Do people seriously think this dude has any chance of rehabilitation (or even desreve it for that matter)? Fuk's sakes, man. Seriously? I don't give a shit how many doctors and social workers are clapping their hands and nodding approvingly at each other over the progress they think they have made with this fuking moron. He's beyond rehabilitation.
"Let them eat cake!" Out of touch with reality.
For every 'successful' rehabilitation, there are countless failures that have spawned pain and misery on people who were simply placed in harm's way by idiots with diplomas. What weight bears on the minds of enlightened social working know-it-alls, parole boards, and wet tissue wristed judges after they discover their missentenced, rehabilitated and released convict has gone and raped/killed/brutalized an innocent person/family?
Some people have it figured out: Canada is fucked up with how far we've gone to protect criminals' rights. Sadly, some posts on here reflect more empathy towards the creep instead of the proper amount of sensitivity to the poor chap who he turned into Mr. Potato Head.
your point is moot since you called him a criminal. he is not. the defense AND the prosecution agree on this.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I stand by my assertion... With no facts to back it up.
Gotchya.
Opinions....aren't they just great?
I have read several of yours Byrnzie. And, if you are going to quote me... quote me in the proper context. There was a little more to what I said than the cut and paste job you've presented.
Are you suggesting my opinion bears no merit? Or are you just taking a snide shot at me?
I am just incredibly stupified that people are comparing someone who is mentally ill to that of someone who is a repeat criminal with no mental illness background.
that's like comparing someone with cancer to that of someone who's 400 pounds because they eat at McDonald's every day.
1) Vince Li is making no excuses. He actually just released an interview and he was quoted as saying that he thinks it would have been justified for the RCMP to shoot and kill him on the bus. He believes he does not deserve freedom, that he does not deserve to be alive.
2) he is NOT a criminal. he was found NOT CRIMINALLY RESPONSIBLE BY JOINT RECOMMENDATION BY THE CROWN AND THE DEFENSE.
3) the justice system does not, NOR SHOULD IT, govern its decisions of parole or not based on the feelings of those left to mourn. just put the family on the fucking jury if you want to go down that road.
4) Vince Li is also a victim.
5) one of his doctors said he'd be more than confident to have him over to his house to be with his family. does that sound like a guy who is afraid Li will reoffend?
6) he is NOT getting released? you people are talking like he's headed to Disney for vacation. Yes, this is the first step towards EVENTUAL freedom. this guy ain't no fucking ninja. he's not going to wait for this spot and take down his nurse and armed guard and then flee into downtown Selkirk and bite someone's nose off.
people need to really understand that there is complete difference between mental illness and being a fucking scumbag. there are drugs to help the mentally ill. if there were drugs for being an homicidal asshole, our prisons would be empty.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I am just incredibly stupified that people are comparing someone who is mentally ill to that of someone who is a repeat criminal with no mental illness background.
that's like comparing someone with cancer to that of someone who's 400 pounds because they eat at McDonald's every day.
1) Vince Li is making no excuses. He actually just released an interview and he was quoted as saying that he thinks it would have been justified for the RCMP to shoot and kill him on the bus. He believes he does not deserve freedom, that he does not deserve to be alive.
2) he is NOT a criminal. he was found NOT CRIMINALLY RESPONSIBLE BY JOINT RECOMMENDATION BY THE CROWN AND THE DEFENSE.
3) the justice system does not, NOR SHOULD IT, govern its decisions of parole or not based on the feelings of those left to mourn. just put the family on the fucking jury if you want to go down that road.
4) Vince Li is also a victim.
5) one of his doctors said he'd be more than confident to have him over to his house to be with his family. does that sound like a guy who is afraid Li will reoffend?
6) he is NOT getting released? you people are talking like he's headed to Disney for vacation. Yes, this is the first step towards EVENTUAL freedom. this guy ain't no fucking ninja. he's not going to wait for this spot and take down his nurse and armed guard and then flee into downtown Selkirk and bite someone's nose off.
people need to really understand that there is complete difference between mental illness and being a fucking scumbag. there are drugs to help the mentally ill. if there were drugs for being an homicidal asshole, our prisons would be empty.
Don't be stupified, Hugh. And yes, we get it- you feel sorry for Li (you referred to him as a victim in your rant). While defending Li, you fail to even once pay a small token of reverence for Tim McLean. Guys like me talk for him. Whether right or wrong... we are polarized on issues such as this: you lean much more to criminal's rights than I ever could.
Tim McLean was a victim of a crime. Li perpetrated it. It's not that hard to get your head around is it? Let the legal beagles wrangle with terminology as they navigate their way through their trial. Let other people call a spade a spade. The formalities of the courts need not apply here and if they do... count me out.
I stand by my assertion... With no facts to back it up.
Gotchya.
Opinions....aren't they just great?
I have read several of yours Byrnzie. And, if you are going to quote me... quote me in the proper context. There was a little more to what I said than the cut and paste job you've presented.
Are you suggesting my opinion bears no merit? Or are you just taking a snide shot at me?
Don't be stupified, Hugh. And yes, we get it- you feel sorry for Li (you referred to him as a victim in your rant). While defending Li, you fail to even once pay a small token of reverence for Tim McLean. Guys like me talk for him. Whether right or wrong... we are polarized on issues such as this: you lean much more to criminal's rights than I ever could.
Tim McLean was a victim of a crime. Li perpetrated it. It's not that hard to get your head around is it? Let the legal beagles wrangle with terminology as they navigate their way through their trial. Let other people call a spade a spade. The formalities of the courts need not apply here and if they do... count me out.
what you fail to understand is that I don't lean to criminal's rights, I lean to human rights. I actually believe we should be tougher on crime, especially violent ones.
I'LL SAY THIS ONE MORE TIME SO YOU CAN GET IT: VINCE LI IS NOT A CONVICTED CRIMINAL. HE IS ILL.
I mentioned Tim Mclean in my first few posts in this thread, along with my near nervous breakdown 4 years ago when this happened, feeling for Tim Mclean and his family, hearing the horrifying details of what went on not 20 miles from my house, but I won't get wrangled away from the issue of the thread, and that is should or should not Vince Li be given some basic human rights as he improves his mental condition.
put yourself on a pedestal if you must with your "guys like me speak for the victim"-what a joke. sometimes people need to take the unpopular task of speaking for all victims, not just the obvious ones.
make no mistake. Tim Mclean is a victim, along with all who knew and loved him. Vince Li is a victim. Along with all that know and love him.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Don't be stupified, Hugh. And yes, we get it- you feel sorry for Li (you referred to him as a victim in your rant). While defending Li, you fail to even once pay a small token of reverence for Tim McLean. Guys like me talk for him. Whether right or wrong... we are polarized on issues such as this: you lean much more to criminal's rights than I ever could.
Tim McLean was a victim of a crime. Li perpetrated it. It's not that hard to get your head around is it? Let the legal beagles wrangle with terminology as they navigate their way through their trial. Let other people call a spade a spade. The formalities of the courts need not apply here and if they do... count me out.
what you fail to understand is that I don't lean to criminal's rights, I lean to human rights. I actually believe we should be tougher on crime, especially violent ones.
I'LL SAY THIS ONE MORE TIME SO YOU CAN GET IT: VINCE LI IS NOT A CONVICTED CRIMINAL. HE IS ILL.
I mentioned Tim Mclean in my first few posts in this thread, along with my near nervous breakdown 4 years ago when this happened, feeling for Tim Mclean and his family, hearing the horrifying details of what went on not 20 miles from my house, but I won't get wrangled away from the issue of the thread, and that is should or should not Vince Li be given some basic human rights as he improves his mental condition.
put yourself on a pedestal if you must with your "guys like me speak for the victim"-what a joke. sometimes people need to take the unpopular task of speaking for all victims, not just the obvious ones.
make no mistake. Tim Mclean is a victim, along with all who knew and loved him. Vince Li is a victim. Along with all that know and love him.
Holy crap, man. I get your bolded emphasis. It's not too complex a point- it's just one I'm not going to buy into. You commit a crime... you are a criminal: drunk, high, angry, ill, whatever. Dismiss Li's heinous act any way you want (even if your dismissal is so because the lawyers and judges said), but I'm not prepared to do so.
You talk about jumping up on pedestals, yet you've perched yourself on the highest one with your claims of nervous breakdowns over your angst, how humanitarian you are, and how you've assumed the noble and difficult position to take while losers like me are just morons (I stupified you earlier!)... while at the same time mocking my position that happens to be contrary to yours. And you talk about jokes? Jeez, man. Seriously.
I'm not, nor never will agree with you on this one. What I can say is that you are entitled to your position... so enjoy it.
It's interesting to witness the two current threads on this board discussing the harshness....or lack thereof....of crime sentences in some high profile cases.
For one, I think the sentence in the voyeur case was too much, but here I side with those who don't think he should be taking visits outside of the place where he is held.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I have experienced Paranoid Schizophrenia first hand,
though the violence was not at this level of course.
In some cases not directed at others.
We know there is no cure only control with meds.
The nature of the disease lends to patients not wanting to take their meds due to
paranoia and breeches with reality,
so a continual controlled environment is often required depending on severity.
I have also seen relapses while on meds requiring reevaluation and return
to hospitalization. Because this is possible and perhaps likely in this case,
and because of the level of past violence towards humanity, this man should stay locked
up with no chance of freedom.
I feel.... a better safe than sorry is in order with the lives of others at stake.
I am just incredibly stupified that people are comparing someone who is mentally ill to that of someone who is a repeat criminal with no mental illness background.
that's like comparing someone with cancer to that of someone who's 400 pounds because they eat at McDonald's every day.
1) Vince Li is making no excuses. He actually just released an interview and he was quoted as saying that he thinks it would have been justified for the RCMP to shoot and kill him on the bus. He believes he does not deserve freedom, that he does not deserve to be alive.
2) he is NOT a criminal. he was found NOT CRIMINALLY RESPONSIBLE BY JOINT RECOMMENDATION BY THE CROWN AND THE DEFENSE.
3) the justice system does not, NOR SHOULD IT, govern its decisions of parole or not based on the feelings of those left to mourn. just put the family on the fucking jury if you want to go down that road.
4) Vince Li is also a victim.
5) one of his doctors said he'd be more than confident to have him over to his house to be with his family. does that sound like a guy who is afraid Li will reoffend?
6) he is NOT getting released? you people are talking like he's headed to Disney for vacation. Yes, this is the first step towards EVENTUAL freedom. this guy ain't no fucking ninja. he's not going to wait for this spot and take down his nurse and armed guard and then flee into downtown Selkirk and bite someone's nose off.
people need to really understand that there is complete difference between mental illness and being a fucking scumbag. there are drugs to help the mentally ill. if there were drugs for being an homicidal asshole, our prisons would be empty.
I find myself agreeing with you on almost everything. No different here.
In Canada our justice system does not operate the way the US does ( at least no yet )...and I prefer it that way. I think for the most part the system works well...we have a relatively safe country, no where I'm really afraid to go in this country...now just across the river in Detroit there are probably more places in all of that city that's more dangerous than all of Canada. So I find it kind of amusing when Americans question our justice system when it appears our system of rehabilitation for the most part works well. Do we have violent and dangerous criminals? Yes...most societies probably do. Is our system perfect? No. But I know I Canada is a safer country.
As for Pandora I thought the Bible and Christianity was all about forgiveness and second chances...especially in this case when it's obvious he was extremely mentally ill at the time. He did not know what he was doing, he was an immigrant to this country, which probably made it harder to access the help he needed...now that he's getting help I trust his Doctors will do the right thing for all involved...and he may never get out...and if he does he will likely be heavily supervised for life...as for now he is probably years away from re-entering society.
People need to understand we rarely keep people in jail for life...life is usually reserved for the most heinous criminals. Yet we have a relatively safe country and I never fear going anywhere.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
In Canada our justice system does not operate the way the US does ( at least no yet )...and I prefer it that way. I think for the most part the system works well...we have a relatively safe country, no where I'm really afraid to go in this country...now just across the river in Detroit there are probably more places in all of that city that's more dangerous than all of Canada. So I find it kind of amusing when Americans question our justice system when it appears our system of rehabilitation for the most part works well. Do we have violent and dangerous criminals? Yes...most societies probably do. Is our system perfect? No. But I know I Canada is a safer country.
As for Pandora I thought the Bible and Christianity was all about forgiveness and second chances...especially in this case when it's obvious he was extremely mentally ill at the time. He did not know what he was doing, he was an immigrant to this country, which probably made it harder to access the help he needed...now that he's getting help I trust his Doctors will do the right thing for all involved...and he may never get out...and if he does he will likely be heavily supervised for life...as for now he is probably years away from re-entering society.
People need to understand we rarely keep people in jail for life...life is usually reserved for the most heinous criminals. Yet we have a relatively safe country and I never fear going anywhere.
Hundreth time ... not a Christian! Haven't read the Bible!
My faith tells me much but might be off topic so I won't elaborate.
I will say it does not tell me this man should be anywhere
but locked up for the safety of others, for the victim and his loved ones.
In Canada our justice system does not operate the way the US does ( at least no yet )...and I prefer it that way. I think for the most part the system works well...we have a relatively safe country, no where I'm really afraid to go in this country...now just across the river in Detroit there are probably more places in all of that city that's more dangerous than all of Canada. So I find it kind of amusing when Americans question our justice system when it appears our system of rehabilitation for the most part works well. Do we have violent and dangerous criminals? Yes...most societies probably do. Is our system perfect? No. But I know I Canada is a safer country.
As for Pandora I thought the Bible and Christianity was all about forgiveness and second chances...especially in this case when it's obvious he was extremely mentally ill at the time. He did not know what he was doing, he was an immigrant to this country, which probably made it harder to access the help he needed...now that he's getting help I trust his Doctors will do the right thing for all involved...and he may never get out...and if he does he will likely be heavily supervised for life...as for now he is probably years away from re-entering society.
People need to understand we rarely keep people in jail for life...life is usually reserved for the most heinous criminals. Yet we have a relatively safe country and I never fear going anywhere.
Hundreth time ... not a Christian! Haven't read the Bible!
My faith tells me much but might be off topic so I won't elaborate.
I will say it does not tell me this man should be anywhere
but locked up for the safety of others, for the victim and his loved ones.
Ok i have heard you say this many times i.e. for the victim and his loved ones. do you really think the victim cares NO! does the family care YES but why do they? is it for safety or vengeance?
we believe that Jail is just not about punishment but also about correcting. Hence the name Correctional Services of Canada. no time in jail is going to bring this person back to live. the family is always going to be grieving no matter what.
In Canada our justice system does not operate the way the US does ( at least no yet )...and I prefer it that way. I think for the most part the system works well...we have a relatively safe country, no where I'm really afraid to go in this country...now just across the river in Detroit there are probably more places in all of that city that's more dangerous than all of Canada. So I find it kind of amusing when Americans question our justice system when it appears our system of rehabilitation for the most part works well. Do we have violent and dangerous criminals? Yes...most societies probably do. Is our system perfect? No. But I know I Canada is a safer country.
As for Pandora I thought the Bible and Christianity was all about forgiveness and second chances...especially in this case when it's obvious he was extremely mentally ill at the time. He did not know what he was doing, he was an immigrant to this country, which probably made it harder to access the help he needed...now that he's getting help I trust his Doctors will do the right thing for all involved...and he may never get out...and if he does he will likely be heavily supervised for life...as for now he is probably years away from re-entering society.
People need to understand we rarely keep people in jail for life...life is usually reserved for the most heinous criminals. Yet we have a relatively safe country and I never fear going anywhere.
Hundreth time ... not a Christian! Haven't read the Bible!
My faith tells me much but might be off topic so I won't elaborate.
I will say it does not tell me this man should be anywhere
but locked up for the safety of others, for the victim and his loved ones.
Ok i have heard you say this many times i.e. for the victim and his loved ones. do you really think the victim cares NO! does the family care YES but why do they? is it for safety or vengeance?
we believe that Jail is just not about punishment but also about correcting. Hence the name Correctional Services of Canada. no time in jail is going to bring this person back to live. the family is always going to be grieving no matter what.
well said...why is so hard to understand for some people? and yet we have a relatively safe country.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
In Canada our justice system does not operate the way the US does ( at least no yet )...and I prefer it that way. I think for the most part the system works well...we have a relatively safe country, no where I'm really afraid to go in this country...now just across the river in Detroit there are probably more places in all of that city that's more dangerous than all of Canada. So I find it kind of amusing when Americans question our justice system when it appears our system of rehabilitation for the most part works well. Do we have violent and dangerous criminals? Yes...most societies probably do. Is our system perfect? No. But I know I Canada is a safer country.
As for Pandora I thought the Bible and Christianity was all about forgiveness and second chances...especially in this case when it's obvious he was extremely mentally ill at the time. He did not know what he was doing, he was an immigrant to this country, which probably made it harder to access the help he needed...now that he's getting help I trust his Doctors will do the right thing for all involved...and he may never get out...and if he does he will likely be heavily supervised for life...as for now he is probably years away from re-entering society.
People need to understand we rarely keep people in jail for life...life is usually reserved for the most heinous criminals. Yet we have a relatively safe country and I never fear going anywhere.
Hundreth time ... not a Christian! Haven't read the Bible!
My faith tells me much but might be off topic so I won't elaborate.
I will say it does not tell me this man should be anywhere
but locked up for the safety of others, for the victim and his loved ones.
maybe you should stick American Idol and not enter a topic on Canadian Justice until you understand how our system works...we try to rehabilitate except those who have committed the most heinous acts and yet we have a pretty safe society...
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
In Canada our justice system does not operate the way the US does ( at least no yet )...and I prefer it that way. I think for the most part the system works well...we have a relatively safe country, no where I'm really afraid to go in this country...now just across the river in Detroit there are probably more places in all of that city that's more dangerous than all of Canada. So I find it kind of amusing when Americans question our justice system when it appears our system of rehabilitation for the most part works well. Do we have violent and dangerous criminals? Yes...most societies probably do. Is our system perfect? No. But I know I Canada is a safer country.
As for Pandora I thought the Bible and Christianity was all about forgiveness and second chances...especially in this case when it's obvious he was extremely mentally ill at the time. He did not know what he was doing, he was an immigrant to this country, which probably made it harder to access the help he needed...now that he's getting help I trust his Doctors will do the right thing for all involved...and he may never get out...and if he does he will likely be heavily supervised for life...as for now he is probably years away from re-entering society.
People need to understand we rarely keep people in jail for life...life is usually reserved for the most heinous criminals. Yet we have a relatively safe country and I never fear going anywhere.
Hundreth time ... not a Christian! Haven't read the Bible!
My faith tells me much but might be off topic so I won't elaborate.
I will say it does not tell me this man should be anywhere
but locked up for the safety of others, for the victim and his loved ones.
Ok i have heard you say this many times i.e. for the victim and his loved ones. do you really think the victim cares NO! does the family care YES but why do they? is it for safety or vengeance?
we believe that Jail is just not about punishment but also about correcting. Hence the name Correctional Services of Canada. no time in jail is going to bring this person back to live. the family is always going to be grieving no matter what.
well said...why is so hard to understand for some people? and yet we have a relatively safe country.[/quote]
with sounding like I am attacking Pandora (which is not my intention), i do think that we as Canadians have a different view point of things than Americans. I think many of us understand that putting someone in jail to rot is not doing anything to deter crime and in fact may increase crime.
every time I think of jails i flash back to the movie Shawshank Redemption and the character who after being released from jail kills himself when released caused he didn't know how to be free anymore. thats for me is inhumane and torture.
In Canada our justice system does not operate the way the US does ( at least no yet )...and I prefer it that way. I think for the most part the system works well...we have a relatively safe country, no where I'm really afraid to go in this country...now just across the river in Detroit there are probably more places in all of that city that's more dangerous than all of Canada. So I find it kind of amusing when Americans question our justice system when it appears our system of rehabilitation for the most part works well. Do we have violent and dangerous criminals? Yes...most societies probably do. Is our system perfect? No. But I know I Canada is a safer country.
As for Pandora I thought the Bible and Christianity was all about forgiveness and second chances...especially in this case when it's obvious he was extremely mentally ill at the time. He did not know what he was doing, he was an immigrant to this country, which probably made it harder to access the help he needed...now that he's getting help I trust his Doctors will do the right thing for all involved...and he may never get out...and if he does he will likely be heavily supervised for life...as for now he is probably years away from re-entering society.
People need to understand we rarely keep people in jail for life...life is usually reserved for the most heinous criminals. Yet we have a relatively safe country and I never fear going anywhere.
Hundreth time ... not a Christian! Haven't read the Bible!
My faith tells me much but might be off topic so I won't elaborate.
I will say it does not tell me this man should be anywhere
but locked up for the safety of others, for the victim and his loved ones.
Ok i have heard you say this many times i.e. for the victim and his loved ones. do you really think the victim cares NO! does the family care YES but why do they? is it for safety or vengeance?
we believe that Jail is just not about punishment but also about correcting. Hence the name Correctional Services of Canada. no time in jail is going to bring this person back to live. the family is always going to be grieving no matter what.
For those that cannot accept a position without 'support' I enter the following into evidence for my assertion that, given the 'extreme' behaviours Li displayed, society would be best served restricting Li to a roof, a blanket, and a toilet:
These are just a couple of very recent examples (this month as a matter of fact) of 'walk offs' in our country suggesting that, at the very least, there is some level of risk attached to exercising a degree of care towards psychiatric patients.
The moderate to soft liners suggest to people that, despite the risks, these efforts towards the rehabilitation of Li are our collective responsibility. The people that have advocated for Li should have the stance that they are in favour of our best rehabilitative efforts in the hopes we can advance Li to the point where he can re-enter society (at some level). If they do not have this position, then they are not truly in line with their beliefs.
To the contrary, the hard liners (who seem to be in the minority on this thread and obviously include me) feel that even in the event that our psychiatric experts (they are not always right with their 'less-than-exact' science) felt we could release Li, unsupervised, into the community... we shouldn't. And, if it is not a realistic option for the future... then why are we going through the motions?
If a person is worth the efforts... I'm all for it. A schizophrenia who does something crazed, but not too crazed, has my support. A schizophrenia who carves up a dude on a bus and terrorizes all the other passengers waving body parts at them (after chewing on them for a while) while trying to get off it doesn't. Sorry. I mean... how does that get rehabilitated?
maybe you should stick American Idol and not enter a topic on Canadian Justice until you understand how our system works...we try to rehabilitate except those who have committed the most heinous acts and yet we have a pretty safe society...
I've seen Strange Brew. I know how you guys operate up there.
In Canada our justice system does not operate the way the US does ( at least no yet )...and I prefer it that way. I think for the most part the system works well...we have a relatively safe country, no where I'm really afraid to go in this country...now just across the river in Detroit there are probably more places in all of that city that's more dangerous than all of Canada. So I find it kind of amusing when Americans question our justice system when it appears our system of rehabilitation for the most part works well. Do we have violent and dangerous criminals? Yes...most societies probably do. Is our system perfect? No. But I know I Canada is a safer country.
As for Pandora I thought the Bible and Christianity was all about forgiveness and second chances...especially in this case when it's obvious he was extremely mentally ill at the time. He did not know what he was doing, he was an immigrant to this country, which probably made it harder to access the help he needed...now that he's getting help I trust his Doctors will do the right thing for all involved...and he may never get out...and if he does he will likely be heavily supervised for life...as for now he is probably years away from re-entering society.
People need to understand we rarely keep people in jail for life...life is usually reserved for the most heinous criminals. Yet we have a relatively safe country and I never fear going anywhere.
Hundreth time ... not a Christian! Haven't read the Bible!
My faith tells me much but might be off topic so I won't elaborate.
I will say it does not tell me this man should be anywhere
but locked up for the safety of others, for the victim and his loved ones.
Ok i have heard you say this many times i.e. for the victim and his loved ones. do you really think the victim cares NO! does the family care YES but why do they? is it for safety or vengeance?
we believe that Jail is just not about punishment but also about correcting. Hence the name Correctional Services of Canada. no time in jail is going to bring this person back to live. the family is always going to be grieving no matter what.
For those that cannot accept a position without 'support' I enter the following into evidence for my assertion that, given the 'extreme' behaviours Li displayed, society would be best served restricting Li to a roof, a blanket, and a toilet:
These are just a couple of very recent examples (this month as a matter of fact) of 'walk offs' in our country suggesting that, at the very least, there is some level of risk attached to exercising a degree of care towards psychiatric patients.
The moderate to soft liners suggest to people that, despite the risks, these efforts towards the rehabilitation of Li are our collective responsibility. The people that have advocated for Li should have the stance that they are in favour of our best rehabilitative efforts in the hopes we can advance Li to the point where he can re-enter society (at some level). If they do not have this position, then they are not truly in line with their beliefs.
To the contrary, the hard liners (who seem to be in the minority on this thread and obviously include me) feel that even in the event that our psychiatric experts (they are not always right with their 'less-than-exact' science) felt we could release Li, unsupervised, into the community... we shouldn't. And, if it is not a realistic option for the future... then why are we going through the motions?
If a person is worth the efforts... I'm all for it. A schizophrenia who does something crazed, but not too crazed, has my support. A schizophrenia who carves up a dude on a bus and terrorizes all the other passengers waving body parts at them (after chewing on them for a while) while trying to get off it doesn't. Sorry. I mean... how does that get rehabilitated?[/quote]
to begin, not the same situation and Li would not be released UN-supervised. I can also give you stories of people escaping from Jails also so what does that mean? I can also give you stories of people being killed in jails.
AGAIN it should be mentioned that Li is not being released on his own but under supervision. I deal with rapist, pedophiles, ex-cons everyday in my work and I can tell you that most come out and try to live the right way.
In Canada our justice system does not operate the way the US does ( at least no yet )...and I prefer it that way. I think for the most part the system works well...we have a relatively safe country, no where I'm really afraid to go in this country...now just across the river in Detroit there are probably more places in all of that city that's more dangerous than all of Canada. So I find it kind of amusing when Americans question our justice system when it appears our system of rehabilitation for the most part works well. Do we have violent and dangerous criminals? Yes...most societies probably do. Is our system perfect? No. But I know I Canada is a safer country.
As for Pandora I thought the Bible and Christianity was all about forgiveness and second chances...especially in this case when it's obvious he was extremely mentally ill at the time. He did not know what he was doing, he was an immigrant to this country, which probably made it harder to access the help he needed...now that he's getting help I trust his Doctors will do the right thing for all involved...and he may never get out...and if he does he will likely be heavily supervised for life...as for now he is probably years away from re-entering society.
People need to understand we rarely keep people in jail for life...life is usually reserved for the most heinous criminals. Yet we have a relatively safe country and I never fear going anywhere.
what did that hog farmer out in B.C. get for torturing & slowly killing several prostitutes and feeding them to the hogs? just curious as i haven't heard what finally was his handed down prison sentence
maybe you should stick American Idol and not enter a topic on Canadian Justice until you understand how our system works...we try to rehabilitate except those who have committed the most heinous acts and yet we have a pretty safe society...
I've seen Strange Brew. I know how you guys operate up there.
In Canada our justice system does not operate the way the US does ( at least no yet )...and I prefer it that way. I think for the most part the system works well...we have a relatively safe country, no where I'm really afraid to go in this country...now just across the river in Detroit there are probably more places in all of that city that's more dangerous than all of Canada. So I find it kind of amusing when Americans question our justice system when it appears our system of rehabilitation for the most part works well. Do we have violent and dangerous criminals? Yes...most societies probably do. Is our system perfect? No. But I know I Canada is a safer country.
As for Pandora I thought the Bible and Christianity was all about forgiveness and second chances...especially in this case when it's obvious he was extremely mentally ill at the time. He did not know what he was doing, he was an immigrant to this country, which probably made it harder to access the help he needed...now that he's getting help I trust his Doctors will do the right thing for all involved...and he may never get out...and if he does he will likely be heavily supervised for life...as for now he is probably years away from re-entering society.
People need to understand we rarely keep people in jail for life...life is usually reserved for the most heinous criminals. Yet we have a relatively safe country and I never fear going anywhere.
what did that hog farmer out in B.C. get for torturing & slowly killing several prostitutes and feeding them to the hogs? just curious as i haven't heard what finally was his handed down prison sentence
what did that hog farmer out in B.C. get for torturing & slowly killing several prostitutes and feeding them to the hogs? just curious as i haven't heard what finally was his handed down prison sentence
pickton got life with no chance of parole for 25 years ... his first degree murder charges didn't stick so he only got 2nd degree ... and that is the max sentence ... not sure on the details ...
paul bernardo ... another famous killer got life with no chance for parole ...
what did that hog farmer out in B.C. get for torturing & slowly killing several prostitutes and feeding them to the hogs? just curious as i haven't heard what finally was his handed down prison sentence
pickton got life with no chance of parole for 25 years ... his first degree murder charges didn't stick so he only got 2nd degree ... and that is the max sentence ... not sure on the details ...
paul bernardo ... another famous killer got life with no chance for parole ...
what did that hog farmer out in B.C. get for torturing & slowly killing several prostitutes and feeding them to the hogs? just curious as i haven't heard what finally was his handed down prison sentence
pickton got life with no chance of parole for 25 years ... his first degree murder charges didn't stick so he only got 2nd degree ... and that is the max sentence ... not sure on the details ...
paul bernardo ... another famous killer got life with no chance for parole ...
why 2nd degree murder and not 1st? is it even known exactly how many women (possibly men too) pickton tortured & murdered. pigs eat every single thing. bones. chomped up. perhaps a few teeth & jaw bones remained in the filthy hog confinement.
what is the difference between pickton and vince li?
is pickton a mentally insane indivudual who suffers from schizophrenia and or is he just completely evil unlike vince li who has been labeled mentally ill and even dangerous
what did that hog farmer out in B.C. get for torturing & slowly killing several prostitutes and feeding them to the hogs? just curious as i haven't heard what finally was his handed down prison sentence
pickton got life with no chance of parole for 25 years ... his first degree murder charges didn't stick so he only got 2nd degree ... and that is the max sentence ... not sure on the details ...
paul bernardo ... another famous killer got life with no chance for parole ...
what did that hog farmer out in B.C. get for torturing & slowly killing several prostitutes and feeding them to the hogs? just curious as i haven't heard what finally was his handed down prison sentence
pickton got life with no chance of parole for 25 years ... his first degree murder charges didn't stick so he only got 2nd degree ... and that is the max sentence ... not sure on the details ...
paul bernardo ... another famous killer got life with no chance for parole ...
btw, never heard of this paul bernardo character. is he a dandy of a gentleman as well?
Comments
Opinions....aren't they just great?
your point is moot since you called him a criminal. he is not. the defense AND the prosecution agree on this.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I have read several of yours Byrnzie. And, if you are going to quote me... quote me in the proper context. There was a little more to what I said than the cut and paste job you've presented.
Are you suggesting my opinion bears no merit? Or are you just taking a snide shot at me?
that's like comparing someone with cancer to that of someone who's 400 pounds because they eat at McDonald's every day.
1) Vince Li is making no excuses. He actually just released an interview and he was quoted as saying that he thinks it would have been justified for the RCMP to shoot and kill him on the bus. He believes he does not deserve freedom, that he does not deserve to be alive.
2) he is NOT a criminal. he was found NOT CRIMINALLY RESPONSIBLE BY JOINT RECOMMENDATION BY THE CROWN AND THE DEFENSE.
3) the justice system does not, NOR SHOULD IT, govern its decisions of parole or not based on the feelings of those left to mourn. just put the family on the fucking jury if you want to go down that road.
4) Vince Li is also a victim.
5) one of his doctors said he'd be more than confident to have him over to his house to be with his family. does that sound like a guy who is afraid Li will reoffend?
6) he is NOT getting released? you people are talking like he's headed to Disney for vacation. Yes, this is the first step towards EVENTUAL freedom. this guy ain't no fucking ninja. he's not going to wait for this spot and take down his nurse and armed guard and then flee into downtown Selkirk and bite someone's nose off.
people need to really understand that there is complete difference between mental illness and being a fucking scumbag. there are drugs to help the mentally ill. if there were drugs for being an homicidal asshole, our prisons would be empty.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Don't be stupified, Hugh. And yes, we get it- you feel sorry for Li (you referred to him as a victim in your rant). While defending Li, you fail to even once pay a small token of reverence for Tim McLean. Guys like me talk for him. Whether right or wrong... we are polarized on issues such as this: you lean much more to criminal's rights than I ever could.
Tim McLean was a victim of a crime. Li perpetrated it. It's not that hard to get your head around is it? Let the legal beagles wrangle with terminology as they navigate their way through their trial. Let other people call a spade a spade. The formalities of the courts need not apply here and if they do... count me out.
I didn't quote you. I quoted 'keeponrockin'.
what you fail to understand is that I don't lean to criminal's rights, I lean to human rights. I actually believe we should be tougher on crime, especially violent ones.
I'LL SAY THIS ONE MORE TIME SO YOU CAN GET IT: VINCE LI IS NOT A CONVICTED CRIMINAL. HE IS ILL.
I mentioned Tim Mclean in my first few posts in this thread, along with my near nervous breakdown 4 years ago when this happened, feeling for Tim Mclean and his family, hearing the horrifying details of what went on not 20 miles from my house, but I won't get wrangled away from the issue of the thread, and that is should or should not Vince Li be given some basic human rights as he improves his mental condition.
put yourself on a pedestal if you must with your "guys like me speak for the victim"-what a joke. sometimes people need to take the unpopular task of speaking for all victims, not just the obvious ones.
make no mistake. Tim Mclean is a victim, along with all who knew and loved him. Vince Li is a victim. Along with all that know and love him.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Holy crap, man. I get your bolded emphasis. It's not too complex a point- it's just one I'm not going to buy into. You commit a crime... you are a criminal: drunk, high, angry, ill, whatever. Dismiss Li's heinous act any way you want (even if your dismissal is so because the lawyers and judges said), but I'm not prepared to do so.
You talk about jumping up on pedestals, yet you've perched yourself on the highest one with your claims of nervous breakdowns over your angst, how humanitarian you are, and how you've assumed the noble and difficult position to take while losers like me are just morons (I stupified you earlier!)... while at the same time mocking my position that happens to be contrary to yours. And you talk about jokes? Jeez, man. Seriously.
I'm not, nor never will agree with you on this one. What I can say is that you are entitled to your position... so enjoy it.
For one, I think the sentence in the voyeur case was too much, but here I side with those who don't think he should be taking visits outside of the place where he is held.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
thank you, hugh
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
though the violence was not at this level of course.
In some cases not directed at others.
We know there is no cure only control with meds.
The nature of the disease lends to patients not wanting to take their meds due to
paranoia and breeches with reality,
so a continual controlled environment is often required depending on severity.
I have also seen relapses while on meds requiring reevaluation and return
to hospitalization. Because this is possible and perhaps likely in this case,
and because of the level of past violence towards humanity, this man should stay locked
up with no chance of freedom.
I feel.... a better safe than sorry is in order with the lives of others at stake.
I find myself agreeing with you on almost everything. No different here.
As for Pandora I thought the Bible and Christianity was all about forgiveness and second chances...especially in this case when it's obvious he was extremely mentally ill at the time. He did not know what he was doing, he was an immigrant to this country, which probably made it harder to access the help he needed...now that he's getting help I trust his Doctors will do the right thing for all involved...and he may never get out...and if he does he will likely be heavily supervised for life...as for now he is probably years away from re-entering society.
People need to understand we rarely keep people in jail for life...life is usually reserved for the most heinous criminals. Yet we have a relatively safe country and I never fear going anywhere.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
My faith tells me much but might be off topic so I won't elaborate.
I will say it does not tell me this man should be anywhere
but locked up for the safety of others, for the victim and his loved ones.
Ok i have heard you say this many times i.e. for the victim and his loved ones. do you really think the victim cares NO! does the family care YES but why do they? is it for safety or vengeance?
we believe that Jail is just not about punishment but also about correcting. Hence the name Correctional Services of Canada. no time in jail is going to bring this person back to live. the family is always going to be grieving no matter what.
well said...why is so hard to understand for some people? and yet we have a relatively safe country.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
maybe you should stick American Idol and not enter a topic on Canadian Justice until you understand how our system works...we try to rehabilitate except those who have committed the most heinous acts and yet we have a pretty safe society...
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
well said...why is so hard to understand for some people? and yet we have a relatively safe country.[/quote]
with sounding like I am attacking Pandora (which is not my intention), i do think that we as Canadians have a different view point of things than Americans. I think many of us understand that putting someone in jail to rot is not doing anything to deter crime and in fact may increase crime.
every time I think of jails i flash back to the movie Shawshank Redemption and the character who after being released from jail kills himself when released caused he didn't know how to be free anymore. thats for me is inhumane and torture.
For those that cannot accept a position without 'support' I enter the following into evidence for my assertion that, given the 'extreme' behaviours Li displayed, society would be best served restricting Li to a roof, a blanket, and a toilet:
http://www.albertapolicereport.com/2012 ... h-windows/
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/05/25/se ... psych-ward
These are just a couple of very recent examples (this month as a matter of fact) of 'walk offs' in our country suggesting that, at the very least, there is some level of risk attached to exercising a degree of care towards psychiatric patients.
The moderate to soft liners suggest to people that, despite the risks, these efforts towards the rehabilitation of Li are our collective responsibility. The people that have advocated for Li should have the stance that they are in favour of our best rehabilitative efforts in the hopes we can advance Li to the point where he can re-enter society (at some level). If they do not have this position, then they are not truly in line with their beliefs.
To the contrary, the hard liners (who seem to be in the minority on this thread and obviously include me) feel that even in the event that our psychiatric experts (they are not always right with their 'less-than-exact' science) felt we could release Li, unsupervised, into the community... we shouldn't. And, if it is not a realistic option for the future... then why are we going through the motions?
If a person is worth the efforts... I'm all for it. A schizophrenia who does something crazed, but not too crazed, has my support. A schizophrenia who carves up a dude on a bus and terrorizes all the other passengers waving body parts at them (after chewing on them for a while) while trying to get off it doesn't. Sorry. I mean... how does that get rehabilitated?
For those that cannot accept a position without 'support' I enter the following into evidence for my assertion that, given the 'extreme' behaviours Li displayed, society would be best served restricting Li to a roof, a blanket, and a toilet:
http://www.albertapolicereport.com/2012 ... h-windows/
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/05/25/se ... psych-ward
These are just a couple of very recent examples (this month as a matter of fact) of 'walk offs' in our country suggesting that, at the very least, there is some level of risk attached to exercising a degree of care towards psychiatric patients.
The moderate to soft liners suggest to people that, despite the risks, these efforts towards the rehabilitation of Li are our collective responsibility. The people that have advocated for Li should have the stance that they are in favour of our best rehabilitative efforts in the hopes we can advance Li to the point where he can re-enter society (at some level). If they do not have this position, then they are not truly in line with their beliefs.
To the contrary, the hard liners (who seem to be in the minority on this thread and obviously include me) feel that even in the event that our psychiatric experts (they are not always right with their 'less-than-exact' science) felt we could release Li, unsupervised, into the community... we shouldn't. And, if it is not a realistic option for the future... then why are we going through the motions?
If a person is worth the efforts... I'm all for it. A schizophrenia who does something crazed, but not too crazed, has my support. A schizophrenia who carves up a dude on a bus and terrorizes all the other passengers waving body parts at them (after chewing on them for a while) while trying to get off it doesn't. Sorry. I mean... how does that get rehabilitated?[/quote]
to begin, not the same situation and Li would not be released UN-supervised. I can also give you stories of people escaping from Jails also so what does that mean? I can also give you stories of people being killed in jails.
AGAIN it should be mentioned that Li is not being released on his own but under supervision. I deal with rapist, pedophiles, ex-cons everyday in my work and I can tell you that most come out and try to live the right way.
what did that hog farmer out in B.C. get for torturing & slowly killing several prostitutes and feeding them to the hogs? just curious as i haven't heard what finally was his handed down prison sentence
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
he got life with no parole
pickton got life with no chance of parole for 25 years ... his first degree murder charges didn't stick so he only got 2nd degree ... and that is the max sentence ... not sure on the details ...
paul bernardo ... another famous killer got life with no chance for parole ...
here is some of the details.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Pickton
what is the difference between pickton and vince li?
is pickton a mentally insane indivudual who suffers from schizophrenia and or is he just completely evil unlike vince li who has been labeled mentally ill and even dangerous
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce