Man to be executed for "revenge killings" for 9/11 attacks

JonnyPistachio

Blockhead wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

Blockhead wrote:

:roll: No innocent person should be put to death, but again we are talking about this CASE. There is no secret to who committed these murder.
Its not about not answering, its about taking things like this on a case by case basis.
I was talking about DP in gerneral as in the murder is a proven murder. Not some casey anthony case.
how did I not answer your question?

You said several things that were generalities about the DP - separate from this case, so I asked the simple question referring to your stance on the DP in general. But then you backpedaled saying that we are only talking about this case. Which is it?

Is it that hard for you to understand. I am allowed to have my opinion on general regurgitated talking points that anit-dP people bring up and I disagree with them. That does not make me Pro-DP. My stance on DP is not a general one, its a case by case. Something like this case should end in DP, as I do not view this person have the right to live.

yes it is hard for me to understand when you say one thing and then the opposite. You generalized "us liberals" on our general stance of the DP, and I defended my points and asked a general question back. you got defensive and tried to make it look like we never stopped talking about this specific case. Poor form if you ask me.

But sure lets stay on this case, I stand by my position that the guy was 100% guilty and deserved to rot in jail for life, but I respect that people want to see punishment or revenge or whatever. I do get it, I completely understand. But dont ever suggest that I say this monster was a victim to try to martyr the people who were murdered by him. Thats bad taste.

Prince Of Dorkness

Blockhead wrote:

Do you need help comprehending questions. You were talking about DP not this specific case. You said killing a murder makes you no better than a murder.

Oh honey, don't start that.

You're deflecting, trying to change the subject and doing your best to add these unrelated topics to the discussion because you know you're wrong.

This man wasn't in the act of raping my wife... he was locked up in a cell and the people were no longer in any danger from him.

But we killed him anyway.

That makes us no better than him.

JonnyPistachio

Blockhead wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

No I am not religious. I was speaking figuratively. I don't think anyone should have the right to decide if someone should live or die.. especially focusing on the govt. Just substitute God for "ultimate deciding power of life and death"..and its not completely off base. my point is that the original act of murder is a choice made poorly by the perpetrator. The CHOICe our govt has to kill someone to me is barbaric, costly, ineffective, and flawed.

Do you view killing animals and eating them barbaric?

Wait a minute, I thought we were only talking about this Stroman guy?!
No, I have never killed an animal or been responsible for the killing of an animal for punishment, revenge, or hate in a barbaric manner. Never once used a barbaric act to kill an animal. :P

But another good deflection here too!

Prince Of Dorkness

Blockhead wrote:

Do you view killing animals and eating them barbaric?

Personally? Yes. I do.

I'm a vegan.

But I also think the way we treat livestock, even the ones we don't kill and eat, to be pretty barbaric.

however... that has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

Just admit you're wrong... stop trying to change the subject.

Blockhead

JonnyPistachio wrote:

Blockhead wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

No I am not religious. I was speaking figuratively. I don't think anyone should have the right to decide if someone should live or die.. especially focusing on the govt. Just substitute God for "ultimate deciding power of life and death"..and its not completely off base. my point is that the original act of murder is a choice made poorly by the perpetrator. The CHOICe our govt has to kill someone to me is barbaric, costly, ineffective, and flawed.

Do you view killing animals and eating them barbaric?

Wait a minute, I thought we were only talking about this Stroman guy?!
No, I have never killed an animal or been responsible for the killing of an animal for punishment, revenge, or hate in a barbaric manner. Never once used a barbaric act to kill an animal. :P

But another good deflection here too!

lol, jesus, its not a deflection, I am trying to figure out your view on whats barbaric.

Blockhead

Prince Of Dorkness wrote:

Blockhead wrote:

Do you view killing animals and eating them barbaric?

Personally? Yes. I do.

I'm a vegan.

But I also think the way we treat livestock, even the ones we don't kill and eat, to be pretty barbaric.

however... that has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

Just admit you're wrong... stop trying to change the subject.

admit I am wrong about what, My opinion...
My opinion is that ending someones life, you should lose your right to live. Its not that complicated.

Blockhead

Prince Of Dorkness wrote:

Blockhead wrote:

Do you need help comprehending questions. You were talking about DP not this specific case. You said killing a murder makes you no better than a murder.

Oh honey, don't start that.

You're deflecting, trying to change the subject and doing your best to add these unrelated topics to the discussion because you know you're wrong.

This man wasn't in the act of raping my wife... he was locked up in a cell and the people were no longer in any danger from him.

But we killed him anyway.

That makes us no better than him.

Not really... Its justice within our civil society's judiciary system

JonnyPistachio

Ok, again, I respect that people might believe that this guy forfeited his rights to live when he murdered people, but I believe the victim in this case that lived is amazing for this:

"In order to live in a better and peaceful world, we need to break the cycle of hate and violence. I believe forgiveness is the best policy, which helps to break this cycle," he said, calling himself a victim of a hate crime. "I forgave Mark Stroman many years ago. I believe he was ignorant and not capable of distinguishing between right and wrong. Otherwise he wouldn't have done what he did."

And my overall stance on the DP is this:

"Even if one concedes, for the sake of argument, that some people like Timothy McVeigh deserve to die, we run into all sorts of problems drawing the line between who deserves to live and who deserves to die... At the end of the day, we make so many mistakes in making those decisions that the only clear lesson is that we do not deserve to kill." Michael L. Radelet , PhD, Professor and Associate Chair at the Department of Sociology of the University of Colorado at Boulder.

That is why I asked what you thought about the fact that the govt has killed innocent people. That is the single largest injustice I have ever witnessed. (Besides Bush/Cheney) :P

polaris_x

Blockhead wrote:

so all violent crime is considered homicide?
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_t ... al-victims

it's a better statistic than you presented ... in any case - i find it funny that you want me to quit posting because i missed answering one of your questions meanwhile - everyone else is still waiting for you to answer theirs ...

i would consider homicide a violent crime ... your statistic is all crime ... which could be related to just people reporting more ... we know in many parts of the states - law enforcement budgets are decimated that many crimes just don't get reported cuz people know nothing would be done about it ...

Blockhead

polaris_x wrote:

Blockhead wrote:

so all violent crime is considered homicide?
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_t ... al-victims

it's a better statistic than you presented ... in any case - i find it funny that you want me to quit posting because i missed answering one of your questions meanwhile - everyone else is still waiting for you to answer theirs ...

i would consider homicide a violent crime ... your statistic is all crime ... which could be related to just people reporting more ... we know in many parts of the states - law enforcement budgets are decimated that many crimes just don't get reported cuz people know nothing would be done about it ...

Which question did I not answer.
Also US does not lead in Violent Crime.

polaris_x

Blockhead wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

Blockhead wrote:

so all violent crime is considered homicide?
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_t ... al-victims

it's a better statistic than you presented ... in any case - i find it funny that you want me to quit posting because i missed answering one of your questions meanwhile - everyone else is still waiting for you to answer theirs ...

i would consider homicide a violent crime ... your statistic is all crime ... which could be related to just people reporting more ... we know in many parts of the states - law enforcement budgets are decimated that many crimes just don't get reported cuz people know nothing would be done about it ...

Which question did I not answer.
Also US does not lead in Violent Crime.

i said violent crime amongst developed countries ... in every single post ... feel free to prove to me otherwise ...

Blockhead

polaris_x wrote:

i said violent crime amongst developed countries ... in every single post ... feel free to prove to me otherwise ...

UK is not developed?

polaris_x

Blockhead wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

i said violent crime amongst developed countries ... in every single post ... feel free to prove to me otherwise ...

UK is not developed?

what stat are you looking at? ... the one i sent has the UK well below the US ...

Go Beavers

Blockhead wrote:

Go Beavers wrote:

Blockhead wrote:

Again,
why do you keep posting this?

The death penalty doesn't deter crime and the homicide rate in the U.S. leads Western countries. That's probably why they keep posting this.

so all violent crime is considered homicide?
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_t ... al-victims

No, homicide is considered homicide, and it's the more valid measure when comparing the U.S. to other countries because the definition is more cut and dry. In your link, it references all crimes, and countries vary with their definition of crimes and how they gather the information, so once again, you're posting links to info of questionable validity. I know polaris referenced "violent crime", so you're trying to split hairs with word usage. You can think other western countries are just as violent as the U.S., but based on my opinion, anecdotal evidence, and valid statistics, I disagree.

Blockhead

polaris_x wrote:

Blockhead wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

i said violent crime amongst developed countries ... in every single post ... feel free to prove to me otherwise ...

UK is not developed?

what stat are you looking at? ... the one i sent has the UK well below the US ...

I can't find anywhere where the US is above the UK.
http://wheelgun.blogspot.com/2007/01/cr ... in-us.html

Blockhead

Go Beavers wrote:

No, homicide is considered homicide, and it's the more valid measure when comparing the U.S. to other countries because the definition is more cut and dry. In your link, it references all crimes, and countries vary with their definition of crimes and how they gather the information, so once again, you're posting links to info of questionable validity. I know polaris referenced "violent crime", so you're trying to split hairs with word usage. You can think other western countries are just as violent as the U.S., but based on my opinion, anecdotal evidence, and valid statistics, I disagree.

Rape - http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_r ... per-capita
manslaughter - http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_m ... per-capita
I see canada ahead in both... Where are your valid stats at?

polaris_x

Blockhead wrote:

I can't find anywhere where the US is above the UK.
http://wheelgun.blogspot.com/2007/01/cr ... in-us.html

interesting chart ... the problem is i can't find the source ... i've just spent the last while googling everything ... it says it uses the UN as a source ...

anyways - when i goto the UN website ... and go to crime ... you get this page

http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and- ... edata.html

which links back to my original link ...

your sources all seem to be from some right wing blog or newspaper ... yet i can't find the original report ...

polaris_x

Blockhead wrote:

Go Beavers wrote:

No, homicide is considered homicide, and it's the more valid measure when comparing the U.S. to other countries because the definition is more cut and dry. In your link, it references all crimes, and countries vary with their definition of crimes and how they gather the information, so once again, you're posting links to info of questionable validity. I know polaris referenced "violent crime", so you're trying to split hairs with word usage. You can think other western countries are just as violent as the U.S., but based on my opinion, anecdotal evidence, and valid statistics, I disagree.

Rape - http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_r ... per-capita
manslaughter - http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_m ... per-capita
I see canada ahead in both... Where are your valid stats at?

why don't you post these as well?

murders with firearms per capita ... http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_m ... per-capita

assaults per capita ... http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_a ... per-capita

Prince Of Dorkness

Blockhead wrote:

My opinion is that ending someones life, you should lose your right to live. Its not that complicated.

So how come it's mostly poor black men who get executed and there's never been a rich person executed?

How come, if it's as cut and dry as you say.. that it's not that cut and dry?

CJMST3K

Prince Of Dorkness wrote:

Blockhead wrote:

My opinion is that ending someones life, you should lose your right to live. Its not that complicated.

So how come it's mostly poor black men who get executed and there's never been a rich person executed?

How come, if it's as cut and dry as you say.. that it's not that cut and dry?

You state the race of the "poor black men", but not of the "rich person". Since you included the race in the first one, shouldn't you include the race in the second one, for an accurate comparison?