This thread is gold Jerry, gold!
a band from the AMT, that would be great. See you all in the lounge train car on friday.
An AMT band would be fun! But I'll take the Ramones metaphor a step further. At least during it's inception, we'd all start out each number playing a different song and argue until somebody yells ONE-TWO-THREE-FOUR! again.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
(Snakeduck is welcome but please keep him away from anything incendiary)
Maybe he should be kept behind plexi screen with openings to pass him drinks and converse with him.... Much safer...
My old band used to play this meth-head bar called the "Monkey Bizness" and it had real life monkeys confined exactly as you describe. Those poor animals were subjected to a cloud of cigarette smoke and obnoxious metal music each and every day of their wretched little lives. Felt so bad for them, but they must have died or escaped or the health deptarment finally said no deal as they were eventually replaced with stuffed toy monkeys.
Just be careful when you reach in my cage as I am hell on small digit manipulation. All I need is one finger... I also bite.
....and it had real life monkeys confined exactly as you describe. Those poor animals were subjected to a cloud of cigarette smoke and obnoxious metal music each and every day of their wretched little lives. .
My old band used to play this meth-head bar called the "Monkey Bizness" and it had real life monkeys confined exactly as you describe. Those poor animals were subjected to a cloud of cigarette smoke and obnoxious metal music each and every day of their wretched little lives. Felt so bad for them, but they must have died or escaped or the health deptarment finally said no deal as they were eventually replaced with stuffed toy monkeys.
Just be careful when you reach in my cage as I am hell on small digit manipulation. All I need is one finger... I also bite.
Oh man, that's heartbreaking. I love and respect monkeys and apes - can be amazingly fierce but tender to the point of awe.
I and my small digits shall keep away from your cage, sir!
I like to think we are a community here. Certainly, we all love PJ or we wouldn't even be here and isn't that how communities form - through common connections. I would certainly help anyone here regardless of difference of opinion. I believe that a strong sense of community is vital and is very much missing in our society. We seem to believe that taking care of number 1 is the best way to achieve our goals when I wonder if we wouldn't achieve higher individual and group goals by looking out for the other guy first instead. I don't know - I'm still working out these thoughts about community after all my reading this summer!
Thoughtful post.
But, I don't believe that looking after oneself first (barring those closest to us) equates to not caring about or not being willing to help others.
I could swear I've read this analogy here before and if so, apologies for the repetitiveness, but it's sort of like the oxygen mask that drops when you're on a plane. Use it first, then you can take care of others.
I agree. How can we take care of others if we're not taking care of ourselves first? We have to be healthy in order to care for others. I've had friends who put their kids first on their long lists of priorities, but they got so run down and sick from not ensuring their own health that they would collapse, which in effect hurt the kids. Same with a job: without healthy and rested employees, the company will feel the strain from the mistakes made, the time off for sickness, etc, etc.
I agree with both of you - I was not expressing myself very well :( I'm in a situation at work where there is NO teamwork - very dog eat dog which, to me, is strange as I am a teacher, and it seems that should be very cooperative and very teamwork oriented. I don't understand people who manipulate to get ahead, to achieve ONLY their own goals. You have to care for yourself and those you are closest to first but what about helping others? working together? working as a team? I've read alot of Daniel Quinn and Jared Diamond this summer and have spent time looking at communal living of early man and just read that perception into brianlux's initial post.
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I agree with both of you - I was not expressing myself very well :( I'm in a situation at work where there is NO teamwork - very dog eat dog which, to me, is strange as I am a teacher, and it seems that should be very cooperative and very teamwork oriented. I don't understand people who manipulate to get ahead, to achieve ONLY their own goals. You have to care for yourself and those you are closest to first but what about helping others? working together? working as a team? I've read alot of Daniel Quinn and Jared Diamond this summer and have spent time looking at communal living of early man and just read that perception into brianlux's initial post.
I get where you're coming from (and from what I've seen, you typically express yourself quite well).
I'm fortunately not in a position to have to be around the "me, at the expense of everyone else" mentalities (I've been, and they suck - as in the life out of you).
You sound like you're hanging in there pretty OK
Love Quinn! He's good for the soul and mind.
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,420
I've read alot of Daniel Quinn and Jared Diamond this summer and have spent time looking at communal living of early man and just read that perception into brianlux's initial post.
This reminds of the attempts and pseudo-attempts by several groups of people to form co-operatives and communes in the sixties and seventies. Most of them failed, of course, but I wonder if that was because most were started by younger people who didn't have enough practical life experience to make better plans. I looked into the idea myself back then but knew enough to know I didn't know enough to make it happen. The problem is, now that I'm older, I have much more life experience but don't have enough of that youthful energy.
I had my business in a book co-op from 2007 through 2011 that was a microcosm of the communal experience. It was a rewarding experience in many ways but very difficult. There was a lot of in-fighting and so much competition that I began to refer to it as a "competitive" as opposed to a "cooperative". My peace keeping efforts often made little if any difference. I think what it boils down to is that in our culture it is very hard for us to be co-operative when we are used to being competitive. It's interesting because I did quite well with my business in the co-op and that led to some members hinting at the idea that it was easy for me to talk about being cooperative when I was doing so well. But I did well because I kept my book selection strong in sections that were weak within the general co-op rather than, as many others did, compete strongly within the same categories. I kept saying, "Lets all pick a few categories that we like that are different from each others' and keep them strong so that the co-op as a whole will thrive." But people would say, "I'm not going to be limited in what I can sell or have anybody dictate to me what I can or can't do." And I'd think, "We'll, OK, so why are you in a co-op?"
It really made me wonder about our chances (in this culture at this time at least) of learning how to cooperate. I think it has to start in childhood.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I agree with both of you - I was not expressing myself very well :( I'm in a situation at work where there is NO teamwork - very dog eat dog which, to me, is strange as I am a teacher, and it seems that should be very cooperative and very teamwork oriented. I don't understand people who manipulate to get ahead, to achieve ONLY their own goals. You have to care for yourself and those you are closest to first but what about helping others? working together? working as a team? I've read alot of Daniel Quinn and Jared Diamond this summer and have spent time looking at communal living of early man and just read that perception into brianlux's initial post.
I get where you're coming from (and from what I've seen, you typically express yourself quite well).
I'm fortunately not in a position to have to be around the "me, at the expense of everyone else" mentalities (I've been, and they suck - as in the life out of you).
You sound like you're hanging in there pretty OK
Love Quinn! He's good for the soul and mind.
Thank you for the kind words! Luckily, I hang in there OK - teachers seem to enjoy beating their head against the wall every day which makes it a bit easier
And yes, Quinn is good for the soul and mind. It has been an enjoyable summer of reading
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
This reminds of the attempts and pseudo-attempts by several groups of people to form co-operatives and communes in the sixties and seventies. Most of them failed, of course, but I wonder if that was because most were started by younger people who didn't have enough practical life experience to make better plans. I looked into the idea myself back then but knew enough to know I didn't know enough to make it happen. The problem is, now that I'm older, I have much more life experience but don't have enough of that youthful energy.
My brother has also read Quinn and we discussed the idea of communal living. Did you know there is a successful commune in Missouri called Dancing Rabbit? Very interesting idea - my husband thought I'd gone completely around the bend when I mentioned it But I do like the idea - I'm struggling right now with how to live in THIS world but incorporate some of those cooperative communal ideals on a smaller scale.
I had my business in a book co-op from 2007 through 2011 that was a microcosm of the communal experience. It was a rewarding experience in many ways but very difficult. There was a lot of in-fighting and so much competition that I began to refer to it as a "competitive" as opposed to a "cooperative". My peace keeping efforts often made little if any difference. I think what it boils down to is that in our culture it is very hard for us to be co-operative when we are used to being competitive. It's interesting because I did quite well with my business in the co-op and that led to some members hinting at the idea that it was easy for me to talk about being cooperative when I was doing so well. But I did well because I kept my book selection strong in sections that were weak within the general co-op rather than, as many others did, compete strongly within the same categories. I kept saying, "Lets all pick a few categories that we like that are different from each others' and keep them strong so that the co-op as a whole will thrive." But people would say, "I'm not going to be limited in what I can sell or have anybody dictate to me what I can or can't do." And I'd think, "We'll, OK, so why are you in a co-op?"
Now that sounds like something I would love to do! How does a book co-op work exactly? I don't think I will be able to teach for another 15 years the way our educational system is going right now and I keep looking for a long term plan to start moving away from teaching but there is NO way I can go back to the corporate world. But I do understand people preferring to be competitive rather than cooperative. I work with a girl that seems, on the surface, to very much want to be cooperative but she is sneaky and undermines her very own efforts to be cooperative all so she can get the credit or to advance her own career. I guess as I get older, I would rather see my efforts be a part of something bigger than me - I don't need to have all the credit (although, I am still interested in having some credit - that competitive streak is very strong still).
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I agree with both of you - I was not expressing myself very well :( I'm in a situation at work where there is NO teamwork - very dog eat dog which, to me, is strange as I am a teacher, and it seems that should be very cooperative and very teamwork oriented. I don't understand people who manipulate to get ahead, to achieve ONLY their own goals. You have to care for yourself and those you are closest to first but what about helping others? working together? working as a team? I've read alot of Daniel Quinn and Jared Diamond this summer and have spent time looking at communal living of early man and just read that perception into brianlux's initial post.
I know where you're coming from, I've worked at a few corporate jobs that emphasized individual competition as well as teamwork (yeah, it didn't work at all, imagine collaborating with co-workers with a competitive mentality). Ishmael is my favorite book ever, and I have looked into communal living myself, even though I know it's not realistic for us. Which Diamond book would you suggest to read?
My post above was just about that in order to take care of others, and I'm all for that, we need to make sure that we're healthy first. Sorry if it seemed off topic.
I kept saying, "Lets all pick a few categories that we like that are different from each others' and keep them strong so that the co-op as a whole will thrive." But people would say, "I'm not going to be limited in what I can sell or have anybody dictate to me what I can or can't do." And I'd think, "We'll, OK, so why are you in a co-op?"
It really made me wonder about our chances (in this culture at this time at least) of learning how to cooperate. I think it has to start in childhood.
Makes you want to bang your head against a wall, doesn't it? I'm convinced that to live in a real community centered area, I have to move to either a commune, or a socialist country. Trying to change that individuality that Americans possess seems extremely difficult to convert. I do have an idea for community sharing though. I want to start an exchange in the community where participants would share items of interest, like large tools or recreational toys like bikes or a canoe. Why should we buy these items so we all individually have them? Why not share in the community so we don't go broke with the need for materialism? Do I really need to buy a chainsaw if I only need it for a few hours? Ya know?
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,420
I kept saying, "Lets all pick a few categories that we like that are different from each others' and keep them strong so that the co-op as a whole will thrive." But people would say, "I'm not going to be limited in what I can sell or have anybody dictate to me what I can or can't do." And I'd think, "We'll, OK, so why are you in a co-op?"
It really made me wonder about our chances (in this culture at this time at least) of learning how to cooperate. I think it has to start in childhood.
Makes you want to bang your head against a wall, doesn't it? I'm convinced that to live in a real community centered area, I have to move to either a commune, or a socialist country. Trying to change that individuality that Americans possess seems extremely difficult to convert. I do have an idea for community sharing though. I want to start an exchange in the community where participants would share items of interest, like large tools or recreational toys like bikes or a canoe. Why should we buy these items so we all individually have them? Why not share in the community so we don't go broke with the need for materialism? Do I really need to buy a chainsaw if I only need it for a few hours? Ya know?
I just now noticed your post, Jeanwah. Great ideas here! My wife spent some time in Fiji and a good friend of hers lived there for a while . They tell stories about how this idea of sharing things is quite common there- so much so that people walk into other peoples house and take things they need and no one cares because it's still out there for them to use. Both these ladies will tell you that they have never know happier people or a more contented way of life. And this is a fact: with all our ownership and greed we are miserable compared to these people.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I kept saying, "Lets all pick a few categories that we like that are different from each others' and keep them strong so that the co-op as a whole will thrive." But people would say, "I'm not going to be limited in what I can sell or have anybody dictate to me what I can or can't do." And I'd think, "We'll, OK, so why are you in a co-op?"
It really made me wonder about our chances (in this culture at this time at least) of learning how to cooperate. I think it has to start in childhood.
Makes you want to bang your head against a wall, doesn't it? I'm convinced that to live in a real community centered area, I have to move to either a commune, or a socialist country. Trying to change that individuality that Americans possess seems extremely difficult to convert. I do have an idea for community sharing though. I want to start an exchange in the community where participants would share items of interest, like large tools or recreational toys like bikes or a canoe. Why should we buy these items so we all individually have them? Why not share in the community so we don't go broke with the need for materialism? Do I really need to buy a chainsaw if I only need it for a few hours? Ya know?
I just now noticed your post, Jeanwah. Great ideas here! My wife spent some time in Fiji and a good friend of hers lived there for a while . They tell stories about how this idea of sharing things is quite common there- so much so that people walk into other peoples house and take things they need and no one cares because it's still out there for them to use. Both these ladies will tell you that they have never know happier people or a more contented way of life. And this is a fact: with all our ownership and greed we are miserable compared to these people.
Fiji sounds like a great place! I saw an episode of "An Idiot Abroad" where he goes and spends time either in Fiji or another S. Pacific island that has a similar culture and even though Karl had great things to say about it, he mentioned being bored and ready to leave. It's not for everyone, I suppose.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,420
Fiji sounds like a great place! I saw an episode of "An Idiot Abroad" where he goes and spends time either in Fiji or another S. Pacific island that has a similar culture and even though Karl had great things to say about it, he mentioned being bored and ready to leave. It's not for everyone, I suppose.
Understandable, Jeanwah. We (at least here in the US) seemed to have moved more and more into a world where we think less and less of sharing things. And we think we deserve one of everything for ourselves. Everyone has their own car, their own TV, their own cell phone, etc. as if the world can cough up enough natural resources for 7 billion of us to do that. On top of that, we crave stimulation- we want something new to happen every 12 seconds. We can't go on like this indefinitely and it will be a difficult transition for a lot of people to adjust to what Kunstler refers to as "The Long Emergency" (great book BTW).
Making that adjustment will require cooperation, which is what I was trying to get at with this thread. Cooperation doesn't mean everyone agrees but it does require sitting down and discussing things like adults, as opposed to taunting and aggravating which seems to be the intent of some of the threads and posts on AMT lately- which is a bummer because for a while things seemed more reasonable here.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
"Try to not spook the horse."
-Neil Young
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,420
Interesting how words like "trollish" and "incendiary post" keep popping up here on AMT lately. Do ya get the feeling that if we were all stranded on a desert island together it would make Lord of the Flies look like milk and cookie time in the Kiddie Korral?
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
There are lots of them on AMT. But I'll bet if push came to shove most if not all of us would stand up for or shell out to help each other in a tight spot. Jeez- I hope so.
The way that alot people communicate via the internet is certainly not the same way the same people would communicate face-to-face in person.
There are lots of them on AMT. But I'll bet if push came to shove most if not all of us would stand up for or shell out to help each other in a tight spot. Jeez- I hope so.
The way that alot people communicate via the internet is certainly not the same way the same people would communicate face-to-face in person.
I think this is fairly well known
in my daydreams i set villages/villagers ablaze. it's just playful & wishful thinking as i daydream a lot getting lost in my own mind, desires, and goals. :twisted:
There are lots of them on AMT. But I'll bet if push came to shove most if not all of us would stand up for or shell out to help each other in a tight spot. Jeez- I hope so.
The way that alot people communicate via the internet is certainly not the same way the same people would communicate face-to-face in person.
I think this is fairly well known
in my daydreams i set villages/villagers ablaze.
bullshit. I've heard you do this in real life.
oh, now wait,. ..that was with tanks...nevermind...
I agree with both of you - I was not expressing myself very well :( I'm in a situation at work where there is NO teamwork - very dog eat dog which, to me, is strange as I am a teacher, and it seems that should be very cooperative and very teamwork oriented. I don't understand people who manipulate to get ahead, to achieve ONLY their own goals. You have to care for yourself and those you are closest to first but what about helping others? working together? working as a team? I've read alot of Daniel Quinn and Jared Diamond this summer and have spent time looking at communal living of early man and just read that perception into brianlux's initial post.
I know where you're coming from, I've worked at a few corporate jobs that emphasized individual competition as well as teamwork (yeah, it didn't work at all, imagine collaborating with co-workers with a competitive mentality). Ishmael is my favorite book ever, and I have looked into communal living myself, even though I know it's not realistic for us. Which Diamond book would you suggest to read?
My post above was just about that in order to take care of others, and I'm all for that, we need to make sure that we're healthy first. Sorry if it seemed off topic.
I've only read Diamond's Gun, Germs, and Steel which was good. I've ordered The Third Chimpanzee and he has a new book coming out in December (I think?) called The world until Yesterday: What Can We Learn from Traditional Societies. The new book seems like it will embrace a lot of the ideas presented in Quinn's books.
Your post didn't seem off topic at all - I just wanted to clarify that I believe the same thing about taking time to care for yourself so you can be great at the other relationships and areas of your life.
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
Fiji sounds like a great place! I saw an episode of "An Idiot Abroad" where he goes and spends time either in Fiji or another S. Pacific island that has a similar culture and even though Karl had great things to say about it, he mentioned being bored and ready to leave. It's not for everyone, I suppose.
Understandable, Jeanwah. We (at least here in the US) seemed to have moved more and more into a world where we think less and less of sharing things. And we think we deserve one of everything for ourselves. Everyone has their own car, their own TV, their own cell phone, etc. as if the world can cough up enough natural resources for 7 billion of us to do that. On top of that, we crave stimulation- we want something new to happen every 12 seconds. We can't go on like this indefinitely and it will be a difficult transition for a lot of people to adjust to what Kunstler refers to as "The Long Emergency" (great book BTW).
Making that adjustment will require cooperation, which is what I was trying to get at with this thread. Cooperation doesn't mean everyone agrees but it does require sitting down and discussing things like adults, as opposed to taunting and aggravating which seems to be the intent of some of the threads and posts on AMT lately- which is a bummer because for a while things seemed more reasonable here.
brianlux, I think cooperation is probably the word that I've been looking for as well. I've said countless times that we should be able to solve problems and make things better but first we have to be willing to cooperate and it seems as if some people prefer to argue for the sake of arguing rather than arguing (debating) to develop the best possible solution. Solutions which, in my opinion, should benefit all of us rather than just a few, and if we were cooperatively developing a plan and were willing to accept compromise then I certainly think our world would be a much better place.
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,420
Fiji sounds like a great place! I saw an episode of "An Idiot Abroad" where he goes and spends time either in Fiji or another S. Pacific island that has a similar culture and even though Karl had great things to say about it, he mentioned being bored and ready to leave. It's not for everyone, I suppose.
Understandable, Jeanwah. We (at least here in the US) seemed to have moved more and more into a world where we think less and less of sharing things. And we think we deserve one of everything for ourselves. Everyone has their own car, their own TV, their own cell phone, etc. as if the world can cough up enough natural resources for 7 billion of us to do that. On top of that, we crave stimulation- we want something new to happen every 12 seconds. We can't go on like this indefinitely and it will be a difficult transition for a lot of people to adjust to what Kunstler refers to as "The Long Emergency" (great book BTW).
Making that adjustment will require cooperation, which is what I was trying to get at with this thread. Cooperation doesn't mean everyone agrees but it does require sitting down and discussing things like adults, as opposed to taunting and aggravating which seems to be the intent of some of the threads and posts on AMT lately- which is a bummer because for a while things seemed more reasonable here.
brianlux, I think cooperation is probably the word that I've been looking for as well. I've said countless times that we should be able to solve problems and make things better but first we have to be willing to cooperate and it seems as if some people prefer to argue for the sake of arguing rather than arguing (debating) to develop the best possible solution. Solutions which, in my opinion, should benefit all of us rather than just a few, and if we were cooperatively developing a plan and were willing to accept compromise then I certainly think our world would be a much better place.
Exactly. Rather than argue for the sake of arguing maybe that energy would be better spent playing chess or something.
The other word I think that fits in here is "tolerance". (I know- it's one of those "politically correct" terms, but insert "accepting" or "unprejudiced" or something like that if you will.) It really bugs me that after living through the "we can change the world" 60's we still have major problems with homophobia, racism and forms of nationalism that lead to hatred and war.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
'+1' the above quotes - Brianlux et al (tried to do it the correct way, but it went wonky)
My experience of the term 'politically correct' is that it is used to dismiss invitations to demonstrate compassion towards others. 'Fence sitting' also fits this category - absolutely nothing wrong surveying the territory of an issue, immersing in the 'greyness', rather taking the black/white dichotomy approach to issues. 'Debating' reminds me of primary school: "All students should wear school uniform", "The school canteen should not sell junk food" etc... now kids write down all of your arguments, the opposing arguments and rebuttals... no, it doesn't matter if you believe what you're saying or not, just that you beat the opposition... the best team in the school gets to debate the best teams from other schools in Parliament House chambers... and if you really excel a career in politics is yours for the taking...
'+1' the above quotes - Brianlux et al (tried to do it the correct way, but it went wonky)
My experience of the term 'politically correct' is that it is used to dismiss invitations to demonstrate compassion towards others. 'Fence sitting' also fits this category - absolutely nothing wrong surveying the territory of an issue, immersing in the 'greyness', rather taking the black/white dichotomy approach to issues. 'Debating' reminds me of primary school: "All students should wear school uniform", "The school canteen should not sell junk food" etc... now kids write down all of your arguments, the opposing arguments and rebuttals... no, it doesn't matter if you believe what you're saying or not, just that you beat the opposition... the best team in the school gets to debate the best teams from other schools in Parliament House chambers... and if you really excel a career in politics is yours for the taking...
This is an interesting post; definitely get the 40 shades of gray - such is life.
(I'm thankful it's colorful too)
But as far as debating, I always saw it not as a way to win at all costs, but to (try to) see a particular issue from a different side. Not easy, for sure, but possible.
Comments
An AMT band would be fun! But I'll take the Ramones metaphor a step further. At least during it's inception, we'd all start out each number playing a different song and argue until somebody yells ONE-TWO-THREE-FOUR! again.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Lounge car, Friday!
(Snakeduck is welcome but please keep him away from anything incendiary)
I think a lot of mothers do... until we know better!
My old band used to play this meth-head bar called the "Monkey Bizness" and it had real life monkeys confined exactly as you describe. Those poor animals were subjected to a cloud of cigarette smoke and obnoxious metal music each and every day of their wretched little lives. Felt so bad for them, but they must have died or escaped or the health deptarment finally said no deal as they were eventually replaced with stuffed toy monkeys.
Just be careful when you reach in my cage as I am hell on small digit manipulation. All I need is one finger... I also bite.
That's shit.
I and my small digits shall keep away from your cage, sir!
I agree with both of you - I was not expressing myself very well :( I'm in a situation at work where there is NO teamwork - very dog eat dog which, to me, is strange as I am a teacher, and it seems that should be very cooperative and very teamwork oriented. I don't understand people who manipulate to get ahead, to achieve ONLY their own goals. You have to care for yourself and those you are closest to first but what about helping others? working together? working as a team? I've read alot of Daniel Quinn and Jared Diamond this summer and have spent time looking at communal living of early man and just read that perception into brianlux's initial post.
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
I'm fortunately not in a position to have to be around the "me, at the expense of everyone else" mentalities (I've been, and they suck - as in the life out of you).
You sound like you're hanging in there pretty OK
Love Quinn! He's good for the soul and mind.
This reminds of the attempts and pseudo-attempts by several groups of people to form co-operatives and communes in the sixties and seventies. Most of them failed, of course, but I wonder if that was because most were started by younger people who didn't have enough practical life experience to make better plans. I looked into the idea myself back then but knew enough to know I didn't know enough to make it happen. The problem is, now that I'm older, I have much more life experience but don't have enough of that youthful energy.
I had my business in a book co-op from 2007 through 2011 that was a microcosm of the communal experience. It was a rewarding experience in many ways but very difficult. There was a lot of in-fighting and so much competition that I began to refer to it as a "competitive" as opposed to a "cooperative". My peace keeping efforts often made little if any difference. I think what it boils down to is that in our culture it is very hard for us to be co-operative when we are used to being competitive. It's interesting because I did quite well with my business in the co-op and that led to some members hinting at the idea that it was easy for me to talk about being cooperative when I was doing so well. But I did well because I kept my book selection strong in sections that were weak within the general co-op rather than, as many others did, compete strongly within the same categories. I kept saying, "Lets all pick a few categories that we like that are different from each others' and keep them strong so that the co-op as a whole will thrive." But people would say, "I'm not going to be limited in what I can sell or have anybody dictate to me what I can or can't do." And I'd think, "We'll, OK, so why are you in a co-op?"
It really made me wonder about our chances (in this culture at this time at least) of learning how to cooperate. I think it has to start in childhood.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Thank you for the kind words! Luckily, I hang in there OK - teachers seem to enjoy beating their head against the wall every day which makes it a bit easier
And yes, Quinn is good for the soul and mind. It has been an enjoyable summer of reading
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
My brother has also read Quinn and we discussed the idea of communal living. Did you know there is a successful commune in Missouri called Dancing Rabbit? Very interesting idea - my husband thought I'd gone completely around the bend when I mentioned it
Now that sounds like something I would love to do! How does a book co-op work exactly? I don't think I will be able to teach for another 15 years the way our educational system is going right now and I keep looking for a long term plan to start moving away from teaching but there is NO way I can go back to the corporate world. But I do understand people preferring to be competitive rather than cooperative. I work with a girl that seems, on the surface, to very much want to be cooperative but she is sneaky and undermines her very own efforts to be cooperative all so she can get the credit or to advance her own career. I guess as I get older, I would rather see my efforts be a part of something bigger than me - I don't need to have all the credit (although, I am still interested in having some credit - that competitive streak is very strong still).
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
The only entity that I don't want to help anymore than I'm forced to is the government.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Ummm, it would be the most dysfunctional band ever. Just imagine Courtney Love, Axl Rose, Lars, and Billy Corgan......
:corn: If you put it like that, It really would/could get ugly.
I know where you're coming from, I've worked at a few corporate jobs that emphasized individual competition as well as teamwork (yeah, it didn't work at all, imagine collaborating with co-workers with a competitive mentality). Ishmael is my favorite book ever, and I have looked into communal living myself, even though I know it's not realistic for us. Which Diamond book would you suggest to read?
My post above was just about that in order to take care of others, and I'm all for that, we need to make sure that we're healthy first. Sorry if it seemed off topic.
Makes you want to bang your head against a wall, doesn't it? I'm convinced that to live in a real community centered area, I have to move to either a commune, or a socialist country. Trying to change that individuality that Americans possess seems extremely difficult to convert. I do have an idea for community sharing though. I want to start an exchange in the community where participants would share items of interest, like large tools or recreational toys like bikes or a canoe. Why should we buy these items so we all individually have them? Why not share in the community so we don't go broke with the need for materialism? Do I really need to buy a chainsaw if I only need it for a few hours? Ya know?
I just now noticed your post, Jeanwah. Great ideas here! My wife spent some time in Fiji and a good friend of hers lived there for a while . They tell stories about how this idea of sharing things is quite common there- so much so that people walk into other peoples house and take things they need and no one cares because it's still out there for them to use. Both these ladies will tell you that they have never know happier people or a more contented way of life. And this is a fact: with all our ownership and greed we are miserable compared to these people.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Fiji sounds like a great place! I saw an episode of "An Idiot Abroad" where he goes and spends time either in Fiji or another S. Pacific island that has a similar culture and even though Karl had great things to say about it, he mentioned being bored and ready to leave. It's not for everyone, I suppose.
Understandable, Jeanwah. We (at least here in the US) seemed to have moved more and more into a world where we think less and less of sharing things. And we think we deserve one of everything for ourselves. Everyone has their own car, their own TV, their own cell phone, etc. as if the world can cough up enough natural resources for 7 billion of us to do that. On top of that, we crave stimulation- we want something new to happen every 12 seconds. We can't go on like this indefinitely and it will be a difficult transition for a lot of people to adjust to what Kunstler refers to as "The Long Emergency" (great book BTW).
Making that adjustment will require cooperation, which is what I was trying to get at with this thread. Cooperation doesn't mean everyone agrees but it does require sitting down and discussing things like adults, as opposed to taunting and aggravating which seems to be the intent of some of the threads and posts on AMT lately- which is a bummer because for a while things seemed more reasonable here.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
The way that alot people communicate via the internet is certainly not the same way the same people would communicate face-to-face in person.
I think this is fairly well known
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
bullshit. I've heard you do this in real life.
oh, now wait,. ..that was with tanks...nevermind...
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
I've only read Diamond's Gun, Germs, and Steel which was good. I've ordered The Third Chimpanzee and he has a new book coming out in December (I think?) called The world until Yesterday: What Can We Learn from Traditional Societies. The new book seems like it will embrace a lot of the ideas presented in Quinn's books.
Your post didn't seem off topic at all - I just wanted to clarify that I believe the same thing about taking time to care for yourself so you can be great at the other relationships and areas of your life.
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
brianlux, I think cooperation is probably the word that I've been looking for as well. I've said countless times that we should be able to solve problems and make things better but first we have to be willing to cooperate and it seems as if some people prefer to argue for the sake of arguing rather than arguing (debating) to develop the best possible solution. Solutions which, in my opinion, should benefit all of us rather than just a few, and if we were cooperatively developing a plan and were willing to accept compromise then I certainly think our world would be a much better place.
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
Exactly. Rather than argue for the sake of arguing maybe that energy would be better spent playing chess or something.
The other word I think that fits in here is "tolerance". (I know- it's one of those "politically correct" terms, but insert "accepting" or "unprejudiced" or something like that if you will.) It really bugs me that after living through the "we can change the world" 60's we still have major problems with homophobia, racism and forms of nationalism that lead to hatred and war.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
My experience of the term 'politically correct' is that it is used to dismiss invitations to demonstrate compassion towards others. 'Fence sitting' also fits this category - absolutely nothing wrong surveying the territory of an issue, immersing in the 'greyness', rather taking the black/white dichotomy approach to issues. 'Debating' reminds me of primary school: "All students should wear school uniform", "The school canteen should not sell junk food" etc... now kids write down all of your arguments, the opposing arguments and rebuttals... no, it doesn't matter if you believe what you're saying or not, just that you beat the opposition... the best team in the school gets to debate the best teams from other schools in Parliament House chambers... and if you really excel a career in politics is yours for the taking...
(I'm thankful it's colorful too)
But as far as debating, I always saw it not as a way to win at all costs, but to (try to) see a particular issue from a different side. Not easy, for sure, but possible.