In Kamloops, the prisoners were so undignified at their treatment, they rioted. They had enough of their poor treatment and they resorted to violence to show their displeasure.
At the Kamloops Regional Correctional Centre in Canada, inmates started a fire and destroyed property, causing $80,000 in damage. Why? As the court document put it, they were ticked about the "size and number of pancakes" served at brunch.
Man... things are tough when your pancakes are too thin causing you to bust into a riot.
Same prison purchases a dozen Xbox units each year so that the dudes 'doing time' can spend it better than impoverished kids can.
I'll concede that some prisons are harsh and brutal, but there are some that are too cushy for my liking. When you send a child murderer to prison... you don't wish to hear of them in the 'open prison' system just as you don't want to hear of them enraged because their pancakes are too thin or that they have the high score in Grand Theft Auto.
Okay. And dreaming of medieval times when people were drawn and quartered isn't dramatic? Or rhetorically asking if one knows that a jail isn't a country club isn't dramatic?
Geez, man. How can one make a case when one side of the issue so readily employs tactics when it works for them, yet so easily dismisses them when confronted with them?
But you're perfectly happy to see the prisoner above raped by his fellow inmates, and possibly beaten, and/or killed? I'm sure some would argue that hanging-drawing-and quartering him would be preferable.
In Kamloops, the prisoners were so undignified at their treatment, they rioted. They had enough of their poor treatment and they resorted to violence to show their displeasure.
At the Kamloops Regional Correctional Centre in Canada, inmates started a fire and destroyed property, causing $80,000 in damage. Why? As the court document put it, they were ticked about the "size and number of pancakes" served at brunch.
Man... things are tough when your pancakes are too thin causing you to bust into a riot.
Same prison purchases a dozen Xbox units each year so that the dudes 'doing time' can spend it better than impoverished kids can.
I'll concede that some prisons are harsh and brutal, but there are some that are too cushy for my liking. When you send a child murderer to prison... you don't wish to hear of them in the 'open prison' system just as you don't want to hear of them enraged because their pancakes are too thin or that they have the high score in Grand Theft Auto.
The hair that broke the camels back. I read about a prison riot in Guatemala - or was it Venezuela? - recently where a dozen or so inmates were killed. It began over a triviality, but had been brewing for a long time, due to abuse by prison guards, over-crowding, and poor conditions generally.
But then, you think prison's a breeze, right? For arguments sake, let's just imagine that they did riot due to thin pancakes. What does that tell you? it tells me that one of the few highlights/pleasures in their lives is a pancake every day. And that, those pancakes mean so much to them that they're prepared to riot, and risk getting killed, and landed longer sentences in the process.
Sounds like their lives in that paradise you call jail must be Heaven on Earth.
But you're perfectly happy to see the prisoner above raped by his fellow inmates, and possibly beaten, and/or killed? I'm sure some would argue that hanging-drawing-and quartering him would be preferable.
I find it appalling that people seem to think it's acceptable that prisoners are going to be raped as a matter of course when they're sent to prison. I find it totally unacceptable and do not think that rape should be an acceptable form of punishment. If our prisons can't reasonably guarantee that a prisoner will not be raped, then we shouldn't be sending people there.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I wish to make you sure that you understand I am only arguing that prison is 'cushy' for those that murder our children. For the guy that is in prison for embezzling money... prison would be brutal. For those that murder our innocent women and children, prison is too good.
But as I clarify this position... I find the irony incredibly rich here. Prisons are generally unsafe places because of the violent offenders that populate them. So... am I supposed to feel sorry for a child murderer because they must face hatred, look over their shoulders and live in fear in a prison for their crime- just as their victims needed to from them? I don't.
Through 75 pages of this thread, Byrnzie, I have yet to even see you make the slightest acknowledgement towards the victims. Hugh as been as steadfast as you in his beliefs, but at times, has made reference to the complexity of the issue. I go to my daughter's soccer games and all around the field, I see parents, grandparents, brothers, and sisters watching and cheering their most precious commodity. And as I do this, I understand that somewhere... some group is unable to experience the joy their daughter could give them because they are tortured with a story unfit for a human to endure. You seem to think very little of this fact in your zealous efforts to be critical of those that support the DP to offer solace for those that seek it as justice. Then you go further suggesting, at times, that prison is too harsh as well.
Try loving something so much that the very thought of losing it in horrific fashion would shred your insides and leave you a quivering mess for the rest of your life. Then consider the source of the loss and the conditions of the loss. Then tell me you wouldn't want justice served that amounted to more than an open prison term such as the one afforded to McGreavy.
I find it appalling that people seem to think it's acceptable that prisoners are going to be raped as a matter of course when they're sent to prison. I find it totally unacceptable and do not think that rape should be an acceptable form of punishment. If our prisons can't reasonably guarantee that a prisoner will not be raped, then we shouldn't be sending people there.
I'm not sure where that leaves us. Where should we be sending them?
But you're perfectly happy to see the prisoner above raped by his fellow inmates, and possibly beaten, and/or killed? I'm sure some would argue that hanging-drawing-and quartering him would be preferable.
I find it appalling that people seem to think it's acceptable that prisoners are going to be raped as a matter of course when they're sent to prison. I find it totally unacceptable and do not think that rape should be an acceptable form of punishment. If our prisons can't reasonably guarantee that a prisoner will not be raped, then we shouldn't be sending people there.
Nobody is 'happy' that these are the conditions. You two should get over yourselves. When you house a whole bunch of violent offenders in one location... what exactly do you think is going to happen? As much as I wish they wouldn't happen anywhere... it is better rapes occur there than out on the street for gawd's sakes.
And I find it equally appalling that people think so little of survivors' pain that they think a nice, gentle pat on the head, a seat in the back of the court room, and cooing "there there now" should suffice when we set about dealing with the murderer of their child. Because, like, they're all emotional and stuff.
Why don't you shift your focus away from the comfort of the depraved murderer and towards your brutal oversight of the victims?
But you're perfectly happy to see the prisoner above raped by his fellow inmates, and possibly beaten, and/or killed? I'm sure some would argue that hanging-drawing-and quartering him would be preferable.
I find it appalling that people seem to think it's acceptable that prisoners are going to be raped as a matter of course when they're sent to prison. I find it totally unacceptable and do not think that rape should be an acceptable form of punishment. If our prisons can't reasonably guarantee that a prisoner will not be raped, then we shouldn't be sending people there.
Nobody is 'happy' that these are the conditions. You two should get over yourselves. When you house a whole bunch of violent offenders in one location... what exactly do you think is going to happen? As much as I wish they wouldn't happen anywhere... it is better rapes occur there than out on the street for gawd's sakes.
And I find it equally appalling that people think so little of survivors' pain that they think a nice, gentle pat on the head, a seat in the back of the court room, and cooing "there there now" should suffice when we set about dealing with the murderer of their child. Because, like, they're all emotional and stuff.
Why don't you shift your focus away from the comfort of the depraved murderer and towards your brutal oversight of the victims?
State sanctioned execution promotes killing as an answer to resolving conflict so abolishing does protect future victims.
State sanctioned execution promotes killing as an answer to resolving conflict so abolishing does protect future victims.
Future innocent victims? Or future victims that made their own bed by murdering kids?
Don't want to get executed? Then don't play out your sick fantasies on living flesh.
Holy Christ, man.
Kill and holy Christ in same post. You missed my point. Do understand my responsibility to convey my message. Glad you didn't bail on this thread, seriously.
State sanctioned execution promotes killing as an answer to resolving conflict so abolishing does protect future victims.
Future innocent victims? Or future victims that made their own bed by murdering kids?
Don't want to get executed? Then don't play out your sick fantasies on living flesh.
Holy Christ, man.
Kill and holy Christ in same post. You missed my point. Do understand my responsibility to convey my message. Glad you didn't bail on this thread, seriously.
Can you clarify your point? Because I certainly missed it too. Thanks.
State sanctioned execution promotes killing as an answer to resolving conflict so abolishing does protect future victims.
Future innocent victims? Or future victims that made their own bed by murdering kids?
Don't want to get executed? Then don't play out your sick fantasies on living flesh.
Holy Christ, man.
If we as a society use killing as a means of solving a problem then we as a society are saying that killing is an okay way to resolve problems and therefore tells members of our society that this is a viable means and it's not so atrocious as it truly is. Bad grammar I know.
If we as a society use killing as a means of solving a problem then we as a society are saying that killing is an okay way to resolve problems and therefore tells members of our society that this is a viable means and it's not so atrocious as it truly is. Bad grammar I know.
Thanks for clarifying.
I do disagree. A killer who has been convicted of murder has committed one of the highest crimes imaginable in our society. When the state tries that person, convicts, sentences, allows for all appeals, and then carries out the sentence, it is preventing that killer from ever killing again. Not another innocent civilian, not another inmate, not a member of the prison staff...no one else is killed by this murderer. Execution has solved the problem, but that is not to say the state's action is the same as the killer's and should not be regarded as such.
But you're perfectly happy to see the prisoner above raped by his fellow inmates, and possibly beaten, and/or killed? I'm sure some would argue that hanging-drawing-and quartering him would be preferable.
I find it appalling that people seem to think it's acceptable that prisoners are going to be raped as a matter of course when they're sent to prison. I find it totally unacceptable and do not think that rape should be an acceptable form of punishment. If our prisons can't reasonably guarantee that a prisoner will not be raped, then we shouldn't be sending people there.
Nobody is 'happy' that these are the conditions. You two should get over yourselves. When you house a whole bunch of violent offenders in one location... what exactly do you think is going to happen? As much as I wish they wouldn't happen anywhere... it is better rapes occur there than out on the street for gawd's sakes.
And I find it equally appalling that people think so little of survivors' pain that they think a nice, gentle pat on the head, a seat in the back of the court room, and cooing "there there now" should suffice when we set about dealing with the murderer of their child. Because, like, they're all emotional and stuff.
Why don't you shift your focus away from the comfort of the depraved murderer and towards your brutal oversight of the victims?
I think lots about the victims and survivors and have incredible sympathy for them. We can start a separate thread about that if we want, but this thread is about the punishment for the crime, not about feeling sorry for the victims.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
But you're perfectly happy to see the prisoner above raped by his fellow inmates, and possibly beaten, and/or killed? I'm sure some would argue that hanging-drawing-and quartering him would be preferable.
I find it appalling that people seem to think it's acceptable that prisoners are going to be raped as a matter of course when they're sent to prison. I find it totally unacceptable and do not think that rape should be an acceptable form of punishment. If our prisons can't reasonably guarantee that a prisoner will not be raped, then we shouldn't be sending people there.
Nobody is 'happy' that these are the conditions. You two should get over yourselves. When you house a whole bunch of violent offenders in one location... what exactly do you think is going to happen? As much as I wish they wouldn't happen anywhere... it is better rapes occur there than out on the street for gawd's sakes.
And I find it equally appalling that people think so little of survivors' pain that they think a nice, gentle pat on the head, a seat in the back of the court room, and cooing "there there now" should suffice when we set about dealing with the murderer of their child. Because, like, they're all emotional and stuff.
Why don't you shift your focus away from the comfort of the depraved murderer and towards your brutal oversight of the victims?
Again, if we are confining people somewhere we they can basically count on being raped repeatedly, then we have no business confining them there. I think it's a huge issue. I know they're criminals. I know they're being punished. But I also know that none of our punishment guidelines include repeated rape, and yet they're basically guaranteed that will happen to them there. It's wrong, IMO.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Nobody is 'happy' that these are the conditions. You two should get over yourselves. When you house a whole bunch of violent offenders in one location... what exactly do you think is going to happen? As much as I wish they wouldn't happen anywhere... it is better rapes occur there than out on the street for gawd's sakes.
And I find it equally appalling that people think so little of survivors' pain that they think a nice, gentle pat on the head, a seat in the back of the court room, and cooing "there there now" should suffice when we set about dealing with the murderer of their child. Because, like, they're all emotional and stuff.
Why don't you shift your focus away from the comfort of the depraved murderer and towards your brutal oversight of the victims?
I think lots about the victims and survivors and have incredible sympathy for them. We can start a separate thread about that if we want, but this thread is about the punishment for the crime, not about feeling sorry for the victims.
While it certainly helps the argument against capital punishment by removing the victims and survivors, these groups are at the very core of the argument. It's not only about 'feeling sorry for them' (what a way to put that :? )... it's about offering them justice and showing our support for them and outrage at the crime they were forced to deal with.
Nobody is 'happy' that these are the conditions. You two should get over yourselves. When you house a whole bunch of violent offenders in one location... what exactly do you think is going to happen? As much as I wish they wouldn't happen anywhere... it is better rapes occur there than out on the street for gawd's sakes.
And I find it equally appalling that people think so little of survivors' pain that they think a nice, gentle pat on the head, a seat in the back of the court room, and cooing "there there now" should suffice when we set about dealing with the murderer of their child. Because, like, they're all emotional and stuff.
Why don't you shift your focus away from the comfort of the depraved murderer and towards your brutal oversight of the victims?
I think lots about the victims and survivors and have incredible sympathy for them. We can start a separate thread about that if we want, but this thread is about the punishment for the crime, not about feeling sorry for the victims.
While it certainly helps the argument against capital punishment by removing the victims and survivors, these groups are at the very core of the argument. It's not only about 'feeling sorry for them' (what a way to put that :? )... it's about offering them justice and showing our support for them and outrage at the crime they were forced to deal with.
My point is that my OPINION is that I'm discussing punishment of criminals and that the victims/survivors really don't factor much into the discussion. You obviously have a different opinion.
Furthermore, I don't believe that killing someone SHOULD make the victims/survivors feel better and that's another reason that I don't factor them into my comments.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Through 75 pages of this thread, Byrnzie, I have yet to even see you make the slightest acknowledgement towards the victims...I understand that somewhere... some group is unable to experience the joy their daughter could give them because they are tortured with a story unfit for a human to endure. You seem to think very little of this fact in your zealous efforts to be critical of those that support the DP to offer solace for those that seek it as justice. Then you go further suggesting, at times, that prison is too harsh as well.
You mean you've yet to see me make the slightest acknowledgement that people should be murdered by the State? Yeah, well spotted.
Maybe when the day comes when 'society' can prove itself to be pure, and perfect in every way, I'll change my mind on the issue.
Like I said above, these criminals didn't evolve in a vacuum. They are a product of the society they live in. Maybe that same society should take a degree of responsibility for that before condemning them to death for the crimes they've committed.
As for justice, it's nothing of the sort. It's called revenge. Civilized societies shouldn't operate on the level of emotions such as revenge.
As for suggesting that prison is too harsh; no, I said that prisoners shouldn't be subjected to beatings and rape. That's not the same thing as siding with murderers and child rapists, though I can see how suggesting that it is helps further your argument.
And I find it equally appalling that people think so little of survivors' pain that they think a nice, gentle pat on the head, a seat in the back of the court room, and cooing "there there now" should suffice.
Except nobody here said anything of the sort. Though it is revealing that you have to resort to concocting fantasies to support your case.
[Execution has solved the problem, but that is not to say the state's action is the same as the killer's and should not be regarded as such.
No, it's carefully thought out, premeditated murder cloaked in the name of 'justice'. It's one of the most depraved acts - if not the most depraved act - on the face of the Earth.
And as for 'solving the problem', it doesn't solve anything. Like Callen said, it just teaches people that murder is an acceptable solution, and it degrades society to the level of those it condemns.
If we as a society use killing as a means of solving a problem then we as a society are saying that killing is an okay way to resolve problems and therefore tells members of our society that this is a viable means and it's not so atrocious as it truly is. Bad grammar I know.
Thanks for clarifying.
I do disagree. A killer who has been convicted of murder has committed one of the highest crimes imaginable in our society. When the state tries that person, convicts, sentences, allows for all appeals, and then carries out the sentence, it is preventing that killer from ever killing again. Not another innocent civilian, not another inmate, not a member of the prison staff...no one else is killed by this murderer. Execution has solved the problem, but that is not to say the state's action is the same as the killer's and should not be regarded as such.
This is very well said.
Not to mention that there is an alternative school of thought that suggests by not responding to the crime with the level of punishment that meets it... we are sending the message that these types of crimes are not as atrocious as they truly are. When murderers serve time just as car thieves or drug dealers do... the atrocity of the crime itself is minimized to say the least.
Not to mention that there is an alternative school of thought that suggests by not responding to the crime with the level of punishment that meets it... we are sending the message that these types of crimes are not as atrocious as they truly are. When murderers serve time just as car thieves or drug dealers do... the atrocity of the crime itself is minimized to say the least.
Except the U.S has been murdering it's murderers for decades, and yet murder continues at a rate above that of any other Western country. So how does that fit into your scheme of things?
Through 75 pages of this thread, Byrnzie, I have yet to even see you make the slightest acknowledgement towards the victims...I understand that somewhere... some group is unable to experience the joy their daughter could give them because they are tortured with a story unfit for a human to endure. You seem to think very little of this fact in your zealous efforts to be critical of those that support the DP to offer solace for those that seek it as justice. Then you go further suggesting, at times, that prison is too harsh as well.
You mean you've yet to see me make the slightest acknowledgement that people should be murdered by the State? Yeah, well spotted.
Maybe when the day comes when 'society' can prove itself to be pure, and perfect in every way, I'll change my mind on the issue.
Like I said above, these criminals didn't evolve in a vacuum. They are a product of the society they live in. Maybe that same society should take a degree of responsibility for that before condemning them to death for the crimes they've committed.
As for justice, it's nothing of the sort. It's called revenge. Civilized societies shouldn't operate on the level of emotions such as revenge.
As for suggesting that prison is too harsh; no, I said that prisoners shouldn't be subjected to beatings and rape. That's not the same thing as siding with murderers and child rapists, though I can see how suggesting that it is helps further your argument.
You are blaming society now for the actions of its depraved? Let me just say that in some cases, some have been shaped somewhat by their experiences... but with that said... many have endured much more and have not resorted to torturing people. Come on, man.
By the way... were you ever going to make a comment on the Monster of Worcester spending time in an 'open prison' setting? Is the 'open prison' what you would like to see for fellows such as this guy? Is this what you would consider justice and appropriate for someone many consider severely depraved?
Not to mention that there is an alternative school of thought that suggests by not responding to the crime with the level of punishment that meets it... we are sending the message that these types of crimes are not as atrocious as they truly are. When murderers serve time just as car thieves or drug dealers do... the atrocity of the crime itself is minimized to say the least.
Except the U.S has been murdering it's murderers for decades, and yet murder continues at a rate above that of any other Western country. So how does that fit into your scheme of things?
Both schools of thought are what I described before: just fluff. They sound good based on what the listener wishes to hear, but, in effect, they offer nothing.
If I am looking into the US murder rate, I would look at gun ownership, poverty, inequities within the systems, alcohol and drug use, and other such variables before I would begin to think that capital punishment is at the root of murderous mindsets.
[Execution has solved the problem, but that is not to say the state's action is the same as the killer's and should not be regarded as such.
No, it's carefully thought out, premeditated murder cloaked in the name of 'justice'. It's one of the most depraved acts - if not the most depraved act - on the face of the Earth.
And as for 'solving the problem', it doesn't solve anything. Like Callen said, it just teaches people that murder is an acceptable solution, and it degrades society to the level of those it condemns.
No, it is the ultimate punishment reserved for the ultimate crimes. And it does solve the problem 100% of the time. Not a single murderer executed by the state has ever or will ever kill again.
But you're perfectly happy to see the prisoner above raped by his fellow inmates, and possibly beaten, and/or killed? I'm sure some would argue that hanging-drawing-and quartering him would be preferable.
I find it appalling that people seem to think it's acceptable that prisoners are going to be raped as a matter of course when they're sent to prison. I find it totally unacceptable and do not think that rape should be an acceptable form of punishment. If our prisons can't reasonably guarantee that a prisoner will not be raped, then we shouldn't be sending people there.
I agree, it is very distasteful and rather macabre for people to make all the rape comments. Everyone should only be horrified that such things go on within prisons... They should also keep in mind that not everyone in prison is a child murderer, or a murderer, or a violent criminal in any way, yet are subjected to the same culture of brutality in prison (a culture that tends to make those who will be released MORE likely to re-offend rather than less). It's all bad and shouldn't be talked about as though it's just another form of punishment and revenge against psychopaths.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
[Execution has solved the problem, but that is not to say the state's action is the same as the killer's and should not be regarded as such.
No, it's carefully thought out, premeditated murder cloaked in the name of 'justice'. It's one of the most depraved acts - if not the most depraved act - on the face of the Earth.
And as for 'solving the problem', it doesn't solve anything. Like Callen said, it just teaches people that murder is an acceptable solution, and it degrades society to the level of those it condemns.
No, it is the ultimate punishment reserved for the ultimate crimes. And it does solve the problem 100% of the time. Not a single murderer executed by the state has ever or will ever kill again.
It doesn't seem to change the murder rate, though, so you really can't say it's solving the problem.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I agree, it is very distasteful and rather macabre for people to make all the rape comments. Everyone should only be horrified that such things go on within prisons... They should also keep in mind that not everyone in prison is a child murderer, or a murderer, or a violent criminal in any way, yet are subjected to the same culture of brutality in prison (a culture that tends to make those who will be released MORE likely to re-offend rather than less). It's all bad and shouldn't be talked about as though it's just another form of punishment and revenge against psychopaths.
It not only shouldn't be talked about and applauded like some people do, but it should be STOPPED. If it is such a common practice that it's widely accepted that it WILL happen to prisoners, than our government should be charged with crimes for allowing it to happen.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
No, it is the ultimate punishment reserved for the ultimate crimes. And it does solve the problem 100% of the time. Not a single murderer executed by the state has ever or will ever kill again.
It doesn't seem to change the murder rate, though, so you really can't say it's solving the problem.
True, but the murder rate overall is not the problem I see it solving. The rate of murders committed by those who have their death sentence carried out is zero. We cannot say the same for those who have been sentenced to prison.
[Execution has solved the problem, but that is not to say the state's action is the same as the killer's and should not be regarded as such.
No, it's carefully thought out, premeditated murder cloaked in the name of 'justice'. It's one of the most depraved acts - if not the most depraved act - on the face of the Earth.
And as for 'solving the problem', it doesn't solve anything. Like Callen said, it just teaches people that murder is an acceptable solution, and it degrades society to the level of those it condemns.
No, it is the ultimate punishment reserved for the ultimate crimes. And it does solve the problem 100% of the time. Not a single murderer executed by the state has ever or will ever kill again.
And you are okay with a few innocent people getting killed along the way? There will never be a system created where this will not happen and this is what's happening right now with our current system to which you now support.
Comments
At the Kamloops Regional Correctional Centre in Canada, inmates started a fire and destroyed property, causing $80,000 in damage. Why? As the court document put it, they were ticked about the "size and number of pancakes" served at brunch.
Man... things are tough when your pancakes are too thin causing you to bust into a riot.
Same prison purchases a dozen Xbox units each year so that the dudes 'doing time' can spend it better than impoverished kids can.
I'll concede that some prisons are harsh and brutal, but there are some that are too cushy for my liking. When you send a child murderer to prison... you don't wish to hear of them in the 'open prison' system just as you don't want to hear of them enraged because their pancakes are too thin or that they have the high score in Grand Theft Auto.
But you're perfectly happy to see the prisoner above raped by his fellow inmates, and possibly beaten, and/or killed? I'm sure some would argue that hanging-drawing-and quartering him would be preferable.
The hair that broke the camels back. I read about a prison riot in Guatemala - or was it Venezuela? - recently where a dozen or so inmates were killed. It began over a triviality, but had been brewing for a long time, due to abuse by prison guards, over-crowding, and poor conditions generally.
But then, you think prison's a breeze, right? For arguments sake, let's just imagine that they did riot due to thin pancakes. What does that tell you? it tells me that one of the few highlights/pleasures in their lives is a pancake every day. And that, those pancakes mean so much to them that they're prepared to riot, and risk getting killed, and landed longer sentences in the process.
Sounds like their lives in that paradise you call jail must be Heaven on Earth.
I find it appalling that people seem to think it's acceptable that prisoners are going to be raped as a matter of course when they're sent to prison. I find it totally unacceptable and do not think that rape should be an acceptable form of punishment. If our prisons can't reasonably guarantee that a prisoner will not be raped, then we shouldn't be sending people there.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
But as I clarify this position... I find the irony incredibly rich here. Prisons are generally unsafe places because of the violent offenders that populate them. So... am I supposed to feel sorry for a child murderer because they must face hatred, look over their shoulders and live in fear in a prison for their crime- just as their victims needed to from them? I don't.
Through 75 pages of this thread, Byrnzie, I have yet to even see you make the slightest acknowledgement towards the victims. Hugh as been as steadfast as you in his beliefs, but at times, has made reference to the complexity of the issue. I go to my daughter's soccer games and all around the field, I see parents, grandparents, brothers, and sisters watching and cheering their most precious commodity. And as I do this, I understand that somewhere... some group is unable to experience the joy their daughter could give them because they are tortured with a story unfit for a human to endure. You seem to think very little of this fact in your zealous efforts to be critical of those that support the DP to offer solace for those that seek it as justice. Then you go further suggesting, at times, that prison is too harsh as well.
Try loving something so much that the very thought of losing it in horrific fashion would shred your insides and leave you a quivering mess for the rest of your life. Then consider the source of the loss and the conditions of the loss. Then tell me you wouldn't want justice served that amounted to more than an open prison term such as the one afforded to McGreavy.
I'm not sure where that leaves us. Where should we be sending them?
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Nobody is 'happy' that these are the conditions. You two should get over yourselves. When you house a whole bunch of violent offenders in one location... what exactly do you think is going to happen? As much as I wish they wouldn't happen anywhere... it is better rapes occur there than out on the street for gawd's sakes.
And I find it equally appalling that people think so little of survivors' pain that they think a nice, gentle pat on the head, a seat in the back of the court room, and cooing "there there now" should suffice when we set about dealing with the murderer of their child. Because, like, they're all emotional and stuff.
Why don't you shift your focus away from the comfort of the depraved murderer and towards your brutal oversight of the victims?
Future innocent victims? Or future victims that made their own bed by murdering kids?
Don't want to get executed? Then don't play out your sick fantasies on living flesh.
Holy Christ, man.
Can you clarify your point? Because I certainly missed it too. Thanks.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Thanks for clarifying.
I do disagree. A killer who has been convicted of murder has committed one of the highest crimes imaginable in our society. When the state tries that person, convicts, sentences, allows for all appeals, and then carries out the sentence, it is preventing that killer from ever killing again. Not another innocent civilian, not another inmate, not a member of the prison staff...no one else is killed by this murderer. Execution has solved the problem, but that is not to say the state's action is the same as the killer's and should not be regarded as such.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
I think lots about the victims and survivors and have incredible sympathy for them. We can start a separate thread about that if we want, but this thread is about the punishment for the crime, not about feeling sorry for the victims.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Again, if we are confining people somewhere we they can basically count on being raped repeatedly, then we have no business confining them there. I think it's a huge issue. I know they're criminals. I know they're being punished. But I also know that none of our punishment guidelines include repeated rape, and yet they're basically guaranteed that will happen to them there. It's wrong, IMO.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
While it certainly helps the argument against capital punishment by removing the victims and survivors, these groups are at the very core of the argument. It's not only about 'feeling sorry for them' (what a way to put that :? )... it's about offering them justice and showing our support for them and outrage at the crime they were forced to deal with.
My point is that my OPINION is that I'm discussing punishment of criminals and that the victims/survivors really don't factor much into the discussion. You obviously have a different opinion.
Furthermore, I don't believe that killing someone SHOULD make the victims/survivors feel better and that's another reason that I don't factor them into my comments.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
You mean you've yet to see me make the slightest acknowledgement that people should be murdered by the State? Yeah, well spotted.
Maybe when the day comes when 'society' can prove itself to be pure, and perfect in every way, I'll change my mind on the issue.
Like I said above, these criminals didn't evolve in a vacuum. They are a product of the society they live in. Maybe that same society should take a degree of responsibility for that before condemning them to death for the crimes they've committed.
As for justice, it's nothing of the sort. It's called revenge. Civilized societies shouldn't operate on the level of emotions such as revenge.
As for suggesting that prison is too harsh; no, I said that prisoners shouldn't be subjected to beatings and rape. That's not the same thing as siding with murderers and child rapists, though I can see how suggesting that it is helps further your argument.
Except nobody here said anything of the sort. Though it is revealing that you have to resort to concocting fantasies to support your case.
No, it's carefully thought out, premeditated murder cloaked in the name of 'justice'. It's one of the most depraved acts - if not the most depraved act - on the face of the Earth.
And as for 'solving the problem', it doesn't solve anything. Like Callen said, it just teaches people that murder is an acceptable solution, and it degrades society to the level of those it condemns.
This is very well said.
Not to mention that there is an alternative school of thought that suggests by not responding to the crime with the level of punishment that meets it... we are sending the message that these types of crimes are not as atrocious as they truly are. When murderers serve time just as car thieves or drug dealers do... the atrocity of the crime itself is minimized to say the least.
Except the U.S has been murdering it's murderers for decades, and yet murder continues at a rate above that of any other Western country. So how does that fit into your scheme of things?
You are blaming society now for the actions of its depraved? Let me just say that in some cases, some have been shaped somewhat by their experiences... but with that said... many have endured much more and have not resorted to torturing people. Come on, man.
By the way... were you ever going to make a comment on the Monster of Worcester spending time in an 'open prison' setting? Is the 'open prison' what you would like to see for fellows such as this guy? Is this what you would consider justice and appropriate for someone many consider severely depraved?
Both schools of thought are what I described before: just fluff. They sound good based on what the listener wishes to hear, but, in effect, they offer nothing.
If I am looking into the US murder rate, I would look at gun ownership, poverty, inequities within the systems, alcohol and drug use, and other such variables before I would begin to think that capital punishment is at the root of murderous mindsets.
No, it is the ultimate punishment reserved for the ultimate crimes. And it does solve the problem 100% of the time. Not a single murderer executed by the state has ever or will ever kill again.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
It doesn't seem to change the murder rate, though, so you really can't say it's solving the problem.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
It not only shouldn't be talked about and applauded like some people do, but it should be STOPPED. If it is such a common practice that it's widely accepted that it WILL happen to prisoners, than our government should be charged with crimes for allowing it to happen.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
True, but the murder rate overall is not the problem I see it solving. The rate of murders committed by those who have their death sentence carried out is zero. We cannot say the same for those who have been sentenced to prison.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."