The Death Penalty

Thirty Bills Unpaid

callen wrote:

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

An extreme case where death is appropriate in my mind.

How the hell does someone become so twisted?

I'm getting beat down with these damn stories.

Is Tool's Aenima about starting humanity over? Stories such as these validate such a notion.

I hear you and have had same feelings but if we kill we're doing the same thing, We have to rise above violence and killing, especially condoned by society?

One might look at it like we are rising above the violence. I tend to think of the death penalty as a reflection of our disdain for the crime. Some crimes are so extreme and offensive that the perpetrator deserves more than the person in the cell next to him who is doing time for a much less grievous offence. Not only that... I disagree with people that suggest the survivors are minor considerations when we pursue justice for the offences against them and their family. I think they are major considerations and, with exceptions, I would think most survivors want the murderer of their child... dead.

Byrnzie

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/5/7/mi ... ng_tonight

Mississippi to Execute Willie Manning Tonight After Rejecting DNA Tests & FBI’s Admission of Error

AMY GOODMAN: But in a five-to-four decision last month, Mississippi’s state Supreme Court refused to grant a new DNA test, citing what it called, quote, "conclusive, overwhelming evidence of guilt, unquote. The court’s majority sided with prosecutors’ argument that the DNA testing could not, quote, "preclude his participation in the crimes," unquote. But on top of the denied DNA tests, Manning’s attorneys say prosecutors relied on two key witnesses whose credibility has since come under question. Concerns have also been raised about alleged racial bias in the selection of the jury that found Manning guilty. One witness was a jailhouse informant who has since recanted.

Manning has long maintained his innocence. His attorneys have made a last-minute appeal to Mississippi Governor Phil Bryant. Barring action by Bryant or a court, Manning will be killed by lethal injection at 6:00 p.m. Eastern time tonight...

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Byrnzie wrote:

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/5/7/mississippi_to_execute_willie_manning_tonight

Mississippi to Execute Willie Manning Tonight After Rejecting DNA Tests & FBI’s Admission of Error

AMY GOODMAN: But in a five-to-four decision last month, Mississippi’s state Supreme Court refused to grant a new DNA test, citing what it called, quote, "conclusive, overwhelming evidence of guilt, unquote. The court’s majority sided with prosecutors’ argument that the DNA testing could not, quote, "preclude his participation in the crimes," unquote. But on top of the denied DNA tests, Manning’s attorneys say prosecutors relied on two key witnesses whose credibility has since come under question. Concerns have also been raised about alleged racial bias in the selection of the jury that found Manning guilty. One witness was a jailhouse informant who has since recanted.

Manning has long maintained his innocence. His attorneys have made a last-minute appeal to Mississippi Governor Phil Bryant. Barring action by Bryant or a court, Manning will be killed by lethal injection at 6:00 p.m. Eastern time tonight...

Granted a stay of execution.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/08/us/wi ... .html?_r=0

This isn't a clear cut case by any stretch of the imagination. There certainly seems to be some damning pieces of circumstantial evidence that rightfully raise suspicion, but more suspicious is the prosecution's resistance to administering DNA tests, the questionable testimonies and the rest of the 'house of cards' case.

Yeesh.

Byrnzie

Some interesting thoughts here:

http://www.democracynow.org/2012/9/21/t ... _execution

BENJAMIN JEALOUS (NAACP President):Where we go from here is we do exactly what Kim said Troy wanted us to do: we push forward, and we end this death penalty, because we know that Troy Davis was not the first person who had not killed anybody to be put to death in this country, and he won’t be the last. And we—right now it’s on the ballot in California. We’re somewhat optimistic that we can pass Proposition 34 there. We’d ask folks to vote for that, if they are in California. And then on to states like Ohio and to Maryland, where it will be debated next year, and we hope to repeat the sort of victory we saw in Connecticut this year.

You know, when folks take a hard look at this punishment—and that’s what this case has really forced the country to do—again, they tend to run into the fact that our country has killed innocents before, and we will do it again. They also tend to run into the fact that, no matter how they feel about the death penalty as a theory, that practically every time a prosecutor seeks the death penalty, they pull hundreds of thousands of dollars out of our local criminal justice system, dollars that therefore cannot be spent, say, on the homicide unit and getting uncaught killers off the street. And given that we have counties in this country where 50 percent of the killings can go unsolved each year, we are much better off spending our dollars on catching uncaught killers than killing the killers we’ve already caught and put in cages. And so, our hope, our prayer, is that the country will continue to take a hard look at the death penalty and realize this is the moral thing to do and it’s also the thing that will make us safer. Abolishing the death penalty will put our country in line with the rest of Western democracies, but it will also make it safer because we can spend those resources on catching uncaught killers.

...LAURA MOYE (Amnesty International USA): Well, in the last five years, five states have ended the death penalty, with Connecticut being the most recent. As Mr. Jealous has pointed out, 800,000 people in California signed petitions to put the death penalty on their ballot, and they have an opportunity to vote for Proposition 34 in November. That would replace the death penalty with life without parole and set up a fund to help solve all these unsolved homicides and rapes. The governor of Oregon declared a moratorium and said, while he is in office, he will not allow a single person to be executed, because of his discomfort with this very broken system. The number of death sentences and executions are at an all-time low.

The week after Troy Davis was executed, the Gallup poll measuring support for the death penalty in the United States was at a 40-year low. We are in a different era than we were 10, 20 years ago with this issue. We’re seeing tremendous progress, because people are coming to understand the reality of the death penalty, the ugly reality of the death penalty, how it doesn’t deter crime; it costs far more than incarceration; it is a distraction from effective means of dealing with crime; it is riddled with bias, racial and economic bias. And the list goes on.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Byrnzie...

The thoughts expressed in the previous post are very reasonable. If the argument against the death penalty centers on the fact that innocent people are being sentenced to death... then there isn't much of an argument from me. If things are fuzzy... we most cetainly need to proceed with caution.

Where things fall down for me is when the notion is presented that we cannot sentence a man to death on moral grounds. I'm inclined to think that if a crime is of the extreme and heinous nature (such as some of the examples I have presented throughout this thread) and the perpetrator has been established beyond any doubt at all (photographs, video, trophies, etc.)... it's more than a fair sentence.

Clifford Olson, Michael Rafferty, David Shearing and Robert Picton are but a few that have fared better than Troy Davis. These nice fellows have most certainly acted in such a way that society should comfortably rest knowing their execution was appropriate if an execution had been ordered.

With that said... if one was to appeal to me on the grounds that we cannot execute people when there might be a shadow of a doubt... I would be inclined to agree with them. An argument centered on erring on the side of caution doesn't inflate my sails as much as one suggesting we prove to be awesome showing mercy or compassion for scum that rape, murder and mutilate children. I'll never be down with this.

Byrnzie

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

Byrnzie...

The thoughts expressed in the previous post are very reasonable. If the argument against the death penalty centers on the fact that innocent people are being sentenced to death... then there isn't much of an argument from me. If things are fuzzy... we most cetainly need to proceed with caution.

Where things fall down for me is when the notion is presented that we cannot sentence a man to death on moral grounds. I'm inclined to think that if a crime is of the extreme and heinous nature (such as some of the examples I have presented throughout this thread) and the perpetrator has been established beyond any doubt at all (photographs, video, trophies, etc.)... it's more than a fair sentence.

Clifford Olson, Michael Rafferty, David Shearing and Robert Picton are but a few that have fared better than Troy Davis. These nice fellows have most certainly acted in such a way that society should comfortably rest knowing their execution was appropriate if an execution had been ordered.

With that said... if one was to appeal to me on the grounds that we cannot execute people when there might be a shadow of a doubt... I would be inclined to agree with them. An argument centered on erring on the side of caution doesn't inflate my sails as much as one suggesting we prove to be awesome showing mercy or compassion for scum that rape, murder and mutilate children. I'll never be down with this.

That, and the point they raise about the money for executions being better spent on catching murderers and rapists. That, and changing the death sentence to life without parole instead.

pdalowsky

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

Byrnzie...

The thoughts expressed in the previous post are very reasonable. If the argument against the death penalty centers on the fact that innocent people are being sentenced to death... then there isn't much of an argument from me. If things are fuzzy... we most cetainly need to proceed with caution.

Where things fall down for me is when the notion is presented that we cannot sentence a man to death on moral grounds. I'm inclined to think that if a crime is of the extreme and heinous nature (such as some of the examples I have presented throughout this thread) and the perpetrator has been established beyond any doubt at all (photographs, video, trophies, etc.)... it's more than a fair sentence.

Clifford Olson, Michael Rafferty, David Shearing and Robert Picton are but a few that have fared better than Troy Davis. These nice fellows have most certainly acted in such a way that society should comfortably rest knowing their execution was appropriate if an execution had been ordered.

With that said... if one was to appeal to me on the grounds that we cannot execute people when there might be a shadow of a doubt... I would be inclined to agree with them. An argument centered on erring on the side of caution doesn't inflate my sails as much as one suggesting we prove to be awesome showing mercy or compassion for scum that rape, murder and mutilate children. I'll never be down with this.

its an extremely tough one.

I am generally against the death penalty. But i Know i possess a subjective weakness, whereby if one of these brutal child crimes was committed against a child i knew and loved then I know I would want the bastard dead.

I wouldnt ever want to watch. But objectively i find the death penalty hard to digest. I find it hard to support what is effectively mental torture on a fellow human. I know they are often worthless scum, and barely deserve the right to breathe, but the leading a man through his a final day, and strapping him down, and asking him for last words knowing full well he wont ever wake up is hard to reconcile. What must go through that persons mind is hard to even start to comprehend.

So the question comes - do these people deserve anything other than that after their often henious crimes? Actually no they dont, but still I cant support it.

Life in a cell, with limited daylight, and a basic means of living is a very tough punishment. If that drives them mad, then so be it, provide them the means to take their own life maybe.

yet despite all this and you see news like this:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22437771

what on earth drives a person to be so sick and twisted and inherently evil? This guy didnt actually kill anyone, but it definitely sounds like he was in the advanced stages to do so and in a torturous fashion. This kind of news has to challenge even the most die hard anti capital punishment citizen out there.

Offset against the british lady facing the firing squad in a few weeks for trafficking a quantity of drugs, and thats when it all gets messed. Its all well and good those who say 'she knew the punishment before she did the crime'......that doesnt work for me, she hardly deserves to die.

Byrnzie

pdalowsky wrote:

So the question comes - do these people deserve anything other than that after their often henious crimes? Actually no they dont, but still I cant support it.

Life in a cell, with limited daylight, and a basic means of living is a very tough punishment. If that drives them mad, then so be it, provide them the means to take their own life maybe.

I'm not sure if I'd prefer death over life in solitary: http://solitarywatch.com/2013/03/11/voi ... han-death/

pdalowsky wrote:

Offset against the british lady facing the firing squad in a few weeks for trafficking a quantity of drugs, and thats when it all gets messed. Its all well and good those who say 'she knew the punishment before she did the crime'......that doesnt work for me, she hardly deserves to die.

Yeah, I saw that. It's fucked up. Like smuggling drugs is the worst crime in the World? It shouldn't even be categorized as a crime in my opinion. No different from transporting alcohol across any border.

pdalowsky

Byrnzie wrote:

pdalowsky wrote:

So the question comes - do these people deserve anything other than that after their often henious crimes? Actually no they dont, but still I cant support it.

Life in a cell, with limited daylight, and a basic means of living is a very tough punishment. If that drives them mad, then so be it, provide them the means to take their own life maybe.

I'm not sure if I'd prefer death over life in solitary: http://solitarywatch.com/2013/03/11/voi ... han-death/

pdalowsky wrote:

Offset against the british lady facing the firing squad in a few weeks for trafficking a quantity of drugs, and thats when it all gets messed. Its all well and good those who say 'she knew the punishment before she did the crime'......that doesnt work for me, she hardly deserves to die.

Yeah, I saw that. It's fucked up. Like smuggling drugs is the worst crime in the World? It shouldn't even be categorized as a crime in my opinion. No different from transporting alcohol across any border.

well that took some reading, and strangely by the end it was hard not to feel empathy for the guy.

again its hard, the man killed someone and ruined the lives of his two children and his wife, an innocent man just doing his job, so what does he deserve?

It would be interesting to see what choice he would make if he was offered the death penalty as an alternative?

The other question it poses, is how long do you hold a man in conditions like this before returning him into a more 'social' prison system. Is there no desire to rehabilate these people, and solely punish them for as long as they live? Im merely wondering what people think about this?

Thirty Bills Unpaid

pdalowsky wrote:

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

Byrnzie...

The thoughts expressed in the previous post are very reasonable. If the argument against the death penalty centers on the fact that innocent people are being sentenced to death... then there isn't much of an argument from me. If things are fuzzy... we most cetainly need to proceed with caution.

Where things fall down for me is when the notion is presented that we cannot sentence a man to death on moral grounds. I'm inclined to think that if a crime is of the extreme and heinous nature (such as some of the examples I have presented throughout this thread) and the perpetrator has been established beyond any doubt at all (photographs, video, trophies, etc.)... it's more than a fair sentence.

Clifford Olson, Michael Rafferty, David Shearing and Robert Picton are but a few that have fared better than Troy Davis. These nice fellows have most certainly acted in such a way that society should comfortably rest knowing their execution was appropriate if an execution had been ordered.

With that said... if one was to appeal to me on the grounds that we cannot execute people when there might be a shadow of a doubt... I would be inclined to agree with them. An argument centered on erring on the side of caution doesn't inflate my sails as much as one suggesting we prove to be awesome showing mercy or compassion for scum that rape, murder and mutilate children. I'll never be down with this.

its an extremely tough one.

I am generally against the death penalty. But i Know i possess a subjective weakness, whereby if one of these brutal child crimes was committed against a child i knew and loved then I know I would want the bastard dead.

I wouldnt ever want to watch. But objectively i find the death penalty hard to digest. I find it hard to support what is effectively mental torture on a fellow human. I know they are often worthless scum, and barely deserve the right to breathe, but the leading a man through his a final day, and strapping him down, and asking him for last words knowing full well he wont ever wake up is hard to reconcile. What must go through that persons mind is hard to even start to comprehend.

So the question comes - do these people deserve anything other than that after their often henious crimes? Actually no they dont, but still I cant support it.

Life in a cell, with limited daylight, and a basic means of living is a very tough punishment. If that drives them mad, then so be it, provide them the means to take their own life maybe.

yet despite all this and you see news like this:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22437771

what on earth drives a person to be so sick and twisted and inherently evil? This guy didnt actually kill anyone, but it definitely sounds like he was in the advanced stages to do so and in a torturous fashion. This kind of news has to challenge even the most die hard anti capital punishment citizen out there.

Offset against the british lady facing the firing squad in a few weeks for trafficking a quantity of drugs, and thats when it all gets messed. Its all well and good those who say 'she knew the punishment before she did the crime'......that doesnt work for me, she hardly deserves to die.

The link you provided... good lord, man. I'm not even going to comment. Just sick.

We differ- that is all. If I had my way... there would be none of these extreme cases we continue to be besieged with; however... they keep happening. I'm right in the corner of the survivors and their needs. I realize some do not want death for their offender, but I have a strong suspicion most do based on my informal observations. Further, I want a penalty that expresses society's outrage for the crime. It makes no sense for some sick, depraved murderer to serve time similar to that of, say, a car thief.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Byrnzie wrote:

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

Byrnzie...

The thoughts expressed in the previous post are very reasonable. If the argument against the death penalty centers on the fact that innocent people are being sentenced to death... then there isn't much of an argument from me. If things are fuzzy... we most cetainly need to proceed with caution.

Where things fall down for me is when the notion is presented that we cannot sentence a man to death on moral grounds. I'm inclined to think that if a crime is of the extreme and heinous nature (such as some of the examples I have presented throughout this thread) and the perpetrator has been established beyond any doubt at all (photographs, video, trophies, etc.)... it's more than a fair sentence.

Clifford Olson, Michael Rafferty, David Shearing and Robert Picton are but a few that have fared better than Troy Davis. These nice fellows have most certainly acted in such a way that society should comfortably rest knowing their execution was appropriate if an execution had been ordered.

With that said... if one was to appeal to me on the grounds that we cannot execute people when there might be a shadow of a doubt... I would be inclined to agree with them. An argument centered on erring on the side of caution doesn't inflate my sails as much as one suggesting we prove to be awesome showing mercy or compassion for scum that rape, murder and mutilate children. I'll never be down with this.

That, and the point they raise about the money for executions being better spent on catching murderers and rapists. That, and changing the death sentence to life without parole instead.

Life without parole, in Canada, isn't ever that. I have already spoken to you about the loser that slaughtered the family- holding the 2 young girls captive as he raped them before finishing them off. He's served his 30 years. He's gotten married behind bars. He's eligible for parole every 2 years- forcing the survivors to attend his hearings and produce their petitions and speak their opposition.

Not good for a worthless piece of garbage. I don't care how 'improved' he is. His 6 victims haven't improved at all since he stalked, killed, and tortured them.

Even real life without parole doesn't suffice for me. Such a cold, depraved act warrants a little firmer discipline than the same punishment everyone gets when they cross the line.

callen

Thirty:
Two wrongs don’t make a right. Killing is wrong, period. Agree life without the possibility of parole should be just that..and have no problem locking a child rapist up for rest of their lives with minimal creature comforts (so they stay sane enough not to require additional support/Costs) and maybe a little free labor thrown in. This though is a separate subject, but should be addressed.
I know your concerned with innocent people getting killed by mistake so your rationalizing that in clear cases with preponderance of evidence, execute them. As air tight as a case may appear, there WILL be people put to death that are innocent. Are you okay with a few innocent people dying to kill the rest? This will happen.
Also can empathize with family members that have had their family slaughtered by these idiots, but they are not rational (as would be I if this happened to my family) but society has to step in and do the rational thing.
I also don’t want to give a government a means to permanently silence. Crooked cops, federal agencies etc.
Finally, though there are many other reasons, don’t feel vengeance (I’ll define as the wanting to get physical revenge via killing) is healthy.
Peace
Callen

Hugh Freaking Dillon

pdalowsky wrote:

It would be interesting to see what choice he would make if he was offered the death penalty as an alternative?

Jodi Arias chooses death, and she hasn't even been sentenced, and she was only just convicted. the prosecution has to prove that death can even be on the table. her quote says it all:

"Longevity runs in my family, and I don't want to spend the rest of my natural life in one place," a tearful Arias told Fox affiliate KSAZ. "I believe death is the ultimate freedom and I'd rather have my freedom as soon as I can get it."

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/world/ ... 35551.html

Byrnzie

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

pdalowsky wrote:

It would be interesting to see what choice he would make if he was offered the death penalty as an alternative?

Jodi Arias chooses death, and she hasn't even been sentenced, and she was only just convicted. the prosecution has to prove that death can even be on the table. her quote says it all:

"Longevity runs in my family, and I don't want to spend the rest of my natural life in one place," a tearful Arias told Fox affiliate KSAZ. "I believe death is the ultimate freedom and I'd rather have my freedom as soon as I can get it."

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/world/ ... 35551.html

Slightly off topic, but I laughed out loud at your sig.

Godfather.

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

pdalowsky wrote:

It would be interesting to see what choice he would make if he was offered the death penalty as an alternative?

Jodi Arias chooses death, and she hasn't even been sentenced, and she was only just convicted. the prosecution has to prove that death can even be on the table. her quote says it all:

"Longevity runs in my family, and I don't want to spend the rest of my natural life in one place," a tearful Arias told Fox affiliate KSAZ. "I believe death is the ultimate freedom and I'd rather have my freedom as soon as I can get it."

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/world/ ... 35551.html

mannnn I'd sure like to read all the evidense that got her convicted.

Godfather.

pandora

Jodi Arias, more manipulation? She chooses death. Heaven forbid she should choose
to be something good for someone. To feel guilt, to live sorrow like the loved ones
of her victim. Is this was one mentally ill too?

I have not followed, only heard this on the radio news ... she chooses death
cause a lifetime in one place is too long. :? Clearly doesn't appreciate life at all.
or...
figures if she asks for a death sentence it will not be granted.

JimmyV

pandora wrote:

or...
figures if she asks for a death sentence it will not be granted.

I think this is exactly what she is trying for.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

pdalowsky wrote:

It would be interesting to see what choice he would make if he was offered the death penalty as an alternative?

Jodi Arias chooses death, and she hasn't even been sentenced, and she was only just convicted. the prosecution has to prove that death can even be on the table. her quote says it all:

"Longevity runs in my family, and I don't want to spend the rest of my natural life in one place," a tearful Arias told Fox affiliate KSAZ. "I believe death is the ultimate freedom and I'd rather have my freedom as soon as I can get it."

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/world/ ... 35551.html

This case doesn't strike me as being of the 'extreme' nature (as violent as it might have been). If I have my facts straight: it was not a random act, it wasn't in serial or mass fashion, the victim was not a child, and despite a near decapitation... there was no macabre element to it. It's not a qualifier for the death penalty in my books.

With that said... if she wants it then let her have it.

I'm not sure why people can't get their heads around the simple concept of consequences? If I make the choice to sleep in every day and miss work: I get fired. If I make the choice to eat McDonald's every day and never exercise: I get fat. If I make the choice to go out in the sun every day without sunscreen: I run the risk of getting skin cancer. If I make a choice to rape and murder a child: I get sentenced to death.

People arguing about the morality of executing a person who has committed an extreme and heinous offence lose sight of the fact that nobody wishes for state executions: they wish for our children to walk home from school safely and our daughters to sleep in their beds without risk. When someone makes the choice to exercise their morbid fantasies... they face consequences. The more severe the act... the more severe the consequence.

This isn't about deterrent as much as it is about obvious and corresponding response from a society. Some who argue against the death penalty suggest it is cruel. Then they argue that a life in solitary confinement is worse. So, the natural question here is what is it exactly you want? I figure it cannot be a mulligan or a comprehensive rehabilitation program complete with an intramural component... so what exactly does justice look like for Tori Stafford and her surviving family?

chadwick

ohio get ready to fire up your lethal injections & your hot seat. it's fricking on

mikalina

chadwick wrote:

ohio get ready to fire up your lethal injections & your hot seat. it's fricking on

Yep it's on here in Ohio...