Hey, I understand you are a good person. Don't confuse me for not being a good person either. I'm strongly against war and torture as well.
But I am against cold-blooded, heartless murder. And I love our children. I feel our actions reflect our attitudes and when we sentence the murderers of our children to jail where they do all those fun things that their dismembered victims buried in the dirt can't... it displays a level of tolerance that I do not wish for.
I could compromise. If you don't have the stomach for executing people such as Steve Smith, who raped (killing in the process) a 6 month old child... then I could settle on a small, square, grey, brick cell with a hole in the floor, 2 sparse meals a day, and one book that cannot be exchanged.
Deal?
hey ... i hope you don't think that i am implying that those that support capital punishment are bad people in any way ... it's not my intent ... just simply why i don't believe in it ...
and it's not so much the stomach for it as again - i simply believe it is not the actions of a society that i strive to be part of ...
at the end of the day - we all want the same thing ... we don't want to see children raped or innocent people murdered ... how do we get there that doesn't compromise who we are as people!? ...
my aim here is not to convince people who have a different value system or morality on the subject ... i believe i stated right at the beginning that this debate is similar to abortion ... rarely do people switch and the motivation that drives people to their beliefs vary ...
so, although i respect and commend you on your compromise - your form of justice would be torture in my eyes and I couldn't in good faith agree to it ...
Should we respond at all? Where exactly should the line be? Some contend that imprisonment in any capacity as torture. Does your line trump theirs as well? Should we all continue to move along the spectrum until the most 'lenient' (for lack of better word) is satisfied? Or should we move to the other end of the spectrum where everyone convicted of any murder- regardless of the very nature of it that I suggest needs to be considered- is sentenced to death?
It seems that in order for us to agree... perhaps I would have to settle on ping pong, sex dolls, internet, books, marriages and hot meals for Steve Smith then. No thanks. Justice was served- he was executed. It's too bad he felt the need to rape and kill an infant, but he's where he needs to be given what he did.
Should we respond at all? Where exactly should the line be? Some contend that imprisonment in any capacity as torture. Does your line trump theirs as well? Should we all continue to move along the spectrum until the most 'lenient' (for lack of better word) is satisfied? Or should we move to the other end of the spectrum where everyone convicted of any murder- regardless of the very nature of it that I suggest needs to be considered- is sentenced to death?
It seems that in order for us to agree... perhaps I would have to settle on ping pong, sex dolls, internet, books, marriages and hot meals for Steve Smith then. No thanks. Justice was served- he was executed. It's too bad he felt the need to rape and kill an infant, but he's where he needs to be given what he did.
i don't dictate the line ... society should ... if you want to know where my line is ... it would not be where yours is ...
i'm not sure what the second part is coming from ... again - i don't anticipate us agreeing ... i don't think too many people will change their mind on this like i said for the reasons i've stated ... my goal was simply to express my position and why it is what it is ...
We can revise and improve our system all we want but there wil always be inocent people put to death.....period..there is no grey area in this...SOOOOO are you okay with a few innocents being put to death? Yes or No?
You need to follow a little more closely. I've already said 'no'.
But I am okay with the Cheshire goofballs receiving the due fate. They are guilty- there is no doubt about it. Dr. Petit used to feel the same as you- likely engaging in a debate or two as well defending society's need to 'rise above the criminal'... but his perspective changed that brutal day.
If you are honest with yourself... your perspective would change too. Why must a crime directly affect you before you see the alternative position?
Remember... nobody wants these crimes to occur- they happen though. We are forced to respond. Your measure of response is different than mine, but it doesn't make one better than the other: they are just responses to something we both do not wish to be forced to respond to.
So....as inocent people are going to be killed...and we can't be 100% sure to avoid another innocent person from being put to death we should get rid of DP....so you are against the death penalty.
Look, with all due respect in the event you are 10 years old, you are getting in the way of a good conversation (not to mention the fact that you are buggering up the quote feature attributing things said to the wrong people). If you make another post attempting to make me play the fool... I'll tell you where to go in very certain terms and a great thread will be locked.
We are 100% sure that the Cheshire murderers committed their crime. Remember they were found running from the house, high fiving each other after raping and lighting the Petit women on fire? Remember Dr. Petit survived his ordeal and confirmed the savagery that occurred inside the home? The criminals also pled guilty (how could they not?).
The mountain of evidence establishing their guilt combined with the extreme variety of their offence more than qualifies them for death and they need to go.
Should we respond at all? Where exactly should the line be? Some contend that imprisonment in any capacity as torture. Does your line trump theirs as well? Should we all continue to move along the spectrum until the most 'lenient' (for lack of better word) is satisfied? Or should we move to the other end of the spectrum where everyone convicted of any murder- regardless of the very nature of it that I suggest needs to be considered- is sentenced to death?
It seems that in order for us to agree... perhaps I would have to settle on ping pong, sex dolls, internet, books, marriages and hot meals for Steve Smith then. No thanks. Justice was served- he was executed. It's too bad he felt the need to rape and kill an infant, but he's where he needs to be given what he did.
i don't dictate the line ... society should ... if you want to know where my line is ... it would not be where yours is ...
i'm not sure what the second part is coming from ... again - i don't anticipate us agreeing ... i don't think too many people will change their mind on this like i said for the reasons i've stated ... my goal was simply to express my position and why it is what it is ...
:roll: Why ya gotta be that way?
The two wrongs don't make a right philosophy when talking about capital punishment is a pretty developed idea, and most of those who oppose it outright hold that philosophy dear as a significant part of their opposition. Just because there is a pithy way of saying it doesn't mean its meaning is insignificant.
I go that way sometimes. Sorry.
I respect the message- I didn't care much for the delivery.
makes no sense to me keeping the good paul bernardo breathing or the good colonel ... hell if we'd just taken care of bernardo he wouldn't be here to bitch about being moved to Quebec ... hell those 3 from Oklahoma are a waste of skin and are using good resources (called air).
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=216483
example of monster like behavior:
gouging out the boy's eyes for the corneas & the likelihood of selling them on the organ harvesting black market in china. this is out of order. i guess a woman done this vile act. whoever done this despicable act & those involved in harvesting organs (if caught) are up to their eyebrows in deep shit; i don't think china plays games.
Except that we shouldn't let our government kill its own citizens. Ever. Or use murder to punish murder. Makes no fucking sense.
PS - why is everyone completely ignoring me in this thread? Kind of strange.... I don't think I'm being an idiot or anything, so...
It makes perfect sense: let the punishment fit the crime. Why would we sentence serial murderers the same as we sentence drug smugglers?
In Canada, pedophiles get less time than drug dealers. :fp:
Ridiculous.
Oh, well please don't get me started on prison terms in Canada! But that is a whole other issue.
I think it makes no sense because punishing murder by committing murder puts the punisher on the same level as the punished. It sends a VERY bad message, and is morally inept.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
makes no sense to me keeping the good paul bernardo breathing or the good colonel ... hell if we'd just taken care of bernardo he wouldn't be here to bitch about being moved to Quebec ... hell those 3 from Oklahoma are a waste of skin and are using good resources (called air).
Don't forget Poor little Tori Stafford and her murderer, Michael Rafferty- a real champ.
It's not enough that we house and feed them, but we also go to great lengths to ensure we give them their day in court and then some.
I think it makes no sense because punishing murder by committing murder puts the punisher on the same level as the punished. It sends a VERY bad message, and is morally inept.
So what do we do with kidnappers who imprison their victims in basements or cages? Do we not lock them up? Of course we do, and no one would reasonably argue that the government was on the same level as the kidnapper.
http://community.pearljam.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=216483
example of monster like behavior:
gouging out the boy's eyes for the corneas & the likelihood of selling them on the organ harvesting black market in china. this is out of order. i guess a woman done this vile act. whoever done this despicable act & those involved in harvesting organs (if caught) are up to their eyebrows in deep shit; i don't think china plays games.
I think it makes no sense because punishing murder by committing murder puts the punisher on the same level as the punished. It sends a VERY bad message, and is morally inept.
So what do we do with kidnappers who imprison their victims in basements or cages? Do we not lock them up? Of course we do, and no one would reasonably argue that the government was on the same level as the kidnapper.
I think it makes no sense because punishing murder by committing murder puts the punisher on the same level as the punished. It sends a VERY bad message, and is morally inept.
So what do we do with kidnappers who imprison their victims in basements or cages? Do we not lock them up? Of course we do, and no one would reasonably argue that the government was on the same level as the kidnapper.
All things are not always equal (I know you realize that).
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I think it makes no sense because punishing murder by committing murder puts the punisher on the same level as the punished. It sends a VERY bad message, and is morally inept.
So what do we do with kidnappers who imprison their victims in basements or cages? Do we not lock them up? Of course we do, and no one would reasonably argue that the government was on the same level as the kidnapper.
A strong point.
Really? I thought it was incredibly weak.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Very strong as a counter to what you said. You cannot have an argument one way when it works for both sides.
Totally disagree. Are you guys actually serious?? You think that comparing jailing people for kidnapping and murdering people for murdering as equal issues is reasonable when talking about a modern justice system? Gimme a break.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
makes no sense to me keeping the good paul bernardo breathing or the good colonel ... hell if we'd just taken care of bernardo he wouldn't be here to bitch about being moved to Quebec ... hell those 3 from Oklahoma are a waste of skin and are using good resources (called air).
Don't forget Poor little Tori Stafford and her murderer, Michael Rafferty- a real champ.
It's not enough that we house and feed them, but we also go to great lengths to ensure we give them their day in court and then some.
Very strong as a counter to what you said. You cannot have an argument one way when it works for both sides.
Totally disagree. Are you guys actually serious?? You think that comparing jailing people for kidnapping and murdering people for murdering as equal issues is reasonable when talking about a modern justice system? Gimme a break.
You said (I'm paraphrasing) that executing a murderer places society on the same level as the murderer. He said (paraphrasing again) then why is it acceptable to imprison a kidnapper when it places society on the same level.
We weren't comparing kidnapping to murder at all. We were speaking to the point you made.
Very strong as a counter to what you said. You cannot have an argument one way when it works for both sides.
Totally disagree. Are you guys actually serious?? You think that comparing jailing people for kidnapping and murdering people for murdering as equal issues is reasonable when talking about a modern justice system? Gimme a break.
You said (I'm paraphrasing) that executing a murderer places society on the same level as the murderer. He said (paraphrasing again) then why is it acceptable to imprison a kidnapper when it places society on the same level.
We weren't comparing kidnapping to murder at all. We were speaking to the point you made.
I do understand what's going on here, but thanks. As I said, all things are not equal. That's why one is acceptable and one is not, and what is annoying is that both of you know this but are acting like it's a valid argument.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I think it makes no sense because punishing murder by committing murder puts the punisher on the same level as the punished. It sends a VERY bad message, and is morally inept.
So what do we do with kidnappers who imprison their victims in basements or cages? Do we not lock them up? Of course we do, and no one would reasonably argue that the government was on the same level as the kidnapper.
All things are not always equal (I know you realize that).
They are not always equal, I absolutely agree. This is why I believe that trying, convicting, sentencing, hearing all appeals, and then finally executing someone who murders a child does not put the government on the same level as the murderer.
Very strong as a counter to what you said. You cannot have an argument one way when it works for both sides.
Totally disagree. Are you guys actually serious?? You think that comparing jailing people for kidnapping and murdering people for murdering as equal issues is reasonable when talking about a modern justice system? Gimme a break.
You said (I'm paraphrasing) that executing a murderer places society on the same level as the murderer. He said (paraphrasing again) then why is it acceptable to imprison a kidnapper when it places society on the same level.
We weren't comparing kidnapping to murder at all. We were speaking to the point you made.
One major difference between these two types of convictions is that if a mistake is made in finding a person guilty, one can be reversed and one cannot. Big difference, I think. Its an interesting point, but not comparable really.
Very strong as a counter to what you said. You cannot have an argument one way when it works for both sides.
Totally disagree. Are you guys actually serious?? You think that comparing jailing people for kidnapping and murdering people for murdering as equal issues is reasonable when talking about a modern justice system? Gimme a break.
You said (I'm paraphrasing) that executing a murderer places society on the same level as the murderer. He said (paraphrasing again) then why is it acceptable to imprison a kidnapper when it places society on the same level.
We weren't comparing kidnapping to murder at all. We were speaking to the point you made.
If your referring to that POS in Ohio ... he's also using up a nice resource air ... he doesn't want to die thats why he accepted the plea ... once that state knew that they should have took him down hard ... really kidnapping 3 people and putting him through what he did deserve something more than a just a jail cell.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
So what do we do with kidnappers who imprison their victims in basements or cages? Do we not lock them up? Of course we do, and no one would reasonably argue that the government was on the same level as the kidnapper.
All things are not always equal (I know you realize that).
They are not always equal, I absolutely agree. This is why I believe that trying, convicting, sentencing, hearing all appeals, and then finally executing someone who murders a child does not put the government on the same level as the murderer.
Ah, well that's where I disagree. Murder is murder. Killing another human being is wrong unless it's in self-defense. Period.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Very strong as a counter to what you said. You cannot have an argument one way when it works for both sides.
Totally disagree. Are you guys actually serious?? You think that comparing jailing people for kidnapping and murdering people for murdering as equal issues is reasonable when talking about a modern justice system? Gimme a break.
You said (I'm paraphrasing) that executing a murderer places society on the same level as the murderer. He said (paraphrasing again) then why is it acceptable to imprison a kidnapper when it places society on the same level.
We weren't comparing kidnapping to murder at all. We were speaking to the point you made.
If we kill and are wrong...you can't bring them back...if they are imprisoned for life without possiblility of parole than we can let them go free. Or if a government wants to silence...and create a solid case..once those in power are removed maybe they can also be freed. Imprisonment to protect the public is rational...killing them is not. Big difference.
Totally disagree. Are you guys actually serious?? You think that comparing jailing people for kidnapping and murdering people for murdering as equal issues is reasonable when talking about a modern justice system? Gimme a break.
You said (I'm paraphrasing) that executing a murderer places society on the same level as the murderer. He said (paraphrasing again) then why is it acceptable to imprison a kidnapper when it places society on the same level.
We weren't comparing kidnapping to murder at all. We were speaking to the point you made.
If your referring to that POS in Ohio ... he's also using up a nice resource air ... he doesn't want to die thats why he accepted the plea ... once that state knew that they should have took him down hard ... really kidnapping 3 people and putting him through what he did deserve something more than a just a jail cell.
Again I disagree. I think it's pretty fucking easy to be dead. Living in prison forever is way harder.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Comments
Should we respond at all? Where exactly should the line be? Some contend that imprisonment in any capacity as torture. Does your line trump theirs as well? Should we all continue to move along the spectrum until the most 'lenient' (for lack of better word) is satisfied? Or should we move to the other end of the spectrum where everyone convicted of any murder- regardless of the very nature of it that I suggest needs to be considered- is sentenced to death?
It seems that in order for us to agree... perhaps I would have to settle on ping pong, sex dolls, internet, books, marriages and hot meals for Steve Smith then. No thanks. Justice was served- he was executed. It's too bad he felt the need to rape and kill an infant, but he's where he needs to be given what he did.
i don't dictate the line ... society should ... if you want to know where my line is ... it would not be where yours is ...
i'm not sure what the second part is coming from ... again - i don't anticipate us agreeing ... i don't think too many people will change their mind on this like i said for the reasons i've stated ... my goal was simply to express my position and why it is what it is ...
Look, with all due respect in the event you are 10 years old, you are getting in the way of a good conversation (not to mention the fact that you are buggering up the quote feature attributing things said to the wrong people). If you make another post attempting to make me play the fool... I'll tell you where to go in very certain terms and a great thread will be locked.
We are 100% sure that the Cheshire murderers committed their crime. Remember they were found running from the house, high fiving each other after raping and lighting the Petit women on fire? Remember Dr. Petit survived his ordeal and confirmed the savagery that occurred inside the home? The criminals also pled guilty (how could they not?).
The mountain of evidence establishing their guilt combined with the extreme variety of their offence more than qualifies them for death and they need to go.
Fair enough. Position respected.
PS - why is everyone completely ignoring me in this thread? Kind of strange.... I don't think I'm being an idiot or anything, so...
I go that way sometimes. Sorry.
I respect the message- I didn't care much for the delivery.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
example of monster like behavior:
gouging out the boy's eyes for the corneas & the likelihood of selling them on the organ harvesting black market in china. this is out of order. i guess a woman done this vile act. whoever done this despicable act & those involved in harvesting organs (if caught) are up to their eyebrows in deep shit; i don't think china plays games.
carry on
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
It makes perfect sense: let the punishment fit the crime. Why would we sentence serial murderers the same as we sentence drug smugglers?
In Canada, pedophiles get less time than drug dealers. :fp:
Ridiculous.
I think it makes no sense because punishing murder by committing murder puts the punisher on the same level as the punished. It sends a VERY bad message, and is morally inept.
I agree there ... but our justice system is ridiculous anyways.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
likewise
Don't forget Poor little Tori Stafford and her murderer, Michael Rafferty- a real champ.
It's not enough that we house and feed them, but we also go to great lengths to ensure we give them their day in court and then some.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/s ... rance.html
So what do we do with kidnappers who imprison their victims in basements or cages? Do we not lock them up? Of course we do, and no one would reasonably argue that the government was on the same level as the kidnapper.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
In this case... let's hope you are right.
A strong point.
Absolutely correct ... lets not forget Tori.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
You said (I'm paraphrasing) that executing a murderer places society on the same level as the murderer. He said (paraphrasing again) then why is it acceptable to imprison a kidnapper when it places society on the same level.
We weren't comparing kidnapping to murder at all. We were speaking to the point you made.
They are not always equal, I absolutely agree. This is why I believe that trying, convicting, sentencing, hearing all appeals, and then finally executing someone who murders a child does not put the government on the same level as the murderer.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
One major difference between these two types of convictions is that if a mistake is made in finding a person guilty, one can be reversed and one cannot. Big difference, I think. Its an interesting point, but not comparable really.
If your referring to that POS in Ohio ... he's also using up a nice resource air ... he doesn't want to die thats why he accepted the plea ... once that state knew that they should have took him down hard ... really kidnapping 3 people and putting him through what he did deserve something more than a just a jail cell.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
edit... some awesome things just can't be shared here. this is the 9th lengthy write up i've had to remove from today's sharing process :evil:
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce