Ban 'anonymous' speech online?

Cosmo

2. A WEB SITE ADMINISTRATOR UPON REQUEST SHALL REMOVE ANY COMMENTS POSTED ON HIS OR HER WEB SITE BY AN ANONYMOUS POSTER UNLESS SUCH ANONYMOUS POSTER AGREES TO ATTACH HIS OR HER NAME TO THE POST AND CONFIRMS THAT HIS OR HER IP ADDRESS, LEGAL NAME, AND HOME ADDRESS ARE ACCURATE.
ALL WEB SITE ADMINISTRATORS SHALL HAVE A CONTACT NUMBER OR E-MAIL ADDRESS POSTED FOR SUCH REMOVAL REQUESTS, CLEARLY VISIBLE IN ANY SECTIONS WHERE COMMENTS ARE POSTED.
...
That is the gist of the Bill.
This means that all I have to do is contact Kat or Sea and tell them to remove a post I find to be offensive or have the poster's identity revealed to me.
Again... opinion is subjective and it is placing a lot of responsibility and accountability on the Web Admins and opening up a giant can of legal worms if contact is made in the real world because they disclosed the Name and Home Address of a member.

Monster Rain

pandora wrote:

redrock wrote:

Basel Committee on Banking Supervision?
Blue Cross Blue Shield?


You said it yourself. How can one be sure who is at 'the other end' of live chats or web-based help? Could be perverts because that's what they do.

I don't think they hire perverts do you? If they do it would be a very short lived job

I'd like to think that schools don't hire perverts, either, but reality has shattered that illusion for me. The truth is that the professional you see in person, the professional on a respected website, and the pervert lurking on a message board can all be the same person.

But putting perverts off to the side for a moment, let's say that you post on here that you're going on vacation next week and have to take your dog to a kennel because you don't have anyone around to stop by the house and watchi it for you while you're away. The next day someone takes offense to something you posted and your name is up on that message board for anyone to see. All it takes is for someone to get curious about what else you've posted and find your post about your vacation and they'll know that you're not going to be home for a week and nobody is checking on your house. It was safe to post that when you were anonymous because nobody knew who you were. Yes, I understand that you use your real name on here, but you don't use your full name. Very few people do. There's a reason for that. If this bill were to pass, some of the things you've posted in this thread could be grounds for forcing you to either give up your freedom of speech (the government forcing a website to remove your words is a violation of your right to free speech since it is not the website owner's choice at that point) or reveal your name to everyone whether you want to or not. You would be force to decide which right is more important to you: free speech or privacy. It doesn't matter that you didn't intend your words to be hurtful because someone else could take them as hurtful and baseless.

PJ_Soul

pandora wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

There are ways to deal with bullying and peverts. There aren't ways to deal with the lack of anonymity once it's lost. The freedom of the internet - to be able to express yourself without people being able to identify you - is one of the greatest steps towards individual freedom, freedom of expression, and a right to privacy that we've had as a society. You don't just throw that all away because of some problems that can be dealt with without destroying that freedom.

No one is losing a right or a freedom speak away just stand behind your words...
it means everyone must do the same. Why must you be anonymous to say what you just said?

Same as signing a petition, carrying a sign, standing up for what you believe ...
stand behind your words they are your beliefs.

Tell that to a whistle blower or someone who is exposing a politician for wrong doing or something. Tell that to someone who simply doesn't want their identity known because they aren't comfortable with everyone they know knowing their business outside of work or school. There are a LOT of reasons why anonymity is important.
I'm not anonymous here at all. It shows when I'm online, I have had many pm discussions with people here using my real name, I list my city, and I've bought stuff from people here who all know my full name, address and phone number. And 10C has all my personal info as well.
But there are still many many reasons for people to want to be anonymous... frankly, it's none of your or anyone else's business why people want to be anonymous (for all the thousands of different reasons individuals may have), as long as they're not doing anything illegal.

Idris

pandora wrote:

I will believe that the web can be something much better than what it is today.
A kinder gentler world wide web.

The World Wide Web is a reflection of ourselves, we make it what it is, You want to change the Web and make it 'kinder', we start by fixing ourselves, and in turn the Web will reflect that.

Not by silly laws that does nothing to remedy the issues of the heart where the disease is. You can't 'force' people to be good, it has the complete opposite effect when you 'force' it.

In the same way, you can't really make someone love you, I mean you can buy them things, lie to them to make them think you have things in common, then maybe even end up getting married, but in reality, it's not real. It's a lie.

It's trickery, an illusion, It is The Matrix! You want to be in the Matrix Pandora? Go Take the blue pill ('g under p' got me thinking about that movie right now with his post )

The 'Why'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_PFZ92dMys

(Starts around 1:05)

Cosmo

Idris wrote:

The World Wide Web is a reflection of ourselves, we make it what it is, You want to change the Web and make it 'kinder', we start by fixing ourselves, and in turn the Web will reflect that.

Not by silly laws that does nothing to remedy the issues of the heart where the disease is. You can't 'force' people to be good, it has the complete opposite effect when you 'force' it.

In the same way, you can't really make someone love you, I mean you can buy them things, lie to them to make them think you have things in common, then maybe even end up getting married, but in reality, it's not real. It's a lie.

It's trickery, an illusion, It is The Matrix! You want to be in the Matrix Pandora? Go Take the blue pill ('g under p' got me thinking about that movie right now with his post )

The 'Why'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_PFZ92dMys

(Starts around 1:05)

...
Thank you... Words of sense from the world of Reality.
Stop hatred, prejudice, racism, nationalism, religion, greed, envy and hunger in the Real World and the InterNet will follow suit.

pandora

PJ_Soul wrote:

pandora wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

There are ways to deal with bullying and peverts. There aren't ways to deal with the lack of anonymity once it's lost. The freedom of the internet - to be able to express yourself without people being able to identify you - is one of the greatest steps towards individual freedom, freedom of expression, and a right to privacy that we've had as a society. You don't just throw that all away because of some problems that can be dealt with without destroying that freedom.

No one is losing a right or a freedom speak away just stand behind your words...
it means everyone must do the same. Why must you be anonymous to say what you just said?

Same as signing a petition, carrying a sign, standing up for what you believe ...
stand behind your words they are your beliefs.

Tell that to a whistle blower or someone who is exposing a politician for wrong doing or something. Tell that to someone who simply doesn't want their identity known because they aren't comfortable with everyone they know knowing their business outside of work or school. There are a LOT of reasons why anonymity is important.
I'm not anonymous here at all. It shows when I'm online, I have had many pm discussions with people here using my real name, I list my city, and I've bought stuff from people here who all know my full name, address and phone number. And 10C has all my personal info as well.
But there are still many many reasons for people to want to be anonymous... frankly, it's none of your or anyone else's business why people want to be anonymous (for all the thousands of different reasons individuals may have), as long as they're not doing anything illegal.

I've covered whitle blowers already a couple pages back.
Tell it it the the good politician who is being wrongly accused bad mouthed during a race...
total untruth with no recourse by an anonymous person.
I think it might be that person's business or the person who is being cyber bullied.
There is no good reason as I see it to need to be anonymous.

You say as long as they are not doing any thing illegal ...
this is exactly why we need a law like this to protect.
Because people are doing illegal things in the veil of anonymity.
And this for people who otherwise would not if their name was up there and they had accountability for their actions. :fp:

Monster Rain

pandora wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

Tell that to a whistle blower or someone who is exposing a politician for wrong doing or something. Tell that to someone who simply doesn't want their identity known because they aren't comfortable with everyone they know knowing their business outside of work or school. There are a LOT of reasons why anonymity is important.
I'm not anonymous here at all. It shows when I'm online, I have had many pm discussions with people here using my real name, I list my city, and I've bought stuff from people here who all know my full name, address and phone number. And 10C has all my personal info as well.
But there are still many many reasons for people to want to be anonymous... frankly, it's none of your or anyone else's business why people want to be anonymous (for all the thousands of different reasons individuals may have), as long as they're not doing anything illegal.

I've covered whitle blowers already a couple pages back.
Tell it it the the good politician who is being wrongly accused bad mouthed during a race...
total untruth with no recourse by an anonymous person.
I think it might be that person's business or the person who is being cyber bullied.
There is no good reason as I see it to need to be anonymous.

You say as long as they are not doing any thing illegal ...
this is exactly why we need a law like this to protect.
Because people are doing illegal things in the veil of anonymity.
And this for people who otherwise would not if their name was up there and they had accountability for their actions. :fp:

What illegal things are people doing online and getting away with thanks to their anonymity? Being mean isn't illegal. I assume you know that, so what laws are people breaking that they wouldn't if they were forced to reveal their names?

I'm also still not sure how this law is practical given that wifi access allows people to use the Internet without having their own Internet service at home.

pandora

Idris wrote:

pandora wrote:

I will believe that the web can be something much better than what it is today.
A kinder gentler world wide web.

The World Wide Web is a reflection of ourselves, we make it what it is, You want to change the Web and make it 'kinder', we start by fixing ourselves, and in turn the Web will reflect that.

Not by silly laws that does nothing to remedy the issues of the heart where the disease is. You can't 'force' people to be good, it has the complete opposite effect when you 'force' it.

In the same way, you can't really make someone love you, I mean you can buy them things, lie to them to make them think you have things in common, then maybe even end up getting married, but in reality, it's not real. It's a lie.

It's trickery, an illusion, It is The Matrix! You want to be in the Matrix Pandora? Go Take the blue pill ('g under p' got me thinking about that movie right now with his post )

The 'Why'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_PFZ92dMys

(Starts around 1:05)

You think hate crime laws are silly...

I think some people will not learn by example. Some people need laws to show them
what good behavior is.

I speak of love always and believe in the power. I also believe in the opposite power.
And it is this that which lurks in anonymity. Just as it lurks in crime of opportunity.

How did that girl get abducted by the side of the road when her car broke down?
Was that just chance or was that just the regular person with opportunity
to do something very evil and took it... knowing they would not get caught.

It is because we can't fix everyone is why we need laws. And always will.

Think of the web as that dark road at night ...

PJ_Soul

pandora wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

pandora wrote:

Tell that to a whistle blower or someone who is exposing a politician for wrong doing or something. Tell that to someone who simply doesn't want their identity known because they aren't comfortable with everyone they know knowing their business outside of work or school. There are a LOT of reasons why anonymity is important.
I'm not anonymous here at all. It shows when I'm online, I have had many pm discussions with people here using my real name, I list my city, and I've bought stuff from people here who all know my full name, address and phone number. And 10C has all my personal info as well.
But there are still many many reasons for people to want to be anonymous... frankly, it's none of your or anyone else's business why people want to be anonymous (for all the thousands of different reasons individuals may have), as long as they're not doing anything illegal.

I've covered whitle blowers already a couple pages back.
Tell it it the the good politician who is being wrongly accused bad mouthed during a race...
total untruth with no recourse by an anonymous person.
I think it might be that person's business or the person who is being cyber bullied.
There is no good reason as I see it to need to be anonymous.

You say as long as they are not doing any thing illegal ...
this is exactly why we need a law like this to protect.
Because people are doing illegal things in the veil of anonymity.
And this for people who otherwise would not if their name was up there and they had accountability for their actions. :fp:

Sooo.... you think that people doing illegal shit are going to provide their real identities and addresses???
Okay, whatever. I know that you think there is no good reason to be anonymous... you're just wrong.

JOEJOEJOE

pandora wrote:

Idris wrote:

pandora wrote:

I will believe that the web can be something much better than what it is today.
A kinder gentler world wide web.

The World Wide Web is a reflection of ourselves, we make it what it is, You want to change the Web and make it 'kinder', we start by fixing ourselves, and in turn the Web will reflect that.

Not by silly laws that does nothing to remedy the issues of the heart where the disease is. You can't 'force' people to be good, it has the complete opposite effect when you 'force' it.

In the same way, you can't really make someone love you, I mean you can buy them things, lie to them to make them think you have things in common, then maybe even end up getting married, but in reality, it's not real. It's a lie.

It's trickery, an illusion, It is The Matrix! You want to be in the Matrix Pandora? Go Take the blue pill ('g under p' got me thinking about that movie right now with his post )

The 'Why'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_PFZ92dMys

(Starts around 1:05)

You think hate crime laws are silly...

I think some people will not learn by example. Some people need laws to show them
what good behavior is.

I speak of love always and believe in the power. I also believe in the opposite power.
And it is this that which lurks in anonymity. Just as it lurks in crime of opportunity.

How did that girl get abducted by the side of the road when her car broke down?
Was that just chance or was that just the regular person with opportunity
to do something very evil and took it... knowing they would not get caught.

It is because we can't fix everyone is why we need laws. And always will.

Think of the web as that dark road at night ...

The Taliban has many laws that show people how to behave properly.

PJ_Soul

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

pandora wrote:

Idris wrote:

The World Wide Web is a reflection of ourselves, we make it what it is, You want to change the Web and make it 'kinder', we start by fixing ourselves, and in turn the Web will reflect that.

Not by silly laws that does nothing to remedy the issues of the heart where the disease is. You can't 'force' people to be good, it has the complete opposite effect when you 'force' it.

In the same way, you can't really make someone love you, I mean you can buy them things, lie to them to make them think you have things in common, then maybe even end up getting married, but in reality, it's not real. It's a lie.

It's trickery, an illusion, It is The Matrix! You want to be in the Matrix Pandora? Go Take the blue pill ('g under p' got me thinking about that movie right now with his post )

The 'Why'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_PFZ92dMys

(Starts around 1:05)

You think hate crime laws are silly...

I think some people will not learn by example. Some people need laws to show them
what good behavior is.

I speak of love always and believe in the power. I also believe in the opposite power.
And it is this that which lurks in anonymity. Just as it lurks in crime of opportunity.

How did that girl get abducted by the side of the road when her car broke down?
Was that just chance or was that just the regular person with opportunity
to do something very evil and took it... knowing they would not get caught.

It is because we can't fix everyone is why we need laws. And always will.

Think of the web as that dark road at night ...

The Taliban has many laws that show people how to behave properly.

Witch hunts can result from no right to anonymity too.

redrock

pandora wrote:

How did that girl get abducted by the side of the road when her car broke down?
Was that just chance or was that just the regular person with opportunity
to do something very evil and took it... knowing they would not get caught.

It is because we can't fix everyone is why we need laws. And always will.

Think of the web as that dark road at night ...

Wow... as the thread moves along, posts get more and more dramatic. First, no criminal commits a crime KNOWING he/she won't get caught. They may think so or hope so...

Then, let me add to the melodrama....
Say this woman posted something online and, following the 'rules' of the bill, had to give her full name and address. For some reason, another person 'takes notice' of her. He does his research, stalks her and REALLY takes a shine to her. Finds a way to mess with her car and follows her until the car breaks down and he can 'do the deed'. Far fetched? Of course it is but we are talking about extreme melodramatic situations, aren't we? Well you seem to. 'The web as that dark road at night.....". With statements like that, I' m not surprised at your paranoia about this.

But is it really THAT far fetched? After all, this woman completely exposed herself to this kind of stalking with the info she had to give online, for all to see. Food for thought.

PJ_Soul

redrock wrote:

pandora wrote:

How did that girl get abducted by the side of the road when her car broke down?
Was that just chance or was that just the regular person with opportunity
to do something very evil and took it... knowing they would not get caught.

It is because we can't fix everyone is why we need laws. And always will.

Think of the web as that dark road at night ...

Wow... as the thread moves along, posts get more and more dramatic. First, no criminal commits a crime KNOWING he/she won't get caught. They may think so or hope so...

Then, let me add to the melodrama....
Say this woman posted something online and, following the 'rules' of the bill, had to give her full name and address. For some reason, another person 'takes notice' of her. He does his research, stalks her and REALLY takes a shine to her. Finds a way to mess with her car and follows her until the car breaks down and he can 'do the deed'. Far fetched? Of course it is but we are talking about extreme melodramatic situations, aren't we? Well you seem to. 'The web like the dark road at night....."

But is it really THAT far fetched? After all, this woman completely exposed herself to this kind of stalking with the info she had to give online, for all to see. Food for thought.

It's not that far-fetched - it's happened many many times already.
Maybe you don't appreciate, Pandora, how many cuckoo-bananas people there are out there. Example: people on Craigslist get robbed and have even been murdered because some rotten person managed to get their personal info online. I'd also be curious to know how you figure any of us would be protected from corporations getting our info for targeted marketing and market research, or from websites selling our info to spammers. Because that's what they do now with the info we currently choose to give up online. Making it MORE available to the world seems like a pretty shitty idea!

redrock

pandora wrote:

Idris wrote:

pandora wrote:

I will believe that the web can be something much better than what it is today.
A kinder gentler world wide web.

The World Wide Web is a reflection of ourselves, we make it what it is, You want to change the Web and make it 'kinder', we start by fixing ourselves, and in turn the Web will reflect that.

Not by silly laws that does nothing to remedy the issues of the heart where the disease is. You can't 'force' people to be good, it has the complete opposite effect when you 'force' it.

In the same way, you can't really make someone love you, I mean you can buy them things, lie to them to make them think you have things in common, then maybe even end up getting married, but in reality, it's not real. It's a lie.

It's trickery, an illusion, It is The Matrix! You want to be in the Matrix Pandora? Go Take the blue pill ('g under p' got me thinking about that movie right now with his post )

The 'Why'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_PFZ92dMys

(Starts around 1:05)

You think hate crime laws are silly...

...

And how exactly did you draw this conclusion from the above post? How were you able to make this judgement call?

Cosmo

redrock wrote:

pandora wrote:

How did that girl get abducted by the side of the road when her car broke down?
Was that just chance or was that just the regular person with opportunity
to do something very evil and took it... knowing they would not get caught.

It is because we can't fix everyone is why we need laws. And always will.

Think of the web as that dark road at night ...

Wow... as the thread moves along, posts get more and more dramatic. First, no criminal commits a crime KNOWING he/she won't get caught. They may think so or hope so...

Then, let me add to the melodrama....
Say this woman posted something online and, following the 'rules' of the bill, had to give her full name and address. For some reason, another person 'takes notice' of her. He does his research, stalks her and REALLY takes a shine to her. Finds a way to mess with her car and follows her until the car breaks down and he can 'do the deed'. Far fetched? Of course it is but we are talking about extreme melodramatic situations, aren't we? Well you seem to. 'The web as that dark road at night.....". With statements like that, I' m not surprised at your paranoia about this.

But is it really THAT far fetched? After all, this woman completely exposed herself to this kind of stalking with the info she had to give online, for all to see. Food for thought.

...
And more melodrama... what about those site where kids will gather... like Justin Beiber Fan Sites. They need to reveal their names and addresses, too?

JOEJOEJOE

Cosmo wrote:

redrock wrote:

pandora wrote:

How did that girl get abducted by the side of the road when her car broke down?
Was that just chance or was that just the regular person with opportunity
to do something very evil and took it... knowing they would not get caught.

It is because we can't fix everyone is why we need laws. And always will.

Think of the web as that dark road at night ...

Wow... as the thread moves along, posts get more and more dramatic. First, no criminal commits a crime KNOWING he/she won't get caught. They may think so or hope so...

Then, let me add to the melodrama....
Say this woman posted something online and, following the 'rules' of the bill, had to give her full name and address. For some reason, another person 'takes notice' of her. He does his research, stalks her and REALLY takes a shine to her. Finds a way to mess with her car and follows her until the car breaks down and he can 'do the deed'. Far fetched? Of course it is but we are talking about extreme melodramatic situations, aren't we? Well you seem to. 'The web as that dark road at night.....". With statements like that, I' m not surprised at your paranoia about this.

But is it really THAT far fetched? After all, this woman completely exposed herself to this kind of stalking with the info she had to give online, for all to see. Food for thought.

...
And more melodrama... what about those site where kids will gather... like Justin Beiber Fan Sites. They need to reveal their names and addresses, too?

Yes, if the law passes, every pedophile will be able to get the home addresses of young Beiber fans.

pandora

PJ_Soul wrote:

It's not that far-fetched - it's happened many many times already.
Maybe you don't appreciate, Pandora, how many cuckoo-bananas people there are out there. Example: people on Craigslist get robbed and have even been murdered because some rotten person managed to get their personal info online. I'd also be curious to know how you figure any of us would be protected from corporations getting our info for targeted marketing and market research, or from websites selling our info to spammers. Because that's what they do now with the info we currently choose to give up online. Making it MORE available to the world seems like a pretty shitty idea!

Well, I'll go with the fact that if everyone is transparent it's pretty hard to victimize.
Picture the car again, the registered car and license with only one driver.
If anything this will make it much harder to get anyone's info in the eventual place I see the
internet going.

Is this the first proposal by one state? It is a long road before the web can get
to that much better place but I believe it will.

Oh and your words... " I wish I had rainbows and lollipops coming out of my ass too!!"
keep wishing miracles they do happen

pandora

I am assuming this proposal as all, would be geared toward adults right?

Over 18...

JOEJOEJOE

pandora wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

It's not that far-fetched - it's happened many many times already.
Maybe you don't appreciate, Pandora, how many cuckoo-bananas people there are out there. Example: people on Craigslist get robbed and have even been murdered because some rotten person managed to get their personal info online. I'd also be curious to know how you figure any of us would be protected from corporations getting our info for targeted marketing and market research, or from websites selling our info to spammers. Because that's what they do now with the info we currently choose to give up online. Making it MORE available to the world seems like a pretty shitty idea!

Well, I'll go with the fact that if everyone is transparent it's pretty hard to victimize.
Picture the car again, the registered car and license with only one driver.
If anything this will make it much harder to get anyone's info in the eventual place I see the
internet going.

Is this the first proposal by one state? It is a long road before the web can get
to that much better place but I believe it will.

Oh and your words... " I wish I had rainbows and lollipops coming out of my ass too!!"
keep wishing miracles they do happen

There is no way to ensure that everyone will be transparent.

PJ_Soul

pandora wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

It's not that far-fetched - it's happened many many times already.
Maybe you don't appreciate, Pandora, how many cuckoo-bananas people there are out there. Example: people on Craigslist get robbed and have even been murdered because some rotten person managed to get their personal info online. I'd also be curious to know how you figure any of us would be protected from corporations getting our info for targeted marketing and market research, or from websites selling our info to spammers. Because that's what they do now with the info we currently choose to give up online. Making it MORE available to the world seems like a pretty shitty idea!

Well, I'll go with the fact that if everyone is transparent it's pretty hard to victimize.
Picture the car again, the registered car and license with only one driver.
If anything this will make it much harder to get anyone's info in the eventual place I see the
internet going.

Is this the first proposal by one state? It is a long road before the web can get
to that much better place but I believe it will.

Oh and your words... " I wish I had rainbows and lollipops coming out of my ass too!!"
keep wishing miracles they do happen

Hackers, the government, and the websites involved wouldn't have to identify themselves. They're the ones who can get to the info without ever saying a word on the internet. Once your info is out there, it is there forever, with many ways of people getting to it from many different directions. Also wondering what you think would happen to the whole anonymous source thing... would journalists be expected to give up their sources in your utopia? What about anonymous reporting of crime? You've got some Pandora's utopia internet world in your mind, but it just doesn't work in reality.