Yeah I know it's a different country and that but...........How many people did Charles Manson actually kill? And he is still in prison. Telling me and others on this board that Li being put back into society is a good thing is a tad far fetched.
And do you know how many days he was off his pills the time he killed that young lad? Neither do I! Could have been one whole day and he started hearing voices. Just saying!
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
Yeah I know it's a different country and that but...........How many people did Charles Manson actually kill? And he is still in prison. Telling me and others on this board that Li being put back into society is a good thing is a tad far fetched.
And do you know how many days he was off his pills the time he killed that young lad? Neither do I! Could have been one whole day and he started hearing voices. Just saying!
In Canada, Manson would have been out long ago.
Firstly, he never actually got his hands dirty... so a reasonably competent lawyer and our most stern judge would have been very lenient with their initial sentencing.
Secondly, his background would have had people clutching their hands at their chests and feeling sorry for him- he was institutionalized early and often.
Third, he was in a drugged out stupor- incapable of knowing exactly what he was doing.
Fourth, he would have a team of eager professionals advocating his release to legitimize their publically funded services.
Yeah I know it's a different country and that but...........How many people did Charles Manson actually kill? And he is still in prison. Telling me and others on this board that Li being put back into society is a good thing is a tad far fetched.
And do you know how many days he was off his pills the time he killed that young lad? Neither do I! Could have been one whole day and he started hearing voices. Just saying!
Yeah I know it's a different country and that but...........How many people did Charles Manson actually kill? And he is still in prison. Telling me and others on this board that Li being put back into society is a good thing is a tad far fetched.
And do you know how many days he was off his pills the time he killed that young lad? Neither do I! Could have been one whole day and he started hearing voices. Just saying!
In Canada, Manson would have been out long ago.
Firstly, he never actually got his hands dirty... so a reasonably competent lawyer and our most stern judge would have been very lenient with their initial sentencing.
Secondly, his background would have had people clutching their hands at their chests and feeling sorry for him- he was institutionalized early and often.
Third, he was in a drugged out stupor- incapable of knowing exactly what he was doing.
Fourth, he would have a team of eager professionals advocating his release to legitimize their publically funded services.
We rock, eh?
So are you suggesting a made in USA approach to criminal justice?
Well, first off, if he all of a sudden decides not to take his meds, what, do you think he automatically just snaps back into cannibal mode like its headache medicine that stops being effective four hours after your last dose. Sure, they are just going to take his word for it that he is taking the meds. Gimme a break.
No one. Not ONE person is saying this is "fantastic". No one is thrilled about it. But it happened. And this is how society is and should be dealing with it. Seriously dude, your melodramatic ridiculousness sounds so foolish.
Your last paragraph is such cliche nonsense. So typical of people who are so highly fearful of rehabilitation.
Well... I'll try to be careful here so that you don't begin to pout and walk away from the site again.
What are you talking about? You are referencing the 'event', while I made reference to his impending release... to which... I'll repeat: some people here- such as yourself- are pleased/ happy/ or content that the courts and professionals have deemed Li fit for reintegration. Your enthusiasm for this decision has not been contained in the event you feel it has.
And I'm not fearful of rehabilitation. I'm simply against it in cases where people are mutilated and eaten.
Call me foolish and melodramatic (with a well-placed 'dude' thrown in for good measure) all you want. I'm not going to call you some 'head-up-his-ass-bleeding-heart-liberal-idiot' for supporting Li's release in retaliation. I'll respectfully let you have your opinion.
"pout and walk away from the site again". and yet your last sentence claims you are above personal attacks.
yes, I tend to believe that melodrama make someone look foolish. that's my opinion.
edit: and thirty, if you are going to try to get under my skin, please try to use a different insult other than the "don't pout and leave..." shit again. you've used that like 14 times already. it's getting old.
Jeez, paul/HFD...I'm not sure where your taking personal shots and a lower road is coming from lately.
To question the parameters of this man's release isn't insane, silly, sensenationalized or unfounded.
It's actually reasonable.
it wasn't a personal attack. I get sick and tired of people making out like mental health issues are so cut and dry. it's irresponsible and all it does is further the stigma of mental illness as a whole.
the old "well then, if you think he should be let out, why don't you let him babysit your kid" IS stupid. it's tired and a just plain lazy argument. I stand by that.
I am also questioning the parameters of his release. I have stated repeatedly that I'm not 100% comfortable with it. he's being released IN MY CITY. I have kids. So yeah, there is a level of concern there. But I also don't believe that someone who WAS sick belongs locked up forever.
I just don't think the usual "lock this crazy fucker up and throw away the key" furthers the discussion.
To me Canada"s Charles Manson equivalence (as far as boogey man) would have to be Clifford Olsen, who, thankfully died in prison. He was never going to get out.
Yeah I know it's a different country and that but...........How many people did Charles Manson actually kill? And he is still in prison. Telling me and others on this board that Li being put back into society is a good thing is a tad far fetched.
And do you know how many days he was off his pills the time he killed that young lad? Neither do I! Could have been one whole day and he started hearing voices. Just saying!
In Canada, Manson would have been out long ago.
Firstly, he never actually got his hands dirty... so a reasonably competent lawyer and our most stern judge would have been very lenient with their initial sentencing.
Secondly, his background would have had people clutching their hands at their chests and feeling sorry for him- he was institutionalized early and often.
Third, he was in a drugged out stupor- incapable of knowing exactly what he was doing.
Fourth, he would have a team of eager professionals advocating his release to legitimize their publically funded services.
We rock, eh?
manson would never be let out in Canada. too high profile of a case. and it was in the 60's. he probably would have been tossed in a dungeon and never heard from again. in the states he gets a platform on network tv and news.
if it happened today? I sincerely doubt it. all you are basing your theory on is your extreme bias towards our penal system.
Yeah I know it's a different country and that but...........How many people did Charles Manson actually kill? And he is still in prison. Telling me and others on this board that Li being put back into society is a good thing is a tad far fetched.
And do you know how many days he was off his pills the time he killed that young lad? Neither do I! Could have been one whole day and he started hearing voices. Just saying!
he was never on meds to begin with. he didn't know he was sick. it is a known fact that people with that type of mental disease don't know they have it. the old saying goes "if you think you are crazy, you aren't, as crazy people don't know they are".
again, a very black and white take on the situation. and a common misconception.
I support what's right for all. every situation is different. there are those who belong behind bars forever and those who even I sometimes think the death penalty (which I'm against) would even be appropriate. but not this case. not in my opinion.
Jeez, paul/HFD...I'm not sure where your taking personal shots and a lower road is coming from lately.
To question the parameters of this man's release isn't insane, silly, sensenationalized or unfounded.
It's actually reasonable.
it wasn't a personal attack. I get sick and tired of people making out like mental health issues are so cut and dry. it's irresponsible and all it does is further the stigma of mental illness as a whole.
the old "well then, if you think he should be let out, why don't you let him babysit your kid" IS stupid. it's tired and a just plain lazy argument. I stand by that.
I am also questioning the parameters of his release. I have stated repeatedly that I'm not 100% comfortable with it. he's being released IN MY CITY. I have kids. So yeah, there is a level of concern there. But I also don't believe that someone who WAS sick belongs locked up forever.
I just don't think the usual "lock this crazy fucker up and throw away the key" furthers the discussion.
It was a little more personal than what you seem prepared to admit.
Regardless, we've done this dance already. I retain the same outlook as before as do you. There's no need to pit ourselves as adversaries here when we healthily agree on other issues.
I haven't read through all of the thread but just had a thought I would share.
Some people have bad luck. Some are born with cancer and die as children. Some people get hit by a drunk driver and killed. Some people get ALS and spend years living in a body that won't work. Some people get a mental illness and unfortunately in extreme cases they injury or kill people.
Just like an ALS patient is unlucky and forced to live in a deteriorating body with no or very little quality of life, an individual is equally unlucky to have a mental disorder that to protect the general public forces them to live in a 24 hour monitored facility.
We can't right every wrong unfortunately.
Anyway, again, I did not read every post or article but just throwing in my 2 cents in general. If there is 100% certainty this guy won't kill again and it can be guaranteed, maybe the outcome is a little different.
1) the perception that Li is being let off scott free for a horrific crime, or 2) the concern for public safety, or 3) a bit of both
Admittedly, as I have said countless times, this crime rocked me in ways I care not discuss, but taking emotion of the event out of it, what do you do with someone who was found completely bonkers at the time of the crime, and now understands what happened and what he needs to do to prevent that again moving forward? Clearly, our justice system is set up to punish those with intent to commit the crime, which he had none. His brain turned on him, the same way other organs in our body do on a daily basis. He now knows how to control it. And despite what you may think, he will be heavily monitored for the rest of his life.
Do you keep him locked up for all eternity to placate the fearful/vengeful? If he is deemed no longer a danger to society, and by law he committed no crime,mthen he must ge released.
Keep in mind. This not our weak, "bleeding heart" parole system at play here. This is a team of mental health experts that have watched this man 24/7 for 7 years. This was not something that was carried out lightly. We aren't dealing with Hannibal Lecter here.
He chopped off a head. Deal with it.
thanks for adding so much to the discussion.
I am merely trying to be as direct to you as this problem is to society and the legal system. All of a sudden this guy after getting arrested gets dropped into some ones hands and is in essence being told "deal with this because I won't/can't"
What do you do with that? Forget the studies, empirical evidence, statistics et al. You chop off a head and eat flesh there is no rehab, there is no medicine, there is no PHD guy that can save you in the court - banished from society for life nothing else. Any judge behind a bench passes judgement on the facts the lawyers present - as well as a touch of their moral conviction. I would hope that any attorney/doctor that is successful in advocating for a monster as such should verily be held accountable should a re-offence occur. We all know this won't happen. This is scary that society can now "cure" head loppers and cannibals with success.
1) the perception that Li is being let off scott free for a horrific crime, or 2) the concern for public safety, or 3) a bit of both
Admittedly, as I have said countless times, this crime rocked me in ways I care not discuss, but taking emotion of the event out of it, what do you do with someone who was found completely bonkers at the time of the crime, and now understands what happened and what he needs to do to prevent that again moving forward? Clearly, our justice system is set up to punish those with intent to commit the crime, which he had none. His brain turned on him, the same way other organs in our body do on a daily basis. He now knows how to control it. And despite what you may think, he will be heavily monitored for the rest of his life.
Do you keep him locked up for all eternity to placate the fearful/vengeful? If he is deemed no longer a danger to society, and by law he committed no crime,mthen he must ge released.
Keep in mind. This not our weak, "bleeding heart" parole system at play here. This is a team of mental health experts that have watched this man 24/7 for 7 years. This was not something that was carried out lightly. We aren't dealing with Hannibal Lecter here.
He chopped off a head. Deal with it.
thanks for adding so much to the discussion.
I am merely trying to be as direct to you as this problem is to society and the legal system. All of a sudden this guy after getting arrested gets dropped into some ones hands and is in essence being told "deal with this because I won't/can't"
What do you do with that? Forget the studies, empirical evidence, statistics et al. You chop off a head and eat flesh there is no rehab, there is no medicine, there is no PHD guy that can save you in the court - banished from society for life nothing else. Any judge behind a bench passes judgement on the facts the lawyers present - as well as a touch of their moral conviction. I would hope that any attorney/doctor that is successful in advocating for a monster as such should verily be held accountable should a re-offence occur. We all know this won't happen. This is scary that society can now "cure" head loppers and cannibals with success.
Shame.
Sorry if this sounds offensive, but it has to be said: you clearly have very little, if any, understanding of this case. Or possibly mental illness as a whole.
1) the perception that Li is being let off scott free for a horrific crime, or 2) the concern for public safety, or 3) a bit of both
Admittedly, as I have said countless times, this crime rocked me in ways I care not discuss, but taking emotion of the event out of it, what do you do with someone who was found completely bonkers at the time of the crime, and now understands what happened and what he needs to do to prevent that again moving forward? Clearly, our justice system is set up to punish those with intent to commit the crime, which he had none. His brain turned on him, the same way other organs in our body do on a daily basis. He now knows how to control it. And despite what you may think, he will be heavily monitored for the rest of his life.
Do you keep him locked up for all eternity to placate the fearful/vengeful? If he is deemed no longer a danger to society, and by law he committed no crime,mthen he must ge released.
Keep in mind. This not our weak, "bleeding heart" parole system at play here. This is a team of mental health experts that have watched this man 24/7 for 7 years. This was not something that was carried out lightly. We aren't dealing with Hannibal Lecter here.
He chopped off a head. Deal with it.
thanks for adding so much to the discussion.
I am merely trying to be as direct to you as this problem is to society and the legal system. All of a sudden this guy after getting arrested gets dropped into some ones hands and is in essence being told "deal with this because I won't/can't"
What do you do with that? Forget the studies, empirical evidence, statistics et al. You chop off a head and eat flesh there is no rehab, there is no medicine, there is no PHD guy that can save you in the court - banished from society for life nothing else. Any judge behind a bench passes judgement on the facts the lawyers present - as well as a touch of their moral conviction. I would hope that any attorney/doctor that is successful in advocating for a monster as such should verily be held accountable should a re-offence occur. We all know this won't happen. This is scary that society can now "cure" head loppers and cannibals with success.
Shame.
Sorry if this sounds offensive, but it has to be said: you clearly have very little, if any, understanding of this case. Or possibly mental illness as a whole.
Not making it personal to you man. I answered your quip directly with a more verbose response. It doesn't sound offensive what you think has to be said. I am offended that society can defend a cannibal eating de-noganizer and give itself a pat on the back for being empathetic.
1) the perception that Li is being let off scott free for a horrific crime, or 2) the concern for public safety, or 3) a bit of both
Admittedly, as I have said countless times, this crime rocked me in ways I care not discuss, but taking emotion of the event out of it, what do you do with someone who was found completely bonkers at the time of the crime, and now understands what happened and what he needs to do to prevent that again moving forward? Clearly, our justice system is set up to punish those with intent to commit the crime, which he had none. His brain turned on him, the same way other organs in our body do on a daily basis. He now knows how to control it. And despite what you may think, he will be heavily monitored for the rest of his life.
Do you keep him locked up for all eternity to placate the fearful/vengeful? If he is deemed no longer a danger to society, and by law he committed no crime,mthen he must ge released.
Keep in mind. This not our weak, "bleeding heart" parole system at play here. This is a team of mental health experts that have watched this man 24/7 for 7 years. This was not something that was carried out lightly. We aren't dealing with Hannibal Lecter here.
He chopped off a head. Deal with it.
thanks for adding so much to the discussion.
I am merely trying to be as direct to you as this problem is to society and the legal system. All of a sudden this guy after getting arrested gets dropped into some ones hands and is in essence being told "deal with this because I won't/can't"
What do you do with that? Forget the studies, empirical evidence, statistics et al. You chop off a head and eat flesh there is no rehab, there is no medicine, there is no PHD guy that can save you in the court - banished from society for life nothing else. Any judge behind a bench passes judgement on the facts the lawyers present - as well as a touch of their moral conviction. I would hope that any attorney/doctor that is successful in advocating for a monster as such should verily be held accountable should a re-offence occur. We all know this won't happen. This is scary that society can now "cure" head loppers and cannibals with success.
Shame.
Sorry if this sounds offensive, but it has to be said: you clearly have very little, if any, understanding of this case. Or possibly mental illness as a whole.
Not making it personal to you man. I answered your quip directly with a more verbose response. It doesn't sound offensive what you think has to be said. I am offended that society can defend a cannibal eating de-noganizer and give itself a pat on the back for being empathetic.
I don't believe in apologizing for empathetic behaviour. If you believe in the mind that can be changed throughout a lifetime, then you believe rehabilitation is a viable option for someone with clear mental illness. Simply put, if demons in your head are what made you act in a horrific way (which clearly medical experts believe to be the case), those demons should not be cause for a life sentence or death penalty (assuming you respond positively to medically-proposed treatment).
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Had to look this one up: Denogginizer (correct spelling): "A big, bold beer hopped with an abundant amount of dank, citrusy American hops. Crystal and Munich malts add color and a subtle caramel malt flavor that helps balance out the immense hop dosings in this monster Imperial IPA."
Not sure what this has to do with the thread topic unless that's what cannibals wash those tasty thumb appetizers down with. I know, you think I'm kidding but I really did read somewhere that cannibals consider thumbs a delicacy
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
I have been debating posting this as I'm sure it will just get slammed. However, I'll choose to remain optimistic that someone reading this may find it interesting and thought-provoking. It's an article with a partial transcript of an interview conducted with Mr. Li conducted a couple of years ago. The article talks about what is, to me, a crucial point - that there are "two victims" in this case. I would actually say there are many victims here, including Mr. McLean's family and the police and paramedics who were present, but Mr. Li has to be counted among the victims.
WINNIPEG —Vince Li says he understands why people are still afraid of him.
He says he remembers what happened on a Greyhound bus bound for Winnipeg during that midsummer’s nightmare in 2008.
But now that he is medicated for his illness, he says the aliens he was afraid of have disappeared, the voices he heard are silent, and he is aware of why it happened on a different level.
Painfully aware.
“I try to forget it . . . I feel nervous. I feel painful. I am embarrassed. It was wrong.” Related
Li spoke those words last weekend when, for the first time in the nearly four years since he made international headlines for the horrifying psychosis-induced beheading of fellow Greyhound passenger Tim McLean, Li granted a full-length interview for release to the media.
The contents of the interview were supplied to the Winnipeg Free Press.
Li also said he feels sorry for what he did and what it has done to McLean’s family.
“I would do anything for their family. I would ask forgiveness, but I know it would be hard to accept.”
The interview was conducted Sunday at the Selkirk Mental Health Centre by Chris Summerville, CEO of the Schizophrenia Society of Canada, who said he has spoken with Li once every two months, on average, since Li’s confinement began nearly four years ago. Li will remain in Selkirk until a review board judges him fit to be released. He was granted temporary passes last week by a review board to take supervised walks in Selkirk.
The interview was held in the foyer of Selkirk’s forensics unit. Summerville and Li separately had to go through two sets of locked doors to meet in the foyer.
With Li’s written permission, Summerville released the “formal” portion of the 45-minute interview because, the Winnipeg-based mental-health executive said, he feels “Mr. Li’s story needs to be told.”
“What we have here,” Summerville added in an email that accompanied the interview, “are two victims and two families who are victims of untreated, uncontrolled psychosis.”
Summerville further explained why he had decided Li’s story should be part of the broader conversation on the not-criminally-responsible debate being driven, in part, by McLean’s mother, Carol de Delley, who is championing the so-called Tim’s Law, which would keep people judged not criminally responsible for a homicide confined for life.
“There are no easy answers to the many-faceted questions that bombard both families and the media,” Summerville said.
“However, I think the media have been more favourable to the McLean family, probably because public sentiment is on their side and we as a country have entered a period of ‘tough on crime,’ with little attention paid to restorative justice, rehabilitation, recovery and redemption, or the influence and role of mental illness in this particular most unfortunate incident.”
Summerville also added this: “Before I do any interview regarding the Greyhound bus tragedy, I always ask myself, ‘What if it had been my 25-year-old daughter?’
“My sympathy to Ms. de Delley and her family is real. And yet, I also ask, ‘What if it had been my son who had killed Tim McLean in such a ghastly and grotesque fashion?’ I hope that such self-questioning softens my response to the many questions I have been asked about my personal and professional knowledge of Mr. Li.”
Summerville brought Li a Chinese meal, which they shared prior to the formal portion of the interview.
“Mr. Li was soft-spoken, using simple English as English is not his first language,” Summerville said. “His answers were rather direct and succinct, revealing a person who has given much contemplation to this tragedy and his guilt.” (part one)
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
This is the interview conducted, edited and supplied by Summerville:
Q. Tell me about your background.
A. I am a 44 years old and grew up in northeastern China in the province of Liaoning.
My mother and father are still living. I have an older brother who is a businessman and a younger sister who is a secretary. They know about the Greyhound bus situation, but my mother and father do not.
My wife and I immigrated to Winnipeg, Canada, in June 2001. I had studied as a computer engineer for four years in China. But I could not find a job in Canada. I worked at McDonald’s, Meatland Foods and at Grant Memorial Baptist Church.
Q. Do you have a spirituality?
A. I believe in Jesus Christ. He is my saviour. I try to follow God.
Q. When did you begin to experience schizophrenia?
A. In 2004. I didn’t know what it was. I now know what it is. I began to hear voices that normal people do not hear. I thought I heard the voice of God telling me to write down my journey. The voice told me that I was the third story of the Bible. That I was like the second coming of Jesus. I was to save people from a space-alien attack. That is why I travelled around the country. I am not sure of all the places I went to. I now know that it was schizophrenia I was suffering from.
Q. Why did you do what you did on the bus?
A. I bought a knife at Canadian Tire. I bought it for any emergency for the journey to protect myself from the aliens. I was really scared. . . . I believed he was an alien. The voices told me to kill him. That he would kill me or others. I do not believe this now. It was totally wrong. It was my fault. I sinned. But it was the schizophrenia.
Q. What else do you remember about the incident?
A. I try to forget it. I try to stay busy here. It is painful to think about.
Q. How do you feel about what happened?
A. I feel nervous. I feel painful. I am embarrassed. It was wrong.
Q. Do you understand why people are scared of you?
A. Yes. I don’t think I will ever do it again. I didn’t know at that time I had schizophrenia. Now I do.
Q. What would you say to Ms. de Delley and Tim McLean’s family?
A. I am really sorry for what I did. If I could talk to her directly, I would do anything for their family. I would ask forgiveness, but I know it would be hard to accept.
Q. How has the time been at the Selkirk Mental Health Centre?
A. I know that I suffer from schizophrenia. The treatment team gives me a chance to recover, to be normal. I am glad to be taking the medication.
Q. Do you think you are getting better?
A. Yes. My thinking is becoming normal. I don’t think weird things. I take my medication, Olanzapine, every day. I am glad to take it. I don’t have any weird voices anymore.
Q. How do we know you will take your medication when you get out on your own?
A. I would be glad to be under a treatment order, because medication helps me. It is very important. I don’t want to do what I did ever again.
Q. How does it make you feel that most people do not think you should get a pass to walk around in Selkirk? Do you understand their fear?
A. I understand people are scared because of my behaviour on the Greyhound bus. I am not at risk for anybody. I don’t believe in aliens. I don’t hear voices. I would call my doctor if I heard voices again. Yes, I understand their fear.
Q. Some say the RCMP should have killed you that night.
A. I should have been killed at that time. I still believe that. But I am thankful that the RCMP didn’t.
Q. What is schizophrenia? What are you learning?
A. It is hearing voices or having delusions. You don’t know what is real. I need to take medication on time. I also have to have meaningful activity, something to do. I have to learn how to handle stress.
Q. What helps you deal with stress?
A. Taking my medication. Exercising and doing Bible study with the chaplain here.
Q. Do you have side-effects from the medication?
A. Yes. I sleep too much. I feel tired a lot and I have gained some weight.
Q. Do you believe you should be under a treatment order?
A. I should be here. I should be under a treatment order.
Q. If you ever got out of the Selkirk Mental Health Centre, what would you do?
A. I hope to leave one day, but I have to make sure it wouldn’t happen again. That there would be no voices. I would change my name to be anonymous. But I would still be in touch with my doctor.
Q. What do you think of Tim’s Law, that any mentally insane person who kills someone would never be released?
A. I don’t think so, that that should happen. Mental illness is an illness. It is treatable. My schizophrenia is not the real me, but it is an illness.
Q. How would you know you were getting sick again?
A. Hearing voices, stopping my medication and starting to believe in aliens. God would not tell me to do something bad.
Q. How do you feel about what you are reading in the newspapers?
A. I don’t read the papers because I don’t want to be reminded of what happened on the Greyhound bus because it was so bad and wrong.
Q. Are you happy?
A. No.
Q. Will you ever be happy?
A. No. I can never forget the Greyhound bus.
Q. Any final words?
A. I would like to say to Tim McLean’s mother “I am sorry for killing your son. I am sorry for the pain I have caused. I wished I could reduce that pain.”
Summerville added this as a postscript:
As we ended the interview, I could see the moisture in Mr. Li’s eyes. It is remarkable the insight Mr. Li has. It is even more remarkable the positive effects of the medication. Up to 25 per cent of people who will have a psychotic break with reality will never experience another psychotic episode. Up to 65 per cent will experience a degree of recovery in order to live a meaningful life. Ten per cent will take their life by suicide due to the losses associated with schizophrenia.
Of the 300,000 people in Canada who live with some form of schizophrenia, the vast majority lead quiet, law-abiding lives hoping for some quality of life. People living with schizophrenia are more likely to be victims of violence rather than being perpetrators of violence. Schizophrenia is treatable. Recovery is possible.
Who is Chris Summerville?
CEO, Schizophrenia Society of Canada executive director, Manitoba Schizophrenia Society certified psychosocial rehabilitation practitioner ordained pastor with the Associated Gospel Churches of Canadanon-government director, Mental Health Commission of Canada past chairman, Manitoba Provincial Advisory Council on Mental Health to the Minister of Health past chairman, Alliance on Mental Illness and Mental Health in Manitoba doctorate in theology, Dallas Theological Seminary has served as a pastor, chaplain, teacher, administrator and mental-health service provider in Canada and the U.S.
I, Vince Li, under no duress or coercion, do give unconditional permission for Chris Summerville to share my story and to use any information I have given him in an interview conducted May 19, 2012, at Selkirk Mental Health Centre. I understand that this interview or parts of it about me may be published in the printed press or used in radio and television media.
—statement from Vince Li provided by Chris Summerville
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
Up to 25% of people who have a psychotic break from reality will never experience another one.
Up to 65% will experience a degree of recovery in order to live a meaningful life.
Li says if he does have a break from an episode, he will call his doctor.
Those two statistics plus Li's promise are enough to satisfy some, but sorry... not me.
* Should I submit a piece that details the crime itself and the subsequent trauma the family has endured? They speak to the real victim.
** Alcoholism is a disease too. When habitual drunks kill people, we don't take great lengths to describe their pasts which led them to seek refuge in liquor. We focus on the crime that was committed. The drunk typically- in a sober state- is apologetic and also capable of being rehabilitated with medical assistance. What is the difference?
The difference is that the person drinking and driving made a concious choice to get behind the wheel, while Li did not have the capacity to make his own choice. While alcohol impairs judgment, it doesnt eradicate it.
We all know the details of the incident and the trauma endured by those affected. If we make decisions about someones freedom based on how it makes others feel, we have gone backwards as a society and once again become a vengeful state. I would like to think we are more evolved than that.
The difference is that the person drinking and driving made a concious choice to get behind the wheel, while Li did not have the capacity to make his own choice. While alcohol impairs judgment, it doesnt eradicate it.
They are very similar. Both speak to diminished capacities.
Li couldn't control his impulses given his illness and mutilated MacLean because he thought he was an alien.
Some drunks are not capable of making a sound decision to refrain from getting behind the wheel (killing people accidentally in the process)- they are impaired. The 'conscious' choice is hardly that.
If one can argue that there is at least some potential for the drunk person to somehow make a safe decision at some point in their consumption timeline, then someone could make the same argument that a mentally ill person such as Li seek help when they start hearing voices.
In Li's case, he started hearing voices that eventually escalated to ones telling him to chop MacLean's head off, stuff some parts of him in his pockets, and eat him too. To that, he wasn't simply defending himself from a perceived threat- he was savagely attacking his imagined adversary with extreme violence and unfathomable gore. Hardly a simple self defense.
If we cannot see the similarities between these two scenarios, then we are either discounting one disease or lending much more support to the other. They both can contribute to poor behavior. They both can be treated. Yet we seem willing to pardon one and not the other.
Why would we be so willing and eager to rehabilitate and forgive Li after doing what he did... yet reluctant to do the same for, say, the lifetime victim of abuse that kills someone at a crosswalk while highly impaired escaping from their pain?
I appreciate the road you are taking here, but I just personally dont believe the two diseases (and the person's ability to control their respective tendencies or impulses) are comparable. It really is that simple.
This type of psychosis is incredibly rare. Alcoholism is rampant. Most, if not all, courts agree that diminished capacity due to drunkeness, whether due to a one time binge or a disease, is not a viable legal excuse, and I tend to agree with that.
I appreciate the road you are taking here, but I just personally dont believe the two diseases (and the person's ability to control their respective tendencies or impulses) are comparable. It really is that simple.
This type of psychosis is incredibly rare. Alcoholism is rampant. Most, if not all, courts agree that diminished capacity due to drunkeness, whether due to a one time binge or a disease, is not a viable legal excuse, and I tend to agree with that.
I know we disagree here, but I do think they can be compared.
In both cases, you have people who's actions can be attributed to their affliction. While one might be extremely rare in comparison, that doesn't make it more legitimate- especially for the individual struggling with alcohol that makes a fatal decision under the influence.
And I don't hold much respect for our courts (as you know). I mean, why should I? In our city, we very recently had a guy with multiple driving offences and a suspended license kill a woman at a crosswalk trying to get to a casino. Initially, a judge really threw the book at him and sentenced him to 6 months in jail.
Seen as absurdly unjust, an appeal saw another idiot judge overturn that sentence and reduced the sentence to 6 months house arrest (critical of the first sentence as well). Hahahaha. He got grounded! Why? His aboriginal background needed to be taken into account. Why not just give him nothing- make him say sorry or something? A colossal joke... and hardly 'unique'.
I appreciate the road you are taking here, but I just personally dont believe the two diseases (and the person's ability to control their respective tendencies or impulses) are comparable. It really is that simple.
This type of psychosis is incredibly rare. Alcoholism is rampant. Most, if not all, courts agree that diminished capacity due to drunkeness, whether due to a one time binge or a disease, is not a viable legal excuse, and I tend to agree with that.
Agreed. For me, it's as simple as the notion that an alcoholic dictates his or her own mental clarity. You sacrifice your clarity willingly by drinking, and you accept the ramifications that may arise after that first sip. Very different than someone whose mental clarity is clearly beyond his or her control.
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EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
I appreciate the road you are taking here, but I just personally dont believe the two diseases (and the person's ability to control their respective tendencies or impulses) are comparable. It really is that simple.
This type of psychosis is incredibly rare. Alcoholism is rampant. Most, if not all, courts agree that diminished capacity due to drunkeness, whether due to a one time binge or a disease, is not a viable legal excuse, and I tend to agree with that.
Agreed. For me, it's as simple as the notion that an alcoholic dictates his or her own mental clarity. You sacrifice your clarity willingly by drinking, and you accept the ramifications that may arise after that first sip. Very different than someone whose mental clarity is clearly beyond his or her control.
Except raging alcoholics are not in control of their mental clarity. Their illness commands them and their actions much like voices inside someone's head might command them. In extreme cases, an alcoholic's day is seeking the bottle at any cost. People don't drink at work because they think it might be fun... they do so because they are compelled to and powerless to abstain. They are in a free fall that when not under the influence might be able to recognize such, but are too sick to do anything about it.
It's not so simple to suggest alcoholics are electing to drink and assuming all the consequences resulting from doing so. Alcoholics are shackled to their addiction and why we might say, "Well, they only have themselves to blame"... in many cases, the substance abuse is linked to underlying issues that we might be sympathetic to.
A. I believe in Jesus Christ. He is my saviour. I try to follow God.
Q. When did you begin to experience schizophrenia?
A. I thought I heard the voice of God telling me to write down my journey. The voice told me that I was the third story of the Bible. That I was like the second coming of Jesus. I was to save people from a space-alien attack. That is why I travelled around the country. I am not sure of all the places I went to. I now know that it was schizophrenia I was suffering from.
Q. What helps you deal with stress?
A. Taking my medication. Exercising and doing Bible study with the chaplain here.
Q. How would you know you were getting sick again?
A. Hearing voices, stopping my medication and starting to believe in aliens. God would not tell me to do something bad.
Who is Chris Summerville? CEO, Schizophrenia Society of Canada executive director, Manitoba Schizophrenia Society certified psychosocial rehabilitation practitioner ordained pastor with the Associated Gospel Churches of Canadanon-government director, has served as a pastor, chaplain, teacher, administrator and mental-health service provider in Canada and the U.S.
I appreciate the road you are taking here, but I just personally dont believe the two diseases (and the person's ability to control their respective tendencies or impulses) are comparable. It really is that simple.
This type of psychosis is incredibly rare. Alcoholism is rampant. Most, if not all, courts agree that diminished capacity due to drunkeness, whether due to a one time binge or a disease, is not a viable legal excuse, and I tend to agree with that.
I know we disagree here, but I do think they can be compared.
In both cases, you have people who's actions can be attributed to their affliction. While one might be extremely rare in comparison, that doesn't make it more legitimate- especially for the individual struggling with alcohol that makes a fatal decision under the influence.
And I don't hold much respect for our courts (as you know). I mean, why should I? In our city, we very recently had a guy with multiple driving offences and a suspended license kill a woman at a crosswalk trying to get to a casino. Initially, a judge really threw the book at him and sentenced him to 6 months in jail.
Seen as absurdly unjust, an appeal saw another idiot judge overturn that sentence and reduced the sentence to 6 months house arrest (critical of the first sentence as well). Hahahaha. He got grounded! Why? His aboriginal background needed to be taken into account. Why not just give him nothing- make him say sorry or something? A colossal joke... and hardly 'unique'.
You can cherry pick absurdly stupid rulings all you want to make your point, but for every idiot decision made by one judge, there are 10,000 others that make sense but aren't reported on.
As much as health professionals call alcoholism a disease, which i disagree with, but for the discussion let's say it is. The main difference here is alcoholics KNOW they are ill, and are fully capable of making the choice to seek help for their addiction before they kill someone. Someone in Li's situation, however, did not have the luxury of knowing he needed help.
On that difference alone, these two cannot be compared.
A. I believe in Jesus Christ. He is my saviour. I try to follow God.
Q. When did you begin to experience schizophrenia?
A. I thought I heard the voice of God telling me to write down my journey. The voice told me that I was the third story of the Bible. That I was like the second coming of Jesus. I was to save people from a space-alien attack. That is why I travelled around the country. I am not sure of all the places I went to. I now know that it was schizophrenia I was suffering from.
Q. What helps you deal with stress?
A. Taking my medication. Exercising and doing Bible study with the chaplain here.
Q. How would you know you were getting sick again?
A. Hearing voices, stopping my medication and starting to believe in aliens. God would not tell me to do something bad.
Who is Chris Summerville? CEO, Schizophrenia Society of Canada executive director, Manitoba Schizophrenia Society certified psychosocial rehabilitation practitioner ordained pastor with the Associated Gospel Churches of Canadanon-government director, has served as a pastor, chaplain, teacher, administrator and mental-health service provider in Canada and the U.S.
Who is the "quack shrink" you are referring to? You do realize that the interview isn't by his psychiatrist, right?
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
Comments
And do you know how many days he was off his pills the time he killed that young lad? Neither do I! Could have been one whole day and he started hearing voices. Just saying!
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
Firstly, he never actually got his hands dirty... so a reasonably competent lawyer and our most stern judge would have been very lenient with their initial sentencing.
Secondly, his background would have had people clutching their hands at their chests and feeling sorry for him- he was institutionalized early and often.
Third, he was in a drugged out stupor- incapable of knowing exactly what he was doing.
Fourth, he would have a team of eager professionals advocating his release to legitimize their publically funded services.
We rock, eh?
But perhaps something that doesn't routinely lay out the red carpet for our worst might be a reasonable change effort.
yes, I tend to believe that melodrama make someone look foolish. that's my opinion.
edit: and thirty, if you are going to try to get under my skin, please try to use a different insult other than the "don't pout and leave..." shit again. you've used that like 14 times already. it's getting old.
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the old "well then, if you think he should be let out, why don't you let him babysit your kid" IS stupid. it's tired and a just plain lazy argument. I stand by that.
I am also questioning the parameters of his release. I have stated repeatedly that I'm not 100% comfortable with it. he's being released IN MY CITY. I have kids. So yeah, there is a level of concern there. But I also don't believe that someone who WAS sick belongs locked up forever.
I just don't think the usual "lock this crazy fucker up and throw away the key" furthers the discussion.
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Li is a whole different ball game.
if it happened today? I sincerely doubt it. all you are basing your theory on is your extreme bias towards our penal system.
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I support what's right for all. every situation is different. there are those who belong behind bars forever and those who even I sometimes think the death penalty (which I'm against) would even be appropriate. but not this case. not in my opinion.
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Regardless, we've done this dance already. I retain the same outlook as before as do you. There's no need to pit ourselves as adversaries here when we healthily agree on other issues.
Have a good day.
Some people have bad luck. Some are born with cancer and die as children. Some people get hit by a drunk driver and killed. Some people get ALS and spend years living in a body that won't work. Some people get a mental illness and unfortunately in extreme cases they injury or kill people.
Just like an ALS patient is unlucky and forced to live in a deteriorating body with no or very little quality of life, an individual is equally unlucky to have a mental disorder that to protect the general public forces them to live in a 24 hour monitored facility.
We can't right every wrong unfortunately.
Anyway, again, I did not read every post or article but just throwing in my 2 cents in general. If there is 100% certainty this guy won't kill again and it can be guaranteed, maybe the outcome is a little different.
What do you do with that? Forget the studies, empirical evidence, statistics et al. You chop off a head and eat flesh there is no rehab, there is no medicine, there is no PHD guy that can save you in the court - banished from society for life nothing else. Any judge behind a bench passes judgement on the facts the lawyers present - as well as a touch of their moral conviction.
I would hope that any attorney/doctor that is successful in advocating for a monster as such should verily be held accountable should a re-offence occur. We all know this won't happen. This is scary that society can now "cure" head loppers and cannibals with success.
Shame.
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EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Denogginizer (correct spelling):
"A big, bold beer hopped with an abundant amount of dank, citrusy American hops. Crystal and Munich malts add color and a subtle caramel malt flavor that helps balance out the immense hop dosings in this monster Imperial IPA."
Not sure what this has to do with the thread topic unless that's what cannibals wash those tasty thumb appetizers down with. I know, you think I'm kidding but I really did read somewhere that cannibals consider thumbs a delicacy
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/05/22/greyhound-bus-beheader-vince-li-i-dont-hear-voices/
WINNIPEG —Vince Li says he understands why people are still afraid of him.
He says he remembers what happened on a Greyhound bus bound for Winnipeg during that midsummer’s nightmare in 2008.
But now that he is medicated for his illness, he says the aliens he was afraid of have disappeared, the voices he heard are silent, and he is aware of why it happened on a different level.
Painfully aware.
“I try to forget it . . . I feel nervous. I feel painful. I am embarrassed. It was wrong.”
Related
Li spoke those words last weekend when, for the first time in the nearly four years since he made international headlines for the horrifying psychosis-induced beheading of fellow Greyhound passenger Tim McLean, Li granted a full-length interview for release to the media.
The contents of the interview were supplied to the Winnipeg Free Press.
Li also said he feels sorry for what he did and what it has done to McLean’s family.
“I would do anything for their family. I would ask forgiveness, but I know it would be hard to accept.”
The interview was conducted Sunday at the Selkirk Mental Health Centre by Chris Summerville, CEO of the Schizophrenia Society of Canada, who said he has spoken with Li once every two months, on average, since Li’s confinement began nearly four years ago. Li will remain in Selkirk until a review board judges him fit to be released. He was granted temporary passes last week by a review board to take supervised walks in Selkirk.
The interview was held in the foyer of Selkirk’s forensics unit. Summerville and Li separately had to go through two sets of locked doors to meet in the foyer.
With Li’s written permission, Summerville released the “formal” portion of the 45-minute interview because, the Winnipeg-based mental-health executive said, he feels “Mr. Li’s story needs to be told.”
“What we have here,” Summerville added in an email that accompanied the interview, “are two victims and two families who are victims of untreated, uncontrolled psychosis.”
Summerville further explained why he had decided Li’s story should be part of the broader conversation on the not-criminally-responsible debate being driven, in part, by McLean’s mother, Carol de Delley, who is championing the so-called Tim’s Law, which would keep people judged not criminally responsible for a homicide confined for life.
“There are no easy answers to the many-faceted questions that bombard both families and the media,” Summerville said.
“However, I think the media have been more favourable to the McLean family, probably because public sentiment is on their side and we as a country have entered a period of ‘tough on crime,’ with little attention paid to restorative justice, rehabilitation, recovery and redemption, or the influence and role of mental illness in this particular most unfortunate incident.”
Summerville also added this: “Before I do any interview regarding the Greyhound bus tragedy, I always ask myself, ‘What if it had been my 25-year-old daughter?’
“My sympathy to Ms. de Delley and her family is real. And yet, I also ask, ‘What if it had been my son who had killed Tim McLean in such a ghastly and grotesque fashion?’ I hope that such self-questioning softens my response to the many questions I have been asked about my personal and professional knowledge of Mr. Li.”
Summerville brought Li a Chinese meal, which they shared prior to the formal portion of the interview.
“Mr. Li was soft-spoken, using simple English as English is not his first language,” Summerville said. “His answers were rather direct and succinct, revealing a person who has given much contemplation to this tragedy and his guilt.”
(part one)
This is the interview conducted, edited and supplied by Summerville:
Q. Tell me about your background.
A. I am a 44 years old and grew up in northeastern China in the province of Liaoning.
My mother and father are still living. I have an older brother who is a businessman and a younger sister who is a secretary. They know about the Greyhound bus situation, but my mother and father do not.
My wife and I immigrated to Winnipeg, Canada, in June 2001. I had studied as a computer engineer for four years in China. But I could not find a job in Canada. I worked at McDonald’s, Meatland Foods and at Grant Memorial Baptist Church.
Q. Do you have a spirituality?
A. I believe in Jesus Christ. He is my saviour. I try to follow God.
Q. When did you begin to experience schizophrenia?
A. In 2004. I didn’t know what it was. I now know what it is. I began to hear voices that normal people do not hear. I thought I heard the voice of God telling me to write down my journey. The voice told me that I was the third story of the Bible. That I was like the second coming of Jesus. I was to save people from a space-alien attack. That is why I travelled around the country. I am not sure of all the places I went to. I now know that it was schizophrenia I was suffering from.
Q. Why did you do what you did on the bus?
A. I bought a knife at Canadian Tire. I bought it for any emergency for the journey to protect myself from the aliens. I was really scared. . . . I believed he was an alien. The voices told me to kill him. That he would kill me or others. I do not believe this now. It was totally wrong. It was my fault. I sinned. But it was the schizophrenia.
Q. What else do you remember about the incident?
A. I try to forget it. I try to stay busy here. It is painful to think about.
Q. How do you feel about what happened?
A. I feel nervous. I feel painful. I am embarrassed. It was wrong.
Q. Do you understand why people are scared of you?
A. Yes. I don’t think I will ever do it again. I didn’t know at that time I had schizophrenia. Now I do.
Q. What would you say to Ms. de Delley and Tim McLean’s family?
A. I am really sorry for what I did. If I could talk to her directly, I would do anything for their family. I would ask forgiveness, but I know it would be hard to accept.
Q. How has the time been at the Selkirk Mental Health Centre?
A. I know that I suffer from schizophrenia. The treatment team gives me a chance to recover, to be normal. I am glad to be taking the medication.
Q. Do you think you are getting better?
A. Yes. My thinking is becoming normal. I don’t think weird things. I take my medication, Olanzapine, every day. I am glad to take it. I don’t have any weird voices anymore.
Q. How do we know you will take your medication when you get out on your own?
A. I would be glad to be under a treatment order, because medication helps me. It is very important. I don’t want to do what I did ever again.
Q. How does it make you feel that most people do not think you should get a pass to walk around in Selkirk? Do you understand their fear?
A. I understand people are scared because of my behaviour on the Greyhound bus. I am not at risk for anybody. I don’t believe in aliens. I don’t hear voices. I would call my doctor if I heard voices again. Yes, I understand their fear.
Q. Some say the RCMP should have killed you that night.
A. I should have been killed at that time. I still believe that. But I am thankful that the RCMP didn’t.
Q. What is schizophrenia? What are you learning?
A. It is hearing voices or having delusions. You don’t know what is real. I need to take medication on time. I also have to have meaningful activity, something to do. I have to learn how to handle stress.
Q. What helps you deal with stress?
A. Taking my medication. Exercising and doing Bible study with the chaplain here.
Q. Do you have side-effects from the medication?
A. Yes. I sleep too much. I feel tired a lot and I have gained some weight.
Q. Do you believe you should be under a treatment order?
A. I should be here. I should be under a treatment order.
Q. If you ever got out of the Selkirk Mental Health Centre, what would you do?
A. I hope to leave one day, but I have to make sure it wouldn’t happen again. That there would be no voices. I would change my name to be anonymous. But I would still be in touch with my doctor.
Q. What do you think of Tim’s Law, that any mentally insane person who kills someone would never be released?
A. I don’t think so, that that should happen. Mental illness is an illness. It is treatable. My schizophrenia is not the real me, but it is an illness.
Q. How would you know you were getting sick again?
A. Hearing voices, stopping my medication and starting to believe in aliens. God would not tell me to do something bad.
Q. How do you feel about what you are reading in the newspapers?
A. I don’t read the papers because I don’t want to be reminded of what happened on the Greyhound bus because it was so bad and wrong.
Q. Are you happy?
A. No.
Q. Will you ever be happy?
A. No. I can never forget the Greyhound bus.
Q. Any final words?
A. I would like to say to Tim McLean’s mother “I am sorry for killing your son. I am sorry for the pain I have caused. I wished I could reduce that pain.”
Summerville added this as a postscript:
As we ended the interview, I could see the moisture in Mr. Li’s eyes. It is remarkable the insight Mr. Li has. It is even more remarkable the positive effects of the medication. Up to 25 per cent of people who will have a psychotic break with reality will never experience another psychotic episode. Up to 65 per cent will experience a degree of recovery in order to live a meaningful life. Ten per cent will take their life by suicide due to the losses associated with schizophrenia.
Of the 300,000 people in Canada who live with some form of schizophrenia, the vast majority lead quiet, law-abiding lives hoping for some quality of life. People living with schizophrenia are more likely to be victims of violence rather than being perpetrators of violence. Schizophrenia is treatable. Recovery is possible.
Who is Chris Summerville?
CEO, Schizophrenia Society of Canada
executive director, Manitoba Schizophrenia Society certified psychosocial rehabilitation practitioner
ordained pastor with the Associated Gospel Churches of Canadanon-government director, Mental Health Commission of Canada
past chairman, Manitoba Provincial Advisory Council on Mental Health to the Minister of Health
past chairman, Alliance on Mental Illness and Mental Health in Manitoba
doctorate in theology, Dallas Theological Seminary
has served as a pastor, chaplain, teacher, administrator and mental-health service provider in Canada and the U.S.
I, Vince Li, under no duress or coercion, do give unconditional permission for Chris Summerville to share my story and to use any information I have given him in an interview conducted May 19, 2012, at Selkirk Mental Health Centre. I understand that this interview or parts of it about me may be published in the printed press or used in radio and television media.
—statement from Vince Li provided by Chris Summerville
Up to 65% will experience a degree of recovery in order to live a meaningful life.
Li says if he does have a break from an episode, he will call his doctor.
Those two statistics plus Li's promise are enough to satisfy some, but sorry... not me.
* Should I submit a piece that details the crime itself and the subsequent trauma the family has endured? They speak to the real victim.
** Alcoholism is a disease too. When habitual drunks kill people, we don't take great lengths to describe their pasts which led them to seek refuge in liquor. We focus on the crime that was committed. The drunk typically- in a sober state- is apologetic and also capable of being rehabilitated with medical assistance. What is the difference?
www.headstonesband.com
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Li couldn't control his impulses given his illness and mutilated MacLean because he thought he was an alien.
Some drunks are not capable of making a sound decision to refrain from getting behind the wheel (killing people accidentally in the process)- they are impaired. The 'conscious' choice is hardly that.
If one can argue that there is at least some potential for the drunk person to somehow make a safe decision at some point in their consumption timeline, then someone could make the same argument that a mentally ill person such as Li seek help when they start hearing voices.
In Li's case, he started hearing voices that eventually escalated to ones telling him to chop MacLean's head off, stuff some parts of him in his pockets, and eat him too. To that, he wasn't simply defending himself from a perceived threat- he was savagely attacking his imagined adversary with extreme violence and unfathomable gore. Hardly a simple self defense.
If we cannot see the similarities between these two scenarios, then we are either discounting one disease or lending much more support to the other. They both can contribute to poor behavior. They both can be treated. Yet we seem willing to pardon one and not the other.
Why would we be so willing and eager to rehabilitate and forgive Li after doing what he did... yet reluctant to do the same for, say, the lifetime victim of abuse that kills someone at a crosswalk while highly impaired escaping from their pain?
This type of psychosis is incredibly rare. Alcoholism is rampant. Most, if not all, courts agree that diminished capacity due to drunkeness, whether due to a one time binge or a disease, is not a viable legal excuse, and I tend to agree with that.
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In both cases, you have people who's actions can be attributed to their affliction. While one might be extremely rare in comparison, that doesn't make it more legitimate- especially for the individual struggling with alcohol that makes a fatal decision under the influence.
And I don't hold much respect for our courts (as you know). I mean, why should I? In our city, we very recently had a guy with multiple driving offences and a suspended license kill a woman at a crosswalk trying to get to a casino. Initially, a judge really threw the book at him and sentenced him to 6 months in jail.
Seen as absurdly unjust, an appeal saw another idiot judge overturn that sentence and reduced the sentence to 6 months house arrest (critical of the first sentence as well). Hahahaha. He got grounded! Why? His aboriginal background needed to be taken into account. Why not just give him nothing- make him say sorry or something? A colossal joke... and hardly 'unique'.
Again... our courts are a joke.
http://www.cbc.ca/kamloops/mt/2015/02/17/kamloops-mans-aboriginal-background-factors-into-reduced-sentence-for-fatal-traffic-accident/
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
It's not so simple to suggest alcoholics are electing to drink and assuming all the consequences resulting from doing so. Alcoholics are shackled to their addiction and why we might say, "Well, they only have themselves to blame"... in many cases, the substance abuse is linked to underlying issues that we might be sympathetic to.
As much as health professionals call alcoholism a disease, which i disagree with, but for the discussion let's say it is. The main difference here is alcoholics KNOW they are ill, and are fully capable of making the choice to seek help for their addiction before they kill someone. Someone in Li's situation, however, did not have the luxury of knowing he needed help.
On that difference alone, these two cannot be compared.
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