legalize drugs ?????

pandora

peacefrompaul wrote:

pandora wrote:

A dead child today may have wished they would have adhered to different beliefs

I understand your children thing. Excellent appeal to Pathos.

this is all about emotion ... when we stop caring about each other
we might as well blow the world up ... I almost said the b- word

pandora

will return to reply going to see grandoggies...

peacefrompaul

pandora wrote:

will return to reply going to see grandoggies...

mikepegg44

pandora wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

pandora wrote:

to legalize is to condone

that isn't true.

legal or not I would not do them...wouldn't have...don't really like weed, and I am not into hallucinating...
I would also educate my family not to do them...but it is their choice for themselves, not mine...i can only telll them the consequences of their actions with me.

but that doesn't give me the right to stop someone else,
or to keep the medical uses of Marijuana from people who need them.

Why do people feel the need to control others they have never and will never meet?


Can you honestly call the war on drugs a success?

And yes to legalize is to condone...
it is a society that says it agrees with the practice or use as in abortion and
capital punishment as I mentioned before.

Please can we NOT talk about POT I am talking about CRYSTAL METH!

talking about them in the same breath... as though they are the same is ridiculous!

I am talking about countless children dying from hard drugs.
I care ... call me super silly...

and please don't tell me that adorable child in your avatar will
not use hard drugs just because you educate them... you have no idea.
And tell me in 15 years how that works
that is if your child chooses to be an addict that will be dandy with you
you will just tell them the consequences ... would that be while you are holding them dying?

And yes to legalize is to condone...
it is a society that says it agrees with the practice or use as in abortion and
capital punishment as I mentioned before.

Pandora, I respect your opinion, but the above is non-sense.

it isn't the same thing to say someone CAN legally do drugs and someone SHOULD legally do drugs.

that is the difference between legalizing and condoning.

Liberty has its pitfalls...people having choice being one of them...

People die and live through all sorts of choices everyday...you can't save everyone, nor should you try...The people the government, and you, should worry about are the ones who CHOOSE to get clean if the drugs have taken over...

Cheeks

I think it may help to remind people that we are ultimately all on the same side... right? We all want to prevent other love ones from being affected by or lost to addiction. Yes?
Having read some of the stories on here and understanding that some of you have lost and been hurt more than anyone can fully comprehend, I can see why many would want to fight this war on drugs full force. Until I began reading this thread and the original article, I would never have thought legalizing hard drugs would be something rational people would consider. I would have hoped more funds would go to treatment and support, but would never have given much thought to the implication and effect of legalization. I'm not saying I'm totally for it, I'm still on the fence but with an open mind.
Billions of dollars has been spent trying to fight the drug war.... I don't know any actual stats, but it seems to be a loosing battle. So when do you decide that one strategy isn't working and switch tactics?
I don't know enough about how the drug trade/black market works to really contribute in that area, but have been thinking about this analogy...
I'm a relatively new mom. My daughter is two and is not an easy child. She is very active, very smart, talks as well as most 4 year olds, but can be a handful. She climbs, she yells, she runs, she's out right defiant at times.... As I was taught by my parents, I tried the regular hard discipline of time outs, yelling and even a spanking (although I couldn't bring myself to actually hurt her, so she just laughed at me). Nothing worked. I know she's just having fun, but I don't want to see her break her arm when she falls over the railing or something. I want to protect her—not by taking away her choices, but trying to prevent a hard fall.
So, I tried something new. When she is acting up, I stop what I'm doing and I get down on the floor and play with her for ten or 15 minutes. Friends thought I was crazy saying “You're just teaching her that bad behaviour gets attention.” Nope... it may be counterintuitive, but it works like a charm. Since I've been doing this, her behaviour has really settled. She will ask me to play with her, but will patiently wait if I have to finish something first. She is much more polite, quiet, loving.
Just some thoughts. I don't mean any offence by simplifying the issue so much, or by comparing addiction issues to dealing with a toddler—kind of comparing apples to watermelons, but hopefully you follow where my thoughts were going.

pandora

Drowned Out wrote:

pandora wrote:

I'm sorry that is writing off another human being.

We all have choices its the plan but so is caring enough for others.

Being the old lady I am I often think about the world after my exit,
when one sees mortality in years not decades it can change the perspective
one once had.

I think what's next...

legalized hunting of people perhaps :?

I mean that which is hunted still made the choice. For whatever reward.
Would a society say that too is ok?
allowing another human being to hunt down and kill another because
it is their choices.
Perhaps only the depraved society would allow this

That is exactly what pushers do, they hunt down our children and they kill them,
long before they have mature reason to make a life changing,
life losing decision.

Hold a person in your arms ravaged by these kinds of drugs, your mother, your father,
brother, sister, best friend... CHILD and you make a choice.
It would be my choice to try to save them and live in a society that would never condone
the use Crystal Meth.

It is NOT writing off another human being…that’s the fundamental flaw in your argument, and the part that I find offensive…again, you’re inferring that your method of helping people is MORALLY SUPERIOR to other methods. Saying it's writing someone off suggests that people who support reforms are giving up, which is completely contrary to what is happening - people are looking for better ways to help.

I'll say it again: increased penalties for traffickers HURTS users as much or more than dealers…think about this: dealers are some of the staunchest proponents of decriminalization over legalization. While still a step in the right direction, it either has no effect, or a positive one on their bottom line, as they can raise prices - justified by increased risk.

Legal consequence is NOT a deterrent, the war on drugs has proven this ad nauseum, a child can see that…

Even if the black market is focused only on money, and not human interest (hello capitalism)…dealers do most definitely do NOT “hunt down our children and…kill them” Such over the top hyperbole it’s laughable. I guarantee you 99.9% of dealers have NEVER approached a stranger in an attempt to sell them drugs (let alone 'hunt them down'). THEY get approached by ‘our children’, and asked for them. What makes you think anything will change with stiffer penalties? Three strikes, mandatory minimums etc have done NOTHING to improve the situation, only made it worse. But keep trying to shift the blame, lookin for a scapegoat, no worries.
I say this without a touch of hyperbole of my own: Your drugs

---

>human hunting argument is the most inane slippery slope statement I’ve ever seen.

pandora wrote:

I used a smilie because I am proud and happy to be Godfather's friend ...
you are making this very negative and about you :?

You know where I stand I know where you do
time will tell if you will ever change how you feel about this
if you will ever hold your child on the brink of death, bargaining the devil himself.
I know what brings me to where I am and I know I will never change my mind

so we will agree to disagree

Making this negative? You’re going for shock value with extreme-case pictures, using over the top slippery slope arguments and hyperbole, making statements of moral superiority etc to discredit my stance…yet you accuse me of negativity? :roll:
You accuse me of making it about me, then follow with a personal statement of your own (more stuff about saving the kids, as if I don’t care about my own, and will come around, if I find myself with a kid in that situation - I guess you mean instead of less important people like my first love, former best friend, mother of my kids etc). So typical. I explained my background on the topic in some detail in response to Godfather doing the same, and you have alluded to your own past experiences (albeit vaguely) in every post in this thread…so….how am I making it about me, any more than you or your friend? More hypocrisy….

And lets be clear: I’m not trying to change your mind. I couldn’t care less about your opinion, individually. You admit to a rigid, unyielding belief structure, so I have no problem 'writing you off'.....But your opinions give me the opportunity to point out flaws in the prohibitionist stance, in an attempt to get people with open minds to think about other ways to improve the situation…as evidenced in this thread, it’s working. So thanks.

this post of mine was not directed at you though :?

in the post directed to you ...
as far as me saying it was about you I meant this quote of yours

Drowned Out wrote:

And you gave me shit about using the emoticon before .....gotta wonder if that smiley is a manifestation of the pleasure you take in antagonizing me. Such disrespect, as you would lecture...

sounds all about you ... actually it might sound a little paranoid
now that I reread it
when I was just happy to be considered a friend of Godfathers, why the smilie,
I was actually touched, my heart did a little skip a beat.

One thing you can count on with me I take no pleasure in antagonizing anyone
don't play like that ... I am honest.
And it was also pretty negative, which is your dislike for me showing...
therefore not a reasoned debate to take seriously

I'm all for change to help anyway we can short of legalizing killer drugs

I'm all for saving the children where the majority of drug abuse starts

but legalizing killer drugs is insanity and hopefully something we will never see

I'd rather see drug dealers get capital punishment first and I am against the death penalty

and I will say one more time the loss of any loved one
is not like that of your own child ... but you already know that

pandora

mikepegg44 wrote:

pandora wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

[

that isn't true.

legal or not I would not do them...wouldn't have...don't really like weed, and I am not into hallucinating...
I would also educate my family not to do them...but it is their choice for themselves, not mine...i can only telll them the consequences of their actions with me.

but that doesn't give me the right to stop someone else,
or to keep the medical uses of Marijuana from people who need them.

Why do people feel the need to control others they have never and will never meet?


Can you honestly call the war on drugs a success?

And yes to legalize is to condone...
it is a society that says it agrees with the practice or use as in abortion and
capital punishment as I mentioned before.

Please can we NOT talk about POT I am talking about CRYSTAL METH!

talking about them in the same breath... as though they are the same is ridiculous!

I am talking about countless children dying from hard drugs.
I care ... call me super silly...

and please don't tell me that adorable child in your avatar will
not use hard drugs just because you educate them... you have no idea.
And tell me in 15 years how that works
that is if your child chooses to be an addict that will be dandy with you
you will just tell them the consequences ... would that be while you are holding them dying?

And yes to legalize is to condone...
it is a society that says it agrees with the practice or use as in abortion and
capital punishment as I mentioned before.

Pandora, I respect your opinion, but the above is non-sense.

it isn't the same thing to say someone CAN legally do drugs and someone SHOULD legally do drugs.

that is the difference between legalizing and condoning.

Liberty has its pitfalls...people having choice being one of them...

People die and live through all sorts of choices everyday...you can't save everyone, nor should you try...The people the government, and you, should worry about are the ones who CHOOSE to get clean if the drugs have taken over...

a little fluff cut that's ok ... that can be your strategy sometimes

We can go around on this but society and it's chosen laws effects people's behavior.
We choose the laws we do because the majority believe in the need or the practice
and it sends a message that something is either accepted or it is not depending on the law.

As an adult in this society it is my duty to protect the children, not only my duty
everyone's duty. It is society's duty. This why we have laws protecting them.
To legalize killer drugs, drugs that take a life within months of use,
would be irresponsible.

As far as saving everyone ... we are not talking about vices, we are talking about
life and death substances.
Alcohol, Weed, Cigs, Food ...
these are ingestibles that are vices and may affect your health negatively over a lifetime.

We are talking killer drugs ... dead soon. Beautiful healthy promising bright loving
and loved child... dead.
We have drugs/ foods banned everyday when found to be dangerous and I think most people
are very glad of that.

Well, it is found that killer drugs are bad for our kids... hell they are bad for everyone and
for our society.

They should be treated as the dangerous substances they are... and remain illegal.

pandora

Firefox wrote:

I think it may help to remind people that we are ultimately all on the same side... right? We all want to prevent other love ones from being affected by or lost to addiction. Yes?
Having read some of the stories on here and understanding that some of you have lost and been hurt more than anyone can fully comprehend, I can see why many would want to fight this war on drugs full force. Until I began reading this thread and the original article, I would never have thought legalizing hard drugs would be something rational people would consider. I would have hoped more funds would go to treatment and support, but would never have given much thought to the implication and effect of legalization. I'm not saying I'm totally for it, I'm still on the fence but with an open mind.
Billions of dollars has been spent trying to fight the drug war.... I don't know any actual stats, but it seems to be a loosing battle. So when do you decide that one strategy isn't working and switch tactics?
I don't know enough about how the drug trade/black market works to really contribute in that area, but have been thinking about this analogy...
I'm a relatively new mom. My daughter is two and is not an easy child. She is very active, very smart, talks as well as most 4 year olds, but can be a handful. She climbs, she yells, she runs, she's out right defiant at times.... As I was taught by my parents, I tried the regular hard discipline of time outs, yelling and even a spanking (although I couldn't bring myself to actually hurt her, so she just laughed at me). Nothing worked. I know she's just having fun, but I don't want to see her break her arm when she falls over the railing or something. I want to protect her—not by taking away her choices, but trying to prevent a hard fall.
So, I tried something new. When she is acting up, I stop what I'm doing and I get down on the floor and play with her for ten or 15 minutes. Friends thought I was crazy saying “You're just teaching her that bad behaviour gets attention.” Nope... it may be counterintuitive, but it works like a charm. Since I've been doing this, her behaviour has really settled. She will ask me to play with her, but will patiently wait if I have to finish something first. She is much more polite, quiet, loving.
Just some thoughts. I don't mean any offence by simplifying the issue so much, or by comparing addiction issues to dealing with a toddler—kind of comparing apples to watermelons, but hopefully you follow where my thoughts were going.

I found as a mother of toddlers - little ones many moons ago...

distraction the best mechanism to battle bad behavior...
we are and remain much smarter than they.

If your little one chooses drugs in 15 years be ready for the fall of your life.
One there is no end to ... free falling... horribly suspended in time
and if you are one of the lucky ones you'll be there to catch her

pandora

peacefrompaul wrote:

pandora wrote:

will return to reply going to see grandoggies...

:thumbup:
dogs don't do drugs ... they are the easy ones

Cheeks

If your little one chooses drugs in 15 years be ready for the fall of your life.

I stopped myself when my first reaction to that was, “Of course she'll never choose drugs....I'd never let her.” I'm sure that's what every mother thinks until they are faced with a brutally different reality.
I've already lost one daughter and I don't think I could make it through a second time—especially under those circumstances.
I'm pretty set on my opinions on most of the big debatable topics—abortion, capital punishment, marijuana, euthanasia etc, etc. But I have to say I'm really up in the air on this one. I read one person's comment and think “oh yes, then we should make them legal, it will help.” Then the next comment by you makes me think, “are we crazy, why would we legalize something that destructive?”
Interesting, although heartbreaking, thread...

hedonist

I'm so sorry about the loss of your daughter, Firefox...and I'm really appreciating your open-minded contributions to this thread.

pandora

Firefox wrote:

If your little one chooses drugs in 15 years be ready for the fall of your life.

I stopped myself when my first reaction to that was, “Of course she'll never choose drugs....I'd never let her.” I'm sure that's what every mother thinks until they are faced with a brutally different reality.
I've already lost one daughter and I don't think I could make it through a second time—especially under those circumstances.
I'm pretty set on my opinions on most of the big debatable topics—abortion, capital punishment, marijuana, euthanasia etc, etc. But I have to say I'm really up in the air on this one. I read one person's comment and think “oh yes, then we should make them legal, it will help.” Then the next comment by you makes me think, “are we crazy, why would we legalize something that destructive?”
Interesting, although heartbreaking, thread...

I am sorry, my heart goes out to you ... to lose a child the greatest injustice

Cheeks

Thanks... it was a number of years ago, but just like any parent who's lost a baby or child, I'm aware of where she would be in this point in her life—my daughter would have been starting kindergarten in the fall. You know, so I think those kinds of thoughts make anyone who's lost a child to addiction even more passionate about their stance. I can understand that, perhaps only to a certain degree, but I know a mother's heartache and how you would want to fight what took your child.
As with any topic on AMT, I think it's important to consider where people are coming from and what has brought them to their conclusions, sometimes beyond the hard facts and stats.

pandora

The new educational shockers on TV and even on you tube now
when I go to find songs to post ... they are heart wrenching

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZO2Rhqj ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Irvl4pLA ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0MaGiQ2 ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssp7SkTn ... re=related





each one a beautiful child once

people can talk and debate but this is what this stuff does to peoples lives

Hugh Freaking Dillon

if the government thinks it should be able to take away the right of a person to choose how they treat their bodies, maybe they should:

-make fast food illegal
-put into law how many portions of veggies and fruit you eat per day, punishible by steamed liver
-have supervised police visits where they watch you on the treadmill for 30 minutes per day
-um, how about MAKE CIGARETTES ILLEGAL.

alcohol destroys. cigarettes kill. yet those are still legal, and promoted with loose girls in bikinis.

the only gateway is a person's personality/mental state.

Godfather.

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

if the government thinks it should be able to take away the right of a person to choose how they treat their bodies, maybe they should:

-make fast food illegal
-put into law how many portions of veggies and fruit you eat per day, punishible by steamed liver
-have supervised police visits where they watch you on the treadmill for 30 minutes per day
-um, how about MAKE CIGARETTES ILLEGAL.

alcohol destroys. cigarettes kill. yet those are still legal, and promoted with loose girls in bikinis.

the only gateway is a person's personality/mental state.

if it was only what all they do to their own bodies that might different but drug addiction and the drug world they live in also steal hurt and kill so many people that have no addiction or any affiliation with the addict or the world the users and dealers live in, you can look in the news and find robberys and murders all the time by addicts trying to feed a habbit,I have been smoking for 20 years and never killed anybody for a pack of smokes and can't think of any non drug addict smoker who has, bottom line is that drugs affect whole communitys and towns killing innocent people every day.

Godfather.

prism

Godfather. wrote:

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

if the government thinks it should be able to take away the right of a person to choose how they treat their bodies, maybe they should:

-make fast food illegal
-put into law how many portions of veggies and fruit you eat per day, punishible by steamed liver
-have supervised police visits where they watch you on the treadmill for 30 minutes per day
-um, how about MAKE CIGARETTES ILLEGAL.

alcohol destroys. cigarettes kill. yet those are still legal, and promoted with loose girls in bikinis.

the only gateway is a person's personality/mental state.

if it was only what all they do to their own bodies that might different but drug addiction and the drug world they live in also steal hurt and kill so many people that have no addiction or any affiliation with the addict or the world the users and dealers live in, you can look in the news and find robberys and murders all the time by addicts trying to feed a habbit,I have been smoking for 20 years and never killed anybody for a pack of smokes and can't think of any non drug addict smoker who has, bottom line is that drugs affect whole communitys and towns killing innocent people every day.

Godfather.

like a few have already said; making drugs legal will take away the black market with the violent cartels, gangs and killing ppl over drug turf. did prohibition of alcohol work in 1920? of course not. it produced gansters, bootlegers & turf wars to provide the alcohol the public wanted. since they made booze legal again in 1933 how many ppl have been robbed or murdered over the manufacture, sale & distrubution of alchohol? or cigarettes? when all ppl have to do is going to the store to purchase it

do alcoholics still exist...of course. still they're responsible for their actions ...toss em in jail if they drive drunk commit or a violent offense. it's up to them to get treatment, sure their needs to be more treatment centers for all substance abuse. why not build more instead of jails? then drug addicts at least have a chance of getting & staying clean.

because the war on drugs has proven a dismal failure perhaps it's time to end the prohibition of drugs and take away the criminal element...focus the billions in resources on providing treatment for addicts

pandora

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

if the government thinks it should be able to take away the right of a person to choose how they treat their bodies, maybe they should:

-make fast food illegal
-put into law how many portions of veggies and fruit you eat per day, punishible by steamed liver
-have supervised police visits where they watch you on the treadmill for 30 minutes per day
-um, how about MAKE CIGARETTES ILLEGAL.

alcohol destroys. cigarettes kill. yet those are still legal, and promoted with loose girls in bikinis.

the only gateway is a person's personality/mental state.

you speak of vices that affects one's health ... vices that are often enjoyed in a reasonable
even sensible way... vices that take decades near to a lifetime to cause death

we are talking killer drugs extremely addictive ...
drugs that take months to kill and are killing our CHILDREN! Destroying our FAMILIES!

can we use some common sense please and not compare vices to addiction

pandora

What's with this gateway crap...

I am not talking about POT I am talking about CRYSTAL METH

it will sneak up on you be your very best friend then massacre you

it is WICKED!

prism

pandora wrote:

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

if the government thinks it should be able to take away the right of a person to choose how they treat their bodies, maybe they should:

-make fast food illegal
-put into law how many portions of veggies and fruit you eat per day, punishible by steamed liver
-have supervised police visits where they watch you on the treadmill for 30 minutes per day
-um, how about MAKE CIGARETTES ILLEGAL.

alcohol destroys. cigarettes kill. yet those are still legal, and promoted with loose girls in bikinis.

the only gateway is a person's personality/mental state.

you speak of vices that affects one's health ... vices that are often enjoyed in a reasonable
even sensible way... vices that take decades near to a lifetime to cause death

we are talking killer drugs extremely addictive ...
drugs that take months to kill and are killing our CHILDREN! Destroying our FAMILIES!

can we use some common sense please and not compare vices to addiction

:roll:

i've never known anyone that OD'd on illegal drugs. (sure it happens) however ive known a few that died from prescription drugs. 1 that got shot buying painkillers. 2 people that died from alcohol poisoning. a kid that played baseball with my son died as a teen from drinking COUGH SYRUP (robotripping) do you expect the government to ban robotussin?

yet there are plenty of ppl that use hard drugs (i don't touch them) recreationally and don't become addicted... still hold down jobs etc. then there are junkies that don't OD and go on using for many years cause their familes enable then to keep using.

how about using common sense when it comes to educating kids & adults with the facts on drugs? leave behind the ridiculous rheotic and overblown dramatic lies that the govenment has drilled into sheeple and open up to reality that will actually HELP ppl to avoid or treat an addicton? wether it's alcohol, tobacco, heroin, meth, presciption opiates or fucking over the counter cough syrup....ANY substance that can be abused to cause addiction or possible death....why do you think all those things fall under "substance abuse?"

next time you get a cold you better watch out....there are KILLER drugs in your medicine cabinet