The Death Penalty

pdalowsky

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:

Some numbers to support innocent people released due to shitty prosecutions and human inadequacy. And yes now we have DNA but many in jail aren't convicted by DNA and they don't have this saving gift as those released in article below.

If you are okay with death penalty you are okay with a few innocents thrown In to satisfy your thirst for revenge. No debate on this. Just admit it.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/04/justice/prisoner-exonerations-facts-innocence-project/index.html

Here's my question to you:

If we were 100% assured that through forensic science we would never convict anyone wrongfully again... would you...

1. Support the application of the DP in cases such as the Cheshire Murders where bondage, rape, torture and murder of the horrific variety occurred?

2. Refute the application of it and insist on the same sentence drug dealers serve?

If you choose #2... let's be honest... you care much more about the psychotic killers than you do seeking appropriate justice for the event and for Dr. Petit (he himself a former staunch opponent of the DP who abruptly changed his course of thinking once directly affected). No debate on this. Just admit it.

im afraid I'm probably the stereotypical hypocrite when it comes to these questions.

objectively I could never support the punishment.

subjectively (in the shoes of Dr Petit) Im not so sure I would hold up to my beliefs.

that said, emotion cant be the driver of a justice system in a democratic society likes ours.

callen

and I don't allow killers actions to enflame me or bother me. They turn into humans that need to be incarcerated and housed as efficiently as possible. Maybe study them and find out how they ended up this way. .

Thirty Bills Unpaid

callen said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:

Some numbers to support innocent people released due to shitty prosecutions and human inadequacy. And yes now we have DNA but many in jail aren't convicted by DNA and they don't have this saving gift as those released in article below.

If you are okay with death penalty you are okay with a few innocents thrown In to satisfy your thirst for revenge. No debate on this. Just admit it.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/04/justice/prisoner-exonerations-facts-innocence-project/index.html

Here's my question to you:

If we were 100% assured that through forensic science we would never convict anyone wrongfully again... would you...

1. Support the application of the DP in cases such as the Cheshire Murders where bondage, rape, torture and murder of the horrific variety occurred?

2. Refute the application of it and insist on the same sentence drug dealers serve?

If you choose #2... let's be honest... you care much more about the psychotic killers than you do seeking appropriate justice for the event and for Dr. Petit (he himself a former staunch opponent of the DP who abruptly changed his course of thinking once directly affected). No debate on this. Just admit it.

No. There are many reasons I'm against death penalty, would just seem to me that realizing innocents WILL be put to death would cause pause. But no. It's okay to kill a few to get that child rapists. Simple as that. I'm not stretching as are you in your reply.

And forensic science isn't used to convict all, it too can be wrong and evidence can be planted. So there is no way to guarantee guilt using evidence.

There is only one way ONE to ensure innocents aren't put to death.

As discussed in earlier posts we can't allow victims families to dictate what they want. And many forgave the offenders.

No. You stretched. At least be honest about that.

HughFreakingDillon

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

life in prison is hell. utter hell.

It might be.

But being Dr. Petit... or any of the other family members that live daily knowing their children were murdered in horrific fashion would be a Hell far worse. Far worse.

Say nothing of the victims and their final moments.

No, Hugh... sorry man. I'm still not there. Some people have more than earned their sentences of death.

And some have met their end through malicious or incompetent investigative and trial proceedings. This is really brutal.

I have stated many many times how awful it must be for the victims and their families. I didn't in this instance, as it isn't necessary to point out the obvious in every single post. I was responding to a direct point you made, that "prison is too good for them". you seem to think it's a country club, when in fact, it is quite the opposite.

HughFreakingDillon

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:

Some numbers to support innocent people released due to shitty prosecutions and human inadequacy. And yes now we have DNA but many in jail aren't convicted by DNA and they don't have this saving gift as those released in article below.

If you are okay with death penalty you are okay with a few innocents thrown In to satisfy your thirst for revenge. No debate on this. Just admit it.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/04/justice/prisoner-exonerations-facts-innocence-project/index.html

Here's my question to you:

If we were 100% assured that through forensic science we would never convict anyone wrongfully again... would you...

1. Support the application of the DP in cases such as the Cheshire Murders where bondage, rape, torture and murder of the horrific variety occurred?

2. Refute the application of it and insist on the same sentence drug dealers serve?

If you choose #2... let's be honest... you care much more about the psychotic killers than you do seeking appropriate justice for the event and for Dr. Petit (he himself a former staunch opponent of the DP who abruptly changed his course of thinking once directly affected). No debate on this. Just admit it.

3. refute the application of it, but not insist on the same sentence drug dealers serve. apples and oranges.

it's not "caring about psychotic killers". it is absolutely ridiculous to keep claiming this. I am speaking from an objective position. and you HAVE TO. I'm not looking at the victim, I'm not looking at the criminal.

justice + emotion = chaos.

which is why I also disagree with victim impact statements. for the justice system to put, say, a murdered high school coach above, say, a murdered homeless man without family or friends, to me is not blind justice. it's favouritism.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

life in prison is hell. utter hell.

It might be.

But being Dr. Petit... or any of the other family members that live daily knowing their children were murdered in horrific fashion would be a Hell far worse. Far worse.

Say nothing of the victims and their final moments.

No, Hugh... sorry man. I'm still not there. Some people have more than earned their sentences of death.

And some have met their end through malicious or incompetent investigative and trial proceedings. This is really brutal.

I have stated many many times how awful it must be for the victims and their families. I didn't in this instance, as it isn't necessary to point out the obvious in every single post. I was responding to a direct point you made, that "prison is too good for them". you seem to think it's a country club, when in fact, it is quite the opposite.

I said prison is too good for them- which it is. I never said prison is a 'country club'... but even if I did... you said 'prison is utter hell'. Why wouldn't I be able to exaggerate to support my position if you can freely employ the same tactic to support yours?

And in the last post to me you pointed out my- admittedly- absurd statement... but not surprisingly, you never pointed out Callen's absurd statement which prompted my silly comment. I say not surprisingly because 'pro DP people are cool with murdering innocents as long as they get their bloodthirst quenched' fits your narrative- it sat well with you I assume.

You speak of emotion too. Who's the emotional one? The definition of justice as it pertains to sentencing is as follows: the administering of deserved punishment or reward. To frame what I'm about to say... consider fellow countryman, Michael Rafferty, who lurks behind bars as we speak? After snatching Tori Stafford from the streets as a random victim... he raped her twice and after satisfying himself... he tried to crush her with his boots kicking her ribs in. Failing to murder her with his feet, he resorted to a hammer to kill her- proceeding to unceremoniously dump her 8 year old body under a pile of rocks in the middle of the field, go home and shower.

You think 30 years behind bars is the deserved punishment for such a crime? I don't. I think prison is a great place for gangsters who kill each other... jilted lovers that murder in a fit of jealous rage... serial drunk drivers who run over people in crosswalks... and the like. For the murders of the grotesque variety- serial or mass fashion, involving torture, or where children are the victims... warm meals, television, books, and internet usage while killing time is simply not my idea of justice.

pdalowsky

So the court saw sense ... For now

HughFreakingDillon

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

life in prison is hell. utter hell.

It might be.

But being Dr. Petit... or any of the other family members that live daily knowing their children were murdered in horrific fashion would be a Hell far worse. Far worse.

Say nothing of the victims and their final moments.

No, Hugh... sorry man. I'm still not there. Some people have more than earned their sentences of death.

And some have met their end through malicious or incompetent investigative and trial proceedings. This is really brutal.

I have stated many many times how awful it must be for the victims and their families. I didn't in this instance, as it isn't necessary to point out the obvious in every single post. I was responding to a direct point you made, that "prison is too good for them". you seem to think it's a country club, when in fact, it is quite the opposite.

I said prison is too good for them- which it is. I never said prison is a 'country club'... but even if I did... you said 'prison is utter hell'. Why wouldn't I be able to exaggerate to support my position if you can freely employ the same tactic to support yours?

And in the last post to me you pointed out my- admittedly- absurd statement... but not surprisingly, you never pointed out Callen's absurd statement which prompted my silly comment. I say not surprisingly because 'pro DP people are cool with murdering innocents as long as they get their bloodthirst quenched' fits your narrative- it sat well with you I assume.

You speak of emotion too. Who's the emotional one? The definition of justice as it pertains to sentencing is as follows: the administering of deserved punishment or reward. To frame what I'm about to say... consider fellow countryman, Michael Rafferty, who lurks behind bars as we speak? After snatching Tori Stafford from the streets as a random victim... he raped her twice and after satisfying himself... he tried to crush her with his boots kicking her ribs in. Failing to murder her with his feet, he resorted to a hammer to kill her- proceeding to unceremoniously dump her 8 year old body under a pile of rocks in the middle of the field, go home and shower.

You think 30 years behind bars is the deserved punishment for such a crime? I don't. I think prison is a great place for gangsters who kill each other... jilted lovers that murder in a fit of jealous rage... serial drunk drivers who run over people in crosswalks... and the like. For the murders of the grotesque variety- serial or mass fashion, involving torture, or where children are the victims... warm meals, television, books, and internet usage while killing time is simply not my idea of justice.

actually, maybe not in that post, but in several others, you have described the "comforts of prison life", so yes, you have described it as some sort of country club.

you assume wrong. just because I didn't comment on his position, doesn't mean that I agree with it. He has posted that same sentence several times, and I believe many moons ago I addressed it as not being my position. Again, I don't need to address everyone's repeated posts every time it is done.

I wouldn't call it "bloodthirst" (even though you have often described the ways in which you wish these people to be put down, which begs the question, is it?), but I do agree that pro-DPers are able to reconcile with innocents being put to death so that other, seemingly deserving folks, meet the same fate. and I don't get it. I just don't get it.

I think someone who you've described should get life. and when I say life, I mean FOREVER. No release. ever. not 30 years. not 50 years. release the dead body.

just as you believe that my position would change if someone I knew were a victim, so do I believe yours would change if you knew someone on death row you thought were innocent.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

life in prison is hell. utter hell.

It might be.

But being Dr. Petit... or any of the other family members that live daily knowing their children were murdered in horrific fashion would be a Hell far worse. Far worse.

Say nothing of the victims and their final moments.

No, Hugh... sorry man. I'm still not there. Some people have more than earned their sentences of death.

And some have met their end through malicious or incompetent investigative and trial proceedings. This is really brutal.

I have stated many many times how awful it must be for the victims and their families. I didn't in this instance, as it isn't necessary to point out the obvious in every single post. I was responding to a direct point you made, that "prison is too good for them". you seem to think it's a country club, when in fact, it is quite the opposite.

I said prison is too good for them- which it is. I never said prison is a 'country club'... but even if I did... you said 'prison is utter hell'. Why wouldn't I be able to exaggerate to support my position if you can freely employ the same tactic to support yours?

And in the last post to me you pointed out my- admittedly- absurd statement... but not surprisingly, you never pointed out Callen's absurd statement which prompted my silly comment. I say not surprisingly because 'pro DP people are cool with murdering innocents as long as they get their bloodthirst quenched' fits your narrative- it sat well with you I assume.

You speak of emotion too. Who's the emotional one? The definition of justice as it pertains to sentencing is as follows: the administering of deserved punishment or reward. To frame what I'm about to say... consider fellow countryman, Michael Rafferty, who lurks behind bars as we speak? After snatching Tori Stafford from the streets as a random victim... he raped her twice and after satisfying himself... he tried to crush her with his boots kicking her ribs in. Failing to murder her with his feet, he resorted to a hammer to kill her- proceeding to unceremoniously dump her 8 year old body under a pile of rocks in the middle of the field, go home and shower.

You think 30 years behind bars is the deserved punishment for such a crime? I don't. I think prison is a great place for gangsters who kill each other... jilted lovers that murder in a fit of jealous rage... serial drunk drivers who run over people in crosswalks... and the like. For the murders of the grotesque variety- serial or mass fashion, involving torture, or where children are the victims... warm meals, television, books, and internet usage while killing time is simply not my idea of justice.

actually, maybe not in that post, but in several others, you have described the "comforts of prison life", so yes, you have described it as some sort of country club.

you assume wrong. just because I didn't comment on his position, doesn't mean that I agree with it. He has posted that same sentence several times, and I believe many moons ago I addressed it as not being my position. Again, I don't need to address everyone's repeated posts every time it is done.

I wouldn't call it "bloodthirst" (even though you have often described the ways in which you wish these people to be put down, which begs the question, is it?), but I do agree that pro-DPers are able to reconcile with innocents being put to death so that other, seemingly deserving folks, meet the same fate. and I don't get it. I just don't get it.

I think someone who you've described should get life. and when I say life, I mean FOREVER. No release. ever. not 30 years. not 50 years. release the dead body.

just as you believe that my position would change if someone I knew were a victim, so do I believe yours would change if you knew someone on death row you thought were innocent.

To the bolded statement... when have I described in any detail how I'd like to see someone put down? The most graphic I think I have ever been on this forum is when I used the expression 'shit sandwiches' as a suggestion for the Boston Bomber while he spent his time in a cell.

Outside of this... two things:

1. Is Rafferty's sentence 'justice' for Tori Stafford in your mind? Have we determined that 25 years without the possibility of parole is adequate? Does this punishment fit the crime?

2. I'd like to think my position wouldn't change if I knew someone on Death Row. I'd concede that it might. The family of Hayes (one of the Cheshire murderers) want him dead.

HughFreakingDillon

I answered your point 1 in the post you quoted. he should be behind bars until the day he dies.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

HughFreakingDillon said:

I answered your point 1 in the post you quoted. he should be behind bars until the day he dies.

Sorry about that. I guess you did.

Can you clarify when I have often described the ways in which you wish these people to be put down? That's kind of a big assertion to just casually toss out there.

HughFreakingDillon

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I answered your point 1 in the post you quoted. he should be behind bars until the day he dies.

Sorry about that. I guess you did.

Can you clarify when I have often described the ways in which you wish these people to be put down? That's kind of a big assertion to just casually toss out there.

maybe I'm recalling incorrectly, but I honestly believe you have in the past, not in a chadwick way, but just in "this is what these guys deserve" way. But if it came across as the former, my apologies.

pdalowsky

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

life in prison is hell. utter hell.

It might be.

But being Dr. Petit... or any of the other family members that live daily knowing their children were murdered in horrific fashion would be a Hell far worse. Far worse.

Say nothing of the victims and their final moments.

No, Hugh... sorry man. I'm still not there. Some people have more than earned their sentences of death.

And some have met their end through malicious or incompetent investigative and trial proceedings. This is really brutal.

I have stated many many times how awful it must be for the victims and their families. I didn't in this instance, as it isn't necessary to point out the obvious in every single post. I was responding to a direct point you made, that "prison is too good for them". you seem to think it's a country club, when in fact, it is quite the opposite.

I said prison is too good for them- which it is. I never said prison is a 'country club'... but even if I did... you said 'prison is utter hell'. Why wouldn't I be able to exaggerate to support my position if you can freely employ the same tactic to support yours?

And in the last post to me you pointed out my- admittedly- absurd statement... but not surprisingly, you never pointed out Callen's absurd statement which prompted my silly comment. I say not surprisingly because 'pro DP people are cool with murdering innocents as long as they get their bloodthirst quenched' fits your narrative- it sat well with you I assume.

You speak of emotion too. Who's the emotional one? The definition of justice as it pertains to sentencing is as follows: the administering of deserved punishment or reward. To frame what I'm about to say... consider fellow countryman, Michael Rafferty, who lurks behind bars as we speak? After snatching Tori Stafford from the streets as a random victim... he raped her twice and after satisfying himself... he tried to crush her with his boots kicking her ribs in. Failing to murder her with his feet, he resorted to a hammer to kill her- proceeding to unceremoniously dump her 8 year old body under a pile of rocks in the middle of the field, go home and shower.

You think 30 years behind bars is the deserved punishment for such a crime? I don't. I think prison is a great place for gangsters who kill each other... jilted lovers that murder in a fit of jealous rage... serial drunk drivers who run over people in crosswalks... and the like. For the murders of the grotesque variety- serial or mass fashion, involving torture, or where children are the victims... warm meals, television, books, and internet usage while killing time is simply not my idea of justice.

actually, maybe not in that post, but in several others, you have described the "comforts of prison life", so yes, you have described it as some sort of country club.

you assume wrong. just because I didn't comment on his position, doesn't mean that I agree with it. He has posted that same sentence several times, and I believe many moons ago I addressed it as not being my position. Again, I don't need to address everyone's repeated posts every time it is done.

I wouldn't call it "bloodthirst" (even though you have often described the ways in which you wish these people to be put down, which begs the question, is it?), but I do agree that pro-DPers are able to reconcile with innocents being put to death so that other, seemingly deserving folks, meet the same fate. and I don't get it. I just don't get it.

I think someone who you've described should get life. and when I say life, I mean FOREVER. No release. ever. not 30 years. not 50 years. release the dead body.

just as you believe that my position would change if someone I knew were a victim, so do I believe yours would change if you knew someone on death row you thought were innocent.

To the bolded statement... when have I described in any detail how I'd like to see someone put down? The most graphic I think I have ever been on this forum is when I used the expression 'shit sandwiches' as a suggestion for the Boston Bomber while he spent his time in a cell.

Outside of this... two things:

1. Is Rafferty's sentence 'justice' for Tori Stafford in your mind? Have we determined that 25 years without the possibility of parole is adequate? Does this punishment fit the crime?

2. I'd like to think my position wouldn't change if I knew someone on Death Row. I'd concede that it might. The family of Hayes (one of the Cheshire murderers) want him dead.

Point 2 here - I'm not familiar with the Cheshire case but I imagine innocence is not in question so that doesn't really factor in the pertinence of the question posed ?

callen

Jus

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

life in prison is hell. utter hell.

It might be.

But being Dr. Petit... or any of the other family members that live daily knowing their children were murdered in horrific fashion would be a Hell far worse. Far worse.

Say nothing of the victims and their final moments.

No, Hugh... sorry man. I'm still not there. Some people have more than earned their sentences of death.

And some have met their end through malicious or incompetent investigative and trial proceedings. This is really brutal.

I have stated many many times how awful it must be for the victims and their families. I didn't in this instance, as it isn't necessary to point out the obvious in every single post. I was responding to a direct point you made, that "prison is too good for them". you seem to think it's a country club, when in fact, it is quite the opposite.

I said prison is too good for them- which it is. I never said prison is a 'country club'... but even if I did... you said 'prison is utter hell'. Why wouldn't I be able to exaggerate to support my position if you can freely employ the same tactic to support yours?

And in the last post to me you pointed out my- admittedly- absurd statement... but not surprisingly, you never pointed out Callen's absurd statement which prompted my silly comment. I say not surprisingly because 'pro DP people are cool with murdering innocents as long as they get their bloodthirst quenched' fits your narrative- it sat well with you I assume.

You speak of emotion too. Who's the emotional one? The definition of justice as it pertains to sentencing is as follows: the administering of deserved punishment or reward. To frame what I'm about to say... consider fellow countryman, Michael Rafferty, who lurks behind bars as we speak? After snatching Tori Stafford from the streets as a random victim... he raped her twice and after satisfying himself... he tried to crush her with his boots kicking her ribs in. Failing to murder her with his feet, he resorted to a hammer to kill her- proceeding to unceremoniously dump her 8 year old body under a pile of rocks in the middle of the field, go home and shower.

You think 30 years behind bars is the deserved punishment for such a crime? I don't. I think prison is a great place for gangsters who kill each other... jilted lovers that murder in a fit of jealous rage... serial drunk drivers who run over people in crosswalks... and the like. For the murders of the grotesque variety- serial or mass fashion, involving torture, or where children are the victims... warm meals, television, books, and internet usage while killing time is simply not my idea of justice.

My statement stands. It can't be disputed.

"If one is for the death penalty they are okay with a few innocents thrown in the mix".

Thirty Bills Unpaid

callen said:

Jus

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

life in prison is hell. utter hell.

It might be.

But being Dr. Petit... or any of the other family members that live daily knowing their children were murdered in horrific fashion would be a Hell far worse. Far worse.

Say nothing of the victims and their final moments.

No, Hugh... sorry man. I'm still not there. Some people have more than earned their sentences of death.

And some have met their end through malicious or incompetent investigative and trial proceedings. This is really brutal.

I have stated many many times how awful it must be for the victims and their families. I didn't in this instance, as it isn't necessary to point out the obvious in every single post. I was responding to a direct point you made, that "prison is too good for them". you seem to think it's a country club, when in fact, it is quite the opposite.

I said prison is too good for them- which it is. I never said prison is a 'country club'... but even if I did... you said 'prison is utter hell'. Why wouldn't I be able to exaggerate to support my position if you can freely employ the same tactic to support yours?

And in the last post to me you pointed out my- admittedly- absurd statement... but not surprisingly, you never pointed out Callen's absurd statement which prompted my silly comment. I say not surprisingly because 'pro DP people are cool with murdering innocents as long as they get their bloodthirst quenched' fits your narrative- it sat well with you I assume.

You speak of emotion too. Who's the emotional one? The definition of justice as it pertains to sentencing is as follows: the administering of deserved punishment or reward. To frame what I'm about to say... consider fellow countryman, Michael Rafferty, who lurks behind bars as we speak? After snatching Tori Stafford from the streets as a random victim... he raped her twice and after satisfying himself... he tried to crush her with his boots kicking her ribs in. Failing to murder her with his feet, he resorted to a hammer to kill her- proceeding to unceremoniously dump her 8 year old body under a pile of rocks in the middle of the field, go home and shower.

You think 30 years behind bars is the deserved punishment for such a crime? I don't. I think prison is a great place for gangsters who kill each other... jilted lovers that murder in a fit of jealous rage... serial drunk drivers who run over people in crosswalks... and the like. For the murders of the grotesque variety- serial or mass fashion, involving torture, or where children are the victims... warm meals, television, books, and internet usage while killing time is simply not my idea of justice.

My statement stands. It can't be disputed.

"If one is for the death penalty they are okay with a few innocents thrown in the mix".

You're flawed bit of nonsense has been disputed. A+B does not equal C when A and B are not exact- yielding multiple sums.

What can't be disputed is you throw it out there to agitate. I'm not biting any more.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

pdalowsky said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

life in prison is hell. utter hell.

It might be.

But being Dr. Petit... or any of the other family members that live daily knowing their children were murdered in horrific fashion would be a Hell far worse. Far worse.

Say nothing of the victims and their final moments.

No, Hugh... sorry man. I'm still not there. Some people have more than earned their sentences of death.

And some have met their end through malicious or incompetent investigative and trial proceedings. This is really brutal.

I have stated many many times how awful it must be for the victims and their families. I didn't in this instance, as it isn't necessary to point out the obvious in every single post. I was responding to a direct point you made, that "prison is too good for them". you seem to think it's a country club, when in fact, it is quite the opposite.

I said prison is too good for them- which it is. I never said prison is a 'country club'... but even if I did... you said 'prison is utter hell'. Why wouldn't I be able to exaggerate to support my position if you can freely employ the same tactic to support yours?

And in the last post to me you pointed out my- admittedly- absurd statement... but not surprisingly, you never pointed out Callen's absurd statement which prompted my silly comment. I say not surprisingly because 'pro DP people are cool with murdering innocents as long as they get their bloodthirst quenched' fits your narrative- it sat well with you I assume.

You speak of emotion too. Who's the emotional one? The definition of justice as it pertains to sentencing is as follows: the administering of deserved punishment or reward. To frame what I'm about to say... consider fellow countryman, Michael Rafferty, who lurks behind bars as we speak? After snatching Tori Stafford from the streets as a random victim... he raped her twice and after satisfying himself... he tried to crush her with his boots kicking her ribs in. Failing to murder her with his feet, he resorted to a hammer to kill her- proceeding to unceremoniously dump her 8 year old body under a pile of rocks in the middle of the field, go home and shower.

You think 30 years behind bars is the deserved punishment for such a crime? I don't. I think prison is a great place for gangsters who kill each other... jilted lovers that murder in a fit of jealous rage... serial drunk drivers who run over people in crosswalks... and the like. For the murders of the grotesque variety- serial or mass fashion, involving torture, or where children are the victims... warm meals, television, books, and internet usage while killing time is simply not my idea of justice.

actually, maybe not in that post, but in several others, you have described the "comforts of prison life", so yes, you have described it as some sort of country club.

you assume wrong. just because I didn't comment on his position, doesn't mean that I agree with it. He has posted that same sentence several times, and I believe many moons ago I addressed it as not being my position. Again, I don't need to address everyone's repeated posts every time it is done.

I wouldn't call it "bloodthirst" (even though you have often described the ways in which you wish these people to be put down, which begs the question, is it?), but I do agree that pro-DPers are able to reconcile with innocents being put to death so that other, seemingly deserving folks, meet the same fate. and I don't get it. I just don't get it.

I think someone who you've described should get life. and when I say life, I mean FOREVER. No release. ever. not 30 years. not 50 years. release the dead body.

just as you believe that my position would change if someone I knew were a victim, so do I believe yours would change if you knew someone on death row you thought were innocent.

To the bolded statement... when have I described in any detail how I'd like to see someone put down? The most graphic I think I have ever been on this forum is when I used the expression 'shit sandwiches' as a suggestion for the Boston Bomber while he spent his time in a cell.

Outside of this... two things:

1. Is Rafferty's sentence 'justice' for Tori Stafford in your mind? Have we determined that 25 years without the possibility of parole is adequate? Does this punishment fit the crime?

2. I'd like to think my position wouldn't change if I knew someone on Death Row. I'd concede that it might. The family of Hayes (one of the Cheshire murderers) want him dead.

Point 2 here - I'm not familiar with the Cheshire case but I imagine innocence is not in question so that doesn't really factor in the pertinence of the question posed ?

No doubt of guilt. Dr. Petit- a one time staunch opponent of the DP- lived to identify them and plea for a sentence of death.

They didn't need him to testify though- the two scumbags were caught leaving the house high fiving each other after raping the inhabitants and leaving them tied up to be consumed by the flames they had set.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

callen said:

and I don't allow killers actions to enflame me or bother me. They turn into humans that need to be incarcerated and housed as efficiently as possible. Maybe study them and find out how they ended up this way. .

You speak from privilege. You haven't had your children or wife wrested from you- living every day knowing the fates they suffered at the hands of some piece of shit that plays ping pong daily and answers emails sent from demented fans.

It's easy to be impartial when you aren't invested.

HughFreakingDillon

Glossip execution halted 3 hours before it was set to happen. The court gave him a 2 week reprieve to look at new evidence. Sept 30 is the new date.

callen

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:

Jus

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

life in prison is hell. utter hell.

It might be.

But being Dr. Petit... or any of the other family members that live daily knowing their children were murdered in horrific fashion would be a Hell far worse. Far worse.

Say nothing of the victims and their final moments.

No, Hugh... sorry man. I'm still not there. Some people have more than earned their sentences of death.

And some have met their end through malicious or incompetent investigative and trial proceedings. This is really brutal.

I have stated many many times how awful it must be for the victims and their families. I didn't in this instance, as it isn't necessary to point out the obvious in every single post. I was responding to a direct point you made, that "prison is too good for them". you seem to think it's a country club, when in fact, it is quite the opposite.

I said prison is too good for them- which it is. I never said prison is a 'country club'... but even if I did... you said 'prison is utter hell'. Why wouldn't I be able to exaggerate to support my position if you can freely employ the same tactic to support yours?

And in the last post to me you pointed out my- admittedly- absurd statement... but not surprisingly, you never pointed out Callen's absurd statement which prompted my silly comment. I say not surprisingly because 'pro DP people are cool with murdering innocents as long as they get their bloodthirst quenched' fits your narrative- it sat well with you I assume.

You speak of emotion too. Who's the emotional one? The definition of justice as it pertains to sentencing is as follows: the administering of deserved punishment or reward. To frame what I'm about to say... consider fellow countryman, Michael Rafferty, who lurks behind bars as we speak? After snatching Tori Stafford from the streets as a random victim... he raped her twice and after satisfying himself... he tried to crush her with his boots kicking her ribs in. Failing to murder her with his feet, he resorted to a hammer to kill her- proceeding to unceremoniously dump her 8 year old body under a pile of rocks in the middle of the field, go home and shower.

You think 30 years behind bars is the deserved punishment for such a crime? I don't. I think prison is a great place for gangsters who kill each other... jilted lovers that murder in a fit of jealous rage... serial drunk drivers who run over people in crosswalks... and the like. For the murders of the grotesque variety- serial or mass fashion, involving torture, or where children are the victims... warm meals, television, books, and internet usage while killing time is simply not my idea of justice.

My statement stands. It can't be disputed.

"If one is for the death penalty they are okay with a few innocents thrown in the mix".

You're flawed bit of nonsense has been disputed. A+B does not equal C when A and B are not exact- yielding multiple sums.

What can't be disputed is you throw it out there to agitate. I'm not biting any more.

Realize my position is uncomfortable. My position though is proven every time a prisoner is released. You got me back on this when you gave support today to stop an execution. How ironic.

It is black and white. There is no grey. The justice system is not perfect. Far from it. Want to execute? Then you are okay with the risks of killing innocent people. Fight and scramble all you want. Ultimately you know.

Agitation is by product not intent.

oftenreading

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:

Some numbers to support innocent people released due to shitty prosecutions and human inadequacy. And yes now we have DNA but many in jail aren't convicted by DNA and they don't have this saving gift as those released in article below.

If you are okay with death penalty you are okay with a few innocents thrown In to satisfy your thirst for revenge. No debate on this. Just admit it.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/04/justice/prisoner-exonerations-facts-innocence-project/index.html

Here's my question to you:

If we were 100% assured that through forensic science we would never convict anyone wrongfully again... would you...

1. Support the application of the DP in cases such as the Cheshire Murders where bondage, rape, torture and murder of the horrific variety occurred?

2. Refute the application of it and insist on the same sentence drug dealers serve?

If you choose #2... let's be honest... you care much more about the psychotic killers than you do seeking appropriate justice for the event and for Dr. Petit (he himself a former staunch opponent of the DP who abruptly changed his course of thinking once directly affected). No debate on this. Just admit it.

3. refute the application of it, but not insist on the same sentence drug dealers serve. apples and oranges.

it's not "caring about psychotic killers". it is absolutely ridiculous to keep claiming this. I am speaking from an objective position. and you HAVE TO. I'm not looking at the victim, I'm not looking at the criminal.

justice + emotion = chaos.

which is why I also disagree with victim impact statements. for the justice system to put, say, a murdered high school coach above, say, a murdered homeless man without family or friends, to me is not blind justice. it's favouritism.

Yes, I completely agree with the bolded portion. I think that victim impact statements generally do not serve justice. The fact that some victims or family members happen to be more eloquent, or better connected, or more comfortable speaking up in court or to crowds of media should in no way affect the sentence handed down to the perpetrator. that simply makes victims/family doubly victimized. And why do the victim impact statements only seem to be used to make a sentence harsher? What if, for instance, a victim of a crime whose belief system valued forgiveness and compassion submitted a victim impact statement asking that the perpetrator not be punished - would that be given any credence? And if not, why not?