Trayvon Martin

blackredyellow

cincybearcat wrote:

puremagic wrote:

WTF do you think would have happen had Trayvon called the police, knowing what you know in hindsight? Do you think a black teen, in a dark area (as you seemingly described) would have had a chance to convince police, he was unarmed, had a bag of candy and was heading home? Trayvon would still be dead.

I'm not sure I follow you. How would he still be dead if he had called police and they showed up and he had a chance to convince them ....etc?

Not sure the point pure was trying to make, but chances are if Trayvon called the police, nothing would have changed. They were already on their way there, so it's not like they would have gotten there in time to do anything.

cincybearcat

blackredyellow wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

puremagic wrote:

WTF do you think would have happen had Trayvon called the police, knowing what you know in hindsight? Do you think a black teen, in a dark area (as you seemingly described) would have had a chance to convince police, he was unarmed, had a bag of candy and was heading home? Trayvon would still be dead.

I'm not sure I follow you. How would he still be dead if he had called police and they showed up and he had a chance to convince them ....etc?

Not sure the point pure was trying to make, but chances are if Trayvon called the police, nothing would have changed. They were already on their way there, so it's not like they would have gotten there in time to do anything.

I agree with your assessment, I just wonder what they hell they are talking about.

Monster Rain

polaris_x wrote:

shadowcast wrote:

Where are you getting the information that the Martin showed up in front? I have yet to see that. Please post it. I have read that Zimmerman after being instructed that he was to back down did just that and was walking back to his truck. Then was rushed by Martin coming from his back left. Let me repeat that back left.

from his girlfriend who he was talking to while being followed by zimmerman:

He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man...I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run.

Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone.

Nowhere in there does it say that Zimmerman was in front of Martin. For all anyone knows the conversation she heard was taking place after Zimmerman had started walking away, Martin went back after him, and Martin shoved Zimmerman. Unless they were using Facetime she can't tell who shoved who or where they were standing in relation to each other when the conversation began. That doesn't necessarily mean she's wrong about what she thinks happened, but you're assuming a lot in taking that as fact at this point (and people taking Zimmerman's version as 100% true are also assuming a lot). Until we know all the details we really shouldn't assume anyone's guilt--and I say that having already said earlier in this thread that Zimmerman is guilty, so I'm calling myself out when I say that, too. I honestly hope that we eventually know everything that happened and the correct decision is made about whether or not to charge Zimmerman, but I have a feeling that the damage has already been done by the police department's mishandling of the case and the media's rush to judgment (when they could have brought this story to light without making it a black/white issue and sloppily reporting contradicting versions of the story seemingly every day).

shadowcast

polaris_x wrote:

shadowcast wrote:

Where are you getting the information that the Martin showed up in front? I have yet to see that. Please post it. I have read that Zimmerman after being instructed that he was to back down did just that and was walking back to his truck. Then was rushed by Martin coming from his back left. Let me repeat that back left.

from his girlfriend who he was talking to while being followed by zimmerman:

He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man...I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run.

Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone.

We have conflicting stories as zimmerman said he was walking away and was approached by Martin.

norm

as a 17 year old, if someone was following me i probably would have confronted him...17 year olds do dumb things like that

shadowcast

Let me just adress this again. I am in no way taking sides in this sad story. I think we need to wait and see all evidence before we convict someone.

ComeToTX

RW81233 wrote:

racism may not have been the motive behind the killing but the lack of police activity around what seems to be a case worth at least delving into seems telling no?

Agree. If Trayvon was white and Zimmerman was a black guy and the rest of the facts were the same would he be in jail? I think he would.

polaris_x

Monster Rain wrote:

Nowhere in there does it say that Zimmerman was in front of Martin. For all anyone knows the conversation she heard was taking place after Zimmerman had started walking away, Martin went back after him, and Martin shoved Zimmerman. Unless they were using Facetime she can't tell who shoved who or where they were standing in relation to each other when the conversation began. That doesn't necessarily mean she's wrong about what she thinks happened, but you're assuming a lot in taking that as fact at this point (and people taking Zimmerman's version as 100% true are also assuming a lot). Until we know all the details we really shouldn't assume anyone's guilt--and I say that having already said earlier in this thread that Zimmerman is guilty, so I'm calling myself out when I say that, too. I honestly hope that we eventually know everything that happened and the correct decision is made about whether or not to charge Zimmerman, but I have a feeling that the damage has already been done by the police department's mishandling of the case and the media's rush to judgment (when they could have brought this story to light without making it a black/white issue and sloppily reporting contradicting versions of the story seemingly every day).

based on this account ... he was talking to her ... he thought he lost him ... then he showed up out of nowhere ... and then the phone went dead ... it's not a far stretch at all to say that zimmerman showed up ... how does someone following someone end up in front of that person if he was retreating?

ComeToTX

There's no doubt our opinions of whether we think he was murdered or not should be totally based on whether Trayvon was suspended from school at the time of the shooting. :roll:

norm

ABC News reported today that the lead homicide investigator of Trayvon Martin's killing recommended that Trayvon's shooter, George Zimmerman, be arrested and charged with manslaughter. That police investigator, Chris Serino, filed an affidavit on the night of the killing "that stated he was unconvinced by Zimmerman's version of events," according to ABC. But Serino was overruled by the state attorney's office, which said there wasn't enough evidence to secure a conviction in court.

The ABC report also recounted a new detail about Zimmerman's account of that night, concerning Zimmerman's gun: "Martin knocked him down with a punch to his nose, jumped on him, repeatedly banged his head on the ground, then tried to grab Zimmerman's gun," the report states. "In a struggle for Zimmerman's gun, the watchman shot the teenager, Zimmerman told police."

http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/03 ... d#struggle

edit: i've deleted the commentary...sorry, i didn't read it closely when i pasted it...i only posted this update the story

vduboise

I don't remember seeing in past posts, but

did Zimmerman ever identify himself to Martin that he was the neighborhood watch when he confronted him? Does Zimmerman wear a uniform and/or does his car have identification that he's part of the neighborhood watch? Did he approach Martin with an attitude?
If a stranger just comes and rolls up to me and gives me shit, I probably would have given it back.

But if Zimmerman did say he was the neighborhood watch, then what happens afterward is "he said, he said". Again, if Zimmerman came at him with attitude, isn't a 17 year old going to give it back? maybe, maybe not. Only Zimmerman truly knows what happened, because the other person can't talk.

As they say, it's not always what you say, but all about how you say it that makes a difference.

in any event, the police bungled it and Zimmerman should have been charged because he was told to stay in his car and he precipitated the events that happened.

MotoDC

norm wrote:

ABC News reported today that the lead homicide investigator of Trayvon Martin's killing recommended that Trayvon's shooter, George Zimmerman, be arrested and charged with manslaughter. That police investigator, Chris Serino, filed an affidavit on the night of the killing "that stated he was unconvinced by Zimmerman's version of events," according to ABC. But Serino was overruled by the state attorney's office, which said there wasn't enough evidence to secure a conviction in court.

The ABC report also recounted a new detail about Zimmerman's account of that night, concerning Zimmerman's gun: "Martin knocked him down with a punch to his nose, jumped on him, repeatedly banged his head on the ground, then tried to grab Zimmerman's gun," the report states. "In a struggle for Zimmerman's gun, the watchman shot the teenager, Zimmerman told police."

This account raises the question: How did Trayvon Martin know Zimmerman was armed with a handgun? Under Florida law, Zimmerman was licensed only to carry it concealed; the state's permit guidelines also instruct licensees not to brandish their weapons as a deterrent. But in claiming that there was a struggle for his gun, Zimmerman's account suggests he had the weapon out, or visible on his person. It's possible that this inconsistency could have contributed to the investigator Serino's suspicions about Zimmerman's story.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/03 ... d#struggle

Can't speak for Florida (though given its Stand Your Ground law, I'm guessing it's at least as gun-friendly as my home state), but in Virginia, a "license to carry concealed" does not restrict from carrying openly on a hip holster or some such thing. In fact, you don't even need a license to carry openly.

It's true that "brandishing" absent at least a perceived mortal threat is illegal whether you have a license to carry concealed or not.

markin ball

MotoDC wrote:

norm wrote:

ABC News reported today that the lead homicide investigator of Trayvon Martin's killing recommended that Trayvon's shooter, George Zimmerman, be arrested and charged with manslaughter. That police investigator, Chris Serino, filed an affidavit on the night of the killing "that stated he was unconvinced by Zimmerman's version of events," according to ABC. But Serino was overruled by the state attorney's office, which said there wasn't enough evidence to secure a conviction in court.

The ABC report also recounted a new detail about Zimmerman's account of that night, concerning Zimmerman's gun: "Martin knocked him down with a punch to his nose, jumped on him, repeatedly banged his head on the ground, then tried to grab Zimmerman's gun," the report states. "In a struggle for Zimmerman's gun, the watchman shot the teenager, Zimmerman told police."

This account raises the question: How did Trayvon Martin know Zimmerman was armed with a handgun? Under Florida law, Zimmerman was licensed only to carry it concealed; the state's permit guidelines also instruct licensees not to brandish their weapons as a deterrent. But in claiming that there was a struggle for his gun, Zimmerman's account suggests he had the weapon out, or visible on his person. It's possible that this inconsistency could have contributed to the investigator Serino's suspicions about Zimmerman's story.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/03 ... d#struggle

Can't speak for Florida (though given its Stand Your Ground law, I'm guessing it's at least as gun-friendly as my home state), but in Virginia, a "license to carry concealed" does not restrict from carrying openly on a hip holster or some such thing. In fact, you don't even need a license to carry openly.

It's true that "brandishing" absent at least a perceived mortal threat is illegal whether you have a license to carry concealed or not.

I thought that was weird, too. The article appears to be ignorant. You can carry your gun almost anywhere you want as long as it is not concealed.

cincybearcat

vduboise wrote:

I don't remember seeing in past posts, but

did Zimmerman ever identify himself to Martin that he was the neighborhood watch when he confronted him? Does Zimmerman wear a uniform and/or does his car have identification that he's part of the neighborhood watch? Did he approach Martin with an attitude?
If a stranger just comes and rolls up to me and gives me shit, I probably would have given it back.

But if Zimmerman did say he was the neighborhood watch, then what happens afterward is "he said, he said". Again, if Zimmerman came at him with attitude, isn't a 17 year old going to give it back? maybe, maybe not. Only Zimmerman truly knows what happened, because the other person can't talk.

As they say, it's not always what you say, but all about how you say it that makes a difference.

in any event, the police bungled it and Zimmerman should have been charged because he was told to stay in his car and he precipitated the events that happened.

Or, as it seems, the police did it right and the states attorney decided there wasn't enough evidence. But people continue to blame the police and jump to racism.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

cincybearcat wrote:

Suspended from school and the mother sends him to Florida for a vacation? Suspended from school and the father lets him out of the house to go to the store? Really? Nice parenting.

so he needs to be locked up in a room because he got suspended from school? he can't go out and get some skittles? really?

Hugh Freaking Dillon

it really bugs me that people keep saying the police fucked this up because they haven't charged him. it's not the police department's call if they charge him with murder, is it? or have I been watching too much law and order?

catefrances

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

it really bugs me that people keep saying the police fucked this up because they haven't charged him. it's not the police department's call if they charge him with murder, is it? or have I been watching too much law and order?

do you watch law and order UK? if not then no... you arent watching too much L&O.

Godfather.

ComeToTX wrote:

RW81233 wrote:

racism may not have been the motive behind the killing but the lack of police activity around what seems to be a case worth at least delving into seems telling no?

Agree. If Trayvon was white and Zimmerman was a black guy and the rest of the facts were the same would he be in jail? I think he would.

disagree, I watch 48 hours and just last night there was a story about a black male that was suspected of killing a white female and even after seeing him on security video pawning the victims ring they could not arrest him till they had a better case gathered on him, I think a lot of people on the train are a little to quick to judge on issues of racism.

Godfather.

Godfather.

Jeanwah all the facts keep coming out a little at a time a just because a KID is dead does not mean the shooter is guilty of anything except protecting himself,we here on the train only know what keeps coming out in the news and so far it keeps leaning towards the shooter protecting himself and the only reason everybody on the train keeps saying the shooter is guilty is because trayvon was 17 years old and black...we don't even know for sure who was screaming in the back ground of the 911 call...as one of the other train members keeps saying"lets wait to see" because this case is far from over.

Godfather.

Godfather.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/28/el ... latestnews

spike lee is a fucking idiot, you guys are right in that racism is a issue in this case idiots like spike lee just keep proving that.

Godfather.