Yes. I am a big supporter of Euthanasia or the right to kill oneself. Don't you think that saying kill yourself now or face a life in prison is okay? I mean, it's already an option that is 100% available to all people who are guilty and are going to spend life in prison. Why not make it so that it's easier to clean up? *shrug*
If I was innocent and wrongly convicted and was being sent to life in prison my ONLY thought would be how I was going to prove my innocence. I doubt that many innocent people are immediately ready to turn to suicide, but if they are there are a lot of ways to do it anyway. If that's the route they want to take, they'll take it either way. But I should think that most people would be horrified, but ready to fight to prove that a mistake had been made and spend every waking moment with the hope that their fight won't be futile. It's just like the theory that only the guilty sleep soundly after being arrested or whatever it is.
I am a big supporter of Euthanasia as well, because I believe in free will and it should be a free person's right to choose when to end their life. But we are not talking about free persons when it comes to the death penalty. Arial Castro's days of free will should have been over. He sacrificed them when he decided to kidnap, imprison, and rape those women. Ultimately, yes, the choice would always be his and someone who wants to kill themselves will find away. However, I don't think the state should ever give anyone that choice as part of a sentence. A criminal on the level of Arial Castro should not be afforded the luxury of deciding when, where and how they go. This is not someone ravaged by cancer who simply cannot go on. This is a monster who, in making a deal to avoid the death penalty, was sentenced to life in prison. Suicide is an easy out that Arial Castro did not deserve.
Of course, neither of us can say for sure how we would react if being wrongly convicted and sentenced to life in prison. Myself...I can't imagine it. Prison scares the hell out of me. I'm not cut out for it. If I had just gone through the experience of being accused, arrested, tried, convicted and sentenced...if maybe some of my friends and loved ones doubted my innocence...I don't know, that cyanide would look tempting.
You are blaming society now for the actions of its depraved?
No. Here's what i said: "Maybe that same society should take a degree of responsibility for that before condemning them to death for the crimes they've committed."
You need to stop exaggerating my statements in order to try and dismiss them. It's too obvious.
If I am looking into the US murder rate, I would look at gun ownership, poverty, inequities within the systems, alcohol and drug use, and other such variables before I would begin to think that capital punishment is at the root of murderous mindsets.
I didn't say that capital punishment is at the root of murderous mindsets. Again, quit with the exaggerations.
who cares why castro killed himself? he made the decision and im losing no sleep over it. he couldn't take being incarcerated... now he knows how those girls he kept chained up felt... tho they chose to stay alive. more power to them. ding dong...
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Death by his own hand, at a time of his own choosing, in a manner of his own choosing, is far too easy a punishment for Arial Castro. Those condemned to die via the death penalty are afforded none of those choices.
Seems to me that you see the death penalty, and execution of the accused, as more about the pleasure that you can derive from his execution, by making sure that his death is carried out with your own hand, than about his actual death itself and any kind of 'justice' you wish to tag onto it.
let's face it, it's just blood-lust, pure and simple.
A society that takes satisfaction in blood-lust and revenge is a barbaric society as far as I'm concerned.
Didn't you just say that you thought death was too easy for Ariel Castro? From that I had assumed that you'd changed your mind on this issue.... I assumed that you thought killing criminals basically let them off the hook.
A mistaken assumption. Death by his own hand, at a time of his own choosing, in a manner of his own choosing, is far too easy a punishment for Arial Castro. Those condemned to die via the death penalty are afforded none of those choices.
Plus, he cut a deal to avoid the death penalty. His sentence was life in prison, a sentence he has now escaped. Far too easy.
So in your opinion, the point of the death penalty is not to rid the world of the person (suicide takes care of that just as well but without a murderous government), but to exact revenge.
You are blaming society now for the actions of its depraved?
No. Here's what i said: "Maybe that same society should take a degree of responsibility for that before condemning them to death for the crimes they've committed."
You need to stop exaggerating my statements in order to try and dismiss them. It's too obvious.
You said (your words copied and pasted), "these criminals didn't evolve in a vacuum. They are a product of the society they live in. Maybe that same society should take a degree of responsibility for that before condemning them to death for the crimes they've committed."
Interesting that you conveniently took your words out of the very context you wrote them in to soften the position you boldly asserted earlier.
To the actual (and more complete) quote... maybe I'm just dumb, but these words sure sound as if you are attributing a portion of blame to society instead of the source. How exactly have I exaggerated anything here?
And, get serious here... you talk of me stretching arguments to dismiss things said? The guy who somehow figures a person arguing for the death penalty is a guy that likely fantasizes of medieval torture in his spare time.
While I'm at it... I don't buy for a second you never directly called me an idiot. You denied it to me. Then you hid behind a really feeble response to Hugh after he called you out by expressing that you never noticed who wrote the quotations. Yah. Sure.
The only thing 'obvious' is your method of operation when you don't like the way the conversation is going.
If I am looking into the US murder rate, I would look at gun ownership, poverty, inequities within the systems, alcohol and drug use, and other such variables before I would begin to think that capital punishment is at the root of murderous mindsets.
I didn't say that capital punishment is at the root of murderous mindsets. Again, quit with the exaggerations.
Again... what exaggerations?
You seem to be saying something when you continually utter things about the death penalty such as "it just teaches people that murder is an acceptable solution, and it degrades society to the level of those it condemns."
You accuse me of distorting your points by exaggerating them, yet your very words would suggest otherwise. Does the death penalty teach people that murder is an acceptable solution or not? If it does... then is it not at the core of the 'shaped' murderous mind? If it doesn't... would you care to retract?
You are blaming society now for the actions of its depraved?
No. Here's what i said: "Maybe that same society should take a degree of responsibility for that before condemning them to death for the crimes they've committed."
You need to stop exaggerating my statements in order to try and dismiss them. It's too obvious.
You said (your words copied and pasted), "these criminals didn't evolve in a vacuum. They are a product of the society they live in. Maybe that same society should take a degree of responsibility for that before condemning them to death for the crimes they've committed."
Interesting that you conveniently took your words out of the very context you wrote them in to soften the position you boldly asserted earlier.
To the actual (and more complete) quote... maybe I'm just dumb, but these words sure sound as if you are attributing a portion of blame to society instead of the source. How exactly have I exaggerated anything here?
And, get serious here... you talk of me stretching arguments to dismiss things said? The guy who somehow figures a person arguing for the death penalty is a guy that likely fantasizes of medieval torture in his spare time.
i didn't take my words out of context. Are you suggesting that criminals evolve in a vacuum and are not effected by the society around them? And yeah, i am attributing a portion of the blame to society. But that's not what you said before. You said that I'm "blaming society for the actions of its depraved".
While I'm at it... I don't buy for a second you never directly called me an idiot. You denied it to me. Then you hid behind a really feeble response to Hugh after he called you out by expressing that you never noticed who wrote the quotations. Yah. Sure.
You placed a quote in speech marks and italics, and i didn't notice the '30 bills' at the end of it. Why would you quote yourself?
As distasteful as those comments might be... I view them as more or less people venting their outrage. There are certainly some who might be more serious than others, but it's fair to say that people say things they don't really mena when they are emotionally charged. Let's not judge too harshly given what they might be repsonding to and the moment they are doing so.
I'm not going to argue with much of what you are saying. There is a moral component to the siituation that begs consideration. However... I would disagree with your statement where you say it is with certainty that rape will occur. This is an exaggeration.
I take a pretty dim view of those comments, myself.
It may be an exaggeration about whether rape is a certainty, but from what I've heard and observed, it's pretty close to the truth.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
as a matter of fact, prison guards fight to protect inmates in protective custody & others locked up who may need a helping hand. turn a back to a bit of gambling, drug use or dealing or someone who has extra toothpaste or more cds than they are supposed to have.
i know a guard who was beat nearly to death with a mop ringer as he tried protecting a inmate who was himself being beat with the mop ringer. then out of nowhere a family friend (ray) tackled this massive animal & made him cry for his mother. ray saved two peoples' lives, one a fellow officer & the other a prisoner
i have never ever in 47 billion years ever heard of officers allowing animal rapists to rape. this is a bullshit hollywood story telling tactic
I'm fairly certain that the guards aren't going to ignore it if they observe it.
But...the fact that so many are occurring means that the system that's currently in place is not doing enough to prevent them. And if the system can't do more to ensure this won't happen, then we shouldn't be putting people in our prison system.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
as a matter of fact, prison guards fight to protect inmates in protective custody & others locked up who may need a helping hand. turn a back to a bit of gambling, drug use or dealing or someone who has extra toothpaste or more cds than they are supposed to have.
i know a guard who was beat nearly to death with a mop ringer as he tried protecting a inmate who was himself being beat with the mop ringer. then out of nowhere a family friend (ray) tackled this massive animal & made him cry for his mother. ray saved two peoples' lives, one a fellow officer & the other a prisoner
i have never ever in 47 billion years ever heard of officers allowing animal rapists to rape. this is a bullshit hollywood story telling tactic
I'm fairly certain that the guards aren't going to ignore it if they observe it.
But...the fact that so many are occurring means that the system that's currently in place is not doing enough to prevent them. And if the system can't do more to ensure this won't happen, then we shouldn't be putting people in our prison system.
im intrigued, where should we put such people at present then?
don't give me, 'it isn't a case of where to put them, its about fixing the system to make sure prisoners are safe', I want to know right now where we should put dangerous people?
Death by his own hand, at a time of his own choosing, in a manner of his own choosing, is far too easy a punishment for Arial Castro. Those condemned to die via the death penalty are afforded none of those choices.
Seems to me that you see the death penalty, and execution of the accused, as more about the pleasure that you can derive from his execution, by making sure that his death is carried out with your own hand, than about his actual death itself and any kind of 'justice' you wish to tag onto it.
let's face it, it's just blood-lust, pure and simple.
A society that takes satisfaction in blood-lust and revenge is a barbaric society as far as I'm concerned.
Incorrect. It is, as always, about punishment. Castro cut a deal to avoid the death penalty. His punishment was to be life in prison. He has escaped that punishment.
as a matter of fact, prison guards fight to protect inmates in protective custody & others locked up who may need a helping hand. turn a back to a bit of gambling, drug use or dealing or someone who has extra toothpaste or more cds than they are supposed to have.
i know a guard who was beat nearly to death with a mop ringer as he tried protecting a inmate who was himself being beat with the mop ringer. then out of nowhere a family friend (ray) tackled this massive animal & made him cry for his mother. ray saved two peoples' lives, one a fellow officer & the other a prisoner
i have never ever in 47 billion years ever heard of officers allowing animal rapists to rape. this is a bullshit hollywood story telling tactic
I'm fairly certain that the guards aren't going to ignore it if they observe it.
But...the fact that so many are occurring means that the system that's currently in place is not doing enough to prevent them. And if the system can't do more to ensure this won't happen, then we shouldn't be putting people in our prison system.
im intrigued, where should we put such people at present then?
don't give me, 'it isn't a case of where to put them, its about fixing the system to make sure prisoners are safe', I want to know right now where we should put dangerous people?
I don't have an answer to that, but we definitely should be doing all we can to fix the situation.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
the circular argument here echoes a good deal of the situation surrounding a monster here in the Uk who was released last week back into society.
many will have heard of the Bulger case, and the monsters who kidnapped him, befriended, killed him, abused him, multilated him, and threw him under a train and left in several pieces?
the guy who got out of his rehabilation juvenile centre (due to his age) at 20 years old, with a fresh new ID and a new start in life, and was later rearrested through storing and distributing child porn at 28. Well after serving a nother 3 years in high protective custody, he is now on his 4th ID at a cost of £1,000,000 a time, and is back amoungst the general population.
Many people want his blood, theres a thirst for it that is almost unrivalled in this country, and of course there is no place for vigilante mobs, but should this beast really be walking the streets and open to date peoples children unknowingly??
the circular argument here echoes a good deal of the situation surrounding a monster here in the Uk who was released last week back into society.
many will have heard of the Bulger case, and the monsters who kidnapped him, befriended, killed him, abused him, multilated him, and threw him under a train and left in several pieces?
the guy who got out of his rehabilation juvenile centre (due to his age) at 20 years old, with a fresh new ID and a new start in life, and was later rearrested through storing and distributing child porn at 28. Well after serving a nother 3 years in high protective custody, he is now on his 4th ID at a cost of £1,000,000 a time, and is back amoungst the general population.
Many people want his blood, theres a thirst for it that is almost unrivalled in this country, and of course there is no place for vigilante mobs, but should this beast really be walking the streets and open to date peoples children unknowingly??
I'm sure his name and reputation will precede him, and he'll also be monitored closely.
Didn't they try blaming those murders on the influence of the movie 'Child's play' and it's main character 'Chucky'?
No. Here's what i said: "Maybe that same society should take a degree of responsibility for that before condemning them to death for the crimes they've committed."
You need to stop exaggerating my statements in order to try and dismiss them. It's too obvious.
You said (your words copied and pasted), "these criminals didn't evolve in a vacuum. They are a product of the society they live in. Maybe that same society should take a degree of responsibility for that before condemning them to death for the crimes they've committed."
Interesting that you conveniently took your words out of the very context you wrote them in to soften the position you boldly asserted earlier.
To the actual (and more complete) quote... maybe I'm just dumb, but these words sure sound as if you are attributing a portion of blame to society instead of the source. How exactly have I exaggerated anything here?
And, get serious here... you talk of me stretching arguments to dismiss things said? The guy who somehow figures a person arguing for the death penalty is a guy that likely fantasizes of medieval torture in his spare time.
i didn't take my words out of context. Are you suggesting that criminals evolve in a vacuum and are not effected by the society around them? And yeah, i am attributing a portion of the blame to society. But that's not what you said before. You said that I'm "blaming society for the actions of its depraved".
While I'm at it... I don't buy for a second you never directly called me an idiot. You denied it to me. Then you hid behind a really feeble response to Hugh after he called you out by expressing that you never noticed who wrote the quotations. Yah. Sure.
You placed a quote in speech marks and italics, and i didn't notice the '30 bills' at the end of it. Why would you quote yourself?
Look... we are at each other's throats here. I'm not having a good time with the 'spirit' of our exchanges. We entered this argument knowing full well that we were far apart on this issue and likely always will be. I can respect your point of view even though I'm not positive you respect mine. Bottom line: we are entitled to our opinions and can remain passionate about them if that is our desire. It's not us that are committing murders. Despite what has been written that might suggest otherwise, we are both interested in the welfare of our fellow man. These truths alone should be enough to keep things civil.
I am willing to engage in the discussion, but would prefer to do so without any condescending tones reflecting a lack of respect for the other person. So... I will be careful to write posts that concern themselves with the argument and that have nothing to do with the person. I hope you can do the same.
In answer to your question (and post)... if you look back at the post where I quoted myself... I prefaced it as 'fluff'. I did so because I considered and called the philosophical quotation you posted as 'fluff' beforehand. I felt that necessary because I didn't want to come across like I was simply dismissing philosophy attached to the side of the debate I opposed. I offered a slice of philosophy supporting my side of the debate and dismissed all philosophy because I am not an idealist as much as I'm a realist. Just because things sound good does not mean they are practical.
the circular argument here echoes a good deal of the situation surrounding a monster here in the Uk who was released last week back into society.
many will have heard of the Bulger case, and the monsters who kidnapped him, befriended, killed him, abused him, multilated him, and threw him under a train and left in several pieces?
the guy who got out of his rehabilation juvenile centre (due to his age) at 20 years old, with a fresh new ID and a new start in life, and was later rearrested through storing and distributing child porn at 28. Well after serving a nother 3 years in high protective custody, he is now on his 4th ID at a cost of £1,000,000 a time, and is back amoungst the general population.
Many people want his blood, theres a thirst for it that is almost unrivalled in this country, and of course there is no place for vigilante mobs, but should this beast really be walking the streets and open to date peoples children unknowingly??
A horrifying case to say the least.
Here's my issue with it. The guy was 10 years old when he committed the crime. I'm not sure where I sit with the entire spectrum of moral complexities as we attempt to deal with such an event perpetrated by 10 year olds.
Don't get me wrong: I feel sickened with what happened and absolutely horrible for the parents and I can totally understand why the survivors might want a sentence such as even death. If it was an adult who should know better... I'd say straight to the gas chamber, but it's two 10 year olds.
I'm not necessarily saying release them either. I guess I'm saying I'm really not sure how I would like to see this case handled. It's a tragedy and I see no solution that offers anything to anyone.
What I can comfortably say is if they have not been rehabilitated properly and are breaching conditions of their release- such as accessing child pornography- then they clearly pose a threat to society and need to be removed from the general public.
the circular argument here echoes a good deal of the situation surrounding a monster here in the Uk who was released last week back into society.
many will have heard of the Bulger case, and the monsters who kidnapped him, befriended, killed him, abused him, multilated him, and threw him under a train and left in several pieces?
the guy who got out of his rehabilation juvenile centre (due to his age) at 20 years old, with a fresh new ID and a new start in life, and was later rearrested through storing and distributing child porn at 28. Well after serving a nother 3 years in high protective custody, he is now on his 4th ID at a cost of £1,000,000 a time, and is back amoungst the general population.
Many people want his blood, theres a thirst for it that is almost unrivalled in this country, and of course there is no place for vigilante mobs, but should this beast really be walking the streets and open to date peoples children unknowingly??
Life without possibility of parole solves this. Many counties have short sentences for violent crime.
the circular argument here echoes a good deal of the situation surrounding a monster here in the Uk who was released last week back into society.
many will have heard of the Bulger case, and the monsters who kidnapped him, befriended, killed him, abused him, multilated him, and threw him under a train and left in several pieces?
the guy who got out of his rehabilation juvenile centre (due to his age) at 20 years old, with a fresh new ID and a new start in life, and was later rearrested through storing and distributing child porn at 28. Well after serving a nother 3 years in high protective custody, he is now on his 4th ID at a cost of £1,000,000 a time, and is back amoungst the general population.
Many people want his blood, theres a thirst for it that is almost unrivalled in this country, and of course there is no place for vigilante mobs, but should this beast really be walking the streets and open to date peoples children unknowingly??
I'm sure his name and reputation will precede him, and he'll also be monitored closely.
Didn't they try blaming those murders on the influence of the movie 'Child's play' and it's main character 'Chucky'?
Yes, until the brutality and sexual nature of the attacks clearly came to light.
I didn't watch many of the childs play films, they really don't appeal whatsoever, but I don't believe Chucky ever forced battery into toddlers bottoms, or forcibly retracted their foreskins until they ripped.
But sure, there was a section of society, that perhaps rightly , wanted to discover the reasons for this attack, and perhaps find something to blame and in some way justify them due to their ages.
whislt I agree, minors can never be judged in a way mature adults can, and held to have the same comprehension of being morally responsible etc
when you consider in this case the facts, there can be no argument that these boys didn't know exactly what they were doing and that what they were doing was terribly wrong.
It came to light that they had carefully planned the attack ....not on Jamie specifically, as they were seen on CCTV wandering around looking for any available toddler that day, that they were then seen coaxing him away from his mother, they then made him lie to strangers along the way that they were his brothers, and they were playing whilst they punched him in the face for two miles until they reached wasteland, where they proceeded to sexually abuse him, mutilate him, and torture him to death before trying to dispose of his torn body under a train.....
I appreciate they were ten, but I do not for a minute think that they did not know what they were doing, that they couldn't comprehend the gravity of their actions, and the sick torture they were inflicting on a small defenceless child. Its just not possible, they knew what they wanted to do, they had it all planned before the event, and they executed that plan to the very detail.
It still breaks my heart to this day. I have a two year old boy myself and its not possible to even consider the situation faced every day by Jamies parents, that they have to somehow wake up and get through every day....im not honestly sure that I could .
Meanwhile we have a subject that at 30 years old and after being carefully rehabilitated at massive cost to the Uk taxpayer and on life parole dating young ladies openly had the brass balls to access and share child porn. This same individual has been deemed fit for release on life parole again. That I find disgusting. He had his chance and he blew it. Many would have never let him go in the first instance, and im not saying I advocate that line of thought, but after reoffending in that manner that twisted pervert should never ever have been allowed to step foot on our streets again.
Justice for Jamie? there is none sadly.
Believe me I get that to some degree those lads were failed by society, and by his parents......I get that and I accept that, but it NEVER excuses those actions. There are plenty of poor impoverished youngsters whom have a terrible start to life, and find themselves badly treated in their adolescence, and that in itself is heartbreaking, but to me the book stops with those committing the crime, there is no god damn way they thought their behaviour was normal, excusable, or acceptable because of video games they played or movies they watched. At ten they knew, and they acted with pure brutality that this nation has never experienced.
There is a level of hatred levelled at those two scumbags that I have not seen paralleled here, its unprecedented, and it remains as strong as ever 20 years on. The digust is as palpable as it was when it first happened, and to have the little pervert back out on the streets to prey again makes me sick.
I don't have the answers on this case, sadly no one does, it was a one off evil act of mind boggling proportions.........
but I do know I wouldn't want to employ him, and I definitely wouldn't want him near my children, or a friends daughter as boyfriend material. Yet we will never know..........apparently this is ok.
going back to when I first started posting here, I am anti DP.
and to bring in another case now from more recent times, that stance was challenged to the max recently at the young soldier and father of a 2 year old little boy, who had his chopped off in broad daylight in London in full view of passers by, because his muslim attackers didn't like his t shirt.
those attackers proudly stood in the street justifying their actions, and challenged police with machetes until they were shot down and remanded.
fast forward two months and one failed to follow orders in custody, and was physically restrained with force - he lost a tooth, he is suing the prison service.
im sorry but that is a test, a massive test of my patience.....
whislt I agree, minors can never be judged in a way mature adults can, and held to have the same comprehension of being morally responsible etc
when you consider in this case the facts, there can be no argument that these boys didn't know exactly what they were doing and that what they were doing was terribly wrong.
It came to light that they had carefully planned the attack ....not on Jamie specifically, as they were seen on CCTV wandering around looking for any available toddler that day, that they were then seen coaxing him away from his mother, they then made him lie to strangers along the way that they were his brothers, and they were playing whilst they punched him in the face for two miles until they reached wasteland, where they proceeded to sexually abuse him, mutilate him, and torture him to death before trying to dispose of his torn body under a train.....
I appreciate they were ten, but I do not for a minute think that they did not know what they were doing, that they couldn't comprehend the gravity of their actions, and the sick torture they were inflicting on a small defenceless child. Its just not possible, they knew what they wanted to do, they had it all planned before the event, and they executed that plan to the very detail.
It still breaks my heart to this day. I have a two year old boy myself and its not possible to even consider the situation faced every day by Jamies parents, that they have to somehow wake up and get through every day....im not honestly sure that I could .
Meanwhile we have a subject that at 30 years old and after being carefully rehabilitated at massive cost to the Uk taxpayer and on life parole dating young ladies openly had the brass balls to access and share child porn. This same individual has been deemed fit for release on life parole again. That I find disgusting. He had his chance and he blew it. Many would have never let him go in the first instance, and im not saying I advocate that line of thought, but after reoffending in that manner that twisted pervert should never ever have been allowed to step foot on our streets again.
Justice for Jamie? there is none sadly.
Believe me I get that to some degree those lads were failed by society, and by his parents......I get that and I accept that, but it NEVER excuses those actions. There are plenty of poor impoverished youngsters whom have a terrible start to life, and find themselves badly treated in their adolescence, and that in itself is heartbreaking, but to me the book stops with those committing the crime, there is no god damn way they thought their behaviour was normal, excusable, or acceptable because of video games they played or movies they watched. At ten they knew, and they acted with pure brutality that this nation has never experienced.
There is a level of hatred levelled at those two scumbags that I have not seen paralleled here, its unprecedented, and it remains as strong as ever 20 years on. The digust is as palpable as it was when it first happened, and to have the little pervert back out on the streets to prey again makes me sick.
I don't have the answers on this case, sadly no one does, it was a one off evil act of mind boggling proportions.........
but I do know I wouldn't want to employ him, and I definitely wouldn't want him near my children, or a friends daughter as boyfriend material. Yet we will never know..........apparently this is ok.
Hey... don't get me wrong here... I'm outraged as well.
I just haven't finished formulating where my line is with regards to tolerance. I just need to do more thinking on it.
going back to when I first started posting here, I am anti DP.
and to bring in another case now from more recent times, that stance was challenged to the max recently at the young soldier and father of a 2 year old little boy, who had his chopped off in broad daylight in London in full view of passers by, because his muslim attackers didn't like his t shirt.
those attackers proudly stood in the street justifying their actions, and challenged police with machetes until they were shot down and remanded.
fast forward two months and one failed to follow orders in custody, and was physically restrained with force - he lost a tooth, he is suing the prison service.
im sorry but that is a test, a massive test of my patience.....
Murder becoming commonplace. A new way to express yourself is to chop some random person's head off and parade around drenched in their blood while spouting your rhetoric.
And then demand your rights while spending time in prison.
Sorry. You have no more rights. You forfeited your rights when you trampled all over everybody else's.
going back to when I first started posting here, I am anti DP.
and to bring in another case now from more recent times, that stance was challenged to the max recently at the young soldier and father of a 2 year old little boy, who had his chopped off in broad daylight in London in full view of passers by, because his muslim attackers didn't like his t shirt.
those attackers proudly stood in the street justifying their actions, and challenged police with machetes until they were shot down and remanded.
fast forward two months and one failed to follow orders in custody, and was physically restrained with force - he lost a tooth, he is suing the prison service.
im sorry but that is a test, a massive test of my patience.....
Murder becoming commonplace. A new way to express yourself is to chop some random person's head off and parade around drenched in their blood while spouting your rhetoric.
And then demand your rights while spending time in prison.
Sorry. You have no more rights. You forfeited your rights when you trampled all over everybody else's.
BINGO.
You'll probably get slammed for saying that, but when we cut through all the rhetoric and PC craziness, what you say is absolutely right.
going back to when I first started posting here, I am anti DP.
and to bring in another case now from more recent times, that stance was challenged to the max recently at the young soldier and father of a 2 year old little boy, who had his chopped off in broad daylight in London in full view of passers by, because his muslim attackers didn't like his t shirt.
those attackers proudly stood in the street justifying their actions, and challenged police with machetes until they were shot down and remanded.
fast forward two months and one failed to follow orders in custody, and was physically restrained with force - he lost a tooth, he is suing the prison service.
im sorry but that is a test, a massive test of my patience.....
Murder becoming commonplace. A new way to express yourself is to chop some random person's head off and parade around drenched in their blood while spouting your rhetoric.
And then demand your rights while spending time in prison.
Sorry. You have no more rights. You forfeited your rights when you trampled all over everybody else's.
people should always have rights, NO MATTER WHAT. thinking otherwise gives rise to racism, genocide, etc.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
going back to when I first started posting here, I am anti DP.
and to bring in another case now from more recent times, that stance was challenged to the max recently at the young soldier and father of a 2 year old little boy, who had his chopped off in broad daylight in London in full view of passers by, because his muslim attackers didn't like his t shirt.
those attackers proudly stood in the street justifying their actions, and challenged police with machetes until they were shot down and remanded.
fast forward two months and one failed to follow orders in custody, and was physically restrained with force - he lost a tooth, he is suing the prison service.
im sorry but that is a test, a massive test of my patience.....
Murder becoming commonplace. A new way to express yourself is to chop some random person's head off and parade around drenched in their blood while spouting your rhetoric.
And then demand your rights while spending time in prison.
Sorry. You have no more rights. You forfeited your rights when you trampled all over everybody else's.
people should always have rights, NO MATTER WHAT. thinking otherwise gives rise to racism, genocide, etc.
I totally agree. And again, I'll remind those who seem to have forgotten: They don't only have child killers and rapists in prison. Prisoner rights are for all prisoners, not just the ones you wish dead.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Murder becoming commonplace. A new way to express yourself is to chop some random person's head off and parade around drenched in their blood while spouting your rhetoric.
And then demand your rights while spending time in prison.
Sorry. You have no more rights. You forfeited your rights when you trampled all over everybody else's.
people should always have rights, NO MATTER WHAT. thinking otherwise gives rise to racism, genocide, etc.
Someone can rape, murder, and mutilate someone... then expect to be treated with dignity?
No. Not there with you, man.
I'm not sure how you draw a parallel between the rise of racism and genocide if a society strips a homicidal maniac of their rights. This is a stretch to say the least.
who cares why castro killed himself? he made the decision and im losing no sleep over it. he couldn't take being incarcerated... now he knows how those girls he kept chained up felt... tho they chose to stay alive. more power to them. ding dong...
he knows a fraction of how those three felt. he was not raped, he was not abducted, he was no punching bag & he wasn't chained to a wall, floor or a bed & he wasn't starved to eliminate a pregnancy. he lived a few months in a cell, those three gals lived a good decade or more under this monster's wrath
Comments
I am a big supporter of Euthanasia as well, because I believe in free will and it should be a free person's right to choose when to end their life. But we are not talking about free persons when it comes to the death penalty. Arial Castro's days of free will should have been over. He sacrificed them when he decided to kidnap, imprison, and rape those women. Ultimately, yes, the choice would always be his and someone who wants to kill themselves will find away. However, I don't think the state should ever give anyone that choice as part of a sentence. A criminal on the level of Arial Castro should not be afforded the luxury of deciding when, where and how they go. This is not someone ravaged by cancer who simply cannot go on. This is a monster who, in making a deal to avoid the death penalty, was sentenced to life in prison. Suicide is an easy out that Arial Castro did not deserve.
Of course, neither of us can say for sure how we would react if being wrongly convicted and sentenced to life in prison. Myself...I can't imagine it. Prison scares the hell out of me. I'm not cut out for it. If I had just gone through the experience of being accused, arrested, tried, convicted and sentenced...if maybe some of my friends and loved ones doubted my innocence...I don't know, that cyanide would look tempting.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
No. Here's what i said: "Maybe that same society should take a degree of responsibility for that before condemning them to death for the crimes they've committed."
You need to stop exaggerating my statements in order to try and dismiss them. It's too obvious.
I didn't say that capital punishment is at the root of murderous mindsets. Again, quit with the exaggerations.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Seems to me that you see the death penalty, and execution of the accused, as more about the pleasure that you can derive from his execution, by making sure that his death is carried out with your own hand, than about his actual death itself and any kind of 'justice' you wish to tag onto it.
let's face it, it's just blood-lust, pure and simple.
A society that takes satisfaction in blood-lust and revenge is a barbaric society as far as I'm concerned.
Exactly. You beat me to it.
You said (your words copied and pasted), "these criminals didn't evolve in a vacuum. They are a product of the society they live in. Maybe that same society should take a degree of responsibility for that before condemning them to death for the crimes they've committed."
Interesting that you conveniently took your words out of the very context you wrote them in to soften the position you boldly asserted earlier.
To the actual (and more complete) quote... maybe I'm just dumb, but these words sure sound as if you are attributing a portion of blame to society instead of the source. How exactly have I exaggerated anything here?
And, get serious here... you talk of me stretching arguments to dismiss things said? The guy who somehow figures a person arguing for the death penalty is a guy that likely fantasizes of medieval torture in his spare time.
While I'm at it... I don't buy for a second you never directly called me an idiot. You denied it to me. Then you hid behind a really feeble response to Hugh after he called you out by expressing that you never noticed who wrote the quotations. Yah. Sure.
The only thing 'obvious' is your method of operation when you don't like the way the conversation is going.
Again... what exaggerations?
You seem to be saying something when you continually utter things about the death penalty such as "it just teaches people that murder is an acceptable solution, and it degrades society to the level of those it condemns."
You accuse me of distorting your points by exaggerating them, yet your very words would suggest otherwise. Does the death penalty teach people that murder is an acceptable solution or not? If it does... then is it not at the core of the 'shaped' murderous mind? If it doesn't... would you care to retract?
i didn't take my words out of context. Are you suggesting that criminals evolve in a vacuum and are not effected by the society around them? And yeah, i am attributing a portion of the blame to society. But that's not what you said before. You said that I'm "blaming society for the actions of its depraved".
You placed a quote in speech marks and italics, and i didn't notice the '30 bills' at the end of it. Why would you quote yourself?
I take a pretty dim view of those comments, myself.
It may be an exaggeration about whether rape is a certainty, but from what I've heard and observed, it's pretty close to the truth.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I'm fairly certain that the guards aren't going to ignore it if they observe it.
But...the fact that so many are occurring means that the system that's currently in place is not doing enough to prevent them. And if the system can't do more to ensure this won't happen, then we shouldn't be putting people in our prison system.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I totally agree.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
im intrigued, where should we put such people at present then?
don't give me, 'it isn't a case of where to put them, its about fixing the system to make sure prisoners are safe', I want to know right now where we should put dangerous people?
Incorrect. It is, as always, about punishment. Castro cut a deal to avoid the death penalty. His punishment was to be life in prison. He has escaped that punishment.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
I don't have an answer to that, but we definitely should be doing all we can to fix the situation.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
many will have heard of the Bulger case, and the monsters who kidnapped him, befriended, killed him, abused him, multilated him, and threw him under a train and left in several pieces?
the guy who got out of his rehabilation juvenile centre (due to his age) at 20 years old, with a fresh new ID and a new start in life, and was later rearrested through storing and distributing child porn at 28. Well after serving a nother 3 years in high protective custody, he is now on his 4th ID at a cost of £1,000,000 a time, and is back amoungst the general population.
Many people want his blood, theres a thirst for it that is almost unrivalled in this country, and of course there is no place for vigilante mobs, but should this beast really be walking the streets and open to date peoples children unknowingly??
I'm sure his name and reputation will precede him, and he'll also be monitored closely.
Didn't they try blaming those murders on the influence of the movie 'Child's play' and it's main character 'Chucky'?
Look... we are at each other's throats here. I'm not having a good time with the 'spirit' of our exchanges. We entered this argument knowing full well that we were far apart on this issue and likely always will be. I can respect your point of view even though I'm not positive you respect mine. Bottom line: we are entitled to our opinions and can remain passionate about them if that is our desire. It's not us that are committing murders. Despite what has been written that might suggest otherwise, we are both interested in the welfare of our fellow man. These truths alone should be enough to keep things civil.
I am willing to engage in the discussion, but would prefer to do so without any condescending tones reflecting a lack of respect for the other person. So... I will be careful to write posts that concern themselves with the argument and that have nothing to do with the person. I hope you can do the same.
In answer to your question (and post)... if you look back at the post where I quoted myself... I prefaced it as 'fluff'. I did so because I considered and called the philosophical quotation you posted as 'fluff' beforehand. I felt that necessary because I didn't want to come across like I was simply dismissing philosophy attached to the side of the debate I opposed. I offered a slice of philosophy supporting my side of the debate and dismissed all philosophy because I am not an idealist as much as I'm a realist. Just because things sound good does not mean they are practical.
A horrifying case to say the least.
Here's my issue with it. The guy was 10 years old when he committed the crime. I'm not sure where I sit with the entire spectrum of moral complexities as we attempt to deal with such an event perpetrated by 10 year olds.
Don't get me wrong: I feel sickened with what happened and absolutely horrible for the parents and I can totally understand why the survivors might want a sentence such as even death. If it was an adult who should know better... I'd say straight to the gas chamber, but it's two 10 year olds.
I'm not necessarily saying release them either. I guess I'm saying I'm really not sure how I would like to see this case handled. It's a tragedy and I see no solution that offers anything to anyone.
What I can comfortably say is if they have not been rehabilitated properly and are breaching conditions of their release- such as accessing child pornography- then they clearly pose a threat to society and need to be removed from the general public.
Yes, until the brutality and sexual nature of the attacks clearly came to light.
I didn't watch many of the childs play films, they really don't appeal whatsoever, but I don't believe Chucky ever forced battery into toddlers bottoms, or forcibly retracted their foreskins until they ripped.
But sure, there was a section of society, that perhaps rightly , wanted to discover the reasons for this attack, and perhaps find something to blame and in some way justify them due to their ages.
whislt I agree, minors can never be judged in a way mature adults can, and held to have the same comprehension of being morally responsible etc
when you consider in this case the facts, there can be no argument that these boys didn't know exactly what they were doing and that what they were doing was terribly wrong.
It came to light that they had carefully planned the attack ....not on Jamie specifically, as they were seen on CCTV wandering around looking for any available toddler that day, that they were then seen coaxing him away from his mother, they then made him lie to strangers along the way that they were his brothers, and they were playing whilst they punched him in the face for two miles until they reached wasteland, where they proceeded to sexually abuse him, mutilate him, and torture him to death before trying to dispose of his torn body under a train.....
I appreciate they were ten, but I do not for a minute think that they did not know what they were doing, that they couldn't comprehend the gravity of their actions, and the sick torture they were inflicting on a small defenceless child. Its just not possible, they knew what they wanted to do, they had it all planned before the event, and they executed that plan to the very detail.
It still breaks my heart to this day. I have a two year old boy myself and its not possible to even consider the situation faced every day by Jamies parents, that they have to somehow wake up and get through every day....im not honestly sure that I could .
Meanwhile we have a subject that at 30 years old and after being carefully rehabilitated at massive cost to the Uk taxpayer and on life parole dating young ladies openly had the brass balls to access and share child porn. This same individual has been deemed fit for release on life parole again. That I find disgusting. He had his chance and he blew it. Many would have never let him go in the first instance, and im not saying I advocate that line of thought, but after reoffending in that manner that twisted pervert should never ever have been allowed to step foot on our streets again.
Justice for Jamie? there is none sadly.
Believe me I get that to some degree those lads were failed by society, and by his parents......I get that and I accept that, but it NEVER excuses those actions. There are plenty of poor impoverished youngsters whom have a terrible start to life, and find themselves badly treated in their adolescence, and that in itself is heartbreaking, but to me the book stops with those committing the crime, there is no god damn way they thought their behaviour was normal, excusable, or acceptable because of video games they played or movies they watched. At ten they knew, and they acted with pure brutality that this nation has never experienced.
There is a level of hatred levelled at those two scumbags that I have not seen paralleled here, its unprecedented, and it remains as strong as ever 20 years on. The digust is as palpable as it was when it first happened, and to have the little pervert back out on the streets to prey again makes me sick.
I don't have the answers on this case, sadly no one does, it was a one off evil act of mind boggling proportions.........
but I do know I wouldn't want to employ him, and I definitely wouldn't want him near my children, or a friends daughter as boyfriend material. Yet we will never know..........apparently this is ok.
and to bring in another case now from more recent times, that stance was challenged to the max recently at the young soldier and father of a 2 year old little boy, who had his chopped off in broad daylight in London in full view of passers by, because his muslim attackers didn't like his t shirt.
those attackers proudly stood in the street justifying their actions, and challenged police with machetes until they were shot down and remanded.
fast forward two months and one failed to follow orders in custody, and was physically restrained with force - he lost a tooth, he is suing the prison service.
im sorry but that is a test, a massive test of my patience.....
Hey... don't get me wrong here... I'm outraged as well.
I just haven't finished formulating where my line is with regards to tolerance. I just need to do more thinking on it.
Murder becoming commonplace. A new way to express yourself is to chop some random person's head off and parade around drenched in their blood while spouting your rhetoric.
And then demand your rights while spending time in prison.
Sorry. You have no more rights. You forfeited your rights when you trampled all over everybody else's.
BINGO.
You'll probably get slammed for saying that, but when we cut through all the rhetoric and PC craziness, what you say is absolutely right.
people should always have rights, NO MATTER WHAT. thinking otherwise gives rise to racism, genocide, etc.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Someone can rape, murder, and mutilate someone... then expect to be treated with dignity?
No. Not there with you, man.
I'm not sure how you draw a parallel between the rise of racism and genocide if a society strips a homicidal maniac of their rights. This is a stretch to say the least.
although i follow what you're getting at.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce