since 2007 when the rule was changed to allow the offenses to be in charge of the footballs (led by suggestions by Brady and Peyton Manning apparently), the Patriots have a historically low fumble rate that far exceeds what they were prior to 2007 and far exceeds the fumble rates of all other NFL teams EVER....things that make you go hmmmm.
I thought this was one of those charts/graphs that was debunked a few pages back? I think the argument went along the lines that whoever put it together, cherry picked those other QBs and if you look at the league QBs in total, the Patriots' numbers aren't that glaring. Did I dream that? Plus, Belicheck is a stickler for turnovers, hates them and will bench players for turning it over. Can't bench Tom but you can ride him to protect the ball better. And what is up with the Vikes/Panther game and no punishment? Pats are 10-1 to win the Super Bowl.
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Excessive and unnecessary. I'm a bills fan and I don't think a suspension was warranted.
Now who wanted to bet the pats will still make the super bowl this season? Because I'm willing to take your money...
Their Super Bowl odds will probably go up a bit in the coming days so that might be a pretty good bet. I mean, really, they'll go 2-2 without him if the suspension ends up being 4 games. But ya know what? They started 2-2 last year and went on to win the Super Bowl. They play in the shittiest, shit-kicking division of the 21st century, and they'll win it like they always do. I don't think it'll impact their season much at all.
I hope the pats downplay this shitty division as much as your are. The bill, dolphins, and jets are all going up quickly all the while the pats are going down the same hill. They've reached their peak. Keep thinking they will go 2-2 during a suspension. They may be lucky with a 1-3 record. They aren't a lock with Brady playing every game.
Who wanted to bet that they'd make the super bowl? I'm to lazy to look back a couple pages. Game on if your want.
Go back and look it up, donkey pit. I love the underestimation of Bill by the way. We lost Brady on the first game of the season and still went 11-5 and missed the playoffs because of the tie break with the Jets. Other teams made the playoffs with worse records, something I'll never understand if your talking "legitimacy."
It was the Dolphins who won the tiebreaker over the Pats in 2008....not the Jets.
Thanks for the correction. I don't have an encyclopedic mind for sports and especially not for numbers and stats.
Well I know that one cause that's the only time in the past 12 years that the Dolphins made the playoffs. Fucking losers.
On ATH, Bomani Jones said the chargers were fined $100,000 for doctoring balls. When that first came up, you don't think the chargers denied this at all? That they immediately admitted to the wrong doing and accepted the punishment? I doubt it. This was a witch hunt.
Bomani is mistaken. Chargers were fined $20,000 not $100,000.
They were putting stcik'um on towels and placing the towels on the balls on the sidelines so Rivers could get a tacky grip. Officials noticed it and asked for the towels and the Chargers sideline became a Chinese fire drill as the ball boys rushed to hide the towels. Chargers never turned towels over, denied using them and got a 20K fine.
On ATH, Bomani Jones said the chargers were fined $100,000 for doctoring balls. When that first came up, you don't think the chargers denied this at all? That they immediately admitted to the wrong doing and accepted the punishment? I doubt it. This was a witch hunt.
Bomani is mistaken. Chargers were fined $20,000 not $100,000.
They were putting stcik'um on towels and placing the towels on the balls on the sidelines so Rivers could get a tacky grip. Officials noticed it and asked for the towels and the Chargers sideline became a Chinese fire drill as the ball boys rushed to hide the towels. Chargers never turned towels over, denied using them and got a 20K fine.
At least the NFL is even handed and consistent.
yep. and nothing happened to vikings last year after they were caught putting ball too close to their heaters.....well, nothing other than a stern warning.
again--this is the dumbest scandal to ever exist in professional sports.
The Chargers towels thing was not against the rules at the time and they revised the rule after the fact.
I dont see the equivalency in the Vikings/Panthers game. It was cold there. There were big heaters. I dont know. Doesnt seem like anything compared to a QB giving sneakers, autographs, jerseys, etc to a couple guys over what seems like an extended period of time to sneak in with a needle alter their gameballs after inspection. Also factor in that they were caught at the AFC Championship Game on the cusp of Superbowl Hype week. Even then the Patriots could have made it into much smaller of an issue if they handled this correctly. Every time it was dying down, the Patriots would hold some sort of ridiculous press conference.
If it didnt make a big difference they wouldn't do it.
There really was not a single moment during the Super Bowl fortnight that this "scandal" was dying down. There just wasn't. There was the full-scale media riot that erupted during the first week and there was the annual circus that is Super Bowl week. Nothing ever died down. This idea that the Patriots could have handled this differently and somehow make things calm down just doesn't make much sense. I have seen the point made dozens of time now between TV, radio and the internet and it feels more like revisionist history each time.
Mike Florio touched on it today in a really good piece that is worth a read.
Fueled by PSI measurements that seem low to someone who doesn’t instantly realize that air pressure drops significantly during prolonged exposure to cold temperatures, the league promptly launched an investigation. But NFL executive V.P. Dave Gardi inexplicably told the Patriots in the initial letter explaining the investigation that one of the balls was determined to have a pressure of only 10.1 PSI, even though none of the footballs had a pressure that low.
Then, someone from the league (it surely wasn’t someone from the Patriots) leaked to ESPN’s Chris Mortensen that 10 of the 12 balls were a full two pounds below the 12.5 PSI minimum. The measurements reveal that this information was false.
The false information leaked to Mortensen gave the story more traction and a higher degree of significance. It also placed the Patriots on the defensive without the Patriots knowing the specific PSI measurements against which they were defending. If true and accurate information had been leaked to the media or given to the Patriots, coach Bill Belichick’s notorious Mona Lisa Vito press conference would have been far more persuasive, because the data from one of the two significantly conflicting gauges used to determine the air pressure generated measurements in line with the expected loss in pressure during 90 minutes in the elements of a January day in Foxboro.
Think of how different the narrative would have been if, in the early days of the scandal, the prevailing information from one of the largest sports-media outlets in America had been not that 10 of the 12 balls were two pounds under the minimum but that all 12 balls (including the one that had been intercepted by Jackson) tested within the range consistent with the application of the Ideal Gas Law.
none of this changes the fact that they cheated. Split hairs on psi, how the NFL "handled" it, how 'they hate us cause they aint us'.... The Patriots had a guy who called himself the "Deflator" who let air out of balls, almost certainly at the direction from Brady, who provided nice 'tips'.
That's it. They cheated. They got punished. The punishment is fine. The Patriots will be fine. The foot stomping from the Northeastern US cant change it. It only continues the dialog.
They might have "cheated". That wasn't the point I was rebutting. The idea, however,that they could have done something different from a P.R. perspective to quiet the storm is simply incorrect and revisionist history.
They could have been forthcoming. Probably didn't necessarily need to admit there was a 'deflator' and sneaking the balls into the bathroom to deflate them... but that Brady PC, Kraft's demand for an apology, and Belichick's Mystery Science Theater did not help.
Historically, look at Giambi and Pettite vs ARoid, Clemens, Bonds.
If they admitted it to some point and accepted punishment, everyone would have probably been somewhat satisfied, agreed its probably not a huge deal, probably wont happen again, and it would not be news in May.
They might have "cheated". That wasn't the point I was rebutting. The idea, however,that they could have done something different from a P.R. perspective to quiet the storm is simply incorrect and revisionist history.
well what they could have done differently is NOT CHEAT but since they've been cheating for over a decade now i guess it's hard to teach a old dog new tricks.
I dont see the equivalency in the Vikings/Panthers game. It was cold there. There were big heaters. I dont know. .
Oh, so when its cold, breaking rules is no big deal? Heating the footballs violated the rule, the league stated this. Just like having them underinflated violates the rule. The Panthers and Vikings were told by the league to stop and don't do it again. The Patriots were subjected to a 100 plus day investigation, a million dollar fine, 2 lost draft picks and a 4 game suspension for their QB. But the league is even handed and consistent.
I dont see the equivalency in the Vikings/Panthers game. It was cold there. There were big heaters. I dont know. .
Oh, so when its cold, breaking rules is no big deal? Heating the footballs violated the rule, the league stated this. Just like having them underinflated violates the rule. The Panthers and Vikings were told by the league to stop and don't do it again. The Patriots were subjected to a 100 plus day investigation, a million dollar fine, 2 lost draft picks and a 4 game suspension for their QB. But the league is even handed and consistent.
there are big differences in the two situations though.
1 - NFL didn't initially find the Pats deflating balls they were turned in by another team...thus requiring some kind of investigation. 2 - this was the AFC Championship game so once became public no way to sweep this one away in the 2 weeks before the Super Bowl 3 - The Patriots are already convicted cheaters.
put those 3 things together it's not hard to distinguish why their was an investigation and why they were disciplined
Brady has hired a lawyer that has a long past of handing down beatings on the NFL in court ... but based on the incompetence of the NFL, Lionel Hutz should be adequate.
Bomani Jones probably reported the correct number, I probably forgot what he said by the time I posted that. And for those that think Brady cheated without a shadow of a doubt, do you think he would have been convicted of a crime had the same evidence been presented in court?
I know the NFL doesn't require a conviction to punish people, hell, they don't even need an arrest in some cases. But this punishment far exceeds what should have been done with the circumstantial evidence presented.
Again, if Kraft and Belechick were found to have nothing to do with this, why the fine and the loss of picks? Looks like an extension of spygate. Which would be a shame to be punished twice for the same offense.
And for those that think Brady cheated without a shadow of a doubt, do you think he would have been convicted of a crime had the same evidence been presented in court?
Criminal court? No. That standard is beyond a reasonable doubt. Civil court? Perhaps. There you only need a preponderance of evidence, and based on tweets, testimony, and the report, that bar may have been met.
I don't think this means much anyway. Kraft can pay the fine without blinking. Brady can handle a 4 game loss of income without resorting to Top Ramen. The Patriots' reputation hasn't really been impacted, because most fans outside of New England already have a negative opinion of the organization, and most fans in the New England area are sticking by their team no matter what. The Patriot's record might take a hit next season due to the Brady suspension, but they'll still win the division, and will still have a shot at getting back to the Superbowl. So at this point it is an interesting story, and some off-season buzz, but it won't really change anything.
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Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmm? I wonder what the point spread was for that Pats/Jets game referenced? Maybe the officials should be investigated?
But why has no one mentioned the text messages that reference game balls being inflated to 16 PSI?
On Oct. 17, the morning after the Patriots defeated the New York Jets, McNally and Jastremski exchanged several text messages that seemed to indicate Tom Brady was upset over footballs being over-inflated.
“I checked some of the balls this morn…” Jastremski wrote to McNally. “The refs f—ed us…a few of them were almost at 16. They didn’t recheck (them) after they put air in them.”
McNally then responded by saying “F– Tom…16 is nothing…wait till next Sunday,” which was obviously sarcasm and McNally’s way of joking that he’s going to screw Brady, who has openly admitted he likes a softer ball.
Before he mentioned the 16 PSI issue to McNally, Jastremski also texted his fiancee about it.
“Ugh…Tom was right,” he wrote. “I just measured some of the balls. They supposed to be 13 lbs… They were like 16. Felt like bricks.”
It’s certainly possible that McNally or Jastremski or someone else has let air out of game balls after they were inspected by officials at some point, but it seems fairly obvious what happened the night the Patriots played the Jets.
Remember how Aaron Rodgers admitted that he likes to turn in footballs that are over-inflated to see if the officials will let air out of them? In all likelihood, the Patriots turned in balls that were under-inflated before their game against the Jets, and the officials put more air in them after measuring the PSI. Since Jastremski was discussing the balls being severely over-inflated the next morning, that means McNally — aka the “Deflator” — obviously was unable to let air out of them after the officials inspected them.
Of course, you could argue that the portion of the conversation where Yastremski mentioned balls being over-inflated by officials was all a lie. That would be convenient.
What’s the point? The NFL rules clearly state that game balls are supposed to be inflated to within 12.5-13.5 PSI. If that’s the case, should officials — like the one who thought he remembered which gauge he used but Wells told him he was wrong — be over-inflating them by 2.5 pounds? If gripping a ball that is roughly 1-1.5 PSI underinflated (here are the numbers) is an advantage, wouldn’t gripping one that is 2.5 PSI overinflated be a serious disadvantage?
Let me guess, Jastremski’s mention of balls that were at 16 PSI is all part of his master plan to cover up the crime, right?
Am I saying the Patriots didn’t deflate game balls before the AFC Championship Game? No. Am I saying someone needs to address why an official allegedly over-inflated a team’s game balls by 2.5 pounds? Yes. For whatever reason, Wells chose not to look into that.
Brady - 4 games for under-inflated footballs Ray Rice - 2 games for indisputable video evidence of beating the fuck out of his wife Panthers/Vikings - Nothing for heating balls on the sideline, on film
why is it so hard for the Patriots and their fans to admit they got caught cheating (again) and accept their penalties like adults? as i predicted a few pages ago in this thread the amount of deflecting away from the actual cheating from the pats and their fans is pretty annoying and frankly absurd. you cheated, you got caught now stfu (in general not anyone personally in this thread)
And for those that think Brady cheated without a shadow of a doubt, do you think he would have been convicted of a crime had the same evidence been presented in court?
Criminal court? No. That standard is beyond a reasonable doubt. Civil court? Perhaps. There you only need a preponderance of evidence, and based on tweets, testimony, and the report, that bar may have been met.
I don't think this means much anyway. Kraft can pay the fine without blinking. Brady can handle a 4 game loss of income without resorting to Top Ramen. The Patriots' reputation hasn't really been impacted, because most fans outside of New England already have a negative opinion of the organization, and most fans in the New England area are sticking by their team no matter what. The Patriot's record might take a hit next season due to the Brady suspension, but they'll still win the division, and will still have a shot at getting back to the Superbowl. So at this point it is an interesting story, and some off-season buzz, but it won't really change anything.
The one thing you leave out is actually the most impactful and the one punishment that doesn't fit this situation at all and that is the loss of a first round draft pick. That's losing a top flight player for maybe 10 seasons or so. If the league had suspended Brady and fined the team the million. I wouldn't be overly bothered, Brady's suspension will get lowered to 2 or 3 on appeal, the million is relatively minor to an NFL owner. It's the draft pick loss that is the severe and unjustified part of the punishment.
why is it so hard for the Patriots and their fans to admit they got caught cheating (again) and accept their penalties like adults? as i predicted a few pages ago in this thread the amount of deflecting away from the actual cheating from the pats and their fans is pretty annoying and frankly absurd. you cheated, you got caught now stfu (in general not anyone personally in this thread)
So where are the Colts penalties for cheating, because they had 3 under-inflated footballs in the very same game?
why is it so hard for the Patriots and their fans to admit they got caught cheating (again) and accept their penalties like adults? as i predicted a few pages ago in this thread the amount of deflecting away from the actual cheating from the pats and their fans is pretty annoying and frankly absurd. you cheated, you got caught now stfu (in general not anyone personally in this thread)
So where are the Colts penalties for cheating, because they had 3 under-inflated footballs in the very same game?
You know, that's a good question. When this story broke, the home page on my computer, msn, had the story with a link to pictures from the AFC championship game. There were about 40 pictures posted on this link and they were action shots of both teams, running backs, receivers, quarterbacks, defenses, etc. Roughly 2/3s were of players in possession of a football, Brady back to pass, ball in hand, arm cocked. Running backs cradling the ball or covering up about to get tackled, etc. etc. Same for the Colts. There was only one picture where you could see the player's grip indent the ball, with his thumb as he gripped. One picture. It was Andrew Luck about to get hit or sacked while poised to throw. I've searched but have been unable to find the same 40 pictures or the link. If I do, I'll post it. Coincidence?
And for those that think Brady cheated without a shadow of a doubt, do you think he would have been convicted of a crime had the same evidence been presented in court?
Criminal court? No. That standard is beyond a reasonable doubt. Civil court? Perhaps. There you only need a preponderance of evidence, and based on tweets, testimony, and the report, that bar may have been met.
I don't think this means much anyway. Kraft can pay the fine without blinking. Brady can handle a 4 game loss of income without resorting to Top Ramen. The Patriots' reputation hasn't really been impacted, because most fans outside of New England already have a negative opinion of the organization, and most fans in the New England area are sticking by their team no matter what. The Patriot's record might take a hit next season due to the Brady suspension, but they'll still win the division, and will still have a shot at getting back to the Superbowl. So at this point it is an interesting story, and some off-season buzz, but it won't really change anything.
It's not a guarantee that the pats win the division. At all. And it's not about the loss of income for Brady. At all. I'm not sure how much Twitter is used in trials, but I doubt it's credible. And the simple fact that these two equipment guys hate Brady plays another part in this. It's not like they're friends and trying to cover for him. These guys didn't like him.
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Chargers were fined $20,000 not $100,000.
They were putting stcik'um on towels and placing the towels on the balls on the sidelines so Rivers could get a tacky grip. Officials noticed it and asked for the towels and the Chargers sideline became a Chinese fire drill as the ball boys rushed to hide the towels. Chargers never turned towels over, denied using them and got a 20K fine.
At least the NFL is even handed and consistent.
again--this is the dumbest scandal to ever exist in professional sports.
I dont see the equivalency in the Vikings/Panthers game. It was cold there. There were big heaters. I dont know. Doesnt seem like anything compared to a QB giving sneakers, autographs, jerseys, etc to a couple guys over what seems like an extended period of time to sneak in with a needle alter their gameballs after inspection.
Also factor in that they were caught at the AFC Championship Game on the cusp of Superbowl Hype week. Even then the Patriots could have made it into much smaller of an issue if they handled this correctly. Every time it was dying down, the Patriots would hold some sort of ridiculous press conference.
If it didnt make a big difference they wouldn't do it.
Mike Florio touched on it today in a really good piece that is worth a read.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/13/a-theory-on-how-deflategate-initially-unfolded/
Fueled by PSI measurements that seem low to someone who doesn’t instantly realize that air pressure drops significantly during prolonged exposure to cold temperatures, the league promptly launched an investigation. But NFL executive V.P. Dave Gardi inexplicably told the Patriots in the initial letter explaining the investigation that one of the balls was determined to have a pressure of only 10.1 PSI, even though none of the footballs had a pressure that low.
Then, someone from the league (it surely wasn’t someone from the Patriots) leaked to ESPN’s Chris Mortensen that 10 of the 12 balls were a full two pounds below the 12.5 PSI minimum. The measurements reveal that this information was false.
The false information leaked to Mortensen gave the story more traction and a higher degree of significance. It also placed the Patriots on the defensive without the Patriots knowing the specific PSI measurements against which they were defending. If true and accurate information had been leaked to the media or given to the Patriots, coach Bill Belichick’s notorious Mona Lisa Vito press conference would have been far more persuasive, because the data from one of the two significantly conflicting gauges used to determine the air pressure generated measurements in line with the expected loss in pressure during 90 minutes in the elements of a January day in Foxboro.
Think of how different the narrative would have been if, in the early days of the scandal, the prevailing information from one of the largest sports-media outlets in America had been not that 10 of the 12 balls were two pounds under the minimum but that all 12 balls (including the one that had been intercepted by Jackson) tested within the range consistent with the application of the Ideal Gas Law.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
That's it. They cheated. They got punished. The punishment is fine. The Patriots will be fine. The foot stomping from the Northeastern US cant change it. It only continues the dialog.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Historically, look at Giambi and Pettite vs ARoid, Clemens, Bonds.
If they admitted it to some point and accepted punishment, everyone would have probably been somewhat satisfied, agreed its probably not a huge deal, probably wont happen again, and it would not be news in May.
Heating the footballs violated the rule, the league stated this. Just like having them underinflated violates the rule. The Panthers and Vikings were told by the league to stop and don't do it again. The Patriots were subjected to a 100 plus day investigation, a million dollar fine, 2 lost draft picks and a 4 game suspension for their QB.
But the league is even handed and consistent.
1 - NFL didn't initially find the Pats deflating balls they were turned in by another team...thus requiring some kind of investigation.
2 - this was the AFC Championship game so once became public no way to sweep this one away in the 2 weeks before the Super Bowl
3 - The Patriots are already convicted cheaters.
put those 3 things together it's not hard to distinguish why their was an investigation and why they were disciplined
The comedy continues ...
I know the NFL doesn't require a conviction to punish people, hell, they don't even need an arrest in some cases. But this punishment far exceeds what should have been done with the circumstantial evidence presented.
Again, if Kraft and Belechick were found to have nothing to do with this, why the fine and the loss of picks? Looks like an extension of spygate. Which would be a shame to be punished twice for the same offense.
I don't think this means much anyway. Kraft can pay the fine without blinking. Brady can handle a 4 game loss of income without resorting to Top Ramen. The Patriots' reputation hasn't really been impacted, because most fans outside of New England already have a negative opinion of the organization, and most fans in the New England area are sticking by their team no matter what. The Patriot's record might take a hit next season due to the Brady suspension, but they'll still win the division, and will still have a shot at getting back to the Superbowl. So at this point it is an interesting story, and some off-season buzz, but it won't really change anything.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/why-are-some-deflategate-text-messages-being-ignored/ar-BBjJaTI?ocid=iehp
But why has no one mentioned the text messages that reference game balls being inflated to 16 PSI?
On Oct. 17, the morning after the Patriots defeated the New York Jets, McNally and Jastremski exchanged several text messages that seemed to indicate Tom Brady was upset over footballs being over-inflated.
“I checked some of the balls this morn…” Jastremski wrote to McNally. “The refs f—ed us…a few of them were almost at 16. They didn’t recheck (them) after they put air in them.”
McNally then responded by saying “F– Tom…16 is nothing…wait till next Sunday,” which was obviously sarcasm and McNally’s way of joking that he’s going to screw Brady, who has openly admitted he likes a softer ball.
Before he mentioned the 16 PSI issue to McNally, Jastremski also texted his fiancee about it.
“Ugh…Tom was right,” he wrote. “I just measured some of the balls. They supposed to be 13 lbs… They were like 16. Felt like bricks.”
It’s certainly possible that McNally or Jastremski or someone else has let air out of game balls after they were inspected by officials at some point, but it seems fairly obvious what happened the night the Patriots played the Jets.
Remember how Aaron Rodgers admitted that he likes to turn in footballs that are over-inflated to see if the officials will let air out of them? In all likelihood, the Patriots turned in balls that were under-inflated before their game against the Jets, and the officials put more air in them after measuring the PSI. Since Jastremski was discussing the balls being severely over-inflated the next morning, that means McNally — aka the “Deflator” — obviously was unable to let air out of them after the officials inspected them.
Of course, you could argue that the portion of the conversation where Yastremski mentioned balls being over-inflated by officials was all a lie. That would be convenient.
What’s the point? The NFL rules clearly state that game balls are supposed to be inflated to within 12.5-13.5 PSI. If that’s the case, should officials — like the one who thought he remembered which gauge he used but Wells told him he was wrong — be over-inflating them by 2.5 pounds? If gripping a ball that is roughly 1-1.5 PSI underinflated (here are the numbers) is an advantage, wouldn’t gripping one that is 2.5 PSI overinflated be a serious disadvantage?
Let me guess, Jastremski’s mention of balls that were at 16 PSI is all part of his master plan to cover up the crime, right?
Am I saying the Patriots didn’t deflate game balls before the AFC Championship Game? No. Am I saying someone needs to address why an official allegedly over-inflated a team’s game balls by 2.5 pounds? Yes. For whatever reason, Wells chose not to look into that.
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Brady - 4 games for under-inflated footballs
Ray Rice - 2 games for indisputable video evidence of beating the fuck out of his wife
Brady - 4 games for under-inflated footballs
Ray Rice - 2 games for indisputable video evidence of beating the fuck out of his wife
Panthers/Vikings - Nothing for heating balls on the sideline, on film
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If the league had suspended Brady and fined the team the million. I wouldn't be overly bothered, Brady's suspension will get lowered to 2 or 3 on appeal, the million is relatively minor to an NFL owner. It's the draft pick loss that is the severe and unjustified part of the punishment.
Even when they are punished the Pats still win ...
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
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