The Death Penalty

JimmyV

oftenreading said:

JimmyV said:

Putting death penalty opponents on death penalty juries, making death penalty sentences impossible to get, would be skewing the pool. Not the other way around. Because someone can vote for the death penalty doesn't mean they will, but because someone cannot vote for the death penalty does mean they won't.

Both options lead to bias of the result, one way or the other. Since execution is a currently available penalty this is likely the way it has to be, but it is disingenuous to claim there is no bias introduced when you start with a random pool of people and then deliberately remove all people opposed to a particular outcome. Of course it doesn't guarantee that all of those involved will automatically vote for the DP, but it does alter the discussion. It also doesn't actually reflect the larger opinion, since current support for the DP is at about 62%, not 100%.

One leads to an ASSURANCE of the result, not a bias. If you are unable to vote for the death penalty then you will not vote for the death penalty. Therefore, no unanimous death penalty decision can be reached and no death penalty sentence can be handed down. That is assuring a particular result will not happen, not stacking the deck or increasing the probability one way or the other.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

oftenreading said:

JimmyV said:

Putting death penalty opponents on death penalty juries, making death penalty sentences impossible to get, would be skewing the pool. Not the other way around. Because someone can vote for the death penalty doesn't mean they will, but because someone cannot vote for the death penalty does mean they won't.

Both options lead to bias of the result, one way or the other. Since execution is a currently available penalty this is likely the way it has to be, but it is disingenuous to claim there is no bias introduced when you start with a random pool of people and then deliberately remove all people opposed to a particular outcome. Of course it doesn't guarantee that all of those involved will automatically vote for the DP, but it does alter the discussion. It also doesn't actually reflect the larger opinion, since current support for the DP is at about 62%, not 100%.

But as it has been stated, the DP comes into play 'after' the process has played out.

The jurors aren't there to try and make the trial details 'fit' a sentence of death. They are there initially to determine level of guilt. Just because they might approve of the DP, it doesn't mean they cannot be a suitable juror.

The 'bias' is likely inherent to some degree with regards to approving of the sentence sought after guilt is established, but if the prosecution is seeking a DP verdict and is successful with their case... they shouldn't be stymied at the point of sentencing because somebody is opposed to it. Not while the DP is a legally accepted measure of punishment for a crime.

callen

hedonist said:

Thirst for revenge, said in the same breath as "no judging"?

Thirty and I are cool. He gets pissed at me but know we'll share a beer and laugh one day.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

callen said:

hedonist said:

Thirst for revenge, said in the same breath as "no judging"?

Thirty and I are cool. He gets pissed at me but know we'll share a beer and laugh one day.

I wouldn't say 'pissed'... although you have managed to irritate the hell out of me with your latest assault on my mindset lol!

Jason P

I'm surprised this thread hasn't seen any action ... I guess I'll be the one to throw fuel on the fire ...

Nebraska lawmakers passed a bill that ends the death penalty in the state. Nebraska of all places! The "Big Red" state.

The interesting thing is that it passed because Christian lawmakers finally realized that it was hypocritical to be against abortion and be for the death penalty. Which I've pointed out is pure hypocracy in the past.

Anywho, I don't have any skin in this game, just thought it was interesting. I will still be for promoting the creation of dinosaur island for a drop-off point for killers and rapists. Let T Rex judge their fate ....

JimmyV

One by one I think all states will outlaw it now. There just isn't the support. More importantly, to me, is that most states that still use it do so recklessly. Executions should not be common.

JimmyV

Nebraska Governor has vetoed the bill.

JimmyV

There are currently ten inmates on death row in Nebraska. TEN. In NEBRASKA. This is an example of a state not using the death penalty correctly.

HughFreakingDillon

JimmyV said:

One by one I think all states will outlaw it now. There just isn't the support. More importantly, to me, is that most states that still use it do so recklessly. Executions should not be common.

there isn't the support? really? that would surprise me. even a slim majority of Canadians want it back.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2012/02/08/majority_of_canadians_support_return_of_death_penalty_poll_finds.html

JimmyV

HughFreakingDillon said:

JimmyV said:

One by one I think all states will outlaw it now. There just isn't the support. More importantly, to me, is that most states that still use it do so recklessly. Executions should not be common.

there isn't the support? really? that would surprise me. even a slim majority of Canadians want it back.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2012/02/08/majority_of_canadians_support_return_of_death_penalty_poll_finds.html

I could be wrong of course but I just don't get the sense that there is anymore. Part of that might be living in Massachusetts, though. Time will tell but I do think this is something on the way out at the state level.

Also, I do think the idea that life in prison could be worse is gaining steam. That is reflected in your article:



But Mukerji said the poll also reveals that it is “not a black and white” issue for many Canadians. Given the choice of supporting the death penalty or life imprisonment, 50 per cent chose the latter, the survey found.

“We ask the question in two ways — do you support or oppose the death penalty — and in that context people really do support it,” he said. But when the option of life imprisonment is introduced as an option for those convicted of murder, “50 per cent actually say they would prefer life in prison.”

callen

Jimmy. In Texas and we want to execute shoplifters. So yeah think it's a geographical thing.

The Nebraska vote gave me hope then............the Veto. Arghhhh.

JimmyV

The veto has been overridden. The death penalty has been has been outlawed in Nebraska.

HughFreakingDillon

JimmyV said:

The veto has been overridden. The death penalty has been has been outlawed in Nebraska.

how does that work?? that's awesome! I was just thinking that one man should not be able to veto anything. that's incredible!

JimmyV

HughFreakingDillon said:

JimmyV said:

The veto has been overridden. The death penalty has been has been outlawed in Nebraska.

how does that work?? that's awesome! I was just thinking that one man should not be able to veto anything. that's incredible!

Varies from state to state and at the federal level, but essentially:

1) The legislature passes the bill and sends it to the governor/president

2) The governor/president either signs it into law or vetoes

3) If there is a veto, the legislature can override that veto if a certain percentage of members vote in favor (in Nebraska's case it took 30 senators) and at that point the bill becomes law.

Checks and balances.

callen

JimmyV said:

The veto has been overridden. The death penalty has been has been outlawed in Nebraska.

Fuck yeah.

oftenreading

^^^^ Well, that's one bright point in an otherwise not-so-bright day I'm having

josevolution

Led by the GOP caucus good work ...

otter

Why is gay rights more important than the death penalty?

How is the government still killing people while.............

oftenreading

otter said:

Why is gay rights more important than the death penalty?

How is the government still killing people while.............

Do you see the issues as being related, otter, or are you just speaking to the relative energy being put into advocacy/protests on the part of gay rights vs. abolition of the death penalty?

Thirty Bills Unpaid

otter said:

Why is gay rights more important than the death penalty?

How is the government still killing people while.............

You make it sound as if the government is randomly selecting people for execution. I'm not so sure trivializing some of the horrific acts some 'people' on death row as you have is appropriate.

You do realize that some of these 'people' have raped, tortured, and murdered children... yes? In many people's minds... these 'people' deserve a punishment a little more severe than the punishment we typically dole out to drug smugglers and car thieves.

A gay rights movement concerns itself with establishing equality for people who have done nothing to anyone outside of differing from the 'acceptable' sexual orientation.

I'll spend my energies advocating for innocent people discriminated against before I'd spend an ounce of energy advocating for people who rape and murder infants.