Greyhound Bus Cannibal rehabilitated after 4 years?

pandora

pandora wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

In Canada our justice system does not operate the way the US does ( at least no yet )...and I prefer it that way. I think for the most part the system works well...we have a relatively safe country, no where I'm really afraid to go in this country...now just across the river in Detroit there are probably more places in all of that city that's more dangerous than all of Canada. So I find it kind of amusing when Americans question our justice system when it appears our system of rehabilitation for the most part works well. Do we have violent and dangerous criminals? Yes...most societies probably do. Is our system perfect? No. But I know I Canada is a safer country.

As for Pandora I thought the Bible and Christianity was all about forgiveness and second chances...especially in this case when it's obvious he was extremely mentally ill at the time. He did not know what he was doing, he was an immigrant to this country, which probably made it harder to access the help he needed...now that he's getting help I trust his Doctors will do the right thing for all involved...and he may never get out...and if he does he will likely be heavily supervised for life...as for now he is probably years away from re-entering society.

People need to understand we rarely keep people in jail for life...life is usually reserved for the most heinous criminals. Yet we have a relatively safe country and I never fear going anywhere.

Hundreth time ... not a Christian! Haven't read the Bible!

My faith tells me much but might be off topic so I won't elaborate.

I will say it does not tell me this man should be anywhere
but locked up for the safety of others, for the victim and his loved ones.

I went and laid down and thought about this post .. my reply sounded rude lukin2006
it was snappy :oops: to say 100th time when you genuinely
thought I was a Christian and were making a valid point. Please accept my apology.

I was also wondering what you meant when you said "at least not yet"
as far as our legal systems being different. It leads me to believe changes are taking place.
I am not up on Canadian justice system or law and learn much here about our differences.

pandora

fife wrote:

pandora wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

In Canada our justice system does not operate the way the US does ( at least no yet )...and I prefer it that way. I think for the most part the system works well...we have a relatively safe country, no where I'm really afraid to go in this country...now just across the river in Detroit there are probably more places in all of that city that's more dangerous than all of Canada. So I find it kind of amusing when Americans question our justice system when it appears our system of rehabilitation for the most part works well. Do we have violent and dangerous criminals? Yes...most societies probably do. Is our system perfect? No. But I know I Canada is a safer country.

As for Pandora I thought the Bible and Christianity was all about forgiveness and second chances...especially in this case when it's obvious he was extremely mentally ill at the time. He did not know what he was doing, he was an immigrant to this country, which probably made it harder to access the help he needed...now that he's getting help I trust his Doctors will do the right thing for all involved...and he may never get out...and if he does he will likely be heavily supervised for life...as for now he is probably years away from re-entering society.

People need to understand we rarely keep people in jail for life...life is usually reserved for the most heinous criminals. Yet we have a relatively safe country and I never fear going anywhere.

Hundreth time ... not a Christian! Haven't read the Bible!

My faith tells me much but might be off topic so I won't elaborate.

I will say it does not tell me this man should be anywhere
but locked up for the safety of others, for the victim and his loved ones.

Ok i have heard you say this many times i.e. for the victim and his loved ones. do you really think the victim cares NO! does the family care YES but why do they? is it for safety or vengeance?

we believe that Jail is just not about punishment but also about correcting. Hence the name Correctional Services of Canada. no time in jail is going to bring this person back to live. the family is always going to be grieving no matter what.

From the Mama's words she did not sound vengeful.
My words come from respect for the loss of life and trauma and pain for the loved ones.
The word justice also comes to mind. A life was taken that is the highest crime,
the ripple effect almost unimaginable. I believe in loss of freedom for this act.

pandora

lukin2006 wrote:

pandora wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

In Canada our justice system does not operate the way the US does ( at least no yet )...and I prefer it that way. I think for the most part the system works well...we have a relatively safe country, no where I'm really afraid to go in this country...now just across the river in Detroit there are probably more places in all of that city that's more dangerous than all of Canada. So I find it kind of amusing when Americans question our justice system when it appears our system of rehabilitation for the most part works well. Do we have violent and dangerous criminals? Yes...most societies probably do. Is our system perfect? No. But I know I Canada is a safer country.

As for Pandora I thought the Bible and Christianity was all about forgiveness and second chances...especially in this case when it's obvious he was extremely mentally ill at the time. He did not know what he was doing, he was an immigrant to this country, which probably made it harder to access the help he needed...now that he's getting help I trust his Doctors will do the right thing for all involved...and he may never get out...and if he does he will likely be heavily supervised for life...as for now he is probably years away from re-entering society.

People need to understand we rarely keep people in jail for life...life is usually reserved for the most heinous criminals. Yet we have a relatively safe country and I never fear going anywhere.

Hundreth time ... not a Christian! Haven't read the Bible!

My faith tells me much but might be off topic so I won't elaborate.

I will say it does not tell me this man should be anywhere
but locked up for the safety of others, for the victim and his loved ones.

maybe you should stick American Idol and not enter a topic on Canadian Justice until you understand how our system works...we try to rehabilitate except those who have committed the most heinous acts and yet we have a pretty safe society...

oh... I didn't see this I understand, my fault, I was snappy....

I think I can still have an opinion ie enter in a thread, :?
and I think that was even the original topic at hand by the OP.

Also we see much advice input for our America from Canadians
on this board. yes?

It's all good and friendly and I think you'll see I have not bad mouthed Canada
in this or any thread cause that is not how I feel.

I believe in a different type of justice though for murderers, that is,
loss of freedom and removal from society.

In this case I agree he is mentally ill and should stay incarcerated
in a hospital but I would never agree with outside visits or rejoining society.
I have seen in the thread I am not alone. And yes I adore AI

Hugh Freaking Dillon

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

Holy crap, man. I get your bolded emphasis. It's not too complex a point- it's just one I'm not going to buy into. You commit a crime... you are a criminal: drunk, high, angry, ill, whatever. Dismiss Li's heinous act any way you want (even if your dismissal is so because the lawyers and judges said), but I'm not prepared to do so.

You talk about jumping up on pedestals, yet you've perched yourself on the highest one with your claims of nervous breakdowns over your angst, how humanitarian you are, and how you've assumed the noble and difficult position to take while losers like me are just morons (I stupified you earlier!)... while at the same time mocking my position that happens to be contrary to yours. And you talk about jokes? Jeez, man. Seriously.

I'm not, nor never will agree with you on this one. What I can say is that you are entitled to your position... so enjoy it.

no one is dismissing what was done. it was horrifying. but do you understand mental illness at all? it doesn't seem as though you do. no one uses mental illness as an excuse. nobody can fool profesionally trained doctors into thinking they are sick.

I never said anyone was a loser or a moron. those are your words, not mine. I never claimed my position was noble, it's just the less popular decision to take, because people think I'm defending the ACT, which I'm not, I'm defending the root cause of it. that's, what I believe, is what people like you fail to seperate, the act from the cause.

all I was trying to illustrate with my mental state at the time of the beheading was that it's not that I'm soft on crime; this incident distrubed me to my very core, but I can't blame the person who commited the act because of the illness that is obviously present.

everyone says "you'd feel differently if Tim Mclean was your son". well you know what? maybe YOU'D feel differently if Vince Li was your son. at least I hope you would.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

For those interested in the Pickton story, Stevie Cameron wrote a book 'On The Farm'. She followed the trial and due to publication bans was unable to print it until the ban was lifted.

It details the tale and is an excellent... excellent read. She does a really good job of laying out the histories of Picton as well as most of the higher profile victims. She also does an outstanding job describing the police force inefficiency, petty jealousies preventing progress for the case, and the public's apathy (given the victims were mostly... well all... prostitutes).

The gory details- outside of critical elements to the prosecution's case- are left undescribed. If this story could be done tastefully... she managed to do it.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

Holy crap, man. I get your bolded emphasis. It's not too complex a point- it's just one I'm not going to buy into. You commit a crime... you are a criminal: drunk, high, angry, ill, whatever. Dismiss Li's heinous act any way you want (even if your dismissal is so because the lawyers and judges said), but I'm not prepared to do so.

You talk about jumping up on pedestals, yet you've perched yourself on the highest one with your claims of nervous breakdowns over your angst, how humanitarian you are, and how you've assumed the noble and difficult position to take while losers like me are just morons (I stupified you earlier!)... while at the same time mocking my position that happens to be contrary to yours. And you talk about jokes? Jeez, man. Seriously.

I'm not, nor never will agree with you on this one. What I can say is that you are entitled to your position... so enjoy it.

no one is dismissing what was done. it was horrifying. but do you understand mental illness at all? it doesn't seem as though you do. no one uses mental illness as an excuse. nobody can fool profesionally trained doctors into thinking they are sick.

I never said anyone was a loser or a moron. those are your words, not mine. I never claimed my position was noble, it's just the less popular decision to take, because people think I'm defending the ACT, which I'm not, I'm defending the root cause of it. that's, what I believe, is what people like you fail to seperate, the act from the cause.

all I was trying to illustrate with my mental state at the time of the beheading was that it's not that I'm soft on crime; this incident distrubed me to my very core, but I can't blame the person who commited the act because of the illness that is obviously present.

everyone says "you'd feel differently if Tim Mclean was your son". well you know what? maybe YOU'D feel differently if Vince Li was your son. at least I hope you would.

I would. I tell my son all the time that I will love him no matter what. I also tell him that I might not be able to defend some of his actions, but nothing could or ever will change the fact that I love him more than anything.

Hugh, you're passionate about your position and I respect that. I also respect your point of view. It seemed as if you were going at me personally because my perspective is different than yours. As passionate as you are for yours, I am for mine. We can leave it at that can't we? This isn't so much an agreement forum as it is a discussion forum- I hold nothing against you- you're well-written and intelligent. I get where you are at.

I understand mental illness and there is a side of me that feels for Li. But... I remain steadfast in my personal philosophy that has already been stated ad nauseam. Keep true to yours as well- I certainly hope I didn't come across as bullying you into seeing things my way!

hedonist

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

I would. I tell my son all the time that I will love him no matter what. I also tell him that I might not be able to defend some of his actions, but nothing could or ever will change the fact that I love him more than anything.

Hugh, you're passionate about your position and I respect that. I also respect your point of view. It seemed as if you were going at me personally because my perspective is different than yours. As passionate as you are for yours, I am for mine. We can leave it at that can't we? This isn't so much an agreement forum as it is a discussion forum- I hold nothing against you- you're well-written and intelligent. I get where you are at.

I understand mental illness and there is a side of me that feels for Li. But... I remain steadfast in my personal philosophy that has already been stated ad nauseam. Keep true to yours as well- I certainly hope I didn't come across as bullying you into seeing things my way!

Very cool to see this.

Talk about well-written and intelligent - both of you.

Thanks.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

hedonist wrote:

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

I would. I tell my son all the time that I will love him no matter what. I also tell him that I might not be able to defend some of his actions, but nothing could or ever will change the fact that I love him more than anything.

Hugh, you're passionate about your position and I respect that. I also respect your point of view. It seemed as if you were going at me personally because my perspective is different than yours. As passionate as you are for yours, I am for mine. We can leave it at that can't we? This isn't so much an agreement forum as it is a discussion forum- I hold nothing against you- you're well-written and intelligent. I get where you are at.

I understand mental illness and there is a side of me that feels for Li. But... I remain steadfast in my personal philosophy that has already been stated ad nauseam. Keep true to yours as well- I certainly hope I didn't come across as bullying you into seeing things my way!

Very cool to see this.

Talk about well-written and intelligent - both of you.

Thanks.

agreed. :thumbup:

Hugh Freaking Dillon

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

It seemed as if you were going at me personally because my perspective is different than yours.

I wasn't. if it came across that way, I do apologize.

lukin2006

pandora wrote:

pandora wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

In Canada our justice system does not operate the way the US does ( at least no yet )...and I prefer it that way. I think for the most part the system works well...we have a relatively safe country, no where I'm really afraid to go in this country...now just across the river in Detroit there are probably more places in all of that city that's more dangerous than all of Canada. So I find it kind of amusing when Americans question our justice system when it appears our system of rehabilitation for the most part works well. Do we have violent and dangerous criminals? Yes...most societies probably do. Is our system perfect? No. But I know I Canada is a safer country.

As for Pandora I thought the Bible and Christianity was all about forgiveness and second chances...especially in this case when it's obvious he was extremely mentally ill at the time. He did not know what he was doing, he was an immigrant to this country, which probably made it harder to access the help he needed...now that he's getting help I trust his Doctors will do the right thing for all involved...and he may never get out...and if he does he will likely be heavily supervised for life...as for now he is probably years away from re-entering society.

People need to understand we rarely keep people in jail for life...life is usually reserved for the most heinous criminals. Yet we have a relatively safe country and I never fear going anywhere.

Hundreth time ... not a Christian! Haven't read the Bible!

My faith tells me much but might be off topic so I won't elaborate.

I will say it does not tell me this man should be anywhere
but locked up for the safety of others, for the victim and his loved ones.

I went and laid down and thought about this post .. my reply sounded rude lukin2006
it was snappy :oops: to say 100th time when you genuinely
thought I was a Christian and were making a valid point. Please accept my apology.

I was also wondering what you meant when you said "at least not yet"
as far as our legal systems being different. It leads me to believe changes are taking place.
I am not up on Canadian justice system or law and learn much here about our differences.

No need for any apology, no offense was taken.

Our current Prime Minister is planning on building super prisons and our current government just passed a huge crime bill that brings about tougher, longer and mandatory sentences.

Our current justice system focuses on rehabilitation...and prisoners go through a process before re-entering society. I'm afraid this current government will do away with these rehab programs and just release prisoners upon completion of their sentence. I think this could cause them to re offend.

fife

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

For those interested in the Pickton story, Stevie Cameron wrote a book 'On The Farm'. She followed the trial and due to publication bans was unable to print it until the ban was lifted.

It details the tale and is an excellent... excellent read. She does a really good job of laying out the histories of Picton as well as most of the higher profile victims. She also does an outstanding job describing the police force inefficiency, petty jealousies preventing progress for the case, and the public's apathy (given the victims were mostly... well all... prostitutes).

The gory details- outside of critical elements to the prosecution's case- are left undescribed. If this story could be done tastefully... she managed to do it.

I have hear od this book but have never picked it up.

also, leave it to a canadian thread where 2 people say sorry to eachother. so very canadian, I cant remember the last time i saw this.

fife

pandora wrote:

pandora wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

In Canada our justice system does not operate the way the US does ( at least no yet )...and I prefer it that way. I think for the most part the system works well...we have a relatively safe country, no where I'm really afraid to go in this country...now just across the river in Detroit there are probably more places in all of that city that's more dangerous than all of Canada. So I find it kind of amusing when Americans question our justice system when it appears our system of rehabilitation for the most part works well. Do we have violent and dangerous criminals? Yes...most societies probably do. Is our system perfect? No. But I know I Canada is a safer country.

As for Pandora I thought the Bible and Christianity was all about forgiveness and second chances...especially in this case when it's obvious he was extremely mentally ill at the time. He did not know what he was doing, he was an immigrant to this country, which probably made it harder to access the help he needed...now that he's getting help I trust his Doctors will do the right thing for all involved...and he may never get out...and if he does he will likely be heavily supervised for life...as for now he is probably years away from re-entering society.

People need to understand we rarely keep people in jail for life...life is usually reserved for the most heinous criminals. Yet we have a relatively safe country and I never fear going anywhere.

Hundreth time ... not a Christian! Haven't read the Bible!

My faith tells me much but might be off topic so I won't elaborate.

I will say it does not tell me this man should be anywhere
but locked up for the safety of others, for the victim and his loved ones.

I went and laid down and thought about this post .. my reply sounded rude lukin2006
it was snappy :oops: to say 100th time when you genuinely
thought I was a Christian and were making a valid point. Please accept my apology.

I was also wondering what you meant when you said "at least not yet"
as far as our legal systems being different. It leads me to believe changes are taking place.
I am not up on Canadian justice system or law and learn much here about our differences.

No need for any apology, no offense was taken.

Our current Prime Minister is planning on building super prisons and our current government just passed a huge crime bill that brings about tougher, longer and mandatory sentences.

Our current justice system focuses on rehabilitation...and prisoners go through a process before re-entering society. I'm afraid this current government will do away with these rehab programs and just release prisoners upon completion of their sentence. I think this could cause them to re offend.[/quote]

Agree with this statement 100% and I hope we don't turn into a american style justice system

chadwick

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

hedonist wrote:

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

I would. I tell my son all the time that I will love him no matter what. I also tell him that I might not be able to defend some of his actions, but nothing could or ever will change the fact that I love him more than anything.

Hugh, you're passionate about your position and I respect that. I also respect your point of view. It seemed as if you were going at me personally because my perspective is different than yours. As passionate as you are for yours, I am for mine. We can leave it at that can't we? This isn't so much an agreement forum as it is a discussion forum- I hold nothing against you- you're well-written and intelligent. I get where you are at.

I understand mental illness and there is a side of me that feels for Li. But... I remain steadfast in my personal philosophy that has already been stated ad nauseam. Keep true to yours as well- I certainly hope I didn't come across as bullying you into seeing things my way!

Very cool to see this.

Talk about well-written and intelligent - both of you.

Thanks.

agreed. :thumbup:

+1

pandora

lukin2006 wrote:

No need for any apology, no offense was taken.

Our current Prime Minister is planning on building super prisons and our current government just passed a huge crime bill that brings about tougher, longer and mandatory sentences.

Our current justice system focuses on rehabilitation...and prisoners go through a process before re-entering society. I'm afraid this current government will do away with these rehab programs and just release prisoners upon completion of their sentence. I think this could cause them to re offend.

Thank you...
I fear you are correct, I'm sorry for these changes.

Is there a need/ demand for super prisons?

For those leaving our prisons it's so very hard to find work.
Many employers not so keen on hiring and the hiring pool so huge to pick from now.
It will soon be flooded with vets too.
This making those released more likely to reoffend simply because there is not
an honest job for them.

The world is getting messier by the minute.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

It seemed as if you were going at me personally because my perspective is different than yours.

I wasn't. if it came across that way, I do apologize.

No problems. It's tough for me to interpret delivery- chatting via internet- without seeing facial expressions, reading body language, and not knowing the other person (other than their username).

lukin2006

pandora wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

No need for any apology, no offense was taken.

Our current Prime Minister is planning on building super prisons and our current government just passed a huge crime bill that brings about tougher, longer and mandatory sentences.

Our current justice system focuses on rehabilitation...and prisoners go through a process before re-entering society. I'm afraid this current government will do away with these rehab programs and just release prisoners upon completion of their sentence. I think this could cause them to re offend.

Thank you...
I fear you are correct, I'm sorry for these changes.

Is there a need/ demand for super prisons?

For those leaving our prisons it's so very hard to find work.
Many employers not so keen on hiring and the hiring pool so huge to pick from now.
It will soon be flooded with vets too.
This making those released more likely to reoffend simply because there is not
an honest job for them.

The world is getting messier by the minute.

No there is no need for it and our crime rate is at the lowest its been in quite sometime. I really mean this Canada is fairly safe...

Hugh Freaking Dillon

lukin2006 wrote:

No there is no need for it and our crime rate is at the lowest its been in quite sometime. I really mean this Canada is fairly safe...

not winnipeg. we're becoming the detroit of Canada. the gang problem is out of control. we need more cops, tougher judges that keep these little fuckers behind bars longer instead of waiting for them to show up in front of them for the 34th time. it's a joke.

maybe relatively speaking we're safer, but I'd say we're at the worst we've been in some time.

lukin2006

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

No there is no need for it and our crime rate is at the lowest its been in quite sometime. I really mean this Canada is fairly safe...

not winnipeg. we're becoming the detroit of Canada. the gang problem is out of control. we need more cops, tougher judges that keep these little fuckers behind bars longer instead of waiting for them to show up in front of them for the 34th time. it's a joke.

maybe relatively speaking we're safer, but I'd say we're at the worst we've been in some time.

I live across from Detroit...I wouldn't wish that city on anyone.

fife

pandora wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

No need for any apology, no offense was taken.

Our current Prime Minister is planning on building super prisons and our current government just passed a huge crime bill that brings about tougher, longer and mandatory sentences.

Our current justice system focuses on rehabilitation...and prisoners go through a process before re-entering society. I'm afraid this current government will do away with these rehab programs and just release prisoners upon completion of their sentence. I think this could cause them to re offend.

Thank you...
I fear you are correct, I'm sorry for these changes.

Is there a need/ demand for super prisons?

For those leaving our prisons it's so very hard to find work.
Many employers not so keen on hiring and the hiring pool so huge to pick from now.
It will soon be flooded with vets too.
This making those released more likely to reoffend simply because there is not
an honest job for them.

The world is getting messier by the minute.

Agree 100 % on this point. not only is it hard for people being released to find jobs but also housing. I se it everyday.

as for the super prison, one of the biggest issues that our current government has done is move away from from stats that were collected before with a long form census. what that has done is make it easier for the government to do many things that are needed.

for example, when trying to justify the super prison, we had a member of the government say that more jails are needed as UNREPORTED crime in up. just think about that.

Its a joke.

Kel Varnsen

lukin2006 wrote:

pandora wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

No need for any apology, no offense was taken.

Our current Prime Minister is planning on building super prisons and our current government just passed a huge crime bill that brings about tougher, longer and mandatory sentences.

Our current justice system focuses on rehabilitation...and prisoners go through a process before re-entering society. I'm afraid this current government will do away with these rehab programs and just release prisoners upon completion of their sentence. I think this could cause them to re offend.

Thank you...
I fear you are correct, I'm sorry for these changes.

Is there a need/ demand for super prisons?

For those leaving our prisons it's so very hard to find work.
Many employers not so keen on hiring and the hiring pool so huge to pick from now.
It will soon be flooded with vets too.
This making those released more likely to reoffend simply because there is not
an honest job for them.

The world is getting messier by the minute.

No there is no need for it and our crime rate is at the lowest its been in quite sometime. I really mean this Canada is fairly safe...

To be fair though, canada already has one super prison. It is located in Quebec, it opened in the mid 1980's and it is where Mom Boucher (the former leader of the Montreal Hells angels) is and where the Clifford Olsen was before he died.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Handling_Unit