The Death Penalty

Byrnzie

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

Just watched the HBO documentary on the Cheshire Murders. For those unsure of the crime... 2 bags of shit invade a home, beat the shit out of the dad, tie up two daughters, rape the 11 year old daughter and the mother, douse the house and girls in gasoline, ignite the house, and promptly get arrested fleeing the burning building. Girls burned alive.

It actually does a decent job of presenting two sides to the DP issue. It made you think a bit.

But, despite childhood pictures, descripts of their pasts, and some silly statistics focusing on finances... these depraved monsters deserve death and I hope they get it before too many more appeals. William Petit simply wanting it... deserves it.

On a side note... the cops sat there twiddling their thumbs for 30 minutes outside the house while the last awful parts of the event transpired. Complete, bumbling, fucking fools that should be ashamed of themselves to the moment they die. This poor display of policemanship might even be more of a failure than those 2 stupid cops that allowed the naked, disoriented, and bleeding child to go back to Dahmer's house after nearly escaping (they bought Jeffrey's claim that the boy was his drunk lover).

You can reel off every depraved act known to man. Still doesn't justify state-sanctioned murder. If society believes murder is wrong, and that murderers are sick and depraved, then why stoop to their level by doing as they do?

pdalowsky

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

Just watched the HBO documentary on the Cheshire Murders. For those unsure of the crime... 2 bags of shit invade a home, beat the shit out of the dad, tie up two daughters, rape the 11 year old daughter and the mother, douse the house and girls in gasoline, ignite the house, and promptly get arrested fleeing the burning building. Girls burned alive.

It actually does a decent job of presenting two sides to the DP issue. It made you think a bit.

But, despite childhood pictures, descripts of their pasts, and some silly statistics focusing on finances... these depraved monsters deserve death and I hope they get it before too many more appeals. William Petit simply wanting it... deserves it.

On a side note... the cops sat there twiddling their thumbs for 30 minutes outside the house while the last awful parts of the event transpired. Complete, bumbling, fucking fools that should be ashamed of themselves to the moment they die. This poor display of policemanship might even be more of a failure than those 2 stupid cops that allowed the naked, disoriented, and bleeding child to go back to Dahmer's house after nearly escaping (they bought Jeffrey's claim that the boy was his drunk lover).

That Dahmer was a despicable monster.

pdalowsky

Byrnzie wrote:

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

Just watched the HBO documentary on the Cheshire Murders. For those unsure of the crime... 2 bags of shit invade a home, beat the shit out of the dad, tie up two daughters, rape the 11 year old daughter and the mother, douse the house and girls in gasoline, ignite the house, and promptly get arrested fleeing the burning building. Girls burned alive.

It actually does a decent job of presenting two sides to the DP issue. It made you think a bit.

But, despite childhood pictures, descripts of their pasts, and some silly statistics focusing on finances... these depraved monsters deserve death and I hope they get it before too many more appeals. William Petit simply wanting it... deserves it.

On a side note... the cops sat there twiddling their thumbs for 30 minutes outside the house while the last awful parts of the event transpired. Complete, bumbling, fucking fools that should be ashamed of themselves to the moment they die. This poor display of policemanship might even be more of a failure than those 2 stupid cops that allowed the naked, disoriented, and bleeding child to go back to Dahmer's house after nearly escaping (they bought Jeffrey's claim that the boy was his drunk lover).

You can reel off every depraved act known to man. Still doesn't justify state-sanctioned murder. If society believes murder is wrong, and that murderers are sick and depraved, then why stoop to their level by doing as they do?

I tend to belong to this line of thought, until it involves young children......then I struggle, and as much as I hate the DP, and the whole notion of it, some of these monsters disgust me so damn much its hard not to consider it as justifiable.

Following the case of little Daniel Pelka here in the Uk, has been heartbreakingly sad. Parents now found guilty of horrific abuse, and in the end his murder......and due to be sentenced to a life of ping pong, tv, gym and three meals a day in the UK.

Im not saying I want the death penalty here, far from it. But you know when things sit and eat away at you, and upset you to the core? Its hard not to wish death on scum like these.

riotgrl

I haven't read the entire thread so maybe you guys have already discussed this point. Why is it ok for someone to commit a heinous act against another human being and get off easy be receiving the death penalty? With death, their suffering is over and they never have to think again about what they have done or their own demons that may torture them. Why don't we reform our prison system and make it a miserable shit hole to live in. If you commit some atrocious crime, then you forfeit all your rights. The only thing you should be entitled to is food, shelter, clothing and medical care so we can keep you alive as long as possible to torture the shit out of you. Death? Too easy, IMO. And as Byrnzie said earlier, why do WE as a society stoop to the same level as the cretin that committed the crime? I would never kill anyone so why do I want someone elses murder on MY hands?

pdalowsky

riotgrl wrote:

I haven't read the entire thread so maybe you guys have already discussed this point. Why is it ok for someone to commit a heinous act against another human being and get off easy be receiving the death penalty? With death, their suffering is over and they never have to think again about what they have done or their own demons that may torture them. Why don't we reform our prison system and make it a miserable shit hole to live in. If you commit some atrocious crime, then you forfeit all your rights. The only thing you should be entitled to is food, shelter, clothing and medical care so we can keep you alive as long as possible to torture the shit out of you. Death? Too easy, IMO. And as Byrnzie said earlier, why do WE as a society stoop to the same level as the cretin that committed the crime? I would never kill anyone so why do I want someone elses murder on MY hands?

yes its been well covered and theres been much discussion over the use of solitary confinement in the states. There were some brilliant links to a guy who wrote about life for 25 years in a cell on his own. It sounded like utter hell. so you do make a very good point indeed.

polaris_x

this topic and abortion is like groundhog day ... ... can't imagine many changing their mind on this topic ...

Godfather.

I just had an "early morning w/ no coffee yet thought"..
it seems as though the people on the train aginst the death penalty use the argument of life in solitary confinement
or in a small prison sell which is more painfull than death and in my mind that is a form of torture...is it not ? and some of those people that argue for life rather than the death penalty also argue that water bording and other forms of torture to get info from terorist is wrong...so which is it death or a life time torture ? I'm sure that if most of you worked in the prison system and were witness to the sanity of a man slowly rotting in a cell and hearing the screams of mental pain and suffering you may re-think your stance on the issue...maybe ?

Godfather.

chadwick

Godfather. wrote:

I just had an "early morning w/ no coffee yet thought"..
it seems as though the people on the train aginst the death penalty use the argument of life in solitary confinement
or in a small prison sell which is more painfull than death and in my mind that is a form of torture...is it not ? and some of those people that argue for life rather than the death penalty also argue that water bording and other forms of torture to get info from terorist is wrong...so which is it death or a life time torture ? I'm sure that if most of you worked in the prison system and were witness to the sanity of a man slowly rotting in a cell and hearing the screams of mental pain and suffering you may re-think your stance on the issue...maybe ?

Godfather.

unless they enjoy dwelling in some nasty monster's misery vs' a quick exit saving a lot of tax dollars

Pingfah

Godfather. wrote:

so which is it death or a life time torture ?
Godfather.

Neither. I am against the Death Penalty, it is morally wrong. Prison should be a no frills but humane place, the primary purpose of which is to deprive criminals of their freedom, not their health or sanity, and to keep dangerous people away from the rest of the population.

Solitary confinement should be used when a prisoner is a danger to themselves or other prisoners, not for the purpose of torturing somebody.

The justice system should not be there to exact our base desire for revenge.

chadwick

Pingfah wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

so which is it death or a life time torture ?
Godfather.

Neither. I am against the Death Penalty, it is morally wrong. Prison should be a no frills but humane place, the primary purpose of which is to deprive criminals of their freedom, not their health or sanity, and to keep dangerous people away from the rest of the population.

Solitary confinement should be used when a prisoner is a danger to themselves or other prisoners, not for the purpose of torturing somebody.

The justice system should not be there to exact our base desire for revenge.

monsters get dental work at a constant. many many many americans haven't seen a dentist in years & can't afford too.

Pingfah

Then you should get a better healthcare system.

riotgrl

Godfather. wrote:

I just had an "early morning w/ no coffee yet thought"..
it seems as though the people on the train aginst the death penalty use the argument of life in solitary confinement
or in a small prison sell which is more painfull than death and in my mind that is a form of torture...is it not ? and some of those people that argue for life rather than the death penalty also argue that water bording and other forms of torture to get info from terorist is wrong...so which is it death or a life time torture ? I'm sure that if most of you worked in the prison system and were witness to the sanity of a man slowly rotting in a cell and hearing the screams of mental pain and suffering you may re-think your stance on the issue...maybe ?

Godfather.

Maybe.....maybe not. I just finished reading Damien Echols "Life after Death" and his descriptions of sitting on death row were harrowing. The problem comes when deciding guilt/innocence and nothing is ever as black and white as we would like it to be. I am generally a pretty soft hearted person so I don't like the idea of torture in any way but if you hurt children then fuck you I've got a hard heart at that point. Is it still torture to get the basics in life? Food, shelter, clothing, medical care would be granted. But some of the luxuries they have in prisons are insane. Of course, I am really for a complete overhaul of our system since supposedly prison is supposed to rehabilitate a person (obviously not the goal if you are on death row) which I do not think it does. Then again, I think we need a complete overhaul of our society to eliminate extreme poverty which I believe is the root of many of our problems today.

I understand what you are saying Godfather, I know that I (and many on here) am a paradox in many ways and the idea of torturing someone for any reason is against everything I believe in but there are exceptions to the rule and if someone is proven guilty and is on death row then you've committed some heinous crime and all bets are off.

riotgrl

Pingfah wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

so which is it death or a life time torture ?
Godfather.

Neither. I am against the Death Penalty, it is morally wrong. Prison should be a no frills but humane place, the primary purpose of which is to deprive criminals of their freedom, not their health or sanity, and to keep dangerous people away from the rest of the population.

Solitary confinement should be used when a prisoner is a danger to themselves or other prisoners, not for the purpose of torturing somebody.

The justice system should not be there to exact our base desire for revenge.

I think this is what I was trying to say, not very successfully!

pdalowsky

Godfather. wrote:

I just had an "early morning w/ no coffee yet thought"..
it seems as though the people on the train aginst the death penalty use the argument of life in solitary confinement
or in a small prison sell which is more painfull than death and in my mind that is a form of torture...is it not ? and some of those people that argue for life rather than the death penalty also argue that water bording and other forms of torture to get info from terorist is wrong...so which is it death or a life time torture ? I'm sure that if most of you worked in the prison system and were witness to the sanity of a man slowly rotting in a cell and hearing the screams of mental pain and suffering you may re-think your stance on the issue...maybe ?

Godfather.

interesting points, and its essential to deal with objectively and not fall into the 'if someone hurt one of my children' subjectivity.

I think people feel that the criminals at the worst end of the scale that presently qualify for a death sentence where one is still administered, deserve severe punishment, whether that constitutes torture or not. I am one of those who doesn't like any form of suffering, but there has to be a deterrent. Im sure the prisons that have solitary are dire dire places, but remain fitting for the monsters that commit the most obscene crimes. To be quite honest, their mental state is of little concern to many given the crimes they were able to commit.

I think the American system is far more fitting than the UK system in terms of punishment for a crime. I visit the prisons out here, and seriously many of them are far from a deterrent.

pdalowsky

Godfather. wrote:

I just had an "early morning w/ no coffee yet thought"..
it seems as though the people on the train aginst the death penalty use the argument of life in solitary confinement
or in a small prison sell which is more painfull than death and in my mind that is a form of torture...is it not ? and some of those people that argue for life rather than the death penalty also argue that water bording and other forms of torture to get info from terorist is wrong...so which is it death or a life time torture ? I'm sure that if most of you worked in the prison system and were witness to the sanity of a man slowly rotting in a cell and hearing the screams of mental pain and suffering you may re-think your stance on the issue...maybe ?

Godfather.

interesting points, and its essential to deal with objectively and not fall into the 'if someone hurt one of my children' subjectivity.

I think people feel that the criminals at the worst end of the scale that presently qualify for a death sentence where one is still administered, deserve severe punishment, whether that constitutes torture or not. I am one of those who doesn't like any form of suffering, but there has to be a deterrent. Im sure the prisons that have solitary are dire dire places, but remain fitting for the monsters that commit the most obscene crimes. To be quite honest, their mental state is of little concern to many given the crimes they were able to commit.

I think the American system is far more fitting than the UK system in terms of punishment for a crime. I visit the prisons out here, and seriously many of them are far from a deterrent.

Godfather.

pdalowsky wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

I just had an "early morning w/ no coffee yet thought"..
it seems as though the people on the train aginst the death penalty use the argument of life in solitary confinement
or in a small prison sell which is more painfull than death and in my mind that is a form of torture...is it not ? and some of those people that argue for life rather than the death penalty also argue that water bording and other forms of torture to get info from terorist is wrong...so which is it death or a life time torture ? I'm sure that if most of you worked in the prison system and were witness to the sanity of a man slowly rotting in a cell and hearing the screams of mental pain and suffering you may re-think your stance on the issue...maybe ?

Godfather.

interesting points, and its essential to deal with objectively and not fall into the 'if someone hurt one of my children' subjectivity.

I think people feel that the criminals at the worst end of the scale that presently qualify for a death sentence where one is still administered, deserve severe punishment, whether that constitutes torture or not. I am one of those who doesn't like any form of suffering, but there has to be a deterrent. Im sure the prisons that have solitary are dire dire places, but remain fitting for the monsters that commit the most obscene crimes. To be quite honest, their mental state is of little concern to many given the crimes they were able to commit.

I think the American system is far more fitting than the UK system in terms of punishment for a crime. I visit the prisons out here, and seriously many of them are far from a deterrent.

I see your point "their mental state is of little concern to many given the crimes they were able to commit"
so then why is a death sentance different ? it just goes to prove that many people that are aginst the death penalty still want the offender to suffer in some way for the rest of their lives, I just find it odd that some find the death penalty a cruel punishment and still opt for a life time of mental anguish which in some cases leeds to death one way or another be it by another inmate or suiside or "natural causes" brought on by the brains abilty to shut down the entire bodys system when it is over loaded with pain,so is a death sentanse handed down by those means different than one being handed down by the state ?

I'm not looking for argument I'm just pointing out that some peoples thoughts on the death penalty couyld be one in the same to a degree.


Godfather.

pdalowsky

of course there is no right or wrong answer.

Im not a fan of either punishments, but the death sentence stands out as a hideous form of punishment to me as it involves both instant death and mental torture combined. OK the torture is brief, but that person on the day or week leading to his execution knows that as the seconds tick down he is closer to a pre determined date of death. When they come to collect him for the 'walk'.....that must be horrendous. I know these people committed awful crimes, but I find it uncomprehend able to be in that situation knowing you would die in an hours time.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Pingfah wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

so which is it death or a life time torture ?
Godfather.

Neither. I am against the Death Penalty, it is morally wrong. Prison should be a no frills but humane place, the primary purpose of which is to deprive criminals of their freedom, not their health or sanity, and to keep dangerous people away from the rest of the population.

Solitary confinement should be used when a prisoner is a danger to themselves or other prisoners, not for the purpose of torturing somebody.

The justice system should not be there to exact our base desire for revenge.

You might call it 'revenge'... William Petit and countless others call it 'justice'.

When a depraved monster acts inhumanely towards a beautiful, innocent little child... our 'justice' system (not revenge system) needs to reflect our level of disdain and intolerance for such behaviour.

When a scumbag rapes, mutilates and murders children... they should not serve time like an accountant who has embezzled money. They have more than earned a punishment that meets the level of their crime.

The survivors should be the justice system's priority- not the child's murderer. In this particular case, the Petit family demanded the state seek execution and fortunately, the state has granted their wishes. Who are we to sit back, relatively unaffected by the crime (although if you have a heart you are), and reduce the survivors to onlookers because our values don't mesh with their needs?

Petit never asked for these shitbags to enter their home, beat him with a bat, rape his wife and 11 year old daughter, douse the girls in gasoline, and light the house on fire as if it was a day's work. These assholes more than deserve the worst thing that could happen to them. One is asking to be executed immediately while the state drags their feet. Grant him his wish. Why must people feel as if they know better in the aftermath of such a horrific event?

Pingfah

There is no place for emotional outbursts in the justice system. Emotions cloud judgement, they must be set aside.

A fair justice system is a rational, logical one, not one based upon our "feelings".

polaris_x

it's not a matter of knowing what is right ... to be against the death penalty is not so much about perceived justice but simply a value system representing itself ...

i choose not to eat dogs and cats but will gladly eat a chicken or fish ... it's not to say its right or wrong to do either but simply my personal beliefs representing itself ... of course in all manners of life we have our hypocrisies but they do not necessarily lessen or enhance our decisions ...

i choose to be opposed to the death penalty because as a society using violence to solve problems serves no purpose but to allow that violence is a reasonable tool ... it's for the same reasons i am anti-war ...