legalize drugs ?????

StillHere

SweetChildofMine wrote:

Funny, cuz I was just explaining "the gateway" this morning to some people.

do you believe in "the gateway" ?

Godfather.

mikepegg44 wrote:

it may not prevent abuse, but who are you to tell me I cannot trip, or get high, or smoke. until it involves you in a criminal way...it shouldn't even matter
non-violent drug offenders should not be in federal or state prison.

decriminalize or legalize drugs and you remove the back alley aspect.

but ultimately if someone chooses to harm themselves, I don't think it should be illegal to do so. if they choose to harm others...than by all means go crazy.
If the government have the dollars for treatment that we spend on losing the drug war...we would have already saved more lives than it would have cost us.
the stats on Portugal are obviously debatable. one of the highest homicide rates is that drug related homicides or homicides in total...maybe the Portuguese are hot heads ...they had a severe problem to begin with...the stuff I have seen points to decreased new starts and overall users.

I know you are dead set against it, but it isn't the feds job to protect us from ourselves...it is ours. it is there job to protect me from you, and you from me...when those lines are crossed there is a price to pay...just like with Alcohol

who's going to protect you from the drug addict that wants to hurt you or worse for the $30 you got in your pocket ? (and they will..and do) and has booze been kept out of the back alley ? I'm telling ya Mike what you guys are asking for is a hell of a lot more than most people and their familys of 2.3 kids will be able to deal with, and drugs have a far different effect on the mind then booze like say meth or cocaine, most drunks can be controled but you start dealing with a waco strung out on meth and chances are he/she can and will be a great danger,so this bull crap these guys are saying drugs and booze are the same thing really have no idea what they're talking about.

Godfather.

Godfather.

StillHere wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

have you ever spent some time with a real drug addicted person ? I mean really addicted...they steal from their own kids, mothers,fathers ,friends...and when their addiction kills them their familys and kids get stuck with their fucking bills and the task putting their dead ass in the ground and it ain't cheap...unless you have the city do for you and in that case if the family does not claim the dead father, son,child or friend after 30 days the city pays for it...so yes by all means legalize drugs and spend time and money to enable the drug addicts. :?

Godfather.

a REAL addict..yes...
yes i have...its no picnic
its heartbreaking and there is nothing that you or i can do about that specific person
only they can change it...and have to want it really bad...cuz its not easy..not easy..most people probably can't even come close to comprehending what its like to be (or live with) a real junkie

that being said..i can't believe the ignorance of the statements that legalizing marijuana has led to so much increase in other drug addictions and human trafficking etc.....makes no sense.... smoking pot just makes you too damned lazy to engage in much of that other nonsense

i think that is a bunch of propaganda on the part of those who want to keep it illegal...consider:

have you ever considered that maybe those who would have marijuana remain illegal are precisely those who are making a crapload of money off of the whole thing? its not the penny-ante pot dealer down the street, he gets it from someone, who gets it from someone who gets it from someone else who gets it from a well oiled organization (unless he's got a plot in the field behind his house, that is) and that well-oiled organization is running the show peeps..its not the pot smoking that's the problem, it IS the fact that it is illegal that allows all the nasty nasties to go on ...really nasties

anyway....i may be getting slightly off topic here...but i just have to say that i don't believe that the issue for legalizing pot should have any impact whatsoever on the argument for or against other, harder, "addictive" drugs...they are not one in the same..one does not lead to the other..buying pot (simply because you have to go to your friendly local dealer) may expose you to people to have access to other drugs, but drinking beer also exposes you to free and open access to any other alcoholic beverage up to and including grain alcohol..which will kill you just fine, thank you very much..and yes, alcoholism is a terrible disease...but you see my point, right? just because you or i might enjoy a frosty brew after work doesn't make alcoholics, same as if you or i choose to smoke a bowl instead...not a junkie..not a drug addict. see?

example of money running the show... and you all know this....cigarettes contain nicotine and other highly addictive agents...but they are legal and available precisely because "the someones" who matter are making an obscene amount of money off of marketing them..they know they're bad for you...addictive..cancer causing...horrible..but no problem... cuz what's important is making money, which equates to power in our society ... they make the rules according to their priorities (and that is certainly true..tobacco lobbyists, right?) and those that want to take advantage of the influence that power controls, will follow at every turn

AND NO LAW ..one way or the other, has, or is ever going to, stop those who are determined to gain pleasure from one substance or another...never.

am i wrong?

no jo I can't argue with you about the pot issue.

Godfather.

Cheeks

There are no easy answers....
The sister of a good friend of mine died last year of a drug overdose. You could see it coming, but there was just no stopping it. The inevitable call came early one morning and my friend had to go and identify the body of her 27-year-old little sister. I would never say this to her, but the saddest part of the whole thing for me, is how much calmer and peaceful my friend's life is now. I will not say her life is better—ever, but it has changed. My friend was also my co-worker and much of her work day was spent tracking down her sister—whether she was in jail or her treatment centre or whether she had been kicked out of rehab or left willingly, whether she had eaten, how much money she had taken from their mom and if their mom now had enough to pay her rent.... etc, etc, etc.
Somewhere along the way, Ash made some bad decisions (as we all have) and her decisions led her down a road that got darker and narrower. She's no more or less at fault than I am for some of the bad decisions I've made. My consequences were just not as severe---I may still be paying, but I'm also still alive.
I don't think whether drugs are illegal or legal has much to do with whether people go down that road or not. There are just so many other factors, including personality and history, and events that lead to those decisions and that point.
The battle to try and eradicate drugs is pointless. I think education and compassionate care would be money better spent, although I still don't think this would be a solution on its own.
And I also agree with Stillhere that pot is something totally different.... however, where I am, if you're going to buy pot you either buy straight from the local grower or from a person one link away from the grower. I'm not sure I'd smoke it if I knew it was coming from some big organized crime ring.

Sorry, that was way longer that I intended.... and I'm not even sure I made a point it all that. Just wanted to contribute to the conversation.

StillHere

Firefox wrote:

There are no easy answers....
The sister of a good friend of mine died last year of a drug overdose. You could see it coming, but there was just no stopping it. The inevitable call came early one morning and my friend had to go and identify the body of her 27-year-old little sister. I would never say this to her, but the saddest part of the whole thing for me, is how much calmer and peaceful my friend's life is now. I will not say her life is better—ever, but it has changed. My friend was also my co-worker and much of her work day was spent tracking down her sister—whether she was in jail or her treatment centre or whether she had been kicked out of rehab or left willingly, whether she had eaten, how much money she had taken from their mom and if their mom now had enough to pay her rent.... etc, etc, etc.
Somewhere along the way, Ash made some bad decisions (as we all have) and her decisions led her down a road that got darker and narrower. She's no more or less at fault than I am for some of the bad decisions I've made. My consequences were just not as severe---I may still be paying, but I'm also still alive.
I don't think whether drugs are illegal or legal has much to do with whether people go down that road or not. There are just so many other factors, including personality and history, and events that lead to those decisions and that point.
The battle to try and eradicate drugs is pointless. I think education and compassionate care would be money better spent, although I still don't think this would be a solution on its own.
And I also agree with Stillhere that pot is something totally different.... however, where I am, if you're going to buy pot you either buy straight from the local grower or from a person one link away from the grower. I'm not sure I'd smoke it if I knew it was coming from some big organized crime ring.

Sorry, that was way longer that I intended.... and I'm not even sure I made a point it all that. Just wanted to contribute to the conversation.

sorry to hear all of that

my daughter in law's twin brother is a heroin addict
and my DIL is constantly in a state of stress wondering about his safety
its sad to say but the times when she feels most secure about him are when he's gotten arrested and is in jail
cuz even rehab doesn't do him for long

sad thing

SweetChildofMine

StillHere wrote:

SweetChildofMine wrote:

Funny, cuz I was just explaining "the gateway" this morning to some people.

do you believe in "the gateway" ?

Jo if you tell me to eat the red pill at some point of this conversation....

Of course I believe in the gateway. Gateway of the Mind.


Muwhahahahaha . Just Kidding on the evil laugh.
[img][/img]http://athens.indymedia.org/local/webca ... imated.gif

fife

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/20 ... -portugal/

just for another view since this person talked about portugal

Godfather.

Firefox wrote:

There are no easy answers....
The sister of a good friend of mine died last year of a drug overdose. You could see it coming, but there was just no stopping it. The inevitable call came early one morning and my friend had to go and identify the body of her 27-year-old little sister. I would never say this to her, but the saddest part of the whole thing for me, is how much calmer and peaceful my friend's life is now. I will not say her life is better—ever, but it has changed. My friend was also my co-worker and much of her work day was spent tracking down her sister—whether she was in jail or her treatment centre or whether she had been kicked out of rehab or left willingly, whether she had eaten, how much money she had taken from their mom and if their mom now had enough to pay her rent.... etc, etc, etc.
Somewhere along the way, Ash made some bad decisions (as we all have) and her decisions led her down a road that got darker and narrower. She's no more or less at fault than I am for some of the bad decisions I've made. My consequences were just not as severe---I may still be paying, but I'm also still alive.
I don't think whether drugs are illegal or legal has much to do with whether people go down that road or not. There are just so many other factors, including personality and history, and events that lead to those decisions and that point.
The battle to try and eradicate drugs is pointless. I think education and compassionate care would be money better spent, although I still don't think this would be a solution on its own.
And I also agree with Stillhere that pot is something totally different.... however, where I am, if you're going to buy pot you either buy straight from the local grower or from a person one link away from the grower. I'm not sure I'd smoke it if I knew it was coming from some big organized crime ring.

Sorry, that was way longer that I intended.... and I'm not even sure I made a point it all that. Just wanted to contribute to the conversation.

I watched my good bro's kid's throw a hanf full of dirt on his cascett while they cried.
another got shot through the heart and it came out the top of his head because he was strung out and pointing a gun at people(paranoid) so a cop shot him right then and there.
I'v been there and done and seen it you guys may not know what you are asking for when you want to legalize drugs.
I could go on with a few more experiances in my life that have taken lives due to drugs but you guys wouldn't see the reality of it till it happens to you,

Godfather.

Drowned Out

Godfather. wrote:

I watched my good bro's kid's throw a hanf full of dirt on his cascett while they cried.
another got shot through the heart and it came out the top of his head because he was strung out and pointing a gun at people(paranoid) so a cop shot him right then and there.
I'v been there and done and seen it you guys may not know what you are asking for when you want to legalize drugs.
I could go on with a few more experiances in my life that have taken lives due to drugs but you guys wouldn't see the reality of it till it happens to you,

Godfather.

ugh...man, I always resent this inference. It is what set me off against a friend of yours here before - as if I must be coming from a lack of understanding on the topic if I support legalization.

First, I guarantee I've devoted exponentially more time to this topic than you or the other poster who threw this at me....prohibition, it's roots, and drug law reform got me interested in politics in the first place, and still remains my 'pet cause'. I'm actively involved in the 'fight', I follow developments closely, read as much as possible about it, and count some full-time, well known activists/politicians as close friends. I don't say this to toot my horn, just to tell you that I'm not shooting from the hip here...

Next...I normally don't like discussing my personal life here...but in this case I think it's important that you understand where I'm coming from.

The first woman I ever loved died in her sleep of a drug overdose in 1998. Her friends, who may have had 'drug education' from the standpoint of 'just say no', or DARE, but not from the standpoint of HARM REDUCTION, decided that when she started losing consciousness, she just needed to 'sleep it off', and put her to bed. (*hint - if anyone high on hard drugs starts passing out, do NOT put them to bed!)

My best friend thru high school killed himself in 2001 after fighting drug addiction and mental illness for years and not being able to shake it.

My ex-wife, and mother of my kids, developed a coke addiction over the past couple of years (after our divorce), while attempting to cope with the loss of both her mom (52) and best friend (32) from cancer (within months of each other), and depression that had been a part of her life since losing her dad as a kid. The main reason she is alive, still seeing her kids, and still a functioning member of society, is because she was lucky enough to work for a company/union that provided long-term disability to addicts, support programs to help keep her in treatment, and had support from loved ones.

See the difference in the outcome of these three scenarios? Treatment, and education. prohibition did NOTHING for the first two. They failed themselves, yes, but the system that is supposedly set up to prevent drug abuse failed them miserably as well.

So don't you dare try to suggest that this is something people are out of touch with reality about if they support drug law reform...I'm sure every fucking person reading this has been touched by addiction at some point in their lives. Unfortunately, people automatically fall back on what they're told about drugs as soon as it touches them....and for the most part, what we've been told about drugs, esp since ol' mother Reagan got involved, only helps the businesses and government agencies doing the 'telling'. Ive found that most people change their tune once they stop to think about it, and get access to other opinions.



Another point I'd like to make....
Prohibition laws are used to 'save people from themselves'....yet it has done very little to prevent the flow of drugs (in fact, drug availability has increased steadily thru the decades of the war on SOME drugs). So... the logic is that we are trying to prevent people who are not currently using drugs from trying them because they're more readily available (which, knowing that they're MORE available partly DUE to prohibition, is a flawed premise)...That logic is flawed when you think it thru to it's outcomes. Not only is there data to suggest that decrim/legalization does NOT increase use (contradicting what this POS CNN op-ed says), but THE VAST MAJORITY of people who use drugs recreationally (yes, even hard drugs),do so without it ever becoming a problem, or serious addiction. They get some blow, MDMA, acid, whatever, on a weekend, feel like shit the next day, get up and go to work on monday. So....lets compare....Take the number of people trying drugs just because they're legal (likely a small number since it's already readily available, and arrest is not an effective deterrent), then factor in the relatively small percentage of THOSE people who become addicted or overdose....And contrast that figure with the number of hard working, tax-paying, recreational users - people with families and careers, whose lives have been destroyed by prohibition laws. It makes NO fucking sense at ALL.
We're destroying the lives of many to save the lives of a few. And that's without touching on the personal freedom argument, nor the big govt vs small govt argument.

Cheeks

Godfather. wrote:

Firefox wrote:

There are no easy answers....
The sister of a good friend of mine died last year of a drug overdose. You could see it coming, but there was just no stopping it. The inevitable call came early one morning and my friend had to go and identify the body of her 27-year-old little sister. I would never say this to her, but the saddest part of the whole thing for me, is how much calmer and peaceful my friend's life is now. I will not say her life is better—ever, but it has changed. My friend was also my co-worker and much of her work day was spent tracking down her sister—whether she was in jail or her treatment centre or whether she had been kicked out of rehab or left willingly, whether she had eaten, how much money she had taken from their mom and if their mom now had enough to pay her rent.... etc, etc, etc.
Somewhere along the way, Ash made some bad decisions (as we all have) and her decisions led her down a road that got darker and narrower. She's no more or less at fault than I am for some of the bad decisions I've made. My consequences were just not as severe---I may still be paying, but I'm also still alive.
I don't think whether drugs are illegal or legal has much to do with whether people go down that road or not. There are just so many other factors, including personality and history, and events that lead to those decisions and that point.
The battle to try and eradicate drugs is pointless. I think education and compassionate care would be money better spent, although I still don't think this would be a solution on its own.
And I also agree with Stillhere that pot is something totally different.... however, where I am, if you're going to buy pot you either buy straight from the local grower or from a person one link away from the grower. I'm not sure I'd smoke it if I knew it was coming from some big organized crime ring.

Sorry, that was way longer that I intended.... and I'm not even sure I made a point it all that. Just wanted to contribute to the conversation.

I watched my good bro's kid's throw a hanf full of dirt on his cascett while they cried.
another got shot through the heart and it came out the top of his head because he was strung out and pointing a gun at people(paranoid) so a cop shot him right then and there.
I'v been there and done and seen it you guys may not know what you are asking for when you want to legalize drugs.
I could go on with a few more experiances in my life that have taken lives due to drugs but you guys wouldn't see the reality of it till it happens to you,

Godfather.

My post was sort of lacking a point, I realize this. I wasn't necessarily meaning that I think all drugs should be legalized—who I am to say? I just meant that I don't know if having them illegal or legal or decriminalized (a term that floats around often here in BC) would make much of a difference. If people are going to go down that road, they're going to go down that road. Drugs are illegal now and people take the risk to get what they need. If all drugs were suddenly legal, I wouldn't suddenly go running to score some coke or crack. I don't know that legalizing would improve or worsen the situation (at least not in the long term)... there seems to be so much more involved than just the legal status.

I think some interesting points were made by Drowned Out. Gives me something to think about anyway. Sorry you've both had to see the devastation that goes along with addiction.

pandora

I wonder if I am the friend ...


yes ... by all means let's legalize Crystal Meth :?


METH MOUTH

I could never condone the use of these types of drugs
I would only support stronger punishment for those who traffic
and sell.... Life in prison no chance for parole.
Pushers are parasites on society.

I would only support no punishment for those who use
with mandatory rehab over prison time.
And a much more active plan on prevention.

I feel we all have a responsibility to each other to protect and love...
there is no place for these type of drugs in that scenario.

After witnessing first hand the destruction of these drugs
in good conscious I can not support legalization.

For those I have lost,
for those I love who have made it through addiction,

I must honor them by fighting against these heartbreaking soul sucking drugs.

g under p

^^^^^Is speaking of the effects of meth of which I know not much. Is your feeling the same for all drugs weed, herione, cocaine etc? I do feel cannibis should be legalize...if the drug is grown from the earth and use from that state then make it legal.

Peace

hedonist

I don't necessarily condone the use of hard(er) drugs, but I do condone the choice to go down that path. I'm sure I'll elaborate later.

That said - Drowned Out...wow. A lot of loss you've dealt with, as with so many others' experiences I've read here. I'm sorry. And I thank you for the eloquence and honesty with which you all have made your well-taken points.

Just gonna comment on pot for now

Despite it being illegal - and granted, the laws are thankfully much laxer here now - I've never had trouble getting weed (either from my long-time friend who delivers or when I was much younger and would drive through what we called Little Tijuana trying to score a hopefully decent dimebag (ha! I haven't used that term since those days).

We even got some for my 80-year-old mom when she was recovering from painful shoulder replacement surgery. It did her some good. Not a lot, but some.

I don't think it's a gateway unless the other variables are there too, as was commented on earlier. It's helpful, natural, and fun. I've been smoking for about 30 years now (holy hell - 30!), and I'm in a solid relationship, hold a great job, make a good living, have no debt except for our mortgage and his car, and am happy. So, it can be done.

Also to elaborate on the earlier Hicks quote: "Pot shouldn't just be legal...it should be mandatory"

peacefrompaul

pandora wrote:

I wonder if I am the friend ...


yes ... by all means let's legalize Crystal Meth :?


METH MOUTH

I could never condone the use of these types of drugs
I would only support stronger punishment for those who traffic
and sell.... Life in prison no chance for parole.
Pushers are parasites on society.

I would only support no punishment for those who use
with mandatory rehab over prison time.
And a much more active plan on prevention.

I feel we all have a responsibility to each other to protect and love...
there is no place for these type of drugs in that scenario.

After witnessing first hand the destruction of these drugs
in good conscious I can not support legalization.

For those I have lost,
for those I love who have made it through addiction,

I must honor them by fighting against these heartbreaking soul sucking drugs.

Sucks. that person made a choice

norm

godfather...


can you hold back the ocean with a broom?

prism

did anyone else notice this article godfather posted was written by none other than william bennet...the first drug czar? is there any wonder why it's so full of disinformation and bullshit? look how much power & profit he's gained from 'the war on drugs' :roll:



anyway...very glad my signature was one to get this initiative on the ballot in November. from what i've heard from ppl is there's plenty of voters that don't smoke themselves but still see the pros that are planning to vote for it. can't wait to fill (something and) my ballot out in Nov.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/ ... 7F20120128

Washington state marijuana legalization headed for ballot

By Alex Dobuzinskis

Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:30pm EST

(Reuters) - Supporters of legalizing marijuana for recreational use have submitted enough signatures to put the matter to voters in Washington state in a bold move that, if successful, could put Olympia on a collision course with the federal government.

The group New Approach Washington submitted nearly 278,000 valid signatures for the measure, more than required to put it on the November ballot, David Ammons, a spokesman for the Washington Secretary of State's office, said in a statement.

The move comes as federal prosecutors have sought to crank up pressure on several mostly western states, including Washington, that have legalized medical marijuana even as cannibis remains classified as an illegal narcotic under federal law.

The proposal, if approved by voters, would allow marijuana sales to people 21 and older, permit state taxes to be collected on the drug, ban pot advertising and prohibit driving under the influence of cannabis.

Supporters of legalizing marijuana, who include acting Seattle city attorney Peter Holmes, say the federal prohibition on the drug has not curbed use and that it enriches drug cartels.

"This is the grown-up approach to regulating a relatively harmless drug," Holmes said.

Opponents of legalization say it would lead to more abuse of the drug, including by young people, and that underground sales would continue.

"There will always be a black market. That's been proven with cigarettes with the tobacco industry," said Calvina Fay, head of the Florida-based Drug Free America Foundation. "Even though tobacco is legal and it's regulated, there's still a huge global black market."

Washington is one of 16 states that, along with the nation's capital, have decriminalized medical marijuana. But federal agents have raided medical marijuana dispensaries in several states, including Washington, in recent months.

Under state law, the recreational legalization initiative next heads to the Washington State Legislature, which has the option of avoiding a popular vote by itself enacting the proposal to legalize marijuana, Ammons said.

The legislature could also allow the measure to go to the ballot alongside an alternative from lawmakers, Ammons said.

Alison Holcomb, campaign director of New Approach Washington, has said she did not expect the legislature would enact the proposal on its own, but would leave the issue for voters to decide.

In 2010, a measure to legalize marijuana in California lost at the ballot box when less than 47 percent of voters approved it.

No modern, affluent nation has ever legalized commercial production and distribution of marijuana, according to research organization RAND Corp.

In the Netherlands, famous for its Amsterdam cafes where guests buy and smoke marijuana, authorities allow adults to buy the drug but the country officially has a policy that commercial production of it is illegal, said Beau Kilmer, co-director of the RAND Drug Policy Research Center.

hedonist

Good for Washington! This made me smile, and not just because I partake.

It just makes sense, and I hope to hell my state is smart enough to follow suit.

(hiya, pris :wave: )

Drowned Out

pandora wrote:

I wonder if I am the friend ...

And you gave me shit about using the :roll: emoticon before .....gotta wonder if that smiley is a manifestation of the pleasure you take in antagonizing me. Such disrespect, as you would lecture...

pandora wrote:

I could never condone the use of these types of drugs
I would only support stronger punishment for those who traffic
and sell.... Life in prison no chance for parole.
Pushers are parasites on society.

Pushers? Been watching some afterschool specials lately, have we? Seen that one where Helen Hunt jumps out a window? Classic stuff.
Most of the stories of schoolyard dealers hooking your kids on drugs for free are made up by guilty-parent syndrome, suburban marketing gurus. The user makes the choice to use every time they get high. But people need a scapegoat right?
Stronger punishment for traffickers completely belies this notion:

pandora wrote:

I would only support no punishment for those who use
with mandatory rehab over prison time.
And a much more active plan on prevention.

You can't have it both ways. It's a conflict of interest...plus, it raises the stakes in the drug war...which raises prices...which raises the desperation level of addicts...which raises crime rates...and so on and so on. confucius got nothin on norm. Your war cannot be won, or even fought effectively.

pandora wrote:

I feel we all have a responsibility to each other to protect and love...
there is no place for these type of drugs in that scenario.

After witnessing first hand the destruction of these drugs
in good conscious I can not support legalization.

For those I have lost,
for those I love who have made it through addiction,

I must honor them by fighting against these heartbreaking soul sucking drugs.

Sorry, but this is all rhetoric that could be applied to my side of the debate as easily as yours. But keep condescendingly thinking you've got the moral high ground....what was it last time? I might as well be putting a gun to my kids head if I support legalization? :roll:

Drowned Out

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

Trying to legislate that people take care of themselves (in any form) is ridiculous (not to mention 100% patently unconstitutional).

The last time this made "sense" was 2000 years ago in Old Testament times (lol).

You don't tell someone what they should or should not consumer,
and you do not enact criminal penalties against them for it, either.

You have no idea how much butter I should or should not consume,
neither have you any idea how much pot, blow, opium, MDMA, lsd, mushrooms, or DMT i should or should not consume.

There is NO difference between BUTTER and DRUGS.

We need laws to stop people from killing themselves with drugs,
like we need laws to stop people from killing themselves with their food addictions and poor diet.

All we need is well regulated, pure alternatives to bad street drugs and their toxic culture.
And we need THE AVAILABILITY of compassionate CARE (rehabilitation, clinics, etc) ...
NO ONE needs (and most will not accept or be successful with) FORCED CARE.

The article's dubious self-defeating logic is so glaring it hurts.
If what we need is more mothers like Whitney Houston's, who GOT COURT ORDERED TREATMENT, then why is her poor daughter dead?

People have drug problems for most of the same reasons they have other severely debilitating \ self-limiting life problems -- they stem from having a lack of self-worth, lack of positive roll-models, lack of unconditional love in their lives, lack of support structure.

The ONLY grounds used to justify the War on Drugs is essentially the notion that such a fight HELPS TO IMPROVE THE SOCIAL ORDER (it makes "bad people" - drug addicts & drug dealers - in to "better" people, or keeps them away from "better" people entirely -- in jail).

If you want to improve the social order there are plenty of BENEVOLENT ways to do that.
You don't have to RUIN lives for the sake of "saving" them.

When a drug dealer CAN NOT compete ...
he WILL NOT compete.

When a drug abuser HAS AN ALTERNATIVE,
he MAY (OR MAY NOT) ***CHOOSE*** THAT ALTERNATIVE.

Even if you DO legislate a "choice" for him (ie. court mandated treatment) ... he may (and probably will) NOT accept it.

how you say.....quoted for truth?
a-fucking-men.
The thing is....as I'm sure you know....the reasons for the war on drugs are much more odius than improving the social order...that's something like the third layer of the propaganda onion, after 'saving lives', and 'preventing crime'....then there are the pharma/legal drug layers, govt corruption, black op funding, and the prison industrial complex layers....so entrenched, it's daunting as hell.

prism

hedonist wrote:

Good for Washington! This made me smile, and not just because I partake.

It just makes sense, and I hope to hell my state is smart enough to follow suit.

(hiya, pris :wave: )

also it makes sense because last nov voters decided liquor is to be sold in retail outlets. so if this passes it means all these state liquor stores that are closing down this year can be converted into weed stores :thumbup:

heya there, hedo :wave: