first, then you can take care of others.
Yeah, I agree with that concept. When I worked in the Human Services program at our local community college we taught something called "Trinity Safety". We'd ask student to place the following in order of safety priority (alphabetized here):
Agency
Client
Counselor
The correct order starting with who or what gets priority for safety is:
Agency
Counselor
Client.
Generally speaking, if the agency fails the counselor loses his or her job and the client has no where to turn.
This, of course, is all done in the best interest of the client.
(Please, everyone, understand that this relates to clients who seek help through an agency. I really don't mean to get start another argument about private vs social services. That is unrelated to the point being made here.)
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I agree. How can we take care of others if we're not taking care of ourselves first? We have to be healthy in order to care for others. I've had friends who put their kids first on their long lists of priorities, but they got so run down and sick from not ensuring their own health that they would collapse, which in effect hurt the kids. Same with a job: without healthy and rested employees, the company will feel the strain from the mistakes made, the time off for sickness, etc, etc.
a band from the AMT, that would be great. See you all in the lounge train car on friday.