Greyhound Bus Cannibal rehabilitated after 4 years?

oftenreading

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

oftenreading said:

That's pretty harsh. Wouldn't you rather have the rocks?

Of course, but I'm trying to find the middle way. Something non-violent... yet somehow still a consequence of some significance.

Li will likely eat someone anyways. I'm feeling safe.

(kidding)

Well, I appreciate you respecting my sensibilities but man, Nickleback falls under cruel and unusual.

We'll just have to find another way to get you stoned.

HughFreakingDillon

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/forgiving-the-unthinkable-294784701.html?cx_navSource=d-popular-views

MORDEN -- George Penner, then a young high-school teacher in Gimli, had just returned from an end-of-term lunch with colleagues when he spotted two police officers walking through the school halls with his principal.

Those officers delivered news that shattered Penner's life. That afternoon, June 25, 1980, Penner's neighbour and former student, in the grip of a psychotic episode, shot and killed Penner's young wife, Margaret, and their toddler son, Karl. The couple's oldest son suffered a gunshot wound to the head and was rushed to hospital in Winnipeg. What followed for Penner was a blur of bitterness and anger.

"That was the worst summer of my life," said Penner, now the retired assistant superintendent of the Garden Valley School Division. "Even to this day, you think back, you have feelings. It doesn't go away."

Despite that, Penner says it's pointless and cruel to lock up people, including Vince Li, who commit violent acts caused by psychosis. Instead, he said people such as Li ought to be afforded forgiveness, high-quality treatment and the chance to reclaim some kind of life, even if there are no iron-clad guarantees the person won't slide back into violence.

"But then, there are no guarantees for any of us," said Penner, who thinks back to the turmoil he suffered in the years following the death of his wife and son. "Under certain conditions of stress we're all capable of doing the unthinkable. But for the grace of God, I could have gone over the deep end, too."


Late Friday, a provincial review board ruled Vince Li could be granted more freedoms, including unsupervised visits to Winnipeg and perhaps an eventual move from a hospital psychiatric unit to a high-security group home.

Li was found not criminally responsible for stabbing, mutilating and beheading 22-year-old Tim McLean on a Greyhound bus to Winnipeg in July 2008. Since then, Li has been confined to the Selkirk Mental Health Centre but has been gradually reintegrating into society as his symptoms abated. News of his increased freedoms sparked a new round of controversy last week, as many Winnipeggers, including Shelly Glover, Manitoba's senior federal cabinet minister, said Li poses too great a risk to public safety and ought to be locked up indefinitely.

The Penner family's case sparked the same kind of public outrage 35 years ago. Arnold Charles Franz, the young man who killed Penner's wife and son, was diagnosed with paranoid psychosis, a mental illness that worsened in the months leading up to the shooting, in part because he stopped taking his medication. Penner said the young man was often seen yelling to himself in his yard, and confronted Margaret on at least one occasion, leaving her fearful.

The young man seemed fixated on women he suspected of wearing skimpy attire to sexually persecute him, including Penner's wife, who would weed the garden in shorts and a halter-top in the summer. The man, 24 at the time, also suffered from auditory hallucinations and tried and failed to shoot himself with the same gun he'd used to kill Margaret and Karl. He was later found not-guilty of two counts of first-degree murder by reason of insanity.

In the years following the shooting, Penner met and married his second wife, Peg, then a young widow with children of her own. Together, they raised five kids, including Mark, who was left with left-side paralysis and who is now a computer engineer and father of three.

In the months after the incident, thanks to his burgeoning friendship with Peg, Penner attended a church seminar about coping with tragic events and then had a life-changing encounter with the seminar's leader.

"He simplified it for me. He said you make a choice to forgive. And when you make a choice, you act on it," said Penner. "Many of us are people of faith. What does it say when we cannot forgive?"

After the shooting, Penner left teaching for several years, working instead as an employment counsellor at the Eden Mental Health Centre in Winkler, where he studied client files, spent mornings in intake meetings with psychiatrists and social workers and helped find clients jobs.

He said, with the proper treatment and careful monitoring, there is no reason someone like Li can't work.

"I'm sure, with a sympathetic employer, that can happen," said Penner.

Penner believes the man who killed Margaret and Karl spent several years at the institution in Selkirk, receiving treatment and being slowly reintegrated into society, much as Li has been. Penner said, through family and friends, he occasionally gets word about the man's status. It's believed he is living a solitary life in Winnipeg, but visits his large family in Gimli and Selkirk.

"As far as we know, he's never been in trouble," said Penner.

About eight years ago, Peg was dropping off some items at a nursing home in Selkirk when a friend there mentioned seeing the man occasionally come in to visit his father. On a later trip, the same friend pointed out the man, sitting down the hall.

"He looked like a very lonely, sad guy," said Peg.

HughFreakingDillon

before the obvious is pointed out, yes, in this case, the accused willfully stopped taking his meds. but he wasn't being monitored after committing a crime. he could not be lawfully forced to take them, as Li will be. so yes, there is a difference here.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Another perspective (it's not the entire piece):

It happened nearly seven years ago and for nearly seven years the legal system and mental health care system and politically correct phony system has tried to put layer after layer of plastic on the corpse of justice. First the Crown and defence agreed there would be no trial and no murder conviction because Vince Li, an immigrant from China, was not mentally fit to stand trial and could not have been mentally sound on that hot summer night near Portage where he destroyed the life and dignity of Tim McLean. Vince Li was found not criminally responsible and ever since then the Justice system has turned itself inside out to make it easy for Vince Li to re-enter society.

Let’s tell the truth. If Vince Li had been declared Not Criminally Responsible for the death of Tim McLean but was forced to serve a life sentence in a psychiatric institution, most of us could live with that. But the idea that he is not criminally responsible and we are responsible for protecting and pampering Vince Li for the rest of his days – teaching him to speak a better English, training him to improve his computer skills, while attacking anyone who opposes this treatment by declaring them insensitive to mental illness, is a package of insanity that forces us to call out. We call out those who pretend that Tim McLean has received justice, when he hasn’t. We call out those who pretend that it is safe to have Vince Li living among us when we know it isn’t. We side with Tim’s family who lost a son and with the family of a Mountie who lost a son who took his own life after having seen what he was forced to see while on duty near Portage nearly seven years ago.

And finally let’s tell the truth about the mentally ill, most of whom struggle for a measure of dignity every day of their lives while posing a threat to nobody. Let’s call out those in the legal and mental health systems who insult the dignity of these people by making Vince Li their poster child. They deserve better than this. They have earned it with the lives they have lived. What has Vince Li earned? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

http://www.cjob.com/2015/02/25/hanging-our-head-in-shame-for-tim-mclean/

* A cop took his life after being on the scene where Li committed his offence?

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Mom's feelings on the recent developments:

Psychiatrist Dr. Steven Kremer told the review board at a hearing earlier this week that Li has had no hallucinations in more than a year, he takes his medication and he has had "profound improvement" in his mental status.

The board also said it may consider eventually allowing Li to live in a group home.

"I'm not surprised by it but I am frustrated and angry and sad," Carole de Delley, Tim McLean's mom, said after hearing the news.

"Now he's going to be walking the streets of Winnipeg. I'm horrified by that. I am absolutely horrified that he has that opportunity."

Li’s new privileges only last so long as he remains on his medication and keeps a working cell phone with him.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Ken Barker was the retired RCMP that killed himself. He suffered from PTSD and when Li was published in the news media, he began having flashbacks:

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/07/17/exmountie_commits_suicide_years_after_bus_beheading.html

HughFreakingDillon

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Another perspective (it's not the entire piece):

It happened nearly seven years ago and for nearly seven years the legal system and mental health care system and politically correct phony system has tried to put layer after layer of plastic on the corpse of justice. First the Crown and defence agreed there would be no trial and no murder conviction because Vince Li, an immigrant from China, was not mentally fit to stand trial and could not have been mentally sound on that hot summer night near Portage where he destroyed the life and dignity of Tim McLean. Vince Li was found not criminally responsible and ever since then the Justice system has turned itself inside out to make it easy for Vince Li to re-enter society.

Let’s tell the truth. If Vince Li had been declared Not Criminally Responsible for the death of Tim McLean but was forced to serve a life sentence in a psychiatric institution, most of us could live with that. But the idea that he is not criminally responsible and we are responsible for protecting and pampering Vince Li for the rest of his days – teaching him to speak a better English, training him to improve his computer skills, while attacking anyone who opposes this treatment by declaring them insensitive to mental illness, is a package of insanity that forces us to call out. We call out those who pretend that Tim McLean has received justice, when he hasn’t. We call out those who pretend that it is safe to have Vince Li living among us when we know it isn’t. We side with Tim’s family who lost a son and with the family of a Mountie who lost a son who took his own life after having seen what he was forced to see while on duty near Portage nearly seven years ago.

And finally let’s tell the truth about the mentally ill, most of whom struggle for a measure of dignity every day of their lives while posing a threat to nobody. Let’s call out those in the legal and mental health systems who insult the dignity of these people by making Vince Li their poster child. They deserve better than this. They have earned it with the lives they have lived. What has Vince Li earned? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

http://www.cjob.com/2015/02/25/hanging-our-head-in-shame-for-tim-mclean/

* A cop took his life after being on the scene where Li committed his offence?

charles adler is an ultra-conservative fucking asshole of a dinosaur who lives and breathes on pissing people off with his radio rants.

HughFreakingDillon

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Ken Barker was the retired RCMP that killed himself. He suffered from PTSD and when Li was published in the news media, he began having flashbacks:

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/07/17/exmountie_commits_suicide_years_after_bus_beheading.html

read about that when it happened. very sad indeed. a cop friend of mine is getting the help he needs. he almost destroyed his own family because of the stigma revolving around mental illness as a police officer.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

paulonious said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Another perspective (it's not the entire piece):

It happened nearly seven years ago and for nearly seven years the legal system and mental health care system and politically correct phony system has tried to put layer after layer of plastic on the corpse of justice. First the Crown and defence agreed there would be no trial and no murder conviction because Vince Li, an immigrant from China, was not mentally fit to stand trial and could not have been mentally sound on that hot summer night near Portage where he destroyed the life and dignity of Tim McLean. Vince Li was found not criminally responsible and ever since then the Justice system has turned itself inside out to make it easy for Vince Li to re-enter society.

Let’s tell the truth. If Vince Li had been declared Not Criminally Responsible for the death of Tim McLean but was forced to serve a life sentence in a psychiatric institution, most of us could live with that. But the idea that he is not criminally responsible and we are responsible for protecting and pampering Vince Li for the rest of his days – teaching him to speak a better English, training him to improve his computer skills, while attacking anyone who opposes this treatment by declaring them insensitive to mental illness, is a package of insanity that forces us to call out. We call out those who pretend that Tim McLean has received justice, when he hasn’t. We call out those who pretend that it is safe to have Vince Li living among us when we know it isn’t. We side with Tim’s family who lost a son and with the family of a Mountie who lost a son who took his own life after having seen what he was forced to see while on duty near Portage nearly seven years ago.

And finally let’s tell the truth about the mentally ill, most of whom struggle for a measure of dignity every day of their lives while posing a threat to nobody. Let’s call out those in the legal and mental health systems who insult the dignity of these people by making Vince Li their poster child. They deserve better than this. They have earned it with the lives they have lived. What has Vince Li earned? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

http://www.cjob.com/2015/02/25/hanging-our-head-in-shame-for-tim-mclean/

* A cop took his life after being on the scene where Li committed his offence?

charles adler is an ultra-conservative fucking asshole of a dinosaur who lives and breathes on pissing people off with his radio rants.

I just offered it as a different perspective. Whether right or wrong... there are multiple perspectives on this issue.

Filter as you please.

I appreciated the piece you offered. I think it is worth noting that the core of the 'forgiveness' piece was rooted in religion. While both you and I (and others) have spoken against religion rather vociferously lately, your man Penner found peace through the grace of God. I wonder if he would have found the same place had he not been inspired by faith?

Thirty Bills Unpaid

paulonious said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Ken Barker was the retired RCMP that killed himself. He suffered from PTSD and when Li was published in the news media, he began having flashbacks:

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/07/17/exmountie_commits_suicide_years_after_bus_beheading.html

read about that when it happened. very sad indeed. a cop friend of mine is getting the help he needs. he almost destroyed his own family because of the stigma revolving around mental illness as a police officer.

Let's give him all the support he needs.

HughFreakingDillon

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

paulonious said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Another perspective (it's not the entire piece):

It happened nearly seven years ago and for nearly seven years the legal system and mental health care system and politically correct phony system has tried to put layer after layer of plastic on the corpse of justice. First the Crown and defence agreed there would be no trial and no murder conviction because Vince Li, an immigrant from China, was not mentally fit to stand trial and could not have been mentally sound on that hot summer night near Portage where he destroyed the life and dignity of Tim McLean. Vince Li was found not criminally responsible and ever since then the Justice system has turned itself inside out to make it easy for Vince Li to re-enter society.

Let’s tell the truth. If Vince Li had been declared Not Criminally Responsible for the death of Tim McLean but was forced to serve a life sentence in a psychiatric institution, most of us could live with that. But the idea that he is not criminally responsible and we are responsible for protecting and pampering Vince Li for the rest of his days – teaching him to speak a better English, training him to improve his computer skills, while attacking anyone who opposes this treatment by declaring them insensitive to mental illness, is a package of insanity that forces us to call out. We call out those who pretend that Tim McLean has received justice, when he hasn’t. We call out those who pretend that it is safe to have Vince Li living among us when we know it isn’t. We side with Tim’s family who lost a son and with the family of a Mountie who lost a son who took his own life after having seen what he was forced to see while on duty near Portage nearly seven years ago.

And finally let’s tell the truth about the mentally ill, most of whom struggle for a measure of dignity every day of their lives while posing a threat to nobody. Let’s call out those in the legal and mental health systems who insult the dignity of these people by making Vince Li their poster child. They deserve better than this. They have earned it with the lives they have lived. What has Vince Li earned? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

http://www.cjob.com/2015/02/25/hanging-our-head-in-shame-for-tim-mclean/

* A cop took his life after being on the scene where Li committed his offence?

charles adler is an ultra-conservative fucking asshole of a dinosaur who lives and breathes on pissing people off with his radio rants.

I just offered it as a different perspective. Whether right or wrong... there are multiple perspectives on this issue.

Filter as you please.

I appreciated the piece you offered. I think it is worth noting that the core of the 'forgiveness' piece was rooted in religion. While both you and I (and others) have spoken against religion rather vociferously lately, your man Penner found peace through the grace of God. I wonder if he would have found the same place had he not been inspired by faith?

yeah, I know, I just fucking hate that guy. that's all. I obviously understand that many people I love and respect would also believe as you do.

penner is not "my man". I saw an article related to this, and I posted it. I am neither posting it to further an agenda nor presenting it as the norm. had it been about Penner agreeing with Tim McLean's mom, I would have posted that as well.

yeah, there's no fucking way, if it was my wife and kid, that I could forgive like that. so I can appreciate where Tim Mcleans's mom is coming from. I'd probably be on the same path.

HughFreakingDillon

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

paulonious said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Ken Barker was the retired RCMP that killed himself. He suffered from PTSD and when Li was published in the news media, he began having flashbacks:

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/07/17/exmountie_commits_suicide_years_after_bus_beheading.html

read about that when it happened. very sad indeed. a cop friend of mine is getting the help he needs. he almost destroyed his own family because of the stigma revolving around mental illness as a police officer.

Let's give him all the support he needs.

I'm not quite sure if this is sarcasm or not.

HughFreakingDillon

and let's keep in mind that forgiving someone is more for the victim than it is for the perp. it helps the victim move on with their lives.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

paulonious said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

paulonious said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Ken Barker was the retired RCMP that killed himself. He suffered from PTSD and when Li was published in the news media, he began having flashbacks:

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/07/17/exmountie_commits_suicide_years_after_bus_beheading.html

read about that when it happened. very sad indeed. a cop friend of mine is getting the help he needs. he almost destroyed his own family because of the stigma revolving around mental illness as a police officer.

Let's give him all the support he needs.

I'm not quite sure if this is sarcasm or not.

Come on, man. It's not sarcasm. And I only penned 'your man' in the previous post because he was the focal point of your submission- intending nothing. I feel horrible for him.

HughFreakingDillon

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

paulonious said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

paulonious said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Ken Barker was the retired RCMP that killed himself. He suffered from PTSD and when Li was published in the news media, he began having flashbacks:

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/07/17/exmountie_commits_suicide_years_after_bus_beheading.html

read about that when it happened. very sad indeed. a cop friend of mine is getting the help he needs. he almost destroyed his own family because of the stigma revolving around mental illness as a police officer.

Let's give him all the support he needs.

I'm not quite sure if this is sarcasm or not.

Come on, man. It's not sarcasm. And I only penned 'your man' in the previous post because he was the focal point of your submission- intending nothing. I feel horrible for him.

no, I seriously wasn't sure. thanks for clarifying.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

paulonious said:

and let's keep in mind that forgiving someone is more for the victim than it is for the perp. it helps the victim move on with their lives.

For some, Hugh. For others... they need other things to occur for them to move on with their lives.

The Waiting Trophy Man

They just said Vince Li has been approved to live in a group home.

I bet no one gets a wink of sleep after he moves in.