you say it's benign (and i agree) yet that is not how society views it. i had three different school aged children (from elementary to middle school) all tell me they learned in school marijuana is the most dangerous drug there is and the worst drug you could ever do. my first reaction was wtf???? what about meth?? what about crack?? what about heroin?? "no, they said marijuana was the worst"
They're going to teach them that in the schools because in most cases the government sets the curriculum...and that's what the government wants to brain wash each generation into believing...from everything I've read and watched it might just be the most useful drug we can ingest.
I'm pretty sure big pharma has lined the pockets of politicians to keep it illegal...and that is so sad...we've had more drugstore robberies in the last 2-3 years just for oxycontin, which appears to be readily available from doctors these days and highly addictive.
i've known of several doctors people went to to get all sorts of drugs, all they had to do was pay for the visit (and if you are a woman you have to be given a breast exam each time).....want xanax or valium? just say you have social anxiety. want oxycontin, vicodin or something similar? just sat say you get back aches.
let's not even get into pill farms.....
from 98-11 big pharma/health care products have spent $2,322,105,797 lobbying the us government, just in 2011 they spent $237,504,544, pfizer spent $12,440,000 themselves in 2011
Not surprised...yet the health benefits from marijuana are numerous...all those ailments you described can be treated with marijuana and no side effects.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
I'm sorry that is writing off another human being.
We all have choices its the plan but so is caring enough for others.
Being the old lady I am I often think about the world after my exit,
when one sees mortality in years not decades it can change the perspective
one once had.
I think what's next...
legalized hunting of people perhaps :?
I mean that which is hunted still made the choice. For whatever reward.
Would a society say that too is ok?
allowing another human being to hunt down and kill another because
it is their choices.
Perhaps only the depraved society would allow this
That is exactly what pushers do, they hunt down our children and they kill them,
long before they have mature reason to make a life changing, life losing decision.
Hold a person in your arms ravaged by these kinds of drugs, your mother, your father,
brother, sister, best friend... CHILD and you make a choice.
It would be my choice to try to save them and live in a society that would never condone
the use Crystal Meth.
War is hunting people is it not?
I have three friends that were addicted to meth. It destroyed their lives and they all went and got treatment. Treatment essentially is the answer. It's not that hard of a task to get the drug and it's illegal. I certainly don't condone the use of it but humans have free will. Certainly we need restrictions but this war on drugs has not been a restriction that has benefited our society simply because it is not effective. I am all for teaching children about the dangers of these powerful and terrible substances but I ultimately think it is your decision about what you do with your own body whether that be doing drugs or getting an abortion. I I guess I personally have more faith in mankind to make the right decision about their own lives than many of us do.
Thank you for your response
no war is not hunting people for pleasure
to legalize is to condone the use ...
this the message the society in place sends
like abortion, like capital punishment, when something is legal it says
society agrees with the practice/use of... like when marijuana is legalized
that is the society accepting the use of for it's intended purpose.
Because this war on drugs is less than efficient a society doesn't swing it to no war on drugs
it looks for ways to fix the problem ...this is common sense.
We can find many common sense answers to the problems we have
without condoning the use of hard drugs..
Just to help you understand though and with great respect for what you have experienced
a friend is nothing like a child... the realm of difference can be unimaginable until
you experience a lifetime with a child only to lose them to drugs.
Common sense is to just not do the drug. I condone people to do as they wish to their body. I'm sorry I just can't agree with you on this, I see it differently and I'm surely in the minority.
But what about Portugal? They decriminalized and their society hasn't fallen into the abyss:
Modern day drug prohibtion can be paralled with the alcohol prohibition in the United States. When alcohol was outlawed far more people were negatively affected than helped because of the foothold the mafia was able to maintain in the black market. Our modern day mafia is the Mexican drug cartels and people every day are murdered in the name of our so called war on drugs. You decriminalize drugs and you have effectively removed any and all power that these cartels have as there would no longer be the need for a drug black market. For a good look at what happens when drugs are decriminalized, Portugal is a good case to review.
Godfather mentioned earlier in this thread that addicts steal from their own families to fuel their addictions. Well, people wouldn't be afraid of hiding and stealing to fuel their habit if they could openly get treatment and rehabilitation for it. Furthermore, open access to these drugs in the meantime would reduce drug related crimes greatly. Think about it, you have someone who is already addicted to hard drugs. If you believe that they will do anything to get their hands on more, don't you think that if it was more easily accessible the amount of violence and theft that already occurs would decrease? There wouldn't be much of a place for it.
The main point of all this is, if someone is going to do drugs they are making that personal choice themselves. As is obvious today, being against the law does not stop this from happening. Too many people here act like decriminalizing drugs means a boatload of people will all of a sudden take up using hard drugs. That is simply not true and is insulting the intelligence of many by saying they are too stupid and irresponsible to make those choices for themselves.
"If we are allowed to deal with our eternity and all that we believe in spiritually, and if we're allowed to read any book that we want under freedom of speech, why is it we can't put into our body whatever we want?"
It always kind of makes me half laugh/half frown when discussion of legalizing drugs turns to marijuana. Of course marijuana should be legal but it's so benign compared to meth or heroin or, heck, even booze. It's a bit like talking about weather kick boxing should be legal and all of the sudden everybody is saying, "Damn it! We need to legalize tennis! Grrr!!!"
you say it's benign (and i agree) yet that is not how society views it. i had three different school aged children (from elementary to middle school) all tell me they learned in school marijuana is the most dangerous drug there is and the worst drug you could ever do. my first reaction was wtf???? what about meth?? what about crack?? what about heroin?? "no, they said marijuana was the worst"
Yeah, there's so much disinformation in schools. (Off subject but related to WTF is going on in our schools, we had a customer ask for a book on Calvin Coolidge because his teacher told him to do a report on Coolidge. It sounded more like a punishment than a learning experience.)
I'm not saying kids should be taught The Pleasures of Pot 101, but to load them with all this disinformation is just wrong.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
"Try to not spook the horse."
-Neil Young
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,426
I would guess instead about fighting about drugs. I myself would find out why people are medicating themselves legally and illegally. Make the change from there.
Is it society? ummm... why yes.
Excellent point!! Funny and pathetic how in our society we tend to look at problems in a sort of reverse polarity way- seeing the negative of a photograph instead of the real image.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I would guess instead about fighting about drugs. I myself would find out why people are medicating themselves legally and illegally. Make the change from there.
Is it society? ummm... why yes.
Excellent point!! Funny and pathetic how in our society we tend to look at problems in a sort of reverse polarity way- seeing the negative of a photograph instead of the real image.
Right what is the overall root of the problems which are at hand. I find it funny how we tend to micromanage everyone but in the micromanaging were trying to fit so many millions of people into the micromanging cookie cutter box. But then we are not,therefore, simply macromanaging the overall basic structure in which the systems are in place which causes all the failures in the first place. Make sense?
these drugs are tantalizing ... oooo num num good ...
no one here is accounting for this fact and that addiction is never part of any person's plan
but it is bound to happen
for this reason alone hard drugs should never be legalized
common sense may be to not experiment ("just don't take the drug")
that is not the nature of human beings though
we are curious, adventurous, impulsive, insatiable, pleasure seeking, fun loving,
I could go on ...
this not even accounting for the very young who's brains do not understand
consequence until age 25
again never the plan to grow up to be an addict
to legalize is to condone
I have a hard time with a Doctor of Medicine condoning legalization
I bet he never held his child while they were dying from a drug overdose
no I think he was delivering a baby ... that's a happy place
these drugs are tantalizing ... oooo num num good ...
no one here is accounting for this fact and that addiction is never part of any person's plan
but it is bound to happen
for this reason alone hard drugs should never be legalized
common sense may be to not experiment ("just don't take the drug")
that is not the nature of human beings though
we are curious, adventurous, impulsive, insatiable, pleasure seeking, fun loving,
I could go on ...
this not even accounting for the very young who's brains do not understand
consequence until age 25
again never the plan to grow up to be an addict
to legalize is to condone
I have a hard time with a Doctor of Medicine condoning legalization
I bet he never held his child while they were dying from a drug overdose
no I think he was delivering a baby ... that's a happy place
I have a hard time with people trying to force their morals and beliefs on others.
these drugs are tantalizing ... oooo num num good ...
no one here is accounting for this fact and that addiction is never part of any person's plan
but it is bound to happen
for this reason alone hard drugs should never be legalized
common sense may be to not experiment ("just don't take the drug")
that is not the nature of human beings though
we are curious, adventurous, impulsive, insatiable, pleasure seeking, fun loving,
I could go on ...
this not even accounting for the very young who's brains do not understand
consequence until age 25
again never the plan to grow up to be an addict
to legalize is to condone
I have a hard time with a Doctor of Medicine condoning legalization
I bet he never held his child while they were dying from a drug overdose
no I think he was delivering a baby ... that's a happy place
I have a hard time with people trying to force their morals and beliefs on others.
The ends do not justify the means. Educating people and providing people treatment is the answer. Not forcing others to adhere to your beliefs.
You have a hard time watching people addicted to drugs die? Well what about the countless people murdered over the black market drug trade? It's okay for them to die so long as we save people from themselves?
legal or not I would not do them...wouldn't have...don't really like weed, and I am not into hallucinating...
I would also educate my family not to do them...but it is their choice for themselves, not mine...i can only telll them the consequences of their actions with me.
but that doesn't give me the right to stop someone else,
or to keep the medical uses of Marijuana from people who need them.
Why do people feel the need to control others they have never and will never meet?
Can you honestly call the war on drugs a success?
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
The ends do not justify the means. Educating people and providing people treatment is the answer. Not forcing others to adhere to your beliefs.
You have a hard time watching people addicted to drugs die? Well what about the countless people murdered over the black market drug trade? It's okay for them to die so long as we save people from themselves?
Like I said, the ends do not justify the means.
My belief is do not legalize drugs...
of course educate, provide treatment, that is common sense, no punishment for those who use,
tougher laws on those trafficking
this is common sense
your answer is to condone killer drugs mine is to try to eliminate them
and help those addicted and educate those who have not yet fallen prey.
A dead child today may have wished they would have adhered to different beliefs
legal or not I would not do them...wouldn't have...don't really like weed, and I am not into hallucinating...
I would also educate my family not to do them...but it is their choice for themselves, not mine...i can only telll them the consequences of their actions with me.
but that doesn't give me the right to stop someone else,
or to keep the medical uses of Marijuana from people who need them.
Why do people feel the need to control others they have never and will never meet?
Can you honestly call the war on drugs a success?
And yes to legalize is to condone...
it is a society that says it agrees with the practice or use as in abortion and
capital punishment as I mentioned before.
Please can we NOT talk about POT I am talking about CRYSTAL METH!
talking about them in the same breath... as though they are the same is ridiculous!
I am talking about countless children dying from hard drugs.
I care ... call me super silly...
and please don't tell me that adorable child in your avatar will
not use hard drugs just because you educate them... you have no idea.
And tell me in 15 years how that works
that is if your child chooses to be an addict that will be dandy with you
you will just tell them the consequences ... would that be while you are holding them dying?
I'm sorry that is writing off another human being.
We all have choices its the plan but so is caring enough for others.
Being the old lady I am I often think about the world after my exit,
when one sees mortality in years not decades it can change the perspective
one once had.
I think what's next...
legalized hunting of people perhaps :?
I mean that which is hunted still made the choice. For whatever reward.
Would a society say that too is ok?
allowing another human being to hunt down and kill another because
it is their choices.
Perhaps only the depraved society would allow this
That is exactly what pushers do, they hunt down our children and they kill them,
long before they have mature reason to make a life changing, life losing decision.
Hold a person in your arms ravaged by these kinds of drugs, your mother, your father,
brother, sister, best friend... CHILD and you make a choice.
It would be my choice to try to save them and live in a society that would never condone
the use Crystal Meth.
It is NOT writing off another human being…that’s the fundamental flaw in your argument, and the part that I find offensive…again, you’re inferring that your method of helping people is MORALLY SUPERIOR to other methods. Saying it's writing someone off suggests that people who support reforms are giving up, which is completely contrary to what is happening - people are looking for better ways to help.
I'll say it again: increased penalties for traffickers HURTS users as much or more than dealers…think about this: dealers are some of the staunchest proponents of decriminalization over legalization. While still a step in the right direction, it either has no effect, or a positive one on their bottom line, as they can raise prices - justified by increased risk.
Legal consequence is NOT a deterrent, the war on drugs has proven this ad nauseum, a child can see that…
Even if the black market is focused only on money, and not human interest (hello capitalism)…dealers do most definitely do NOT “hunt down our children and…kill them” Such over the top hyperbole it’s laughable. I guarantee you 99.9% of dealers have NEVER approached a stranger in an attempt to sell them drugs (let alone 'hunt them down'). THEY get approached by ‘our children’, and asked for them. What makes you think anything will change with stiffer penalties? Three strikes, mandatory minimums etc have done NOTHING to improve the situation, only made it worse. But keep trying to shift the blame, lookin for a scapegoat, no worries.
I say this without a touch of hyperbole of my own: Your drugs
>human hunting argument is the most inane slippery slope statement I’ve ever seen.
I used a smilie because I am proud and happy to be Godfather's friend ...
you are making this very negative and about you :?
You know where I stand I know where you do
time will tell if you will ever change how you feel about this
if you will ever hold your child on the brink of death, bargaining the devil himself.
I know what brings me to where I am and I know I will never change my mind
so we will agree to disagree
Making this negative? You’re going for shock value with extreme-case pictures, using over the top slippery slope arguments and hyperbole, making statements of moral superiority etc to discredit my stance…yet you accuse me of negativity? :roll:
You accuse me of making it about me, then follow with a personal statement of your own (more stuff about saving the kids, as if I don’t care about my own, and will come around, if I find myself with a kid in that situation - I guess you mean instead of less important people like my first love, former best friend, mother of my kids etc). So typical. I explained my background on the topic in some detail in response to Godfather doing the same, and you have alluded to your own past experiences (albeit vaguely) in every post in this thread…so….how am I making it about me, any more than you or your friend? More hypocrisy….
And lets be clear: I’m not trying to change your mind. I couldn’t care less about your opinion, individually. You admit to a rigid, unyielding belief structure, so I have no problem 'writing you off'.....But your opinions give me the opportunity to point out flaws in the prohibitionist stance, in an attempt to get people with open minds to think about other ways to improve the situation…as evidenced in this thread, it’s working. So thanks.
My belief is do not legalize drugs...
of course educate, provide treatment, that is common sense, no punishment for those who use,
tougher laws on those trafficking
this is common sense
your answer is to condone killer drugs mine is to try to eliminate them
and help those addicted and educate those who have not fallen prey yet.
A dead child today may have wished they would have adhered to different beliefs
Very nice of you, to put words in my mouth. Being for the decriminalization of drugs does not de facto condone drugs.
You speak of common sense and yet it appears that you are not applying any to this situation. Common sense dictactes that you yourself do not know what is best for every single person.
Common sense dictates that these substances are already illegal and yet people are still using.
Common sense dictates that since these substances are already illegal and there is an apparent market for the acquisition of these substances that there will also be a supplier.
Common sense dictates that since there are suppliers doing this against the law that they necessarily won't follow other laws themselves and in order to further profit from the black market these same suppliers are willing to kill off the competition.
A dead child today may have wished they would have adhered to different beliefs but it is not my place nor your place or anyone's place to make that choice for them. Your whole philosophy ignores the fact that even if users aren't the ones targeted by the "law" and it is only the traffickers, what are those users going to do once their supply is cut off completely? You act like trafficking of drugs and the creation of drugs is something that can be eradicated comletely when that is not the case.
The ends do not justify the means. Educating people and providing people treatment is the answer. Not forcing others to adhere to your beliefs.
You have a hard time watching people addicted to drugs die? Well what about the countless people murdered over the black market drug trade? It's okay for them to die so long as we save people from themselves?
Like I said, the ends do not justify the means.
A dead child today may have wished they would have adhered to different beliefs
war has collateral damage and casualties. The war on drugs is no different.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
legal or not I would not do them...wouldn't have...don't really like weed, and I am not into hallucinating...
I would also educate my family not to do them...but it is their choice for themselves, not mine...i can only telll them the consequences of their actions with me.
but that doesn't give me the right to stop someone else,
or to keep the medical uses of Marijuana from people who need them.
Why do people feel the need to control others they have never and will never meet?
Can you honestly call the war on drugs a success?
And yes to legalize is to condone...
it is a society that says it agrees with the practice or use as in abortion and
capital punishment as I mentioned before.
Please can we NOT talk about POT I am talking about CRYSTAL METH!
talking about them in the same breath... as though they are the same is ridiculous!
I am talking about countless children dying from hard drugs.
I care ... call me super silly...
and please don't tell me that adorable child in your avatar will
not use hard drugs just because you educate them... you have no idea.
And tell me in 15 years how that works
that is if your child chooses to be an addict that will be dandy with you
you will just tell them the consequences ... would that be while you are holding them dying?
And yes to legalize is to condone...
it is a society that says it agrees with the practice or use as in abortion and
capital punishment as I mentioned before.
Pandora, I respect your opinion, but the above is non-sense.
it isn't the same thing to say someone CAN legally do drugs and someone SHOULD legally do drugs.
that is the difference between legalizing and condoning.
Liberty has its pitfalls...people having choice being one of them...
People die and live through all sorts of choices everyday...you can't save everyone, nor should you try...The people the government, and you, should worry about are the ones who CHOOSE to get clean if the drugs have taken over...
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
I think it may help to remind people that we are ultimately all on the same side... right? We all want to prevent other love ones from being affected by or lost to addiction. Yes?
Having read some of the stories on here and understanding that some of you have lost and been hurt more than anyone can fully comprehend, I can see why many would want to fight this war on drugs full force. Until I began reading this thread and the original article, I would never have thought legalizing hard drugs would be something rational people would consider. I would have hoped more funds would go to treatment and support, but would never have given much thought to the implication and effect of legalization. I'm not saying I'm totally for it, I'm still on the fence but with an open mind.
Billions of dollars has been spent trying to fight the drug war.... I don't know any actual stats, but it seems to be a loosing battle. So when do you decide that one strategy isn't working and switch tactics?
I don't know enough about how the drug trade/black market works to really contribute in that area, but have been thinking about this analogy...
I'm a relatively new mom. My daughter is two and is not an easy child. She is very active, very smart, talks as well as most 4 year olds, but can be a handful. She climbs, she yells, she runs, she's out right defiant at times.... As I was taught by my parents, I tried the regular hard discipline of time outs, yelling and even a spanking (although I couldn't bring myself to actually hurt her, so she just laughed at me). Nothing worked. I know she's just having fun, but I don't want to see her break her arm when she falls over the railing or something. I want to protect her—not by taking away her choices, but trying to prevent a hard fall.
So, I tried something new. When she is acting up, I stop what I'm doing and I get down on the floor and play with her for ten or 15 minutes. Friends thought I was crazy saying “You're just teaching her that bad behaviour gets attention.” Nope... it may be counterintuitive, but it works like a charm. Since I've been doing this, her behaviour has really settled. She will ask me to play with her, but will patiently wait if I have to finish something first. She is much more polite, quiet, loving.
Just some thoughts. I don't mean any offence by simplifying the issue so much, or by comparing addiction issues to dealing with a toddler—kind of comparing apples to watermelons, but hopefully you follow where my thoughts were going.
I'm sorry that is writing off another human being.
We all have choices its the plan but so is caring enough for others.
Being the old lady I am I often think about the world after my exit,
when one sees mortality in years not decades it can change the perspective
one once had.
I think what's next...
legalized hunting of people perhaps :?
I mean that which is hunted still made the choice. For whatever reward.
Would a society say that too is ok?
allowing another human being to hunt down and kill another because
it is their choices.
Perhaps only the depraved society would allow this
That is exactly what pushers do, they hunt down our children and they kill them,
long before they have mature reason to make a life changing, life losing decision.
Hold a person in your arms ravaged by these kinds of drugs, your mother, your father,
brother, sister, best friend... CHILD and you make a choice.
It would be my choice to try to save them and live in a society that would never condone
the use Crystal Meth.
It is NOT writing off another human being…that’s the fundamental flaw in your argument, and the part that I find offensive…again, you’re inferring that your method of helping people is MORALLY SUPERIOR to other methods. Saying it's writing someone off suggests that people who support reforms are giving up, which is completely contrary to what is happening - people are looking for better ways to help.
I'll say it again: increased penalties for traffickers HURTS users as much or more than dealers…think about this: dealers are some of the staunchest proponents of decriminalization over legalization. While still a step in the right direction, it either has no effect, or a positive one on their bottom line, as they can raise prices - justified by increased risk.
Legal consequence is NOT a deterrent, the war on drugs has proven this ad nauseum, a child can see that…
Even if the black market is focused only on money, and not human interest (hello capitalism)…dealers do most definitely do NOT “hunt down our children and…kill them” Such over the top hyperbole it’s laughable. I guarantee you 99.9% of dealers have NEVER approached a stranger in an attempt to sell them drugs (let alone 'hunt them down'). THEY get approached by ‘our children’, and asked for them. What makes you think anything will change with stiffer penalties? Three strikes, mandatory minimums etc have done NOTHING to improve the situation, only made it worse. But keep trying to shift the blame, lookin for a scapegoat, no worries.
I say this without a touch of hyperbole of my own: Your drugs
>human hunting argument is the most inane slippery slope statement I’ve ever seen.
I used a smilie because I am proud and happy to be Godfather's friend ...
you are making this very negative and about you :?
You know where I stand I know where you do
time will tell if you will ever change how you feel about this
if you will ever hold your child on the brink of death, bargaining the devil himself.
I know what brings me to where I am and I know I will never change my mind
so we will agree to disagree
Making this negative? You’re going for shock value with extreme-case pictures, using over the top slippery slope arguments and hyperbole, making statements of moral superiority etc to discredit my stance…yet you accuse me of negativity? :roll:
You accuse me of making it about me, then follow with a personal statement of your own (more stuff about saving the kids, as if I don’t care about my own, and will come around, if I find myself with a kid in that situation - I guess you mean instead of less important people like my first love, former best friend, mother of my kids etc). So typical. I explained my background on the topic in some detail in response to Godfather doing the same, and you have alluded to your own past experiences (albeit vaguely) in every post in this thread…so….how am I making it about me, any more than you or your friend? More hypocrisy….
And lets be clear: I’m not trying to change your mind. I couldn’t care less about your opinion, individually. You admit to a rigid, unyielding belief structure, so I have no problem 'writing you off'.....But your opinions give me the opportunity to point out flaws in the prohibitionist stance, in an attempt to get people with open minds to think about other ways to improve the situation…as evidenced in this thread, it’s working. So thanks.
this post of mine was not directed at you though :?
in the post directed to you ...
as far as me saying it was about you I meant this quote of yours
Drowned Out wrote:
And you gave me shit about using the emoticon before .....gotta wonder if that smiley is a manifestation of the pleasure you take in antagonizing me.Such disrespect, as you would lecture...
sounds all about you ... actually it might sound a little paranoid
now that I reread it
when I was just happy to be considered a friend of Godfathers, why the smilie,
I was actually touched, my heart did a little skip a beat.
One thing you can count on with me I take no pleasure in antagonizing anyone
don't play like that ... I am honest.
And it was also pretty negative, which is your dislike for me showing... therefore not a reasoned debate to take seriously
I'm all for change to help anyway we can short of legalizing killer drugs
I'm all for saving the children where the majority of drug abuse starts
but legalizing killer drugs is insanity and hopefully something we will never see
I'd rather see drug dealers get capital punishment first and I am against the death penalty
and I will say one more time the loss of any loved one
is not like that of your own child ... but you already know that
legal or not I would not do them...wouldn't have...don't really like weed, and I am not into hallucinating...
I would also educate my family not to do them...but it is their choice for themselves, not mine...i can only telll them the consequences of their actions with me.
but that doesn't give me the right to stop someone else,
or to keep the medical uses of Marijuana from people who need them.
Why do people feel the need to control others they have never and will never meet?
Can you honestly call the war on drugs a success?
And yes to legalize is to condone...
it is a society that says it agrees with the practice or use as in abortion and
capital punishment as I mentioned before.
Please can we NOT talk about POT I am talking about CRYSTAL METH!
talking about them in the same breath... as though they are the same is ridiculous!
I am talking about countless children dying from hard drugs.
I care ... call me super silly...
and please don't tell me that adorable child in your avatar will
not use hard drugs just because you educate them... you have no idea.
And tell me in 15 years how that works
that is if your child chooses to be an addict that will be dandy with you
you will just tell them the consequences ... would that be while you are holding them dying?
And yes to legalize is to condone...
it is a society that says it agrees with the practice or use as in abortion and
capital punishment as I mentioned before.
Pandora, I respect your opinion, but the above is non-sense.
it isn't the same thing to say someone CAN legally do drugs and someone SHOULD legally do drugs.
that is the difference between legalizing and condoning.
Liberty has its pitfalls...people having choice being one of them...
People die and live through all sorts of choices everyday...you can't save everyone, nor should you try...The people the government, and you, should worry about are the ones who CHOOSE to get clean if the drugs have taken over...
a little fluff cut that's ok ... that can be your strategy sometimes
We can go around on this but society and it's chosen laws effects people's behavior.
We choose the laws we do because the majority believe in the need or the practice
and it sends a message that something is either accepted or it is not depending on the law.
As an adult in this society it is my duty to protect the children, not only my duty
everyone's duty. It is society's duty. This why we have laws protecting them.
To legalize killer drugs, drugs that take a life within months of use,
would be irresponsible.
As far as saving everyone ... we are not talking about vices, we are talking about
life and death substances.
Alcohol, Weed, Cigs, Food ...
these are ingestibles that are vices and may affect your health negatively over a lifetime.
We are talking killer drugs ... dead soon. Beautiful healthy promising bright loving
and loved child... dead.
We have drugs/ foods banned everyday when found to be dangerous and I think most people
are very glad of that.
Well, it is found that killer drugs are bad for our kids... hell they are bad for everyone and
for our society.
They should be treated as the dangerous substances they are... and remain illegal.
I think it may help to remind people that we are ultimately all on the same side... right? We all want to prevent other love ones from being affected by or lost to addiction. Yes?
Having read some of the stories on here and understanding that some of you have lost and been hurt more than anyone can fully comprehend, I can see why many would want to fight this war on drugs full force. Until I began reading this thread and the original article, I would never have thought legalizing hard drugs would be something rational people would consider. I would have hoped more funds would go to treatment and support, but would never have given much thought to the implication and effect of legalization. I'm not saying I'm totally for it, I'm still on the fence but with an open mind.
Billions of dollars has been spent trying to fight the drug war.... I don't know any actual stats, but it seems to be a loosing battle. So when do you decide that one strategy isn't working and switch tactics?
I don't know enough about how the drug trade/black market works to really contribute in that area, but have been thinking about this analogy...
I'm a relatively new mom. My daughter is two and is not an easy child. She is very active, very smart, talks as well as most 4 year olds, but can be a handful. She climbs, she yells, she runs, she's out right defiant at times.... As I was taught by my parents, I tried the regular hard discipline of time outs, yelling and even a spanking (although I couldn't bring myself to actually hurt her, so she just laughed at me). Nothing worked. I know she's just having fun, but I don't want to see her break her arm when she falls over the railing or something. I want to protect her—not by taking away her choices, but trying to prevent a hard fall.
So, I tried something new. When she is acting up, I stop what I'm doing and I get down on the floor and play with her for ten or 15 minutes. Friends thought I was crazy saying “You're just teaching her that bad behaviour gets attention.” Nope... it may be counterintuitive, but it works like a charm. Since I've been doing this, her behaviour has really settled. She will ask me to play with her, but will patiently wait if I have to finish something first. She is much more polite, quiet, loving.
Just some thoughts. I don't mean any offence by simplifying the issue so much, or by comparing addiction issues to dealing with a toddler—kind of comparing apples to watermelons, but hopefully you follow where my thoughts were going.
I found as a mother of toddlers - little ones many moons ago...
distraction the best mechanism to battle bad behavior...
we are and remain much smarter than they.
If your little one chooses drugs in 15 years be ready for the fall of your life.
One there is no end to ... free falling... horribly suspended in time
and if you are one of the lucky ones you'll be there to catch her
If your little one chooses drugs in 15 years be ready for the fall of your life.
I stopped myself when my first reaction to that was, “Of course she'll never choose drugs....I'd never let her.” I'm sure that's what every mother thinks until they are faced with a brutally different reality.
I've already lost one daughter and I don't think I could make it through a second time—especially under those circumstances.
I'm pretty set on my opinions on most of the big debatable topics—abortion, capital punishment, marijuana, euthanasia etc, etc. But I have to say I'm really up in the air on this one. I read one person's comment and think “oh yes, then we should make them legal, it will help.” Then the next comment by you makes me think, “are we crazy, why would we legalize something that destructive?”
Interesting, although heartbreaking, thread...
Comments
Not surprised...yet the health benefits from marijuana are numerous...all those ailments you described can be treated with marijuana and no side effects.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Common sense is to just not do the drug. I condone people to do as they wish to their body. I'm sorry I just can't agree with you on this, I see it differently and I'm surely in the minority.
Modern day drug prohibtion can be paralled with the alcohol prohibition in the United States. When alcohol was outlawed far more people were negatively affected than helped because of the foothold the mafia was able to maintain in the black market. Our modern day mafia is the Mexican drug cartels and people every day are murdered in the name of our so called war on drugs. You decriminalize drugs and you have effectively removed any and all power that these cartels have as there would no longer be the need for a drug black market. For a good look at what happens when drugs are decriminalized, Portugal is a good case to review.
http://www.tomfeiling.com/archive/decri ... rtugal.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal
Godfather mentioned earlier in this thread that addicts steal from their own families to fuel their addictions. Well, people wouldn't be afraid of hiding and stealing to fuel their habit if they could openly get treatment and rehabilitation for it. Furthermore, open access to these drugs in the meantime would reduce drug related crimes greatly. Think about it, you have someone who is already addicted to hard drugs. If you believe that they will do anything to get their hands on more, don't you think that if it was more easily accessible the amount of violence and theft that already occurs would decrease? There wouldn't be much of a place for it.
The main point of all this is, if someone is going to do drugs they are making that personal choice themselves. As is obvious today, being against the law does not stop this from happening. Too many people here act like decriminalizing drugs means a boatload of people will all of a sudden take up using hard drugs. That is simply not true and is insulting the intelligence of many by saying they are too stupid and irresponsible to make those choices for themselves.
Yeah, there's so much disinformation in schools. (Off subject but related to WTF is going on in our schools, we had a customer ask for a book on Calvin Coolidge because his teacher told him to do a report on Coolidge. It sounded more like a punishment than a learning experience.)
I'm not saying kids should be taught The Pleasures of Pot 101, but to load them with all this disinformation is just wrong.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
no one here is accounting for this fact and that addiction is never part of any person's plan
but it is bound to happen
for this reason alone hard drugs should never be legalized
common sense may be to not experiment ("just don't take the drug")
that is not the nature of human beings though
we are curious, adventurous, impulsive, insatiable, pleasure seeking, fun loving,
I could go on ...
this not even accounting for the very young who's brains do not understand
consequence until age 25
again never the plan to grow up to be an addict
to legalize is to condone
I have a hard time with a Doctor of Medicine condoning legalization
I bet he never held his child while they were dying from a drug overdose
no I think he was delivering a baby ... that's a happy place
Who says nuggets have to be made out of gold?
I have a hard time with people trying to force their morals and beliefs on others.
The ends do not justify the means. Educating people and providing people treatment is the answer. Not forcing others to adhere to your beliefs.
You have a hard time watching people addicted to drugs die? Well what about the countless people murdered over the black market drug trade? It's okay for them to die so long as we save people from themselves?
Like I said, the ends do not justify the means.
that isn't true.
legal or not I would not do them...wouldn't have...don't really like weed, and I am not into hallucinating...
I would also educate my family not to do them...but it is their choice for themselves, not mine...i can only telll them the consequences of their actions with me.
but that doesn't give me the right to stop someone else,
or to keep the medical uses of Marijuana from people who need them.
Why do people feel the need to control others they have never and will never meet?
Can you honestly call the war on drugs a success?
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
of course educate, provide treatment, that is common sense, no punishment for those who use,
tougher laws on those trafficking
this is common sense
your answer is to condone killer drugs mine is to try to eliminate them
and help those addicted and educate those who have not yet fallen prey.
A dead child today may have wished they would have adhered to different beliefs
I understand your children thing. Excellent appeal to Pathos.
And yes to legalize is to condone...
it is a society that says it agrees with the practice or use as in abortion and
capital punishment as I mentioned before.
Please can we NOT talk about POT I am talking about CRYSTAL METH!
talking about them in the same breath... as though they are the same is ridiculous!
I am talking about countless children dying from hard drugs.
I care ... call me super silly...
and please don't tell me that adorable child in your avatar will
not use hard drugs just because you educate them... you have no idea.
And tell me in 15 years how that works
that is if your child chooses to be an addict that will be dandy with you
you will just tell them the consequences ... would that be while you are holding them dying?
It is NOT writing off another human being…that’s the fundamental flaw in your argument, and the part that I find offensive…again, you’re inferring that your method of helping people is MORALLY SUPERIOR to other methods. Saying it's writing someone off suggests that people who support reforms are giving up, which is completely contrary to what is happening - people are looking for better ways to help.
I'll say it again: increased penalties for traffickers HURTS users as much or more than dealers…think about this: dealers are some of the staunchest proponents of decriminalization over legalization. While still a step in the right direction, it either has no effect, or a positive one on their bottom line, as they can raise prices - justified by increased risk.
Legal consequence is NOT a deterrent, the war on drugs has proven this ad nauseum, a child can see that…
Even if the black market is focused only on money, and not human interest (hello capitalism)…dealers do most definitely do NOT “hunt down our children and…kill them”
I say this without a touch of hyperbole of my own: Your drugs
>human hunting argument is the most inane slippery slope statement I’ve ever seen.
Making this negative? You’re going for shock value with extreme-case pictures, using over the top slippery slope arguments and hyperbole, making statements of moral superiority etc to discredit my stance…yet you accuse me of negativity? :roll:
You accuse me of making it about me, then follow with a personal statement of your own (more stuff about saving the kids, as if I don’t care about my own, and will come around, if I find myself with a kid in that situation - I guess you mean instead of less important people like my first love, former best friend, mother of my kids etc). So typical. I explained my background on the topic in some detail in response to Godfather doing the same, and you have alluded to your own past experiences (albeit vaguely) in every post in this thread…so….how am I making it about me, any more than you or your friend? More hypocrisy….
And lets be clear: I’m not trying to change your mind. I couldn’t care less about your opinion, individually. You admit to a rigid, unyielding belief structure, so I have no problem 'writing you off'.....But your opinions give me the opportunity to point out flaws in the prohibitionist stance, in an attempt to get people with open minds to think about other ways to improve the situation…as evidenced in this thread, it’s working. So thanks.
Very nice of you, to put words in my mouth. Being for the decriminalization of drugs does not de facto condone drugs.
You speak of common sense and yet it appears that you are not applying any to this situation. Common sense dictactes that you yourself do not know what is best for every single person.
Common sense dictates that these substances are already illegal and yet people are still using.
Common sense dictates that since these substances are already illegal and there is an apparent market for the acquisition of these substances that there will also be a supplier.
Common sense dictates that since there are suppliers doing this against the law that they necessarily won't follow other laws themselves and in order to further profit from the black market these same suppliers are willing to kill off the competition.
A dead child today may have wished they would have adhered to different beliefs but it is not my place nor your place or anyone's place to make that choice for them. Your whole philosophy ignores the fact that even if users aren't the ones targeted by the "law" and it is only the traffickers, what are those users going to do once their supply is cut off completely? You act like trafficking of drugs and the creation of drugs is something that can be eradicated comletely when that is not the case.
war has collateral damage and casualties. The war on drugs is no different.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
we might as well blow the world up ... I almost said the b- word
And yes to legalize is to condone...
it is a society that says it agrees with the practice or use as in abortion and
capital punishment as I mentioned before.
Pandora, I respect your opinion, but the above is non-sense.
it isn't the same thing to say someone CAN legally do drugs and someone SHOULD legally do drugs.
that is the difference between legalizing and condoning.
Liberty has its pitfalls...people having choice being one of them...
People die and live through all sorts of choices everyday...you can't save everyone, nor should you try...The people the government, and you, should worry about are the ones who CHOOSE to get clean if the drugs have taken over...
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Having read some of the stories on here and understanding that some of you have lost and been hurt more than anyone can fully comprehend, I can see why many would want to fight this war on drugs full force. Until I began reading this thread and the original article, I would never have thought legalizing hard drugs would be something rational people would consider. I would have hoped more funds would go to treatment and support, but would never have given much thought to the implication and effect of legalization. I'm not saying I'm totally for it, I'm still on the fence but with an open mind.
Billions of dollars has been spent trying to fight the drug war.... I don't know any actual stats, but it seems to be a loosing battle. So when do you decide that one strategy isn't working and switch tactics?
I don't know enough about how the drug trade/black market works to really contribute in that area, but have been thinking about this analogy...
I'm a relatively new mom. My daughter is two and is not an easy child. She is very active, very smart, talks as well as most 4 year olds, but can be a handful. She climbs, she yells, she runs, she's out right defiant at times.... As I was taught by my parents, I tried the regular hard discipline of time outs, yelling and even a spanking (although I couldn't bring myself to actually hurt her, so she just laughed at me). Nothing worked. I know she's just having fun, but I don't want to see her break her arm when she falls over the railing or something. I want to protect her—not by taking away her choices, but trying to prevent a hard fall.
So, I tried something new. When she is acting up, I stop what I'm doing and I get down on the floor and play with her for ten or 15 minutes. Friends thought I was crazy saying “You're just teaching her that bad behaviour gets attention.” Nope... it may be counterintuitive, but it works like a charm. Since I've been doing this, her behaviour has really settled. She will ask me to play with her, but will patiently wait if I have to finish something first. She is much more polite, quiet, loving.
Just some thoughts. I don't mean any offence by simplifying the issue so much, or by comparing addiction issues to dealing with a toddler—kind of comparing apples to watermelons, but hopefully you follow where my thoughts were going.
in the post directed to you ...
as far as me saying it was about you I meant this quote of yours
sounds all about you ... actually it might sound a little paranoid
now that I reread it
when I was just happy to be considered a friend of Godfathers, why the smilie,
I was actually touched, my heart did a little skip a beat.
One thing you can count on with me I take no pleasure in antagonizing anyone
don't play like that ... I am honest.
And it was also pretty negative, which is your dislike for me showing...
therefore not a reasoned debate to take seriously
I'm all for change to help anyway we can short of legalizing killer drugs
I'm all for saving the children where the majority of drug abuse starts
but legalizing killer drugs is insanity and hopefully something we will never see
I'd rather see drug dealers get capital punishment first and I am against the death penalty
and I will say one more time the loss of any loved one
is not like that of your own child ... but you already know that
We can go around on this but society and it's chosen laws effects people's behavior.
We choose the laws we do because the majority believe in the need or the practice
and it sends a message that something is either accepted or it is not depending on the law.
As an adult in this society it is my duty to protect the children, not only my duty
everyone's duty. It is society's duty. This why we have laws protecting them.
To legalize killer drugs, drugs that take a life within months of use,
would be irresponsible.
As far as saving everyone ... we are not talking about vices, we are talking about
life and death substances.
Alcohol, Weed, Cigs, Food ...
these are ingestibles that are vices and may affect your health negatively over a lifetime.
We are talking killer drugs ... dead soon. Beautiful healthy promising bright loving
and loved child... dead.
We have drugs/ foods banned everyday when found to be dangerous and I think most people
are very glad of that.
Well, it is found that killer drugs are bad for our kids... hell they are bad for everyone and
for our society.
They should be treated as the dangerous substances they are... and remain illegal.
distraction the best mechanism to battle bad behavior...
we are and remain much smarter than they.
If your little one chooses drugs in 15 years be ready for the fall of your life.
One there is no end to ... free falling... horribly suspended in time
and if you are one of the lucky ones you'll be there to catch her
dogs don't do drugs ... they are the easy ones
I stopped myself when my first reaction to that was, “Of course she'll never choose drugs....I'd never let her.” I'm sure that's what every mother thinks until they are faced with a brutally different reality.
I've already lost one daughter and I don't think I could make it through a second time—especially under those circumstances.
I'm pretty set on my opinions on most of the big debatable topics—abortion, capital punishment, marijuana, euthanasia etc, etc. But I have to say I'm really up in the air on this one. I read one person's comment and think “oh yes, then we should make them legal, it will help.” Then the next comment by you makes me think, “are we crazy, why would we legalize something that destructive?”
Interesting, although heartbreaking, thread...