Thread wars

brianlux

Interesting how words like "trollish" and "incendiary post" keep popping up here on AMT lately. Do ya get the feeling that if we were all stranded on a desert island together it would make Lord of the Flies look like milk and cookie time in the Kiddie Korral?

rollings

brianlux wrote:

There are lots of them on AMT. But I'll bet if push came to shove most if not all of us would stand up for or shell out to help each other in a tight spot. Jeez- I hope so.

The way that alot people communicate via the internet is certainly not the same way the same people would communicate face-to-face in person.

I think this is fairly well known

chadwick

rollings wrote:

brianlux wrote:

There are lots of them on AMT. But I'll bet if push came to shove most if not all of us would stand up for or shell out to help each other in a tight spot. Jeez- I hope so.

The way that alot people communicate via the internet is certainly not the same way the same people would communicate face-to-face in person.

I think this is fairly well known

in my daydreams i set villages/villagers ablaze. it's just playful & wishful thinking as i daydream a lot getting lost in my own mind, desires, and goals. :twisted:

rollings

chadwick wrote:

rollings wrote:

brianlux wrote:

There are lots of them on AMT. But I'll bet if push came to shove most if not all of us would stand up for or shell out to help each other in a tight spot. Jeez- I hope so.

The way that alot people communicate via the internet is certainly not the same way the same people would communicate face-to-face in person.

I think this is fairly well known

in my daydreams i set villages/villagers ablaze.

bullshit. I've heard you do this in real life.
oh, now wait,. ..that was with tanks...nevermind...

chadwick

^^^

riotgrl

Jeanwah wrote:

riotgrl wrote:

I agree with both of you - I was not expressing myself very well :( I'm in a situation at work where there is NO teamwork - very dog eat dog which, to me, is strange as I am a teacher, and it seems that should be very cooperative and very teamwork oriented. I don't understand people who manipulate to get ahead, to achieve ONLY their own goals. You have to care for yourself and those you are closest to first but what about helping others? working together? working as a team? I've read alot of Daniel Quinn and Jared Diamond this summer and have spent time looking at communal living of early man and just read that perception into brianlux's initial post.

I know where you're coming from, I've worked at a few corporate jobs that emphasized individual competition as well as teamwork (yeah, it didn't work at all, imagine collaborating with co-workers with a competitive mentality). Ishmael is my favorite book ever, and I have looked into communal living myself, even though I know it's not realistic for us. Which Diamond book would you suggest to read?

My post above was just about that in order to take care of others, and I'm all for that, we need to make sure that we're healthy first. Sorry if it seemed off topic.

I've only read Diamond's Gun, Germs, and Steel which was good. I've ordered The Third Chimpanzee and he has a new book coming out in December (I think?) called The world until Yesterday: What Can We Learn from Traditional Societies. The new book seems like it will embrace a lot of the ideas presented in Quinn's books.

Your post didn't seem off topic at all - I just wanted to clarify that I believe the same thing about taking time to care for yourself so you can be great at the other relationships and areas of your life.

riotgrl

brianlux wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

Fiji sounds like a great place! I saw an episode of "An Idiot Abroad" where he goes and spends time either in Fiji or another S. Pacific island that has a similar culture and even though Karl had great things to say about it, he mentioned being bored and ready to leave. It's not for everyone, I suppose.

Understandable, Jeanwah. We (at least here in the US) seemed to have moved more and more into a world where we think less and less of sharing things. And we think we deserve one of everything for ourselves. Everyone has their own car, their own TV, their own cell phone, etc. as if the world can cough up enough natural resources for 7 billion of us to do that. On top of that, we crave stimulation- we want something new to happen every 12 seconds. We can't go on like this indefinitely and it will be a difficult transition for a lot of people to adjust to what Kunstler refers to as "The Long Emergency" (great book BTW).

Making that adjustment will require cooperation, which is what I was trying to get at with this thread. Cooperation doesn't mean everyone agrees but it does require sitting down and discussing things like adults, as opposed to taunting and aggravating which seems to be the intent of some of the threads and posts on AMT lately- which is a bummer because for a while things seemed more reasonable here.

brianlux, I think cooperation is probably the word that I've been looking for as well. I've said countless times that we should be able to solve problems and make things better but first we have to be willing to cooperate and it seems as if some people prefer to argue for the sake of arguing rather than arguing (debating) to develop the best possible solution. Solutions which, in my opinion, should benefit all of us rather than just a few, and if we were cooperatively developing a plan and were willing to accept compromise then I certainly think our world would be a much better place.

brianlux

riotgrl wrote:

brianlux wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

Fiji sounds like a great place! I saw an episode of "An Idiot Abroad" where he goes and spends time either in Fiji or another S. Pacific island that has a similar culture and even though Karl had great things to say about it, he mentioned being bored and ready to leave. It's not for everyone, I suppose.

Understandable, Jeanwah. We (at least here in the US) seemed to have moved more and more into a world where we think less and less of sharing things. And we think we deserve one of everything for ourselves. Everyone has their own car, their own TV, their own cell phone, etc. as if the world can cough up enough natural resources for 7 billion of us to do that. On top of that, we crave stimulation- we want something new to happen every 12 seconds. We can't go on like this indefinitely and it will be a difficult transition for a lot of people to adjust to what Kunstler refers to as "The Long Emergency" (great book BTW).

Making that adjustment will require cooperation, which is what I was trying to get at with this thread. Cooperation doesn't mean everyone agrees but it does require sitting down and discussing things like adults, as opposed to taunting and aggravating which seems to be the intent of some of the threads and posts on AMT lately- which is a bummer because for a while things seemed more reasonable here.

brianlux, I think cooperation is probably the word that I've been looking for as well. I've said countless times that we should be able to solve problems and make things better but first we have to be willing to cooperate and it seems as if some people prefer to argue for the sake of arguing rather than arguing (debating) to develop the best possible solution. Solutions which, in my opinion, should benefit all of us rather than just a few, and if we were cooperatively developing a plan and were willing to accept compromise then I certainly think our world would be a much better place.

Exactly. Rather than argue for the sake of arguing maybe that energy would be better spent playing chess or something.

The other word I think that fits in here is "tolerance". (I know- it's one of those "politically correct" terms, but insert "accepting" or "unprejudiced" or something like that if you will.) It really bugs me that after living through the "we can change the world" 60's we still have major problems with homophobia, racism and forms of nationalism that lead to hatred and war.

moretonbayfig

'+1' the above quotes - Brianlux et al (tried to do it the correct way, but it went wonky)

My experience of the term 'politically correct' is that it is used to dismiss invitations to demonstrate compassion towards others. 'Fence sitting' also fits this category - absolutely nothing wrong surveying the territory of an issue, immersing in the 'greyness', rather taking the black/white dichotomy approach to issues. 'Debating' reminds me of primary school: "All students should wear school uniform", "The school canteen should not sell junk food" etc... now kids write down all of your arguments, the opposing arguments and rebuttals... no, it doesn't matter if you believe what you're saying or not, just that you beat the opposition... the best team in the school gets to debate the best teams from other schools in Parliament House chambers... and if you really excel a career in politics is yours for the taking...

hedonist

moretonbayfig wrote:

'+1' the above quotes - Brianlux et al (tried to do it the correct way, but it went wonky)

My experience of the term 'politically correct' is that it is used to dismiss invitations to demonstrate compassion towards others. 'Fence sitting' also fits this category - absolutely nothing wrong surveying the territory of an issue, immersing in the 'greyness', rather taking the black/white dichotomy approach to issues. 'Debating' reminds me of primary school: "All students should wear school uniform", "The school canteen should not sell junk food" etc... now kids write down all of your arguments, the opposing arguments and rebuttals... no, it doesn't matter if you believe what you're saying or not, just that you beat the opposition... the best team in the school gets to debate the best teams from other schools in Parliament House chambers... and if you really excel a career in politics is yours for the taking...

This is an interesting post; definitely get the 40 shades of gray - such is life.

(I'm thankful it's colorful too)

But as far as debating, I always saw it not as a way to win at all costs, but to (try to) see a particular issue from a different side. Not easy, for sure, but possible.

moretonbayfig

hedonist wrote:

moretonbayfig wrote:

'+1' the above quotes - Brianlux et al (tried to do it the correct way, but it went wonky)

My experience of the term 'politically correct' is that it is used to dismiss invitations to demonstrate compassion towards others. 'Fence sitting' also fits this category - absolutely nothing wrong surveying the territory of an issue, immersing in the 'greyness', rather taking the black/white dichotomy approach to issues. 'Debating' reminds me of primary school: "All students should wear school uniform", "The school canteen should not sell junk food" etc... now kids write down all of your arguments, the opposing arguments and rebuttals... no, it doesn't matter if you believe what you're saying or not, just that you beat the opposition... the best team in the school gets to debate the best teams from other schools in Parliament House chambers... and if you really excel a career in politics is yours for the taking...

This is an interesting post; definitely get the 40 shades of gray - such is life.

(I'm thankful it's colorful too)

But as far as debating, I always saw it not as a way to win at all costs, but to (try to) see a particular issue from a different side. Not easy, for sure, but possible.

brianlux

I want to take a minute to explore this idea: I think thread wars goes far beyond our little spats here on AMT. I seem to be seeing it all around me lately. People are anxious, testy, or worse, full of bitterness and spite. Does anyone else see this? And I'm not just talking about good, healthy debate. I mean hard core intentions. Just as one example- Texas lawyer Tom Head who predicts civil war if Obama is re-elected. That's just crazy. It's bating, unnecessary inciting of violence:

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/national/ ... re-elected

Have we really lost the ability to work together rationally as a whole? Maybe we deserve to fall into anarchy. I hope not because that is not just a fun Sex Pistols song.

peacefrompaul

brianlux wrote:

I want to take a minute to explore this idea: I think thread wars goes far beyond our little spats here on AMT. I seem to be seeing it all around me lately. People are anxious, testy, or worse, full of bitterness and spite. Does anyone else see this? And I'm not just talking about good, healthy debate. I mean hard core intentions. Just as one example- Texas lawyer Tom Head who predicts civil war if Obama is re-elected. That's just crazy. It's bating, unnecessary inciting of violence:

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/national/ ... re-elected

Have we really lost the ability to work together rationally as a whole? Maybe we deserve to fall into anarchy. I hope not because that is not just a fun Sex Pistols song.

Shit gets crazy around election time, Sir.

brianlux

peacefrompaul wrote:

brianlux wrote:

I want to take a minute to explore this idea: I think thread wars goes far beyond our little spats here on AMT. I seem to be seeing it all around me lately. People are anxious, testy, or worse, full of bitterness and spite. Does anyone else see this? And I'm not just talking about good, healthy debate. I mean hard core intentions. Just as one example- Texas lawyer Tom Head who predicts civil war if Obama is re-elected. That's just crazy. It's bating, unnecessary inciting of violence:

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/national/ ... re-elected

Have we really lost the ability to work together rationally as a whole? Maybe we deserve to fall into anarchy. I hope not because that is not just a fun Sex Pistols song.

Shit gets crazy around election time, Sir.

Yeah, I guess that's a very big part of it. In that case, I'll be glad to move on after November!

hedonist

peacefrompaul wrote:

brianlux wrote:

I want to take a minute to explore this idea: I think thread wars goes far beyond our little spats here on AMT. I seem to be seeing it all around me lately. People are anxious, testy, or worse, full of bitterness and spite. Does anyone else see this? And I'm not just talking about good, healthy debate. I mean hard core intentions. Just as one example- Texas lawyer Tom Head who predicts civil war if Obama is re-elected. That's just crazy. It's bating, unnecessary inciting of violence:

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/national/ ... re-elected

Have we really lost the ability to work together rationally as a whole? Maybe we deserve to fall into anarchy. I hope not because that is not just a fun Sex Pistols song.

Shit gets crazy around election time, Sir.

Totally agree. And, another thing I've noticed moreso lately: People seem to have become more self-absorbed and thus rude, whether driving (both pedestrians AND fellow drivers), at the market, at stores, etc.

It's the "I got mine, so fuck you" mentality.

The optimistic side of me is well aware of the many kind and considerate folks out there, but damn. Some need to get the fuck over and step outside of themselves, get a little slap in the face with humility and good manners.

Prince Of Dorkness

hedonist wrote:

It's the "I got mine, so fuck you" mentality.

There's that, for sure.

There's also - and we've seen this - people who seem to get an odd sense of glee at being willfully ignorant so long as they can harm someone else. It's a lot easier to tear people down than it is to build yourself up.

Instead of trying to make something of themselves, it's easier to tear someone else's world down. Or at least... try.


(and sorry... It's hard for me to keep from fucking with those people.)

hedonist

Prince Of Dorkness wrote:

hedonist wrote:

It's the "I got mine, so fuck you" mentality.

There's that, for sure.

There's also - and we've seen this - people who seem to get an odd sense of glee at being willfully ignorant so long as they can harm someone else. It's a lot easier to tear people down than it is to build yourself up.

Instead of trying to make something of themselves, it's easier to tear someone else's world down. Or at least... try.


(and sorry... It's hard for me to keep from fucking with those people.)

Not disagreeing, but I think the glee thing goes both ways sometimes.

And I understand the fucking-with-them need. Been there, once in a while still do that, if we're being honest here; but those folks who take pleasure in looking down on others for that sole purpose?

I figure those who see differently, will see.

dancepartner

guess I don't know what "thread wars" is about either. Comments though, seem to lean towards helping out where you can and don't be a part of the problem? If so, maybe I didn't make a mistake joining. Though I'm an avid PJ fan, I just became a member recently because I was looking for like-minded comrades and, heavy on the comrades. So I posted my plea yesterday and had 1 response -- the class clown weighed in. Yet, I've been reading many of your posts in "A moving Train" and I see this forum has much more depth so I want to brave another stab. So, does anyone here have the grit to read something that's a bit more than a soundbite and if so, will you give me your hand cuz as it stands -- I'm sinking. http://www.dancingpartners.info

Guess at this point I'm supposed to give a quote. Well, it will continue to remain: "so--whatcha giving?

brianlux

Dancepartner, check you PMs (Personal message) in "new messages".

dancepartner

okay looking for personal message spot... give me a minute.