Colorado movie killings spark rise in gun sales

Hugh Freaking Dillon

pandora wrote:

redrock wrote:

redrock wrote:

I'm done responding to you and I would rather you be done with me - so let's leave it at that please.

I wonder why?

I'll take "answers that are obvious to the rest of us" for $1000, Alex.

*pee-tew, pee-tew, pee-tew, pee-tew*

"and that's our final Daily Double".

Byrnzie

Godfather. wrote:

the people have spoken

Godfather.

Meanwhile...


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/ju ... e-daughter

Pennsylvania man arrested and daughter safe after three shot dead

Kevin Cleeves, 36, was caught in Ohio after fleeing the scene of a shooting where he allegedly abducted his 4-year-old daughter

Reuters
guardian.co.uk, Saturday 28 July 2012


Police in Ohio on Saturday arrested a Pennsylvania man suspected of fatally shooting three people near his hometown and then fleeing with his 4-year-old daughter, officials said.

Police rescued the girl unharmed when they arrested the suspect, Kevin Cleeves, 36, of Waynesboro, Pennsylvania, at about 5am ET, said Detective Sgt. Jordan Yacovone of the Austintown, Ohio, police department.

"The 4-year-old was with him. She's fine," he said.

Cleeves was arrested in the parking lot of a shopping plaza, he said, in Austintown, just west of Youngstown, Ohio. Officers spotted the car because of an Amber Alert, issued in cases of alleged child abductions.

The shootings occurred about 9pm ET on Friday in the driveway of a home in Quincy Township, Pennsylvania, southwest of Harrisburg, according to Pennsylvania state trooper Adam Reed.

The three victims, all adults, were shot dead in a car, he said. Quincy Township is about 250 miles from Austintown. The identities of the dead were not immediately released.

Reed said he did not know the motive for the shootings, but local media reports said Cleeves had confronted his wife about custody arrangements for their daughter Leia.

"He abducted his 4-year-old daughter from the scene of the shooting," Reed said.

Cleeves was jailed in Ohio awaiting extradition to Pennsylvania, authorities said.

brianlux

What a jaded world. I remember when "vicious" meant you "want to hit me with a flower". Now... it's a row of guns that stretches to the moon and back or around the earth ten time or what ever the analogy is.

Thump.
There.
I hit'cha with a flower.

Thoughts_Arrive

It's in the constitution maaaan.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

Byrnzie wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

the people have spoken

Godfather.

Meanwhile...


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/ju ... e-daughter

Pennsylvania man arrested and daughter safe after three shot dead

in the minds of the Constitution Crowd, all they are thinking when they see something like this is "too bad the four weren't armed with assault weapons, had they been responsible gun owners (hey, what gun-toter isn't responsible?), they all would have shot him directly through the heart with zero danger to anyone else around and all of this could have been avoided, and they all would have flown the girl back to the safety of the Fortress of Solitude".

Godfather.

Byrnzie wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

the people have spoken

Godfather.

Meanwhile...


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/ju ... e-daughter

Pennsylvania man arrested and daughter safe after three shot dead

Kevin Cleeves, 36, was caught in Ohio after fleeing the scene of a shooting where he allegedly abducted his 4-year-old daughter

Reuters
guardian.co.uk, Saturday 28 July 2012


Police in Ohio on Saturday arrested a Pennsylvania man suspected of fatally shooting three people near his hometown and then fleeing with his 4-year-old daughter, officials said.

Police rescued the girl unharmed when they arrested the suspect, Kevin Cleeves, 36, of Waynesboro, Pennsylvania, at about 5am ET, said Detective Sgt. Jordan Yacovone of the Austintown, Ohio, police department.

"The 4-year-old was with him. She's fine," he said.

Cleeves was arrested in the parking lot of a shopping plaza, he said, in Austintown, just west of Youngstown, Ohio. Officers spotted the car because of an Amber Alert, issued in cases of alleged child abductions.

The shootings occurred about 9pm ET on Friday in the driveway of a home in Quincy Township, Pennsylvania, southwest of Harrisburg, according to Pennsylvania state trooper Adam Reed.

The three victims, all adults, were shot dead in a car, he said. Quincy Township is about 250 miles from Austintown. The identities of the dead were not immediately released.

Reed said he did not know the motive for the shootings, but local media reports said Cleeves had confronted his wife about custody arrangements for their daughter Leia.

"He abducted his 4-year-old daughter from the scene of the shooting," Reed said.

Cleeves was jailed in Ohio awaiting extradition to Pennsylvania, authorities said.

I don't understand...what's your point ?

Godfather.

Godfather.

most people that die from aids are gay so lets make being gay illegal and put a end to aids.... :roll:

Godfather.

pandora

LikeAnOcean wrote:

Wouldn't the smart move be to buy a taser instead of a gun?

I mean, shooting someone doesn't always render them helpless.

Looks like these tasers disable people immediately and render them helpless.


The idea that it would have been better if armed civilians were defensively trying to shoot a target in a dark, smoke filled theater is rather comical in a dark humorous way.

I think when one is looking at violent crimes, like home invasion, rape, abduction, etc
a gun is very much needed when ones life is at stake.

But if a person is adverse to guns or afraid of them,
tasers are a good alternative, just know they don't stop someone
geeked up on certain drugs and it would not necessarily make the bad guy helpless.

Officers often have to taser many times and it will still take 2 or more officers to control
the person.

pandora

comebackgirl wrote:

pandora wrote:

The devaluation of life itself, as I have posted many times , is the cause for gun violence.

If someone does not value life they don't care if they take one.

I am addressing mental illness issue, from the get go in this case because I feel
he will be found ill as the Gifford shooter was after the fact.

Seems more experts are agreeing as time is passing.

Thanks for clarifying that you are referring specifically to this case and not shootings in general. We'll find out more as his evals are completed and more info about his treatment history is released. I posted some of my own thoughts in the other thread, but the only expert opinions that matter are from the people who have evaluated or treated him directly.

It's clear you feel strongly about the need for mental health treatment and empathy for those struggling with mental illness, as do I. My concern is again the stigma that results when there are very generalizing kinds of comments and judgments being made that because someone commits a crime like this, they must be mentally ill.

Below are links to 2 articles on the topic. The second article is peer reviewed, but a little lengthy; this is the conclusion:

"Several general conclusions are supported by this brief overview. First, mental disorders are neither necessary, nor sufficient causes of violence. The major determinants of violence continue to be socio-demographic and socio-economic factors such as being young, male, and of lower socio-economic status.

Second, members of the public undoubtedly exaggerate both the strength of the relationship between major mental disorders and violence, as well as their own personal risk from the severely mentally ill. It is far more likely that people with a serious mental illness will be the victim of violence.

Third, substance abuse appears to be a major determinant of violence and this is true whether it occurs in the context of a concurrent mental illness or not. Those with substance disorders are major contributors to community violence, perhaps accounting for as much as a third of self-reported violent acts, and seven out of every 10 crimes of violence among mentally disordered offenders.

Finally, too much past research has focussed on the person with the mental illness, rather than the nature of the social interchange that led up to the violence. Consequently, we know much less than we should about the nature of these relationships and the contextual determinants of violence, and much less than we should about opportunities for primary prevention (30). Nevertheless, current literature supports early identification and treatment of substance abuse problems, and greater attention to the diagnosis and management of concurrent substance abuse disorders among seriously mentally ill as potential violence prevention strategies (25)."


http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/07 ... s-say?lite

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1525086/

great articles!

The most recent case now of a young man on twitter saying he would shoot up his school
he is in court today for threats, two charges I never heard of.

I hope an evaluation is done so if he needs help he gets help before violence.

pandora

pandora wrote:

I wonder why?

ugh Freaking Dillon"
I'll take "answers that are obvious to the rest of us" for $1000, Alex.

*pee-tew, pee-tew, pee-tew, pee-tew*

"and that's our final Daily Double".

Love me some Jeopardy ...

but is this a bit off topic, personal and insulting?

like the game show the obvious answer often not the correct one
that show brings out the brains though, awesome! I need to watch that again
sometime soon... thanks!

pandora

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

pandora wrote:

I remember the days we didn't lock our doors.
Slept with the windows open in the summer.
Walked the street in the wee hours of the morning.

Life has been devalued, hope gone for many.

Pick up a gun make a victim,
get what you want, take a life so what.

Life sucks, theirs must too and if it doesn't and mine does
I'll hate you for that. I'll take what you have and abuse you before I go.

And then I'll go home and have a lemonade and BBQ and tell my friends
the fun I had at the rich guys house tormenting the old guy in front of his wife
and I'll show them the wedding rings I got.

Yes...
times are gone and what is replaced is ugly but we can take our lives back by fighting back.

Just as my neighbor did and thank God because he is a really nice old coot
and one that is not gonna take it anymore.

that's the point. laws change to protect the citizens and should reflect the current state of society. too much gun violence should not equal more guns for the "responsible".

Pretty obvious the criminals aren't law abiding people ... just a thought
and people are not being protected, why we must protect ourselves.

If you don't want to protect yourself that is fine, that is your right.
But Miss Ruby did and it saved her 89 year old bones.
She was courageous enough to fight back!
Bless her little old heart... it beats still today

in your scenario no gun she'd be a broken bag of bones, if even still alive.


but thats ok you don't like guns.

And my neighbor and the home invasion?
how would your scenario work our for him and his wife?

he has every right to protect his loved ones with a gun


but you don't like guns

as I have said...
can't punish the thoughtful because of the thoughtless

So responsible gun owners will keep their legal guns, how ever many, whatever type.
Enforce the laws we do have and put all this ridiculous energy that is going towards
banning guns to getting rid of illegal guns. Because that is the danger...

bad guys with guns not good guys with guns.

comebackgirl

pandora wrote:

comebackgirl wrote:

pandora wrote:

The devaluation of life itself, as I have posted many times , is the cause for gun violence.

If someone does not value life they don't care if they take one.

I am addressing mental illness issue, from the get go in this case because I feel
he will be found ill as the Gifford shooter was after the fact.

Seems more experts are agreeing as time is passing.

Thanks for clarifying that you are referring specifically to this case and not shootings in general. We'll find out more as his evals are completed and more info about his treatment history is released. I posted some of my own thoughts in the other thread, but the only expert opinions that matter are from the people who have evaluated or treated him directly.

It's clear you feel strongly about the need for mental health treatment and empathy for those struggling with mental illness, as do I. My concern is again the stigma that results when there are very generalizing kinds of comments and judgments being made that because someone commits a crime like this, they must be mentally ill.

Below are links to 2 articles on the topic. The second article is peer reviewed, but a little lengthy; this is the conclusion:

"Several general conclusions are supported by this brief overview. First, mental disorders are neither necessary, nor sufficient causes of violence. The major determinants of violence continue to be socio-demographic and socio-economic factors such as being young, male, and of lower socio-economic status.

Second, members of the public undoubtedly exaggerate both the strength of the relationship between major mental disorders and violence, as well as their own personal risk from the severely mentally ill. It is far more likely that people with a serious mental illness will be the victim of violence.

Third, substance abuse appears to be a major determinant of violence and this is true whether it occurs in the context of a concurrent mental illness or not. Those with substance disorders are major contributors to community violence, perhaps accounting for as much as a third of self-reported violent acts, and seven out of every 10 crimes of violence among mentally disordered offenders.

Finally, too much past research has focussed on the person with the mental illness, rather than the nature of the social interchange that led up to the violence. Consequently, we know much less than we should about the nature of these relationships and the contextual determinants of violence, and much less than we should about opportunities for primary prevention (30). Nevertheless, current literature supports early identification and treatment of substance abuse problems, and greater attention to the diagnosis and management of concurrent substance abuse disorders among seriously mentally ill as potential violence prevention strategies (25)."


http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/07 ... s-say?lite

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1525086/

great articles!

The most recent case now of a young man on twitter saying he would shoot up his school
he is in court today for threats, two charges I never heard of.

I hope an evaluation is done so if he needs help he gets help before violence.

Thanks! I found them informative

Oh I hope he gets help too. That's the goal, right? For him and his community.

comebackgirl

Godfather. wrote:

most people that die from aids are gay so lets make being gay illegal and put a end to aids.... :roll:

Godfather.

I think that argument is backwards - HIV (the "weapon" or instrument in this case) disproportionately impacts more men that are gay, so let's get rid of the HIV virus or find ways to limit the spread

Jeanwah

Another story related to guns, but has nothing to do with mental illness. Rather a cop off duty shooting and killing his son he believed to be an intruder while on vacation. This is not a feasible way of dealing with a possible intruder... What happened to speaking before pulling the trigger?

Police officer shoots and kills his adult son, mistaking him for an intruder, in Old Forge, NY
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Saturday, July 21, 2012

OLD FORGE, N.Y. — State troopers say a police officer in New York shot and killed his son, mistaking him for an intruder.

Troopers say Parry Police Department Officer Michael Leach called 911 to report the shooting early Saturday. He was staying at the Clark Beach Motel and shot someone he believed to be an intruder. But the man turned out to be his 37-year-old son, Matthew Leach, according to the Syracuse Post-Standard.

Troopers say Leach used his department-issued .45-caliber Glock handgun in the shooting. He was hospitalized after the shooting.

Godfather.

comebackgirl wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

most people that die from aids are gay so lets make being gay illegal and put a end to aids.... :roll:

Godfather.

I think that argument is backwards - HIV (the "weapon" or instrument in this case) disproportionately impacts more men that are gay, so let's get rid of the HIV virus or find ways to limit the spread

no I intended it the way I posted it I was making a point, but thank you for your kindness.

Godfather.

Cosmo

I don't even know why this is being discussed...
We ALL know what will be the outcome of all of this... NOTHING. Nothing will change and we will all pretend to be surprized and shocked when the next massacre occurs.
Maybe... we should file this away for that next tragedy and drag it out... you know, to save everyone's time and energy.

comebackgirl

Godfather. wrote:

comebackgirl wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

most people that die from aids are gay so lets make being gay illegal and put a end to aids.... :roll:

Godfather.

I think that argument is backwards - HIV (the "weapon" or instrument in this case) disproportionately impacts more men that are gay, so let's get rid of the HIV virus or find ways to limit the spread

no I intended it the way I posted it I was making a point, but thank you for your kindness.

Godfather.

You're welcome. It's been way too long since I've had a logic class, but I don't think you can flip the object with the subject (or something like that) :oops: so if we're banning gay men instead of the weapon (HIV) we'd have to ban people with guns instead of the weapon (guns). Or what I've said may be total bullshit

Hugh Freaking Dillon

pandora wrote:

but is this a bit off topic, personal and insulting?

nope, just stating a fact. don't ask a question and then whine about the answer.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

pandora wrote:

Pretty obvious the criminals aren't law abiding people ... just a thought
and people are not being protected, why we must protect ourselves.

do you understand how the law works? you make tougher laws to keep the "bad guys" in jail. laws are there as deterrents/punishments.

you keep mentioning one or two scenarios where people have been saved by owning a gun. what about the thousands of gun accidents, where children are killed, innocents are maimed, by responsible gun owners.

I never said I dislike guns. I dislike civilians owning them. I'm perfectly fine with the police and soldiers arming themselves.

Accidents happen to even the most responsible. you cannot deny this as fact, guns or cars or boats or anything.

pandora

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

pandora wrote:

but is this a bit off topic, personal and insulting?

nope, just stating a fact. don't ask a question and then whine about the answer.

posting guidelines say don't get personal or insulting

I asked redrock why then honored her wish of course

you just needed to say something nasty ... should the mods notice that?