Our current Prime Minister is planning on building super prisons and our current government just passed a huge crime bill that brings about tougher, longer and mandatory sentences.
Our current justice system focuses on rehabilitation...and prisoners go through a process before re-entering society. I'm afraid this current government will do away with these rehab programs and just release prisoners upon completion of their sentence. I think this could cause them to re offend.
Thank you...
I fear you are correct, I'm sorry for these changes.
Is there a need/ demand for super prisons?
For those leaving our prisons it's so very hard to find work.
Many employers not so keen on hiring and the hiring pool so huge to pick from now.
It will soon be flooded with vets too.
This making those released more likely to reoffend simply because there is not
an honest job for them.
The world is getting messier by the minute.
Agree 100 % on this point. not only is it hard for people being released to find jobs but also housing. I se it everyday.
as for the super prison, one of the biggest issues that our current government has done is move away from from stats that were collected before with a long form census. what that has done is make it easier for the government to do many things that are needed.
for example, when trying to justify the super prison, we had a member of the government say that more jails are needed as UNREPORTED crime in up. just think about that.
Its a joke.
If its unreported how do they know its up .
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Vince Li is a completely changed man -- the voices in his head telling him to kill are silent now -- and he should be given a chance to go to Skinners at Lockport for a hotdog or even to Winnipeg to stroll The Forks.
Just like the rest of us, except accompanied by a security officer and a member of his treatment team from Selkirk Mental Health Centre. Not because of anything he might do, but to make Li and the staff member feel safe from possible attack by the public.
Wearing a dark-grey suit and in shackles, Li sat quietly at the table, head bowed and silent, as lawyers and psychiatrists discussed McLean's slaying, Li's treatment and whether he's well enough to be given increased escorts to Lockport and Winnipeg.
The review board said it would make its decision in one week.
No one at the table disputed Li should be given increased freedom.
"I think that he has reached a baseline, a good clinical baseline," Dr. Steven Kremer said.
Kremer said Li, taking his medication, does not suffer hallucinations and appreciates the gravity of what he did to McLean.
He said Lee is a candidate for unescorted passes on the unfenced grounds of Selkirk Mental Health Centre and continued escorted passes into Selkirk, which started a year ago and to date have not posed any issue. Last year, the board said Li could be allowed supervised trips to Selkirk, starting at 30 minutes and increasing to a full day. The trips to Lockport and Winnipeg would include a single staff person and a security officer.
Kremer and Dr. Stanley Yaren told the board the security officer is needed more to protect Li and the staff member from the public, although there is no known threat against him. Both also said Li is at low risk to reoffend.
"Our attempt here is not to be punitive," Kremer said.
Yaren said there is no therapeutic benefit to Li's continued custodial status and that Li has expressed frustration at the slow pace of regaining his life, but accepts and copes with it.
Crown attorney Susan Helenchilde did not oppose the wider escorted passes for Li, but told the board Li killed once and could again if not closely monitored.
"We don't know what Mr. Li will do if provoked," she said.
Li's lawyer, Alan Libman, said Li is a model patient. "As long as he takes his medication, the public has nothing to fear from Mr. Li," Libman said.
McLean's mother, Carol de Delley, said after the hearing Li should not be granted escorted passes.
"I don't feel particularly safe or comfortable with Vince Li having these outings," she said. "I had the assumption before all of this happened that we all have basic human rights. So how come Timothy's aren't being considered here and only Vince Li's are?"
De Delley has long advocated mentally ill killers such as Li be held indefinitely in a hospital, regardless of any progress they show.
The federal government introduced Bill C-54, the Not Criminally Responsible Reform Act, in February to give the courts a tool when considering the brutality of an offence such as Li's in determining the likelihood of reoffending. It could also be applied retroactively to offenders such as Li who are still receiving treatment and could be used to keep an offender in a hospital three years before they could appear before a review board.
De Delley urged that the bill should be supported.
"I feel sick right now. I physically, nauseously, feel ill because I feel very helpless," she said. "The whole reason I'm doing any of this is so another mom doesn't stand here and do it."
Perspectives
"I'm of the view that the majority of Canadians would not want somebody who is mentally ill incarcerated in a prison, a jail or a hospital. I'm of the view that a just society, and Canada is a just society, believes that those with a mental illness should be treated, not punished."
-- Vince Li's lawyer, Alan Libman
"How do you know what he's going to do? They don't know. The fact of the matter is they don't know. Vince Li is an experiment at this point. They are just going to test and see, give him a little bit more freedom, a little bit more freedom, and see what happens."
-- Carol de Delley, mother of victim Tim McLean
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
"As long as he takes his medication, the public has nothing to fear from Mr. Li," Libman said.
And if he doesn't? :?
this is the part I am uncomfortable with. The guy was apparently told by countless family and friends that he had issues and needed meds and needed to go to a doctor, and refused. Subsequently, an innocent bus passenger was killed and partially eaten. What if he suddenly decides he doesn't need them anymore one day? who will be accountable if he re offends?
I don't know how to reconcile my feelings that the mentally ill are in fact different from the criminally responsible and the fact that public safety should trump his liberty.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
"As long as he takes his medication, the public has nothing to fear from Mr. Li," Libman said.
And if he doesn't? :?
this is the part I am uncomfortable with. The guy was apparently told by countless family and friends that he had issues and needed meds and needed to go to a doctor, and refused. Subsequently, an innocent bus passenger was killed and partially eaten. What if he suddenly decides he doesn't need them anymore one day? who will be accountable if he re offends?
I don't know how to reconcile my feelings that the mentally ill are in fact different from the criminally responsible and the fact that public safety should trump his liberty.
hey Hugh, don't be surprised if the crown also still asked Li to be formed which would mean daily visit for medication from a trained professional. I have clients like that where I work and that is what happens.
"As long as he takes his medication, the public has nothing to fear from Mr. Li," Libman said.
And if he doesn't? :?
this is the part I am uncomfortable with. The guy was apparently told by countless family and friends that he had issues and needed meds and needed to go to a doctor, and refused. Subsequently, an innocent bus passenger was killed and partially eaten. What if he suddenly decides he doesn't need them anymore one day? who will be accountable if he re offends?
I don't know how to reconcile my feelings that the mentally ill are in fact different from the criminally responsible and the fact that public safety should trump his liberty.
hey Hugh, don't be surprised if the crown also still asked Li to be formed which would mean daily visit for medication from a trained professional. I have clients like that where I work and that is what happens.
I'm certainly hoping that would be the case.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
"As long as he takes his medication, the public has nothing to fear from Mr. Li," Libman said.
And if he doesn't? :?
this is the part I am uncomfortable with. The guy was apparently told by countless family and friends that he had issues and needed meds and needed to go to a doctor, and refused. Subsequently, an innocent bus passenger was killed and partially eaten. What if he suddenly decides he doesn't need them anymore one day? who will be accountable if he re offends?
I don't know how to reconcile my feelings that the mentally ill are in fact different from the criminally responsible and the fact that public safety should trump his liberty.
Why are we spending so much time and energy trying to integrate a mentally ill guy who randomly killed, mutilated, ate, and pocketed trophies off some poor kid minding his own business?
Seriously. Like what the fuck, man?
"We have made great progress! As long as he takes his meds (which he has a history of refusing to do) we feel the public is completely safe!"
Libman should put his money where his mouth is by providing a halfway home for the freak. Would he be so confident then? Doubtful. Li has gotten a pretty damn good deal for his act. I don't give a shit if he was ill, drunk, enraged with anger, whatever. He is right where he needs to stay for the rest of his natural life.
Why are we spending so much time and energy trying to integrate a mentally ill guy who randomly killed, mutilated, ate, and pocketed trophies off some poor kid minding his own business?
Seriously. Like what the fuck, man?
"We have made great progress! As long as he takes his meds (which he has a history of refusing to do) we feel the public is completely safe!"
Libman should put his money where his mouth is by providing a halfway home for the freak. Would he be so confident then? Doubtful. Li has gotten a pretty damn good deal for his act. I don't give a shit if he was ill, drunk, enraged with anger, whatever. He is right where he needs to stay for the rest of his natural life.
Waste of time and energy.
um, mentally ill is not the same as being drunk or enraged with anger. being mentally ill is no one's fault. do you agree?
he never refused to take his meds. he refused to go to a doctor to get diagnosed, which is common for someone with his condition. his act was horrendous, yes, but it wasn't the act of a sane man. the sane man has apparently returned. but my main thing is accountability. this guy needs to be supervised for the rest of his natural life. i mean, how does anyone know he'll continue his meds? what if he falls on hard times and can't afford them? what then? I mean, they say alcoholism is a disease, but people fall off the wagon all the time.
this guy cannot be allowed to fall off his wagon again.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Why are we spending so much time and energy trying to integrate a mentally ill guy who randomly killed, mutilated, ate, and pocketed trophies off some poor kid minding his own business?
Seriously. Like what the fuck, man?
"We have made great progress! As long as he takes his meds (which he has a history of refusing to do) we feel the public is completely safe!"
Libman should put his money where his mouth is by providing a halfway home for the freak. Would he be so confident then? Doubtful. Li has gotten a pretty damn good deal for his act. I don't give a shit if he was ill, drunk, enraged with anger, whatever. He is right where he needs to stay for the rest of his natural life.
Waste of time and energy.
um, mentally ill is not the same as being drunk or enraged with anger. being mentally ill is no one's fault. do you agree?
he never refused to take his meds. he refused to go to a doctor to get diagnosed, which is common for someone with his condition. his act was horrendous, yes, but it wasn't the act of a sane man. the sane man has apparently returned. but my main thing is accountability. this guy needs to be supervised for the rest of his natural life. i mean, how does anyone know he'll continue his meds? what if he falls on hard times and can't afford them? what then? I mean, they say alcoholism is a disease, but people fall off the wagon all the time.
this guy cannot be allowed to fall off his wagon again.
I do agree, but you never read my passage. I stated being ill as one of the motivators I really couldn't give a shit for. I don't give a shit what type of voices prompt you to mutilate and eat a man sitting beside you on a bus- it's not an alibi for such a ridiculous crime.
Does anyone really want to reintegrate the sane man? Or is this generous display of rehabilitative services simply a façade? Does anyone, for a split second, think that it is reasonable to have this man in mainstream society? If there is... I call that person a fool. A fool with their head lodged firmly up their ass. I'm not hearing you say you think so... so please don't think I'm tossing this towards you.
You see... I'd prefer we institute this monster to a bare minimum (I'd prefer more actually and I know that you know what I mean when I say this). I'd prefer we allot the generous funding formula we attribute to rehabilitation of people such as this and redirect it to our youth sector in a proactive measure. For example, I would prefer the tax dollars this idiot has sucked up be afforded to kids dealing with documented cases of abuse or other such trauma. This would at least offer society a chance to break the cycle of violence on the front end as opposed to reactively deal with it on the back end.
How would this play out? Short term... well... mentally ill guys that eat people on a bus don't get treated with all the love and generosity the human spirit can surmise. Long term... maybe we have a chance to save people from a lifetime of pain and quite possibly... save future people from becoming victims as that pain manifests itself in the form of violence.
Untreated mental illness that makes you unable to take care of yourself safely is one thing. Untreated mental illness that makes you stab a complete stranger for no reason, then eat said stranger, is quite another. What is this magical "treatment" that makes the Board certain that he won't murder and cannibalize another random stranger after only 4 years out of society?
Maybe you underestimate the effect severe mental illness has on people.
The cop(s) should have just blown this guy away when they arrived and that would have been that. Sure hope the bleeding hearts are not sitting beside this guy when he forgets his meds again.
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
I do agree, but you never read my passage. I stated being ill as one of the motivators I really couldn't give a shit for. I don't give a shit what type of voices prompt you to mutilate and eat a man sitting beside you on a bus- it's not an alibi for such a ridiculous crime.
I did read your entire post. I just fail to see how you can call being mentally ill a "motivator". This man was motivated by nothing. His illness did this to him. No different than dying of an untreated heart ailment. Of course, we have to get all high and mighty about it becuase of the end result, but the root cause is still th easme. ILLNESS. People are still so unwilling to see it fo what it is because of the possibility of it hurting other innocent victims.
Killing someone who is not mentally culpible is against the law. For good reason.
This guy did not claim to be insane and "get off". He WAS insane, and was diagnosed as such by a team of doctors. Again, I'm not saying I am for this guy being at the same museum or playground as me and my kids, I'm just saying it's not being "generous" to try to help another human who is sick. It's called being human. He did unspeakable things. No question.
Tell me, Thirty, do you believe it is Vince Li's fault for being ill?
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
This conversation going on here is why people who suspect they might need help never seek help ... at too many people still don't seem to want to admit mental illness is a problem ... maybe just call it mental disease and more people will understand it.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
This conversation going on here is why people who suspect they might need help never seek help ... at too many people still don't seem to want to admit mental illness is a problem ... maybe just call it mental disease and more people will understand it.
+1000
this is exactly what took me so long to seek help. I was terrified that I'd be carted away in a straight jacket never to see my daughters again with the thoughts that were going on in my head.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I do agree, but you never read my passage. I stated being ill as one of the motivators I really couldn't give a shit for. I don't give a shit what type of voices prompt you to mutilate and eat a man sitting beside you on a bus- it's not an alibi for such a ridiculous crime.
I did read your entire post. I just fail to see how you can call being mentally ill a "motivator". This man was motivated by nothing. His illness did this to him. No different than dying of an untreated heart ailment. Of course, we have to get all high and mighty about it becuase of the end result, but the root cause is still th easme. ILLNESS. People are still so unwilling to see it fo what it is because of the possibility of it hurting other innocent victims.
Killing someone who is not mentally culpible is against the law. For good reason.
This guy did not claim to be insane and "get off". He WAS insane, and was diagnosed as such by a team of doctors. Again, I'm not saying I am for this guy being at the same museum or playground as me and my kids, I'm just saying it's not being "generous" to try to help another human who is sick. It's called being human. He did unspeakable things. No question.
Tell me, Thirty, do you believe it is Vince Li's fault for being ill?
No, it's not his fault for being mentally ill. It's his fault he sliced up, mutilated, and ate a complete stranger minding his own business on a bus though. He's shown his capacity: it's over. A 'no-brainer' if there ever was an example for the term. Locked up with some meds and a television- it's the best we should do for him.
This comes down to priorities. You haven't spoke to it, but I was very serious when I said our tax dollars should be put to better use. I would prefer a restructuring of our victim's service programs in the hopes of providing relief to abused children. I mean, currently we offer very little in terms of programming for children that have a chance of becoming balanced after dealing with documented trauma. Currently, we offer a weekly chat for these kids with someone who has an overflowing case load (we throw pennies at them).
We should redirect the ridiculous amounts of cash we currently spend on our futile efforts to rehabilitate people after they have eaten other people towards the type of programming that might actually have a chance to improve society. Li gets a team of doctors, while a raped 5 year old boy gets to chat with a nice lady every month. Priorities. Why should I be okay with this?
Tell me, Hugh, would you rather place greater efforts towards improving the lives of children who need support... or would you rather continue making efforts towards attempting to reintegrate a man such as Li?
Don't tell me both because we currently pay 40% off our gross cheques and 13% at the cash register to get what we have now- we are ridiculously taxed. We can't do a good job at both without more capital and the way I see it... Li (and others like him) get the generous portion of the distribution with his team of doctors and his team of bleeding heart advocates.
This conversation going on here is why people who suspect they might need help never seek help ... at too many people still don't seem to want to admit mental illness is a problem ... maybe just call it mental disease and more people will understand it.
Wrong. You have forgotten context here. I'm all for helping the mentally ill to our fullest capacity- just not after they have mutilated someone's child on a bus.
If anything, this conversation speaks to the importance of seeking, getting and providing help for mental illness before something tragic happens.
Like many other traditionally taboo societal items, the stigma people speak of is much lower than it used to be. I know people who have had breakdowns and recovered. Nobody I know speaks poorly of them and all, unless I'm mistaken, support them to their fullest.
with his team of doctors and his team of bleeding heart advocates.
I, for one, am getting tired of being constantly insulted with the label "bleeding heart (insert adjective here)". I am a person who advocates for all humans, all victims. That includes the mentally ill.
it's really interesting to me that some people seem to believe that we should treat savage animals as family and mentally ill human beings as caged animals.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Like many other traditionally taboo societal items, the stigma people speak of is much lower than it used to be. I know people who have had breakdowns and recovered. Nobody I know speaks poorly of them and all, unless I'm mistaken, support them to their fullest.
whether you or someone else gives support after the fact is meaningless in the context of whether a person can build the courage to "come out" as mentally ill before anyone else is aware. it's the fact that they themselves believe they might be "going crazy", and don't want to be labelled as such.
the stigma attached involves so much more than just having support of family and friends.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
If anything, this conversation speaks to the importance of seeking, getting and providing help for mental illness before something tragic happens.
More often than not, the 'something tragic' is one of the first obvious signs of mental illness. Many go through life (or part thereof) with no apparent signs. Until.....
Why are people talking as if this guy is going to be released and living on his own? I read the article posted and they are talking about escorted visits away from his hospital. I highly doubt he is ever going to be given the kind of freedom to do what he wants or go where he wants whenever he wants like most of us enjoy.
Plus let me pose this question. If someone was driving and had a non-fatal heart attack it cause them to run over and kill someone should they be locked up for murder? If no, how is that different from this case?
with his team of doctors and his team of bleeding heart advocates.
I, for one, am getting tired of being constantly insulted with the label "bleeding heart (insert adjective here)". I am a person who advocates for all humans, all victims. That includes the mentally ill.
it's really interesting to me that some people seem to believe that we should treat savage animals as family and mentally ill human beings as caged animals.
You're right. If a bear kills somebody in the wild we hunt them down. As I said above. The cop should have blown the duche bag away, and that would have been that. Standing looking out the door with a head in his hand. BOOM!
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
with his team of doctors and his team of bleeding heart advocates.
I, for one, am getting tired of being constantly insulted with the label "bleeding heart (insert adjective here)". I am a person who advocates for all humans, all victims. That includes the mentally ill.
it's really interesting to me that some people seem to believe that we should treat savage animals as family and mentally ill human beings as caged animals.
I have detailed my position.
I have asked some legitimate questions and articulated an alternative methodology to our current reality.
You keep defending your position while ignoring what I have presented. I'm curious to know where you reside with what I presented.
with his team of doctors and his team of bleeding heart advocates.
I, for one, am getting tired of being constantly insulted with the label "bleeding heart (insert adjective here)". I am a person who advocates for all humans, all victims. That includes the mentally ill.
it's really interesting to me that some people seem to believe that we should treat savage animals as family and mentally ill human beings as caged animals.
You're right. If a bear kills somebody in the wild we hunt them down. As I said above. The cop should have blown the duche bag away, and that would have been that. Standing looking out the door with a head in his hand. BOOM!
um, I wasn't talking about wild animals. I was referring some pets people have that maul people and the "bleeding heart animal lovers" try to blame other factors other than it is an animal with natural predatory instincts.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I have asked some legitimate questions and articulated an alternative methodology to our current reality.
You keep defending your position while ignoring what I have presented. I'm curious to know where you reside with what I presented.
your alternative methodology is nothing more than taking the money away from mental health programs and putting it somewhere you deem it to be more useful, and just "lock up the monsters and throw away the key". that's not an alternative methodology. that's a political position.
yes, we obviously need more funding for kids who are traumatized, but we also need more money for insfrastructure, roads, etc etc etc. that is neither here nor there. he is locked up, and the doctor(s) looking after him are saying he is no longer a danger to society. those doctors are already there. are you suggesting that to save money we just have one security guard on staff in front of a big metal door with all the inmates on the other side?
the idea of just locking people up who we don't deem fit for our version of societal bliss is not a solution.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
You are jumping to extremes to make your position.
I'm not talking about implementing a Turkish prison system.
I'm saying that given what Li has done, I'm not in favour of throwing a ton of cash to try and integrate him into mainstream society.
I'm saying the resources we commit to people such as Li are excessive. Especially when we look at the resources we fail to provide to, say, abused children.
Once again, we are apart on this issue. I can accept where you are at as much as I am comfortable with my stance.
Remember that I am in full support of providing help to those in need. Just not after the fact. You carve a guy up and eat him, well, that's taking things a little too far. The capacity of such an individual places him inside an institution where he needs to remain so that another mother will not have to experience something similar.
Comments
If its unreported how do they know its up
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/greater-freedom-for-li-urged-207330731.html
Vince Li is a completely changed man -- the voices in his head telling him to kill are silent now -- and he should be given a chance to go to Skinners at Lockport for a hotdog or even to Winnipeg to stroll The Forks.
Just like the rest of us, except accompanied by a security officer and a member of his treatment team from Selkirk Mental Health Centre. Not because of anything he might do, but to make Li and the staff member feel safe from possible attack by the public.
Wearing a dark-grey suit and in shackles, Li sat quietly at the table, head bowed and silent, as lawyers and psychiatrists discussed McLean's slaying, Li's treatment and whether he's well enough to be given increased escorts to Lockport and Winnipeg.
The review board said it would make its decision in one week.
No one at the table disputed Li should be given increased freedom.
"I think that he has reached a baseline, a good clinical baseline," Dr. Steven Kremer said.
Kremer said Li, taking his medication, does not suffer hallucinations and appreciates the gravity of what he did to McLean.
He said Lee is a candidate for unescorted passes on the unfenced grounds of Selkirk Mental Health Centre and continued escorted passes into Selkirk, which started a year ago and to date have not posed any issue. Last year, the board said Li could be allowed supervised trips to Selkirk, starting at 30 minutes and increasing to a full day. The trips to Lockport and Winnipeg would include a single staff person and a security officer.
Kremer and Dr. Stanley Yaren told the board the security officer is needed more to protect Li and the staff member from the public, although there is no known threat against him. Both also said Li is at low risk to reoffend.
"Our attempt here is not to be punitive," Kremer said.
Yaren said there is no therapeutic benefit to Li's continued custodial status and that Li has expressed frustration at the slow pace of regaining his life, but accepts and copes with it.
Crown attorney Susan Helenchilde did not oppose the wider escorted passes for Li, but told the board Li killed once and could again if not closely monitored.
"We don't know what Mr. Li will do if provoked," she said.
Li's lawyer, Alan Libman, said Li is a model patient. "As long as he takes his medication, the public has nothing to fear from Mr. Li," Libman said.
McLean's mother, Carol de Delley, said after the hearing Li should not be granted escorted passes.
"I don't feel particularly safe or comfortable with Vince Li having these outings," she said. "I had the assumption before all of this happened that we all have basic human rights. So how come Timothy's aren't being considered here and only Vince Li's are?"
De Delley has long advocated mentally ill killers such as Li be held indefinitely in a hospital, regardless of any progress they show.
The federal government introduced Bill C-54, the Not Criminally Responsible Reform Act, in February to give the courts a tool when considering the brutality of an offence such as Li's in determining the likelihood of reoffending. It could also be applied retroactively to offenders such as Li who are still receiving treatment and could be used to keep an offender in a hospital three years before they could appear before a review board.
De Delley urged that the bill should be supported.
"I feel sick right now. I physically, nauseously, feel ill because I feel very helpless," she said. "The whole reason I'm doing any of this is so another mom doesn't stand here and do it."
Perspectives
"I'm of the view that the majority of Canadians would not want somebody who is mentally ill incarcerated in a prison, a jail or a hospital. I'm of the view that a just society, and Canada is a just society, believes that those with a mental illness should be treated, not punished."
-- Vince Li's lawyer, Alan Libman
"How do you know what he's going to do? They don't know. The fact of the matter is they don't know. Vince Li is an experiment at this point. They are just going to test and see, give him a little bit more freedom, a little bit more freedom, and see what happens."
-- Carol de Delley, mother of victim Tim McLean
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
And if he doesn't? :?
Better hide the BBQ sauce.
this is the part I am uncomfortable with. The guy was apparently told by countless family and friends that he had issues and needed meds and needed to go to a doctor, and refused. Subsequently, an innocent bus passenger was killed and partially eaten. What if he suddenly decides he doesn't need them anymore one day? who will be accountable if he re offends?
I don't know how to reconcile my feelings that the mentally ill are in fact different from the criminally responsible and the fact that public safety should trump his liberty.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
hey Hugh, don't be surprised if the crown also still asked Li to be formed which would mean daily visit for medication from a trained professional. I have clients like that where I work and that is what happens.
I'm certainly hoping that would be the case.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
do we think we are growing bigger badder monsters as we go? and the TV shows :wtf:
lets glorify and gorify with cannibalism and serial killers.
I used to think Lost In Space was scary
Why are we spending so much time and energy trying to integrate a mentally ill guy who randomly killed, mutilated, ate, and pocketed trophies off some poor kid minding his own business?
Seriously. Like what the fuck, man?
"We have made great progress! As long as he takes his meds (which he has a history of refusing to do) we feel the public is completely safe!"
Libman should put his money where his mouth is by providing a halfway home for the freak. Would he be so confident then? Doubtful. Li has gotten a pretty damn good deal for his act. I don't give a shit if he was ill, drunk, enraged with anger, whatever. He is right where he needs to stay for the rest of his natural life.
Waste of time and energy.
um, mentally ill is not the same as being drunk or enraged with anger. being mentally ill is no one's fault. do you agree?
he never refused to take his meds. he refused to go to a doctor to get diagnosed, which is common for someone with his condition. his act was horrendous, yes, but it wasn't the act of a sane man. the sane man has apparently returned. but my main thing is accountability. this guy needs to be supervised for the rest of his natural life. i mean, how does anyone know he'll continue his meds? what if he falls on hard times and can't afford them? what then? I mean, they say alcoholism is a disease, but people fall off the wagon all the time.
this guy cannot be allowed to fall off his wagon again.
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I do agree, but you never read my passage. I stated being ill as one of the motivators I really couldn't give a shit for. I don't give a shit what type of voices prompt you to mutilate and eat a man sitting beside you on a bus- it's not an alibi for such a ridiculous crime.
Does anyone really want to reintegrate the sane man? Or is this generous display of rehabilitative services simply a façade? Does anyone, for a split second, think that it is reasonable to have this man in mainstream society? If there is... I call that person a fool. A fool with their head lodged firmly up their ass. I'm not hearing you say you think so... so please don't think I'm tossing this towards you.
You see... I'd prefer we institute this monster to a bare minimum (I'd prefer more actually and I know that you know what I mean when I say this). I'd prefer we allot the generous funding formula we attribute to rehabilitation of people such as this and redirect it to our youth sector in a proactive measure. For example, I would prefer the tax dollars this idiot has sucked up be afforded to kids dealing with documented cases of abuse or other such trauma. This would at least offer society a chance to break the cycle of violence on the front end as opposed to reactively deal with it on the back end.
How would this play out? Short term... well... mentally ill guys that eat people on a bus don't get treated with all the love and generosity the human spirit can surmise. Long term... maybe we have a chance to save people from a lifetime of pain and quite possibly... save future people from becoming victims as that pain manifests itself in the form of violence.
Maybe you underestimate the effect severe mental illness has on people.
I'm sure those in charge of him, and who have been treating him, will be more suited to make that call.
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
unless it was to stand trial for murder then go to big boy prison.
I did read your entire post. I just fail to see how you can call being mentally ill a "motivator". This man was motivated by nothing. His illness did this to him. No different than dying of an untreated heart ailment. Of course, we have to get all high and mighty about it becuase of the end result, but the root cause is still th easme. ILLNESS. People are still so unwilling to see it fo what it is because of the possibility of it hurting other innocent victims.
Killing someone who is not mentally culpible is against the law. For good reason.
This guy did not claim to be insane and "get off". He WAS insane, and was diagnosed as such by a team of doctors. Again, I'm not saying I am for this guy being at the same museum or playground as me and my kids, I'm just saying it's not being "generous" to try to help another human who is sick. It's called being human. He did unspeakable things. No question.
Tell me, Thirty, do you believe it is Vince Li's fault for being ill?
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"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
+1000
this is exactly what took me so long to seek help. I was terrified that I'd be carted away in a straight jacket never to see my daughters again with the thoughts that were going on in my head.
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No, it's not his fault for being mentally ill. It's his fault he sliced up, mutilated, and ate a complete stranger minding his own business on a bus though. He's shown his capacity: it's over. A 'no-brainer' if there ever was an example for the term. Locked up with some meds and a television- it's the best we should do for him.
This comes down to priorities. You haven't spoke to it, but I was very serious when I said our tax dollars should be put to better use. I would prefer a restructuring of our victim's service programs in the hopes of providing relief to abused children. I mean, currently we offer very little in terms of programming for children that have a chance of becoming balanced after dealing with documented trauma. Currently, we offer a weekly chat for these kids with someone who has an overflowing case load (we throw pennies at them).
We should redirect the ridiculous amounts of cash we currently spend on our futile efforts to rehabilitate people after they have eaten other people towards the type of programming that might actually have a chance to improve society. Li gets a team of doctors, while a raped 5 year old boy gets to chat with a nice lady every month. Priorities. Why should I be okay with this?
Tell me, Hugh, would you rather place greater efforts towards improving the lives of children who need support... or would you rather continue making efforts towards attempting to reintegrate a man such as Li?
Don't tell me both because we currently pay 40% off our gross cheques and 13% at the cash register to get what we have now- we are ridiculously taxed. We can't do a good job at both without more capital and the way I see it... Li (and others like him) get the generous portion of the distribution with his team of doctors and his team of bleeding heart advocates.
Wrong. You have forgotten context here. I'm all for helping the mentally ill to our fullest capacity- just not after they have mutilated someone's child on a bus.
If anything, this conversation speaks to the importance of seeking, getting and providing help for mental illness before something tragic happens.
Like many other traditionally taboo societal items, the stigma people speak of is much lower than it used to be. I know people who have had breakdowns and recovered. Nobody I know speaks poorly of them and all, unless I'm mistaken, support them to their fullest.
I, for one, am getting tired of being constantly insulted with the label "bleeding heart (insert adjective here)". I am a person who advocates for all humans, all victims. That includes the mentally ill.
it's really interesting to me that some people seem to believe that we should treat savage animals as family and mentally ill human beings as caged animals.
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whether you or someone else gives support after the fact is meaningless in the context of whether a person can build the courage to "come out" as mentally ill before anyone else is aware. it's the fact that they themselves believe they might be "going crazy", and don't want to be labelled as such.
the stigma attached involves so much more than just having support of family and friends.
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More often than not, the 'something tragic' is one of the first obvious signs of mental illness. Many go through life (or part thereof) with no apparent signs. Until.....
Plus let me pose this question. If someone was driving and had a non-fatal heart attack it cause them to run over and kill someone should they be locked up for murder? If no, how is that different from this case?
You're right. If a bear kills somebody in the wild we hunt them down. As I said above. The cop should have blown the duche bag away, and that would have been that. Standing looking out the door with a head in his hand. BOOM!
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
I have detailed my position.
I have asked some legitimate questions and articulated an alternative methodology to our current reality.
You keep defending your position while ignoring what I have presented. I'm curious to know where you reside with what I presented.
um, I wasn't talking about wild animals. I was referring some pets people have that maul people and the "bleeding heart animal lovers" try to blame other factors other than it is an animal with natural predatory instincts.
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your alternative methodology is nothing more than taking the money away from mental health programs and putting it somewhere you deem it to be more useful, and just "lock up the monsters and throw away the key". that's not an alternative methodology. that's a political position.
yes, we obviously need more funding for kids who are traumatized, but we also need more money for insfrastructure, roads, etc etc etc. that is neither here nor there. he is locked up, and the doctor(s) looking after him are saying he is no longer a danger to society. those doctors are already there. are you suggesting that to save money we just have one security guard on staff in front of a big metal door with all the inmates on the other side?
the idea of just locking people up who we don't deem fit for our version of societal bliss is not a solution.
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I'm not talking about implementing a Turkish prison system.
I'm saying that given what Li has done, I'm not in favour of throwing a ton of cash to try and integrate him into mainstream society.
I'm saying the resources we commit to people such as Li are excessive. Especially when we look at the resources we fail to provide to, say, abused children.
Once again, we are apart on this issue. I can accept where you are at as much as I am comfortable with my stance.
Remember that I am in full support of providing help to those in need. Just not after the fact. You carve a guy up and eat him, well, that's taking things a little too far. The capacity of such an individual places him inside an institution where he needs to remain so that another mother will not have to experience something similar.