The Death Penalty

callen

Thirty come on over. I made the switch and now at peace

Thirty Bills Unpaid

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Innocent people sentenced to death is horrific, but this situation speaks to the processes before sentencing. The penalty phase is after the error has been made. If you don't want innocent people executed.. then don't wrongly convict- be thorough in the investigative and trial processes. But in my mind... the fact to the matter is as follows: some people commit crimes so heinous that death is an appropriate sentence for them.

but it's all part of the same process. they are not independent processes. they are seperate, but not independent. you can't seperate the two and blame the part that doesn't work. especially if the part that doesn't work has a direct influence on the part you think is necessary.

in any other facet of life, if step 2 is flawed, you don't keep going to step 3, you stop further steps until step 2 is no longer flawed.

The penalty incurred is not a process- it's a product. I don't see how one can hold the DP even remotely responsible for wrongful convictions. The investigative and trial processes bear the entire weight of responsibility for a wrongful conviction.

The irreversibility of the DP speaks to managing the flaws inherent in the investigative and trial processes. And I can see how one can argue that the removal of it safeguards the mistakes made in the aforementioned processes.

With that said... the scumbags fleeing the scene in the Cheshire murders didn't leave any doubt about their guilt. And their crimes: kidnapping, bondage, rape, and murder (of the horrific variety) warranted a penalty that reflected the brutality of their work.

HughFreakingDillon

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Innocent people sentenced to death is horrific, but this situation speaks to the processes before sentencing. The penalty phase is after the error has been made. If you don't want innocent people executed.. then don't wrongly convict- be thorough in the investigative and trial processes. But in my mind... the fact to the matter is as follows: some people commit crimes so heinous that death is an appropriate sentence for them.

but it's all part of the same process. they are not independent processes. they are seperate, but not independent. you can't seperate the two and blame the part that doesn't work. especially if the part that doesn't work has a direct influence on the part you think is necessary.

in any other facet of life, if step 2 is flawed, you don't keep going to step 3, you stop further steps until step 2 is no longer flawed.

The penalty incurred is not a process- it's a product. I don't see how one can hold the DP even remotely responsible for wrongful convictions. The investigative and trial processes bear the entire weight of responsibility for a wrongful conviction.

The irreversibility of the DP speaks to managing the flaws inherent in the investigative and trial processes. And I can see how one can argue that the removal of it safeguards the mistakes made in the aforementioned processes.

With that said... the scumbags fleeing the scene in the Cheshire murders didn't leave any doubt about their guilt. And their crimes: kidnapping, bondage, rape, and murder (of the horrific variety) warranted a penalty that reflected the brutality of their work.

semantics. if it is a product of a flawed process, which it is and you agree that it is, you cease production. simple as that. the DP isn't a vehicle you can recall.

and innocence or guilt is not my only problem with it, as we all know.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Innocent people sentenced to death is horrific, but this situation speaks to the processes before sentencing. The penalty phase is after the error has been made. If you don't want innocent people executed.. then don't wrongly convict- be thorough in the investigative and trial processes. But in my mind... the fact to the matter is as follows: some people commit crimes so heinous that death is an appropriate sentence for them.

but it's all part of the same process. they are not independent processes. they are seperate, but not independent. you can't seperate the two and blame the part that doesn't work. especially if the part that doesn't work has a direct influence on the part you think is necessary.

in any other facet of life, if step 2 is flawed, you don't keep going to step 3, you stop further steps until step 2 is no longer flawed.

The penalty incurred is not a process- it's a product. I don't see how one can hold the DP even remotely responsible for wrongful convictions. The investigative and trial processes bear the entire weight of responsibility for a wrongful conviction.

The irreversibility of the DP speaks to managing the flaws inherent in the investigative and trial processes. And I can see how one can argue that the removal of it safeguards the mistakes made in the aforementioned processes.

With that said... the scumbags fleeing the scene in the Cheshire murders didn't leave any doubt about their guilt. And their crimes: kidnapping, bondage, rape, and murder (of the horrific variety) warranted a penalty that reflected the brutality of their work.

semantics. if it is a product of a flawed process, which it is and you agree that it is, you cease production. simple as that. the DP isn't a vehicle you can recall.

and innocence or guilt is not my only problem with it, as we all know.

It's not entirely flawed.

There are errors made and these errors beg for refinements of some sort, but the penalties attached to any verdicts are not responsible for generating the errors made.

And a horrific crime isn't something you ignore either. I understand you feel differently than me on this, but life in prison is simply too good for some in my opinion.

HughFreakingDillon

life in prison is hell. utter hell.

besides that, I have no idea how someone can reconcile that the flaws in the system that is directly leading to an incorrect decision, leading to the deaths of innocents, is not the cause of it. that simply does not compute.

can you imagine if a car (or any) company operated like that and someone died as a result? they'd be sued into oblivion and jailed. when QA finds a flaw, they send it back to development to correct it before releasing the product into production.

HughFreakingDillon

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Innocent people sentenced to death is horrific, but this situation speaks to the processes before sentencing. The penalty phase is after the error has been made. If you don't want innocent people executed.. then don't wrongly convict- be thorough in the investigative and trial processes. But in my mind... the fact to the matter is as follows: some people commit crimes so heinous that death is an appropriate sentence for them.

but it's all part of the same process. they are not independent processes. they are seperate, but not independent. you can't seperate the two and blame the part that doesn't work. especially if the part that doesn't work has a direct influence on the part you think is necessary.

in any other facet of life, if step 2 is flawed, you don't keep going to step 3, you stop further steps until step 2 is no longer flawed.

The penalty incurred is not a process- it's a product. I don't see how one can hold the DP even remotely responsible for wrongful convictions. The investigative and trial processes bear the entire weight of responsibility for a wrongful conviction.

The irreversibility of the DP speaks to managing the flaws inherent in the investigative and trial processes. And I can see how one can argue that the removal of it safeguards the mistakes made in the aforementioned processes.

With that said... the scumbags fleeing the scene in the Cheshire murders didn't leave any doubt about their guilt. And their crimes: kidnapping, bondage, rape, and murder (of the horrific variety) warranted a penalty that reflected the brutality of their work.

semantics. if it is a product of a flawed process, which it is and you agree that it is, you cease production. simple as that. the DP isn't a vehicle you can recall.

and innocence or guilt is not my only problem with it, as we all know.

It's not entirely flawed.

There are errors made and these errors beg for refinements of some sort, but the penalties attached to any verdicts are not responsible for generating the errors made.

And a horrific crime isn't something you ignore either. I understand you feel differently than me on this, but life in prison is simply too good for some in my opinion.

it's flawed enough that innocent people die as a result. that's enough for me.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

HughFreakingDillon said:

life in prison is hell. utter hell.

It might be.

But being Dr. Petit... or any of the other family members that live daily knowing their children were murdered in horrific fashion would be a Hell far worse. Far worse.

Say nothing of the victims and their final moments.

No, Hugh... sorry man. I'm still not there. Some people have more than earned their sentences of death.

And some have met their end through malicious or incompetent investigative and trial proceedings. This is really brutal.

callen

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Innocent people sentenced to death is horrific, but this situation speaks to the processes before sentencing. The penalty phase is after the error has been made. If you don't want innocent people executed.. then don't wrongly convict- be thorough in the investigative and trial processes. But in my mind... the fact to the matter is as follows: some people commit crimes so heinous that death is an appropriate sentence for them.

but it's all part of the same process. they are not independent processes. they are seperate, but not independent. you can't seperate the two and blame the part that doesn't work. especially if the part that doesn't work has a direct influence on the part you think is necessary.

in any other facet of life, if step 2 is flawed, you don't keep going to step 3, you stop further steps until step 2 is no longer flawed.

The penalty incurred is not a process- it's a product. I don't see how one can hold the DP even remotely responsible for wrongful convictions. The investigative and trial processes bear the entire weight of responsibility for a wrongful conviction.

The irreversibility of the DP speaks to managing the flaws inherent in the investigative and trial processes. And I can see how one can argue that the removal of it safeguards the mistakes made in the aforementioned processes.

With that said... the scumbags fleeing the scene in the Cheshire murders didn't leave any doubt about their guilt. And their crimes: kidnapping, bondage, rape, and murder (of the horrific variety) warranted a penalty that reflected the brutality of their work.

semantics. if it is a product of a flawed process, which it is and you agree that it is, you cease production. simple as that. the DP isn't a vehicle you can recall.

and innocence or guilt is not my only problem with it, as we all know.

It's not entirely flawed.

There are errors made and these errors beg for refinements of some sort, but the penalties attached to any verdicts are not responsible for generating the errors made.

And a horrific crime isn't something you ignore either. I understand you feel differently than me on this, but life in prison is simply too good for some in my opinion.

Human nature guarantees flaws. Death penalty means innocents will die. Period. End if story. So if you are for death penalty you are okay with few innocents dying to ensure all the baddies get it. There is no debating this. Admit your okay with few innocents dying. And Be done with it.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

callen said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Innocent people sentenced to death is horrific, but this situation speaks to the processes before sentencing. The penalty phase is after the error has been made. If you don't want innocent people executed.. then don't wrongly convict- be thorough in the investigative and trial processes. But in my mind... the fact to the matter is as follows: some people commit crimes so heinous that death is an appropriate sentence for them.

but it's all part of the same process. they are not independent processes. they are seperate, but not independent. you can't seperate the two and blame the part that doesn't work. especially if the part that doesn't work has a direct influence on the part you think is necessary.

in any other facet of life, if step 2 is flawed, you don't keep going to step 3, you stop further steps until step 2 is no longer flawed.

The penalty incurred is not a process- it's a product. I don't see how one can hold the DP even remotely responsible for wrongful convictions. The investigative and trial processes bear the entire weight of responsibility for a wrongful conviction.

The irreversibility of the DP speaks to managing the flaws inherent in the investigative and trial processes. And I can see how one can argue that the removal of it safeguards the mistakes made in the aforementioned processes.

With that said... the scumbags fleeing the scene in the Cheshire murders didn't leave any doubt about their guilt. And their crimes: kidnapping, bondage, rape, and murder (of the horrific variety) warranted a penalty that reflected the brutality of their work.

semantics. if it is a product of a flawed process, which it is and you agree that it is, you cease production. simple as that. the DP isn't a vehicle you can recall.

and innocence or guilt is not my only problem with it, as we all know.

It's not entirely flawed.

There are errors made and these errors beg for refinements of some sort, but the penalties attached to any verdicts are not responsible for generating the errors made.

And a horrific crime isn't something you ignore either. I understand you feel differently than me on this, but life in prison is simply too good for some in my opinion.

Human nature guarantees flaws. Death penalty means innocents will die. Period. End if story. So if you are for death penalty you are okay with few innocents dying to ensure all the baddies get it. There is no debating this. Admit your okay with few innocents dying. And Be done with it.

You've said this a few times now, Callen- obviously you've figured out copy and paste feature.

No. No I'm not okay with innocents dying. I've spoken about this several times so... as you searched your previous posts to 'copy and paste'... search my previous posts and see where I've spoken to this and what conditions I saw to consider the DP.

PJ_Soul

Last-12-Exit said:

A South Carolina bill wants to add the firing squad to the list of ways to kill inmates in the state. This is coming about because the drugs used in lethal injection expired in 2013 and the companies that sell the drugs don't want to open the door for harassment. The default mode of execution in the state is lethal injection unless the inmate specifically asked for the electric chair.

http://www.goupstate.com/article/20150422/wire/150429922

Firing squad. Wow.

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Innocent people sentenced to death is horrific, but this situation speaks to the processes before sentencing. The penalty phase is after the error has been made. If you don't want innocent people executed.. then don't wrongly convict- be thorough in the investigative and trial processes. But in my mind... the fact to the matter is as follows: some people commit crimes so heinous that death is an appropriate sentence for them.

but it's all part of the same process. they are not independent processes. they are seperate, but not independent. you can't seperate the two and blame the part that doesn't work. especially if the part that doesn't work has a direct influence on the part you think is necessary.

in any other facet of life, if step 2 is flawed, you don't keep going to step 3, you stop further steps until step 2 is no longer flawed.

The penalty incurred is not a process- it's a product. I don't see how one can hold the DP even remotely responsible for wrongful convictions. The investigative and trial processes bear the entire weight of responsibility for a wrongful conviction.

The irreversibility of the DP speaks to managing the flaws inherent in the investigative and trial processes. And I can see how one can argue that the removal of it safeguards the mistakes made in the aforementioned processes.

With that said... the scumbags fleeing the scene in the Cheshire murders didn't leave any doubt about their guilt. And their crimes: kidnapping, bondage, rape, and murder (of the horrific variety) warranted a penalty that reflected the brutality of their work.

semantics. if it is a product of a flawed process, which it is and you agree that it is, you cease production. simple as that. the DP isn't a vehicle you can recall.

and innocence or guilt is not my only problem with it, as we all know.

It's not entirely flawed.

There are errors made and these errors beg for refinements of some sort, but the penalties attached to any verdicts are not responsible for generating the errors made.

And a horrific crime isn't something you ignore either. I understand you feel differently than me on this, but life in prison is simply too good for some in my opinion.

it's flawed enough that innocent people die as a result. that's enough for me.

Me too.
It's either flawed or it's completely infallible. And I think we can all agree that police forces and the criminal justice system are far from infallible. Until they are, the death penalty is 100% wrong in my mind.

PJfanwillneverleave1

HughFreakingDillon said:

life in prison is hell. utter hell.

Unless you have been there then you really can't state that as being true.

edit - grammar

rgambs

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

life in prison is hell. utter hell.

Unless you have been there then you really can't state that as being true.

edit - grammar

I don't think that is true at all. There are plenty of credible sources of information that one could use to make that determination, enough that it becomes pretty much common knowledge. Do you not have prison documentaries in Canada?
Do you need to go to Antarctica to state that it is cold?

pdalowsky

we are now at the stage of the death penalty sentence that has always bothered me, the dayof execution is upon him and how the fuck does he start to comprehend that when he wakes up that is it? during that waking day he will stop breathing. meanwhile behind the scenes there is a truck load of posturing going on, applications, hearings, desperate attempts that might actually prolong his life if successful - all of which goes on away from him. The clock ticks closer to 3pm, and hes none the wiser.

I know some of these guys who take the walk are absolute monsters and don't deserve any sympathy, but that is the bit that always troubles me the most. Its a form of torture, and in a case as uncertain as todays its really not something I can start to get to grips with. I hear all the comments before about child killers caught at the scene and all that, and I get the sentiment around those comments, but there comes a time when we really have to be better than them.

For now, a potentially innocent man, will be sat alone, waiting for his fate, conscious of every minute ticking by.......I don't know how the human mind can deal with that.

callen

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Innocent people sentenced to death is horrific, but this situation speaks to the processes before sentencing. The penalty phase is after the error has been made. If you don't want innocent people executed.. then don't wrongly convict- be thorough in the investigative and trial processes. But in my mind... the fact to the matter is as follows: some people commit crimes so heinous that death is an appropriate sentence for them.

but it's all part of the same process. they are not independent processes. they are seperate, but not independent. you can't seperate the two and blame the part that doesn't work. especially if the part that doesn't work has a direct influence on the part you think is necessary.

in any other facet of life, if step 2 is flawed, you don't keep going to step 3, you stop further steps until step 2 is no longer flawed.

The penalty incurred is not a process- it's a product. I don't see how one can hold the DP even remotely responsible for wrongful convictions. The investigative and trial processes bear the entire weight of responsibility for a wrongful conviction.

The irreversibility of the DP speaks to managing the flaws inherent in the investigative and trial processes. And I can see how one can argue that the removal of it safeguards the mistakes made in the aforementioned processes.

With that said... the scumbags fleeing the scene in the Cheshire murders didn't leave any doubt about their guilt. And their crimes: kidnapping, bondage, rape, and murder (of the horrific variety) warranted a penalty that reflected the brutality of their work.

semantics. if it is a product of a flawed process, which it is and you agree that it is, you cease production. simple as that. the DP isn't a vehicle you can recall.

and innocence or guilt is not my only problem with it, as we all know.

It's not entirely flawed.

There are errors made and these errors beg for refinements of some sort, but the penalties attached to any verdicts are not responsible for generating the errors made.

And a horrific crime isn't something you ignore either. I understand you feel differently than me on this, but life in prison is simply too good for some in my opinion.

Human nature guarantees flaws. Death penalty means innocents will die. Period. End if story. So if you are for death penalty you are okay with few innocents dying to ensure all the baddies get it. There is no debating this. Admit your okay with few innocents dying. And Be done with it.

You've said this a few times now, Callen- obviously you've figured out copy and paste feature.

No. No I'm not okay with innocents dying. I've spoken about this several times so... as you searched your previous posts to 'copy and paste'... search my previous posts and see where I've spoken to this and what conditions I saw to consider the DP.

No I re type each time and again pointed this Fact out as it relates to the current topic.

There are so many reasons DP is wrong. And see no benefit. None. Well other than satisfying craving for revenge. Hmmm probably same feeling many killers have. Ironic. Sadly.

callen

rgambs said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

life in prison is hell. utter hell.

Unless you have been there then you really can't state that as being true.

edit - grammar

I don't think that is true at all. There are plenty of credible sources of information that one could use to make that determination, enough that it becomes pretty much common knowledge. Do you not have prison documentaries in Canada?
Do you need to go to Antarctica to state that it is cold?

Ah but hell is a figment of the imagination.

callen

Some numbers to support innocent people released due to shitty prosecutions and human inadequacy. And yes now we have DNA but many in jail aren't convicted by DNA and they don't have this saving gift as those released in article below.

If you are okay with death penalty you are okay with a few innocents thrown In to satisfy your thirst for revenge. No debate on this. Just admit it.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/04/justice/prisoner-exonerations-facts-innocence-project/index.html

Thirty Bills Unpaid

callen said:

Some numbers to support innocent people released due to shitty prosecutions and human inadequacy. And yes now we have DNA but many in jail aren't convicted by DNA and they don't have this saving gift as those released in article below.

If you are okay with death penalty you are okay with a few innocents thrown In to satisfy your thirst for revenge. No debate on this. Just admit it.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/04/justice/prisoner-exonerations-facts-innocence-project/index.html

Here's my question to you:

If we were 100% assured that through forensic science we would never convict anyone wrongfully again... would you...

1. Support the application of the DP in cases such as the Cheshire Murders where bondage, rape, torture and murder of the horrific variety occurred?

2. Refute the application of it and insist on the same sentence drug dealers serve?

If you choose #2... let's be honest... you care much more about the psychotic killers than you do seeking appropriate justice for the event and for Dr. Petit (he himself a former staunch opponent of the DP who abruptly changed his course of thinking once directly affected). No debate on this. Just admit it.

callen

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:

Some numbers to support innocent people released due to shitty prosecutions and human inadequacy. And yes now we have DNA but many in jail aren't convicted by DNA and they don't have this saving gift as those released in article below.

If you are okay with death penalty you are okay with a few innocents thrown In to satisfy your thirst for revenge. No debate on this. Just admit it.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/04/justice/prisoner-exonerations-facts-innocence-project/index.html

Here's my question to you:

If we were 100% assured that through forensic science we would never convict anyone wrongfully again... would you...

1. Support the application of the DP in cases such as the Cheshire Murders where bondage, rape, torture and murder of the horrific variety occurred?

2. Refute the application of it and insist on the same sentence drug dealers serve?

If you choose #2... let's be honest... you care much more about the psychotic killers than you do seeking appropriate justice for the event and for Dr. Petit (he himself a former staunch opponent of the DP who abruptly changed his course of thinking once directly affected). No debate on this. Just admit it.

No. There are many reasons I'm against death penalty, would just seem to me that realizing innocents WILL be put to death would cause pause. But no. It's okay to kill a few to get that child rapists. Simple as that. I'm not stretching as are you in your reply.

And forensic science isn't used to convict all, it too can be wrong and evidence can be planted. So there is no way to guarantee guilt using evidence.

There is only one way ONE to ensure innocents aren't put to death.

As discussed in earlier posts we can't allow victims families to dictate what they want. And many forgave the offenders.

callen

and all drugs should be legal but that's another topic.

pdalowsky

how do the pro death penalty advocates feel about the glossip case on the presumption that he is indeed guilty.

asking someone to kill someone, does that warrant death? or is that punishment only appropriate for the person who actually kills?