the death penalty only serves the appetite for revenge ... nothing more ... sure, the perpetrator will not be able to kill anyone else but it does not act as a deterrent to would be murderers ... life in prison would in most situations accomplish the same thing ...
again - one has to ask themselves why in such a land of opportunities and freedoms does the US lead the developed countries in violent crime statistics by a landslide? ...
Again,
why do you keep posting this?
The death penalty doesn't deter crime and the homicide rate in the U.S. leads Western countries. That's probably why they keep posting this.
God damn dude, can you not fucking comprehend anything. I used YOU as in people in general. It wasn't a personal attack... Its pretty sick that you can comprehend something that this guy did.
Its pathetic how badly you just insulted people who have been murdered. You would rather give up your only life on earth, over spending it in a cell where you can still read, sleep, feel, communicate with family/friends.
are you going to address my post, other than the fact that i would rather die than live in prison? how the hell does that insult anyone.
i think most people would agree with me if posed this question.
"would you rather be killed, or would you rather live the rest of your life on 23 hour a day lockdown, in solitary confinement, where you will be able to read, exercise an hour a day, eat prison food, have no visitors, be unable to enjoy a beer and bar b que and watch a baseball game on a saturday afternoon, live under constant threat of violence, not just from other prisoners when/if you do get to interact with them, but from guards as well, get to shower twice a week, make no money and have nothing to buy with what little you have, and be cut off from your family, friends, and loved ones?"
the answer is a simple one for me...
That was not my question. Life in prison is not solitary confinement. Quit backpedaling?
i am not backpedaling.
in many cases life in prison is in solitary. it depends on the crime, the prison facility, and other factors such as mental health and prior record, and prior behavior in jail..
my former roommate was a guard at the supermax Tamms. all of those dudes were on life sentences and all of them were alone in their cells and most had no contact with other prisoners.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
The costs of administering capital punishment are prohibitive. Even in states where prosecutors infrequently seek the death penalty, the price of obtaining convictions and executions ranges from $2.5 million to $5 million per case (in current dollars), compared to less than $1 million for each killer sentenced to life without parole."
...but i'd prefer MY govt not play God. I don't play God, so why should the govt.
Are you religious? Zeus has nothing to do with this.
And if you believe in the Western God, then you also believe he does not determine who lives and who dies. Another specious argument. (Because if he did, wouldn't those 2 innocent people be alive regardless of what you think of their killer?)
(For the 50th time - not advocating DP. Just weeding out the points that I constantly hear in these discussions that are completely off base).
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
Thats fine, we know you wont answer. Because you cant.
I agree though.. this specific case is a tough one.. the guy in this case was caught on video. Hes dead now though. I honestly would have a hard time controlling myself from beating him to a pulp if I had a chance, but i'd prefer MY govt not play God. I don't play God, so why should the govt. People who are murderers are not right in the head to begin with. its not good to stoop to their level.
btw, talk about backpedaling...Earlier you were talking DP in general, that's why I asked this general question, which apparently you will not even try to answer.
:roll: No innocent person should be put to death, but again we are talking about this CASE. There is no secret to who committed these murder.
Its not about not answering, its about taking things like this on a case by case basis.
I was talking about DP in gerneral as in the murder is a proven murder. Not some casey anthony case.
how did I not answer your question?
The costs of administering capital punishment are prohibitive. Even in states where prosecutors infrequently seek the death penalty, the price of obtaining convictions and executions ranges from $2.5 million to $5 million per case (in current dollars), compared to less than $1 million for each killer sentenced to life without parole."
...but i'd prefer MY govt not play God. I don't play God, so why should the govt.
Are you religious? Zeus has nothing to do with this.
And if you believe in the Western God, then you also believe he does not determine who lives and who dies. Another specious argument. (Because if he did, wouldn't those 2 innocent people be alive regardless of what you think of their killer?)
(For the 50th time - not advocating DP. Just weeding out the points that I constantly hear in these discussions that are completely off base).
No I am not religious. I was speaking figuratively. I don't think anyone should have the right to decide if someone should live or die.. especially focusing on the govt. Just substitute God for "ultimate deciding power of life and death"..and its not completely off base. my point is that the original act of murder is a choice made poorly by the perpetrator. The CHOICe our govt has to kill someone to me is barbaric, costly, ineffective, and flawed.
...but i'd prefer MY govt not play God. I don't play God, so why should the govt.
Are you religious? Zeus has nothing to do with this.
And if you believe in the Western God, then you also believe he does not determine who lives and who dies. Another specious argument. (Because if he did, wouldn't those 2 innocent people be alive regardless of what you think of their killer?)
(For the 50th time - not advocating DP. Just weeding out the points that I constantly hear in these discussions that are completely off base).
No I am not religious. I was speaking figuratively. I don't think anyone should have the right to decide if someone should live or die.. especially focusing on the govt. Just substitute God for "ultimate deciding power of life and death"..and its not completely off base. my point is that the original act of murder is a choice made poorly by the perpetrator. The CHOICe our govt has to kill someone to me is barbaric, costly, ineffective, and flawed.
Do you view killing animals and eating them barbaric?
Thats fine, we know you wont answer. Because you cant.
I agree though.. this specific case is a tough one.. the guy in this case was caught on video. Hes dead now though. I honestly would have a hard time controlling myself from beating him to a pulp if I had a chance, but i'd prefer MY govt not play God. I don't play God, so why should the govt. People who are murderers are not right in the head to begin with. its not good to stoop to their level.
btw, talk about backpedaling...Earlier you were talking DP in general, that's why I asked this general question, which apparently you will not even try to answer.
:roll: No innocent person should be put to death, but again we are talking about this CASE. There is no secret to who committed these murder.
Its not about not answering, its about taking things like this on a case by case basis.
I was talking about DP in gerneral as in the murder is a proven murder. Not some casey anthony case.
how did I not answer your question?
You said several things that were generalities about the DP - separate from this case, so I asked the simple question referring to your stance on the DP in general. But then you backpedaled saying that we are only talking about this case. Which is it?
Thats fine, we know you wont answer. Because you cant.
I agree though.. this specific case is a tough one.. the guy in this case was caught on video. Hes dead now though. I honestly would have a hard time controlling myself from beating him to a pulp if I had a chance, but i'd prefer MY govt not play God. I don't play God, so why should the govt. People who are murderers are not right in the head to begin with. its not good to stoop to their level.
btw, talk about backpedaling...Earlier you were talking DP in general, that's why I asked this general question, which apparently you will not even try to answer.
:roll: No innocent person should be put to death, but again we are talking about this CASE. There is no secret to who committed these murder.
Its not about not answering, its about taking things like this on a case by case basis.
I was talking about DP in gerneral as in the murder is a proven murder. Not some casey anthony case.
how did I not answer your question?
You said several things that were generalities about the DP - separate from this case, so I asked the simple question referring to your stance on the DP in general. But then you backpedaled saying that we are only talking about this case. Which is it?
Is it that hard for you to understand. I am allowed to have my opinion on general regurgitated talking points that anit-dP people bring up and I disagree with them. That does not make me Pro-DP. My stance on DP is not a general one, its a case by case. Something like this case should end in DP, as I do not view this person have the right to live.
:roll: No innocent person should be put to death, but again we are talking about this CASE. There is no secret to who committed these murder.
Its not about not answering, its about taking things like this on a case by case basis.
I was talking about DP in gerneral as in the murder is a proven murder. Not some casey anthony case.
how did I not answer your question?
You said several things that were generalities about the DP - separate from this case, so I asked the simple question referring to your stance on the DP in general. But then you backpedaled saying that we are only talking about this case. Which is it?
Is it that hard for you to understand. I am allowed to have my opinion on general regurgitated talking points that anit-dP people bring up and I disagree with them. That does not make me Pro-DP. My stance on DP is not a general one, its a case by case. Something like this case should end in DP, as I do not view this person have the right to live.
yes it is hard for me to understand when you say one thing and then the opposite. You generalized "us liberals" on our general stance of the DP, and I defended my points and asked a general question back. you got defensive and tried to make it look like we never stopped talking about this specific case. Poor form if you ask me.
But sure lets stay on this case, I stand by my position that the guy was 100% guilty and deserved to rot in jail for life, but I respect that people want to see punishment or revenge or whatever. I do get it, I completely understand. But dont ever suggest that I say this monster was a victim to try to martyr the people who were murdered by him. Thats bad taste.
Do you need help comprehending questions. You were talking about DP not this specific case. You said killing a murder makes you no better than a murder.
Oh honey, don't start that.
You're deflecting, trying to change the subject and doing your best to add these unrelated topics to the discussion because you know you're wrong.
This man wasn't in the act of raping my wife... he was locked up in a cell and the people were no longer in any danger from him.
No I am not religious. I was speaking figuratively. I don't think anyone should have the right to decide if someone should live or die.. especially focusing on the govt. Just substitute God for "ultimate deciding power of life and death"..and its not completely off base. my point is that the original act of murder is a choice made poorly by the perpetrator. The CHOICe our govt has to kill someone to me is barbaric, costly, ineffective, and flawed.
Do you view killing animals and eating them barbaric?
Wait a minute, I thought we were only talking about this Stroman guy?!
No, I have never killed an animal or been responsible for the killing of an animal for punishment, revenge, or hate in a barbaric manner. Never once used a barbaric act to kill an animal. :P
No I am not religious. I was speaking figuratively. I don't think anyone should have the right to decide if someone should live or die.. especially focusing on the govt. Just substitute God for "ultimate deciding power of life and death"..and its not completely off base. my point is that the original act of murder is a choice made poorly by the perpetrator. The CHOICe our govt has to kill someone to me is barbaric, costly, ineffective, and flawed.
Do you view killing animals and eating them barbaric?
Wait a minute, I thought we were only talking about this Stroman guy?!
No, I have never killed an animal or been responsible for the killing of an animal for punishment, revenge, or hate in a barbaric manner. Never once used a barbaric act to kill an animal. :P
But another good deflection here too!
lol, jesus, its not a deflection, I am trying to figure out your view on whats barbaric.
Do you need help comprehending questions. You were talking about DP not this specific case. You said killing a murder makes you no better than a murder.
Oh honey, don't start that.
You're deflecting, trying to change the subject and doing your best to add these unrelated topics to the discussion because you know you're wrong.
This man wasn't in the act of raping my wife... he was locked up in a cell and the people were no longer in any danger from him.
But we killed him anyway.
That makes us no better than him.
Not really... Its justice within our civil society's judiciary system
Ok, again, I respect that people might believe that this guy forfeited his rights to live when he murdered people, but I believe the victim in this case that lived is amazing for this:
"In order to live in a better and peaceful world, we need to break the cycle of hate and violence. I believe forgiveness is the best policy, which helps to break this cycle," he said, calling himself a victim of a hate crime. "I forgave Mark Stroman many years ago. I believe he was ignorant and not capable of distinguishing between right and wrong. Otherwise he wouldn't have done what he did."
And my overall stance on the DP is this:
"Even if one concedes, for the sake of argument, that some people like Timothy McVeigh deserve to die, we run into all sorts of problems drawing the line between who deserves to live and who deserves to die... At the end of the day, we make so many mistakes in making those decisions that the only clear lesson is that we do not deserve to kill." Michael L. Radelet , PhD, Professor and Associate Chair at the Department of Sociology of the University of Colorado at Boulder.
That is why I asked what you thought about the fact that the govt has killed innocent people. That is the single largest injustice I have ever witnessed. (Besides Bush/Cheney) :P
it's a better statistic than you presented ... in any case - i find it funny that you want me to quit posting because i missed answering one of your questions meanwhile - everyone else is still waiting for you to answer theirs ...
i would consider homicide a violent crime ... your statistic is all crime ... which could be related to just people reporting more ... we know in many parts of the states - law enforcement budgets are decimated that many crimes just don't get reported cuz people know nothing would be done about it ...
it's a better statistic than you presented ... in any case - i find it funny that you want me to quit posting because i missed answering one of your questions meanwhile - everyone else is still waiting for you to answer theirs ...
i would consider homicide a violent crime ... your statistic is all crime ... which could be related to just people reporting more ... we know in many parts of the states - law enforcement budgets are decimated that many crimes just don't get reported cuz people know nothing would be done about it ...
Which question did I not answer.
Also US does not lead in Violent Crime.
it's a better statistic than you presented ... in any case - i find it funny that you want me to quit posting because i missed answering one of your questions meanwhile - everyone else is still waiting for you to answer theirs ...
i would consider homicide a violent crime ... your statistic is all crime ... which could be related to just people reporting more ... we know in many parts of the states - law enforcement budgets are decimated that many crimes just don't get reported cuz people know nothing would be done about it ...
Which question did I not answer.
Also US does not lead in Violent Crime.
i said violent crime amongst developed countries ... in every single post ... feel free to prove to me otherwise ...
No, homicide is considered homicide, and it's the more valid measure when comparing the U.S. to other countries because the definition is more cut and dry. In your link, it references all crimes, and countries vary with their definition of crimes and how they gather the information, so once again, you're posting links to info of questionable validity. I know polaris referenced "violent crime", so you're trying to split hairs with word usage. You can think other western countries are just as violent as the U.S., but based on my opinion, anecdotal evidence, and valid statistics, I disagree.
No, homicide is considered homicide, and it's the more valid measure when comparing the U.S. to other countries because the definition is more cut and dry. In your link, it references all crimes, and countries vary with their definition of crimes and how they gather the information, so once again, you're posting links to info of questionable validity. I know polaris referenced "violent crime", so you're trying to split hairs with word usage. You can think other western countries are just as violent as the U.S., but based on my opinion, anecdotal evidence, and valid statistics, I disagree.
interesting chart ... the problem is i can't find the source ... i've just spent the last while googling everything ... it says it uses the UN as a source ...
anyways - when i goto the UN website ... and go to crime ... you get this page
No, homicide is considered homicide, and it's the more valid measure when comparing the U.S. to other countries because the definition is more cut and dry. In your link, it references all crimes, and countries vary with their definition of crimes and how they gather the information, so once again, you're posting links to info of questionable validity. I know polaris referenced "violent crime", so you're trying to split hairs with word usage. You can think other western countries are just as violent as the U.S., but based on my opinion, anecdotal evidence, and valid statistics, I disagree.
My opinion is that ending someones life, you should lose your right to live. Its not that complicated.
So how come it's mostly poor black men who get executed and there's never been a rich person executed?
How come, if it's as cut and dry as you say.. that it's not that cut and dry?
You state the race of the "poor black men", but not of the "rich person". Since you included the race in the first one, shouldn't you include the race in the second one, for an accurate comparison?
ADD 5,200 to the post count you see, thank you.
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
Comments
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_t ... al-victims
in many cases life in prison is in solitary. it depends on the crime, the prison facility, and other factors such as mental health and prior record, and prior behavior in jail..
my former roommate was a guard at the supermax Tamms. all of those dudes were on life sentences and all of them were alone in their cells and most had no contact with other prisoners.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
http://www.law.columbia.edu/law_school/ ... italpunish
also a great stat: Texas, Florida, and Louisiana are among the leaders nationwide in executions -- and lead the nation in murders per 100,000 people.
Yay! lets just keep on killing! :roll:
Are you religious? Zeus has nothing to do with this.
And if you believe in the Western God, then you also believe he does not determine who lives and who dies. Another specious argument. (Because if he did, wouldn't those 2 innocent people be alive regardless of what you think of their killer?)
(For the 50th time - not advocating DP. Just weeding out the points that I constantly hear in these discussions that are completely off base).
Its not about not answering, its about taking things like this on a case by case basis.
I was talking about DP in gerneral as in the murder is a proven murder. Not some casey anthony case.
how did I not answer your question?
No I am not religious. I was speaking figuratively. I don't think anyone should have the right to decide if someone should live or die.. especially focusing on the govt. Just substitute God for "ultimate deciding power of life and death"..and its not completely off base. my point is that the original act of murder is a choice made poorly by the perpetrator. The CHOICe our govt has to kill someone to me is barbaric, costly, ineffective, and flawed.
You said several things that were generalities about the DP - separate from this case, so I asked the simple question referring to your stance on the DP in general. But then you backpedaled saying that we are only talking about this case. Which is it?
yes it is hard for me to understand when you say one thing and then the opposite. You generalized "us liberals" on our general stance of the DP, and I defended my points and asked a general question back. you got defensive and tried to make it look like we never stopped talking about this specific case. Poor form if you ask me.
But sure lets stay on this case, I stand by my position that the guy was 100% guilty and deserved to rot in jail for life, but I respect that people want to see punishment or revenge or whatever. I do get it, I completely understand. But dont ever suggest that I say this monster was a victim to try to martyr the people who were murdered by him. Thats bad taste.
Oh honey, don't start that.
You're deflecting, trying to change the subject and doing your best to add these unrelated topics to the discussion because you know you're wrong.
This man wasn't in the act of raping my wife... he was locked up in a cell and the people were no longer in any danger from him.
But we killed him anyway.
That makes us no better than him.
Wait a minute, I thought we were only talking about this Stroman guy?!
No, I have never killed an animal or been responsible for the killing of an animal for punishment, revenge, or hate in a barbaric manner. Never once used a barbaric act to kill an animal. :P
But another good deflection here too!
Personally? Yes. I do.
I'm a vegan.
But I also think the way we treat livestock, even the ones we don't kill and eat, to be pretty barbaric.
however... that has nothing to do with what we're talking about.
Just admit you're wrong... stop trying to change the subject.
My opinion is that ending someones life, you should lose your right to live. Its not that complicated.
"In order to live in a better and peaceful world, we need to break the cycle of hate and violence. I believe forgiveness is the best policy, which helps to break this cycle," he said, calling himself a victim of a hate crime. "I forgave Mark Stroman many years ago. I believe he was ignorant and not capable of distinguishing between right and wrong. Otherwise he wouldn't have done what he did."
And my overall stance on the DP is this:
"Even if one concedes, for the sake of argument, that some people like Timothy McVeigh deserve to die, we run into all sorts of problems drawing the line between who deserves to live and who deserves to die... At the end of the day, we make so many mistakes in making those decisions that the only clear lesson is that we do not deserve to kill." Michael L. Radelet , PhD, Professor and Associate Chair at the Department of Sociology of the University of Colorado at Boulder.
That is why I asked what you thought about the fact that the govt has killed innocent people. That is the single largest injustice I have ever witnessed. (Besides Bush/Cheney) :P
it's a better statistic than you presented ... in any case - i find it funny that you want me to quit posting because i missed answering one of your questions meanwhile - everyone else is still waiting for you to answer theirs ...
i would consider homicide a violent crime ... your statistic is all crime ... which could be related to just people reporting more ... we know in many parts of the states - law enforcement budgets are decimated that many crimes just don't get reported cuz people know nothing would be done about it ...
Also US does not lead in Violent Crime.
i said violent crime amongst developed countries ... in every single post ... feel free to prove to me otherwise ...
what stat are you looking at? ... the one i sent has the UK well below the US ...
No, homicide is considered homicide, and it's the more valid measure when comparing the U.S. to other countries because the definition is more cut and dry. In your link, it references all crimes, and countries vary with their definition of crimes and how they gather the information, so once again, you're posting links to info of questionable validity. I know polaris referenced "violent crime", so you're trying to split hairs with word usage. You can think other western countries are just as violent as the U.S., but based on my opinion, anecdotal evidence, and valid statistics, I disagree.
http://wheelgun.blogspot.com/2007/01/cr ... in-us.html
manslaughter - http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_m ... per-capita
I see canada ahead in both... Where are your valid stats at?
interesting chart ... the problem is i can't find the source ... i've just spent the last while googling everything ... it says it uses the UN as a source ...
anyways - when i goto the UN website ... and go to crime ... you get this page
http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and- ... edata.html
which links back to my original link ...
your sources all seem to be from some right wing blog or newspaper ... yet i can't find the original report ...
why don't you post these as well?
murders with firearms per capita ... http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_m ... per-capita
assaults per capita ... http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_a ... per-capita
So how come it's mostly poor black men who get executed and there's never been a rich person executed?
How come, if it's as cut and dry as you say.. that it's not that cut and dry?
You state the race of the "poor black men", but not of the "rich person". Since you included the race in the first one, shouldn't you include the race in the second one, for an accurate comparison?
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10