The exorbitant amount of money spent on capital cases should be spent on building super max prisons.
Or alternatively...
"...practically every time a prosecutor seeks the death penalty, they pull hundreds of thousands of dollars out of our local criminal justice system, dollars that therefore cannot be spent, say, on the homicide unit and getting uncaught killers off the street. And given that we have counties in this country where 50 percent of the killings can go unsolved each year, we are much better off spending our dollars on catching uncaught killers than killing the killers we’ve already caught and put in cages."- Benjamin Jealous (NAACP President)
The process is such only because we make it such. We really go out of our way to ensure child murderers have plenty of opportunity to show that somehow... they are not responsible for their atrocities.
It could be much quicker and much more efficient.
Especially the likes of Bernardo, the good colonel who humiliated their victims while recording it ... should have just walked them out the back of the court house and ended it. How 'bout the lovely Clifford Olson who continued to torment society while in prison and who got paid a sum of money for info ... really ... he should have been given 2 choices, give us the info and we'll be quick, if no info then it'll be slow and very painful.
Taking out some of these heinous criminals does not even come close to putting us on the same level ... these are monsters who caused great harm and in some cases great humiliation.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
The exorbitant amount of money spent on capital cases should be spent on building super max prisons.
Or alternatively...
"...practically every time a prosecutor seeks the death penalty, they pull hundreds of thousands of dollars out of our local criminal justice system, dollars that therefore cannot be spent, say, on the homicide unit and getting uncaught killers off the street. And given that we have counties in this country where 50 percent of the killings can go unsolved each year, we are much better off spending our dollars on catching uncaught killers than killing the killers we’ve already caught and put in cages."- Benjamin Jealous (NAACP President)
The process is such only because we make it such. We really go out of our way to ensure child murderers have plenty of opportunity to show that somehow... they are not responsible for their atrocities.
It could be much quicker and much more efficient.
If it is sped up, the likelihood of killing innocent people increases.
30 years of 3 square meals, internet privileges, sex dolls, magazines, books, physical activity, outstanding health care, fan mail, and someone doing your laundry for you somehow doesn't seem like justice for the rape, murder, and mutilation of an 8 year old girl. 30 Bills, 2013
Jail is just paradise, right? The person who wrote that is clearly an idiot.
The exorbitant amount of money spent on capital cases should be spent on building super max prisons.
Or alternatively...
"...practically every time a prosecutor seeks the death penalty, they pull hundreds of thousands of dollars out of our local criminal justice system, dollars that therefore cannot be spent, say, on the homicide unit and getting uncaught killers off the street. And given that we have counties in this country where 50 percent of the killings can go unsolved each year, we are much better off spending our dollars on catching uncaught killers than killing the killers we’ve already caught and put in cages."- Benjamin Jealous (NAACP President)
The process is such only because we make it such. We really go out of our way to ensure child murderers have plenty of opportunity to show that somehow... they are not responsible for their atrocities.
It could be much quicker and much more efficient.
You'd rather just fast-track them into the death chamber, would you? Including those wrongfully convicted in the first place.
You'd rather just fast-track them into the death chamber, would you? Including those wrongfully convicted in the first place.
Exactly
I believe in the death penalty, but it needs reform because too many are wrongly killed. They need 100% proof they did what they did in order to give one the death penalty.
~Carter~
You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense
30 years of 3 square meals, internet privileges, sex dolls, magazines, books, physical activity, outstanding health care, fan mail, and someone doing your laundry for you somehow doesn't seem like justice for the rape, murder, and mutilation of an 8 year old girl. 30 Bills, 2013
Jail is just paradise, right? The person who wrote that is clearly an idiot.
Not near the level of the idiot that once said the plight of the murderer on death row is far worse than that of two young girls who, after watching their family get slain, were held captive in bondage, raped and then killed. Remember you said because at least they might have been able to think of escaping?
You'd rather just fast-track them into the death chamber, would you? Including those wrongfully convicted in the first place.
Exactly
I believe in the death penalty, but it needs reform because too many are wrongly killed. They need 100% proof they did what they did in order to give one the death penalty.
The two misunderstood pieces of shit that killed the petit women were caught fleeing from the house and high fiving each other after raping and killing them. They also confessed. One wants to be executed because he is so full of shame. The surviving family member wants them dead. The courts have sentenced them to death.
Why the wait?
There is no question of guilt here just as there is no question that the very nature of the crime is beyond any level of forgiveness.
30 years of 3 square meals, internet privileges, sex dolls, magazines, books, physical activity, outstanding health care, fan mail, and someone doing your laundry for you somehow doesn't seem like justice for the rape, murder, and mutilation of an 8 year old girl. 30 Bills, 2013
Jail is just paradise, right? The person who wrote that is clearly an idiot.
Not near the level of the idiot that once said the plight of the murderer on death row is far worse than that of two young girls who, after watching their family get slain, were held captive in bondage, raped and then killed. Remember you said because at least they might have been able to think of escaping?
Clifford Olson's prison term was paradise.
Once again, you're embarrassing yourself [though you clearly don't even realize it] by calling Albert Camus an idiot.
Here's what he said:
'It adds to death a rule, a public premeditation known to the future victim, an organization, in short, which is in itself a source of moral sufferings more terrible than death. Hence there is no equivalence. Many laws consider a premeditated crime more serious than a crime of pure violence. But what then is capital punishment but the most premeditated of murders, to which no criminal's deed, however calculated it may be, can be compared?
For there to be equivalence, the death penalty would have to punish a criminal who had warned his victim of the date at which he would inflict a horrible death on him and who, from that moment onward, had confined him to his mercy for months. Such a monster is not encountered in private life.'
There is no question of guilt here just as there is no question that the very nature of the crime is beyond any level of forgiveness.
Once again, you claim to be 'God'. Not only do you think you have the right to decide who lives or dies, but you even think you can decide who deserves, or doesn't deserve, forgiveness.
Kind of ironic that it's just this type of megalomania, self-aggrandizement, and rigidity of thought, that produces serial killers, mass murderers, and dictators.
30 years of 3 square meals, internet privileges, sex dolls, magazines, books, physical activity, outstanding health care, fan mail, and someone doing your laundry for you somehow doesn't seem like justice for the rape, murder, and mutilation of an 8 year old girl. 30 Bills, 2013
Jail is just paradise, right? The person who wrote that is clearly an idiot.
Not near the level of the idiot that once said the plight of the murderer on death row is far worse than that of two young girls who, after watching their family get slain, were held captive in bondage, raped and then killed. Remember you said because at least they might have been able to think of escaping?
Clifford Olson's prison term was paradise.
Do you ever fantasize about life in the Middle Ages, where your Weekends entertainment could consist of seeing people hung, drawn and quartered and fed to the pigs? Or maybe Saudi Arabia, where thieves get their hands chopped off, and adulterers are beheaded in the local football stadiums?
It's just that, it seems you have a pretty unhealthy hard-on for people being murdered by the State in the name of 'justice'.
There is no question of guilt here just as there is no question that the very nature of the crime is beyond any level of forgiveness.
Once again, you claim to be 'God'. Not only do you think you have the right to decide who lives or dies, but you even think you can decide who deserves, or doesn't deserve, forgiveness.
Kind of ironic that it's just this type of megalomania, self-aggrandizement, and rigidity of thought, that produces serial killers, mass murderers, and dictators.
you cannot be serious?
those comments were expressed about a really really disturbingly nasty pair of people, one of whom has asked to be executed. He doesn't even ask for forgiveness, and certainly does not deserve any.
I will repeat again, I am anti DP, but the logic on that case along is tough to disagree with strongly.
as although im anti DP, if those bastards had done that to any of the people I love I know for a fact I could never forgive them. Im a peaceful person by my very nature, compassionate and caring, and that is exactly why I find it impossible to comprehend such brutality.
those comments were expressed about a really really disturbingly nasty pair of people, one of whom has asked to be executed. He doesn't even ask for forgiveness, and certainly does not deserve any.
I will repeat again, I am anti DP, but the logic on that case along is tough to disagree with strongly.
as although im anti DP, if those bastards had done that to any of the people I love I know for a fact I could never forgive them. Im a peaceful person by my very nature, compassionate and caring, and that is exactly why I find it impossible to comprehend such brutality.
He could produce 100 or 1000 gruesome cases of murders on here in order to try and gain support for the death penalty, but it makes zero difference to me. Do you really think that by posting details of a twisted murder that this then gives him the right to declare who should live or die, or who is, or isn't, deserving of forgiveness? I just hope that I never suffer such delusions of grandeur.
Like I asked before in this thread; isn't the test of any society, and it's moral foundation [if it has one, or pretends to have one], to exist on a higher footing than that of murderers, and rapists? Or should society allow itself to indulge in feelings of vengeance ("the needs of the victims families") and to sink to the level of those it condemns by murdering them in turn, in a premeditated, and calculated manner?
Someone in the Edward Snowden thread jumped up on his high horse and started frothing at the mouth about the fact I live in China, claiming that therefore I had no right to criticize the U.S government. (The same juvenile, pathetic response I've come to expect from certain flag-suckers). But what I wonder is: what's the difference? Both countries lie to, spy on, and murder their own citizens on a daily basis. As long as the U.S continues with the death penalty, then what makes it so different from China, or Iran? The Iranians murder their own citizens in the name of Islam (or a perverted idea of Islam). The Chinese murder their own citizens on the name of 'Communism', or State Power. And Americans murder their own citizens in the name of what? Christianity? The State? Justice?
As far as I'm concerned, the U.S is no better than any of these other countries as long as it continues murdering it's undesirables. These rapists and murderers didn't grow up in a vacuum. They are a product of their environment. Maybe the State should take some degree of responsibility for that before so confidently and self-righteously snuffing out their lives in turn.
Even Camus' eagerness to treat vile child murderers better than our homeless people... he likely isn't that far out of his mind.
and he was paraphrasing Camus.
maybe we've been on this merry go round too long, so maybe I've asked you this before, but have you ever investigated the conditions of being behind bars in max security? You do realize that jail is not exactly a country club, right?
I'd rather be homeless. No question about it.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
And, Byrnzie, I've noticed you have made this personal.
You have called me an idiot, medieval, delusional and a megalomaniac.
If I did something other than challenge your viewpoint in as respectful manner as possible, I apologize. If this is just obnoxious Internet behaviour... well... you know what you can do.
Even Camus' eagerness to treat vile child murderers better than our homeless people... he likely isn't that far out of his mind.
and he was paraphrasing Camus.
maybe we've been on this merry go round too long, so maybe I've asked you this before, but have you ever investigated the conditions of being behind bars in max security? You do realize that jail is not exactly a country club, right?
I'd rather be homeless. No question about it.
I know he was paraphrasing Camus. He extended the argument and made a ludicrous statement. You yourself even challenged him on it. Remember?
Prison was and is too good for some people. I'm done.
why the all rage against thirty bills unpaid? he comes across far more pleasant than myself. i suggest getting off of his back & taking yourselves a stroll to breathe some fresh air.
why the all rage against thirty bills unpaid? he comes across far more pleasant than myself. i suggest getting off of his back & taking yourselves a stroll to breathe some fresh air.
well said ...
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
You said a murderer on death row had it worse than the two young girls held captive that were raped and murdered.
No I didn't. I said, and quoted Camus to support my statement, that 10 or twenty years of knowing the exact date of your execution is a type of mental torture that exceeds any heat-of-the moment murder, in which escape is always a possibility.
You have called me an idiot, medieval, delusional and a megalomaniac.
No I didn't. I said that the type of thinking you've exhibited towards this particular issue is ironically the same mindset that inspires those same people you're condemning. Not quite the same thing.
You have called me an idiot, medieval, delusional and a megalomaniac.
No I didn't. I said that the type of thinking you've exhibited towards this particular issue is ironically the same mindset that inspires those same people you're condemning. Not quite the same thing.
30 years of 3 square meals, internet privileges, sex dolls, magazines, books, physical activity, outstanding health care, fan mail, and someone doing your laundry for you somehow doesn't seem like justice for the rape, murder, and mutilation of an 8 year old girl. 30 Bills, 2013
The link I provided for you detailed a serial murderer that killed his cell mate in prison. His cell mate was doing the same time as the serial murderer- even though his crime was assault (hardly multiple murders). If the serial killer had been executed for his first wave of murders, there would be one less victim to his list. A joke of a sentence, idiots suggesting he was on the mend and suitable for a medium security prison, and a dangerous homicidal man permitted to live led to a death. At least in this case, society was negligent to properly deal with the vile man and his obscenities
Secondly. I'm not saying that the death penalty is a prominent deterrent. You are correct when you suggest that is is unlikely to stop someone hell bent on murdering someone. But it would be completely unreasonable to suggest that the death penalty would not prevent even one murder because someone thought better given they would die as a result. It is completely within the spectrum of possibilities and if it was possible to know that it was your daughter that was saved, Hugh... you would be grateful for the death penalty. Impossible to tell who may have been spared or were spared as a result of the impending death sentence attached to a potential crime, we'll just have to feel good for whoever it may have served or would serve.
I will admit that portions of my argument have its flaws in that it requires some of the current judicial policies to change, but have yet to, and may never:
-I don't believe a serial murderer should be put in a cell with ANYONE, much less someone else of much lesser "crime stature", if you will. Solitary confinement? No. But a cellmate? Also no.
-I don't believe anyone who commits a premeditated murder deserves freedom. EVER. I don't give a flying fuck if they've reformed or found Jesus, Waldo, or pray to Gumby. You're DONE.
Look, I can't morally back the death penalty. But I can't say I wouldn't watch a real live version of The Running Man if it were to ever be developed by Fox. And it better have Richard Dawson as the host.
I'd be okay with those conditions- they are a hell of a lot better than what he currently have in place- but the main reason I advocate for the death penalty, once again, is to offer the victims and their survivors a level of justice that meets the crime.
My buddy and I have had this go around several times. He is opposed to the death penalty. His suggestion is to drop murderers off on an island like the Ray Liotta movie, No Escape. I'd be okay with this suggestion as well. Let the murderers sort it out amongst themselves.
Yeah, I could get behind the island idea, assuming it's surrounded by some kind of security (motion detection drones?) so that they can't fashion a raft and escape. :P
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
You have called me an idiot, medieval, delusional and a megalomaniac.
No I didn't. I said that the type of thinking you've exhibited towards this particular issue is ironically the same mindset that inspires those same people you're condemning. Not quite the same thing.
30 years of 3 square meals, internet privileges, sex dolls, magazines, books, physical activity, outstanding health care, fan mail, and someone doing your laundry for you somehow doesn't seem like justice for the rape, murder, and mutilation of an 8 year old girl. 30 Bills, 2013
Jail is just paradise, right? The person who wrote that is clearly an idiot.
My mistake. I didn't realize he'd quoted himself.
Though my point still stands. Is jail as attractive and cozy as he'd like us to believe? Does he place so little value on freedom that he thinks 30 or 40 years behind bars is a picnic? Is being subjected to daily abuse, violence, confinement to a small room, no privacy, constant monitoring, no freedom of movement, e.t.c, just a walk in the park?
Funny, but every account of life inside a U.S jail that I've read sounds nothing like what he describes. Sounds to me like he's confusing life in U.S jails with life in a Holiday Inn.
Though my point still stands. Is jail as attractive and cozy as he'd like us to believe? Does he place so little value on freedom that he thinks 30 or 40 years behind bars is a picnic? Is being subjected to daily abuse, violence, confinement to a small room, no privacy, constant monitoring, no freedom of movement, e.t.c, just a walk in the park?
Funny, but every account of life inside a U.S jail that I've read sounds nothing like what he describes. Sounds to me like he's confusing life in U.S jails with life in a Holiday Inn.
obviously, I agree with you. there are many out there that think it's reality that people in jail get lobster tails for Friday dinner. it's fallacy, and couldn't be further from the truth.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Well... you two seem to wish to describe prison conditions as the worst possible thing a human might endure. I'm not saying prisons are a treat, but there has to be some level of unpleasantness to them doesn't there? I've detailed Clifford Olson's decent ride in prison. Here's another one:
First... know that an open prison (open jail) is an informal description applied to any penal establishment in which the prisoners are trusted to serve their sentences with minimal supervision and perimeter security and so do not need to be locked up in prison cells. Prisoners may be permitted to take up employment in the community, returning to the prison. (Wiki definition)
Not exactly 'Hell on Earth'.
The case in point: A man who killed three children he was babysitting and impaled them on garden railings has had his anonymity lifted.
David McGreavy, 62, was jailed for life in 1973 for the murders of four-year-old Paul Ralph and his sisters Dawn, two, and nine-month-old Samantha.
He killed them at their home in Gillam Street, Worcester, in April 1973.
In 2009 a judge imposed a ban on naming him during a hearing to protect him from other prisoners. The High Court has now overturned the ban.
In January, McGreavy made a request to be moved to an open prison and his lawyers had argued that would put his name back in the spotlight and his life at risk.
Justice Secretary Chris Grayling and media organisations argued the application was legally flawed and wrongly prevented the public from knowing the full facts of the case.
McGreavy was lodging with the family at the house in Gillam Street when he carried out the killings.
‘Monster of Worcester’
Paul had been strangled, Dawn was found with her throat cut, and Samantha died from a compound fracture to the skull.
The killings earned McGreavy the nickname the “Monster of Worcester”.
The anonymity ruling was made in 2009 during a hearing when McGreavy unsuccessfully challenged a ruling that he must remain in Category C prison conditions.
On Wednesday, Guy Vassall-Adams, representing the justice secretary and the media organisations objecting to the ban on naming McGreavy, told the court: “The full facts are exceptionally horrific by even the standard of
“The order restricted the media to saying they were ‘three sadistic murders’ but that doesn’t even give you the half of it.”
Lord Justice Pitchford, sitting in London with Mr Justice Simon, ruled the anonymity order must be discharged.
The High Court heard David McGreavy had been in prison for 40 years, during which time he had been seriously assaulted in 1975 and 1996 by fellow prisoners.
His counsel Quincy Whitaker told the court naming him would put him in more danger from other prison inmates.
Ms Whitaker told the court McGreavy had previously spent two years in an open prison until “hostile media coverage” led to him being returned to closed conditions “for his own safety”.
The court heard McGreavy was first transferred to category D open conditions in 1994 but the transfer to Leyhill Prison in south Gloucestershire broke down after other inmates learned of his offence.
Ms Whitaker said the triple killings were “notorious” but no concerns had been subsequently raised about his behaviour.
Name change possibleThere were “more than reasonable grounds” for a fair parole hearing that could mean him being returned to open conditions, which was a pre-requisite for release from custody, she said.
The judge held out the possibility that in future McGreavy could be allowed a change of name to protect him.
He said McGreavy’s ninth parole review was under way and a hearing could be held later this year.
Since 2007 McGreavy has made a number of failed bids to win parole, the court heard.
The Worcester MP at that time, Mike Foster, called for McGreavy to never be allowed back to the city and described the murders as an “absolutely vile crime”.
McGreavy is currently living in closed conditions in a vulnerable prisoners’ unit
David McGreavy
•April 1973 – Murders Paul, Dawn and Samantha Ralph
•Jailed for life later that year
•1994 – Transferred to open prison (category D) then back to closed prison conditions (Category C)
•2007 – One of a number of bids for parole refused
•2009 – Told he must remain in under closed prison conditions and anonymity order granted
•May 2013 – Anonymity order lifted with ninth parole review underway
Yah... Dave spent some time in an 'open prison.' Now that is some serious justice! I mean... he only butchered three young children and then impaled them on garden railings.
Further... The counter argument to the DP says that nobody has the right to decide the fate of others... yet there is a common practice to 'protect' those that have been convicted of committing the types of offences that demand the DP from many. Not only is it such that the side opposed to the DP seeks to refrain from seeking the type of justice that the majority wants... the same side goes out of its way to isolate and protect child murderers from other inmates- in effect... playing God (something they say nobody has the right to do).
Sorry, but the pendulum is too far the other way. We go way too far protecting scumbags that, quite frankly, deserve much less. I guess some people feel good about this- but I don't. I think it stinks.
Well... you two seem to wish to describe prison conditions as the worst possible thing a human might endure. I'm not saying prisons are a treat, but there has to be some level of unpleasantness to them doesn't there?
no one ever said they were the worst possible thing a human can endure. again, with the dramatics.
oy.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
keeping inmates away from other inmates for the safety of all involved (prison staff included) is not playing god. playing god is taking away someone's life. are you seriously going to argue that protecting someone's life is playing god?
seriously?
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
keeping inmates away from other inmates for the safety of all involved (prison staff included) is not playing god. playing god is taking away someone's life. are you seriously going to argue that protecting someone's life is playing god?
seriously?
We are making some serious interventions at two different levels to preserve the life of someone who many want dead. In effect, this amounts to playing 'something'. You call levelling justice that amounts to executing someone 'playing god'... why can't the inverse be true as well?
Well... you two seem to wish to describe prison conditions as the worst possible thing a human might endure. I'm not saying prisons are a treat, but there has to be some level of unpleasantness to them doesn't there?
no one ever said they were the worst possible thing a human can endure. again, with the dramatics.
oy.
Okay. And dreaming of medieval times when people were drawn and quartered isn't dramatic? Or rhetorically asking if one knows that a jail isn't a country club isn't dramatic?
Geez, man. How can one make a case when one side of the issue so readily employs tactics when it works for them, yet so easily dismisses them when confronted with them?
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Especially the likes of Bernardo, the good colonel who humiliated their victims while recording it ... should have just walked them out the back of the court house and ended it. How 'bout the lovely Clifford Olson who continued to torment society while in prison and who got paid a sum of money for info ... really ... he should have been given 2 choices, give us the info and we'll be quick, if no info then it'll be slow and very painful.
Taking out some of these heinous criminals does not even come close to putting us on the same level ... these are monsters who caused great harm and in some cases great humiliation.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
If it is sped up, the likelihood of killing innocent people increases.
Jail is just paradise, right? The person who wrote that is clearly an idiot.
You'd rather just fast-track them into the death chamber, would you? Including those wrongfully convicted in the first place.
Exactly
I believe in the death penalty, but it needs reform because too many are wrongly killed. They need 100% proof they did what they did in order to give one the death penalty.
You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense
Not near the level of the idiot that once said the plight of the murderer on death row is far worse than that of two young girls who, after watching their family get slain, were held captive in bondage, raped and then killed. Remember you said because at least they might have been able to think of escaping?
Clifford Olson's prison term was paradise.
The two misunderstood pieces of shit that killed the petit women were caught fleeing from the house and high fiving each other after raping and killing them. They also confessed. One wants to be executed because he is so full of shame. The surviving family member wants them dead. The courts have sentenced them to death.
Why the wait?
There is no question of guilt here just as there is no question that the very nature of the crime is beyond any level of forgiveness.
Once again, you're embarrassing yourself [though you clearly don't even realize it] by calling Albert Camus an idiot.
Here's what he said:
'It adds to death a rule, a public premeditation known to the future victim, an organization, in short, which is in itself a source of moral sufferings more terrible than death. Hence there is no equivalence. Many laws consider a premeditated crime more serious than a crime of pure violence. But what then is capital punishment but the most premeditated of murders, to which no criminal's deed, however calculated it may be, can be compared?
For there to be equivalence, the death penalty would have to punish a criminal who had warned his victim of the date at which he would inflict a horrible death on him and who, from that moment onward, had confined him to his mercy for months. Such a monster is not encountered in private life.'
Once again, you claim to be 'God'. Not only do you think you have the right to decide who lives or dies, but you even think you can decide who deserves, or doesn't deserve, forgiveness.
Kind of ironic that it's just this type of megalomania, self-aggrandizement, and rigidity of thought, that produces serial killers, mass murderers, and dictators.
Do you ever fantasize about life in the Middle Ages, where your Weekends entertainment could consist of seeing people hung, drawn and quartered and fed to the pigs? Or maybe Saudi Arabia, where thieves get their hands chopped off, and adulterers are beheaded in the local football stadiums?
It's just that, it seems you have a pretty unhealthy hard-on for people being murdered by the State in the name of 'justice'.
you cannot be serious?
those comments were expressed about a really really disturbingly nasty pair of people, one of whom has asked to be executed. He doesn't even ask for forgiveness, and certainly does not deserve any.
I will repeat again, I am anti DP, but the logic on that case along is tough to disagree with strongly.
as although im anti DP, if those bastards had done that to any of the people I love I know for a fact I could never forgive them. Im a peaceful person by my very nature, compassionate and caring, and that is exactly why I find it impossible to comprehend such brutality.
He could produce 100 or 1000 gruesome cases of murders on here in order to try and gain support for the death penalty, but it makes zero difference to me. Do you really think that by posting details of a twisted murder that this then gives him the right to declare who should live or die, or who is, or isn't, deserving of forgiveness? I just hope that I never suffer such delusions of grandeur.
Like I asked before in this thread; isn't the test of any society, and it's moral foundation [if it has one, or pretends to have one], to exist on a higher footing than that of murderers, and rapists? Or should society allow itself to indulge in feelings of vengeance ("the needs of the victims families") and to sink to the level of those it condemns by murdering them in turn, in a premeditated, and calculated manner?
Someone in the Edward Snowden thread jumped up on his high horse and started frothing at the mouth about the fact I live in China, claiming that therefore I had no right to criticize the U.S government. (The same juvenile, pathetic response I've come to expect from certain flag-suckers). But what I wonder is: what's the difference? Both countries lie to, spy on, and murder their own citizens on a daily basis. As long as the U.S continues with the death penalty, then what makes it so different from China, or Iran? The Iranians murder their own citizens in the name of Islam (or a perverted idea of Islam). The Chinese murder their own citizens on the name of 'Communism', or State Power. And Americans murder their own citizens in the name of what? Christianity? The State? Justice?
As far as I'm concerned, the U.S is no better than any of these other countries as long as it continues murdering it's undesirables. These rapists and murderers didn't grow up in a vacuum. They are a product of their environment. Maybe the State should take some degree of responsibility for that before so confidently and self-righteously snuffing out their lives in turn.
You said a murderer on death row had it worse than the two young girls held captive that were raped and murdered.
Even Camus' eagerness to treat vile child murderers better than our homeless people... he likely isn't that far out of his mind.
and he was paraphrasing Camus.
maybe we've been on this merry go round too long, so maybe I've asked you this before, but have you ever investigated the conditions of being behind bars in max security? You do realize that jail is not exactly a country club, right?
I'd rather be homeless. No question about it.
Fargo 2003
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You have called me an idiot, medieval, delusional and a megalomaniac.
If I did something other than challenge your viewpoint in as respectful manner as possible, I apologize. If this is just obnoxious Internet behaviour... well... you know what you can do.
I know he was paraphrasing Camus. He extended the argument and made a ludicrous statement. You yourself even challenged him on it. Remember?
Prison was and is too good for some people. I'm done.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
well said ...
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
No I didn't. I said, and quoted Camus to support my statement, that 10 or twenty years of knowing the exact date of your execution is a type of mental torture that exceeds any heat-of-the moment murder, in which escape is always a possibility.
Except he did nothing of the sort.
No I didn't. I said that the type of thinking you've exhibited towards this particular issue is ironically the same mindset that inspires those same people you're condemning. Not quite the same thing.
yes, you did, actually:
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My mistake. I didn't realize he'd quoted himself.
Though my point still stands. Is jail as attractive and cozy as he'd like us to believe? Does he place so little value on freedom that he thinks 30 or 40 years behind bars is a picnic? Is being subjected to daily abuse, violence, confinement to a small room, no privacy, constant monitoring, no freedom of movement, e.t.c, just a walk in the park?
Funny, but every account of life inside a U.S jail that I've read sounds nothing like what he describes. Sounds to me like he's confusing life in U.S jails with life in a Holiday Inn.
obviously, I agree with you. there are many out there that think it's reality that people in jail get lobster tails for Friday dinner. it's fallacy, and couldn't be further from the truth.
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First... know that an open prison (open jail) is an informal description applied to any penal establishment in which the prisoners are trusted to serve their sentences with minimal supervision and perimeter security and so do not need to be locked up in prison cells. Prisoners may be permitted to take up employment in the community, returning to the prison. (Wiki definition)
Not exactly 'Hell on Earth'.
The case in point:
A man who killed three children he was babysitting and impaled them on garden railings has had his anonymity lifted.
David McGreavy, 62, was jailed for life in 1973 for the murders of four-year-old Paul Ralph and his sisters Dawn, two, and nine-month-old Samantha.
He killed them at their home in Gillam Street, Worcester, in April 1973.
In 2009 a judge imposed a ban on naming him during a hearing to protect him from other prisoners. The High Court has now overturned the ban.
In January, McGreavy made a request to be moved to an open prison and his lawyers had argued that would put his name back in the spotlight and his life at risk.
Justice Secretary Chris Grayling and media organisations argued the application was legally flawed and wrongly prevented the public from knowing the full facts of the case.
McGreavy was lodging with the family at the house in Gillam Street when he carried out the killings.
‘Monster of Worcester’
Paul had been strangled, Dawn was found with her throat cut, and Samantha died from a compound fracture to the skull.
The killings earned McGreavy the nickname the “Monster of Worcester”.
The anonymity ruling was made in 2009 during a hearing when McGreavy unsuccessfully challenged a ruling that he must remain in Category C prison conditions.
On Wednesday, Guy Vassall-Adams, representing the justice secretary and the media organisations objecting to the ban on naming McGreavy, told the court: “The full facts are exceptionally horrific by even the standard of
“The order restricted the media to saying they were ‘three sadistic murders’ but that doesn’t even give you the half of it.”
Lord Justice Pitchford, sitting in London with Mr Justice Simon, ruled the anonymity order must be discharged.
The High Court heard David McGreavy had been in prison for 40 years, during which time he had been seriously assaulted in 1975 and 1996 by fellow prisoners.
His counsel Quincy Whitaker told the court naming him would put him in more danger from other prison inmates.
Ms Whitaker told the court McGreavy had previously spent two years in an open prison until “hostile media coverage” led to him being returned to closed conditions “for his own safety”.
The court heard McGreavy was first transferred to category D open conditions in 1994 but the transfer to Leyhill Prison in south Gloucestershire broke down after other inmates learned of his offence.
Ms Whitaker said the triple killings were “notorious” but no concerns had been subsequently raised about his behaviour.
Name change possibleThere were “more than reasonable grounds” for a fair parole hearing that could mean him being returned to open conditions, which was a pre-requisite for release from custody, she said.
The judge held out the possibility that in future McGreavy could be allowed a change of name to protect him.
He said McGreavy’s ninth parole review was under way and a hearing could be held later this year.
Since 2007 McGreavy has made a number of failed bids to win parole, the court heard.
The Worcester MP at that time, Mike Foster, called for McGreavy to never be allowed back to the city and described the murders as an “absolutely vile crime”.
McGreavy is currently living in closed conditions in a vulnerable prisoners’ unit
David McGreavy
•April 1973 – Murders Paul, Dawn and Samantha Ralph
•Jailed for life later that year
•1994 – Transferred to open prison (category D) then back to closed prison conditions (Category C)
•2007 – One of a number of bids for parole refused
•2009 – Told he must remain in under closed prison conditions and anonymity order granted
•May 2013 – Anonymity order lifted with ninth parole review underway
Yah... Dave spent some time in an 'open prison.' Now that is some serious justice! I mean... he only butchered three young children and then impaled them on garden railings.
Source: http://converseprisonnews.com/category/open-prisons/
Further... The counter argument to the DP says that nobody has the right to decide the fate of others... yet there is a common practice to 'protect' those that have been convicted of committing the types of offences that demand the DP from many. Not only is it such that the side opposed to the DP seeks to refrain from seeking the type of justice that the majority wants... the same side goes out of its way to isolate and protect child murderers from other inmates- in effect... playing God (something they say nobody has the right to do).
Sorry, but the pendulum is too far the other way. We go way too far protecting scumbags that, quite frankly, deserve much less. I guess some people feel good about this- but I don't. I think it stinks.
no one ever said they were the worst possible thing a human can endure. again, with the dramatics.
oy.
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seriously?
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We are making some serious interventions at two different levels to preserve the life of someone who many want dead. In effect, this amounts to playing 'something'. You call levelling justice that amounts to executing someone 'playing god'... why can't the inverse be true as well?
Okay. And dreaming of medieval times when people were drawn and quartered isn't dramatic? Or rhetorically asking if one knows that a jail isn't a country club isn't dramatic?
Geez, man. How can one make a case when one side of the issue so readily employs tactics when it works for them, yet so easily dismisses them when confronted with them?