I guess for me, the hypocrisy is in the picking and choosing of heroes and who's being called a jerk and who's not. I assume you view MLK as a hero. I know I do. But I dont think Coretta Scott King would ever admit it, but im sure MLK's cheating on her was extremely painful and disturbing to her. And Bayard Rustin, the gay civil rights activist who was marginalized continually, and forced to leave the movement by MLK, because King felt gay rights were maybe not important or werent as important as blacks getting civil rights, i know that caused an impact on his life, because I read a 400 page book on the guy. Do these things equal ruining peoples lives?
I just think we need to look at humans as humans. In all their glory and their faults. I find Livestrong and all the work they've done and Lance has done in that arena, to be amazing. Livestrong is a fantastic organization. I love the website, and think what they do is helpful, important, and I dont regret wearing the yellow bracelet or owning a Livestrong t-shirt. I would and will buy more merch from them. I support what they do. I support their mission. I think cancer is awful and a cure should be found, and that we need to support people who have been diagnosed with it. Lance didnt have to create the organization, nor did he have to do activist work on behalf of it. He did do that though. I read his tweets for years prior, and they almost always involved mentioning some benefit, Livestrong, shouting out a cancer survivor or wishing someone prayers and love who had just been diagnosed.
Based on all this, I do believe Lance is a good guy.
I also think his case was unique in large part because of the cancer. Bonds let people down, but I didnt have a personal connection with the guy. He didnt mean anything to me. I was emotionally and personally invested in the 7 tour wins and the Lance story. Admitting he lied had obvious consequences that we all saw in the last week. Anyone, Lance included, knew that would happen. He said as much in that one video shown on Oprah, he knew what exposure of the lie would mean. And it extended beyond money and fame.
It would be pretty scary to admit your life the last 15 years was a lie, that you were an imposter. And to let millions of cancer survivors down as a result. Thats a heavy burden. This all played a part in this story.
I guess for me, the hypocrisy is in the picking and choosing of heroes and who's being called a jerk and who's not. I assume you view MLK as a hero. I know I do. But I dont think Coretta Scott King would ever admit it, but im sure MLK's cheating on her was extremely painful and disturbing to her. And Bayard Rustin, the gay civil rights activist who was marginalized continually, and forced to leave the movement by MLK, because King felt gay rights were maybe not important or werent as important as blacks getting civil rights, i know that caused an impact on his life, because I read a 400 page book on the guy. Do these things equal ruining peoples lives?
I just think we need to look at humans as humans. In all their glory and their faults. I find Livestrong and all the work they've done and Lance has done in that arena, to be amazing. Livestrong is a fantastic organization. I love the website, and think what they do is helpful, important, and I dont regret wearing the yellow bracelet or owning a Livestrong t-shirt. I would and will buy more merch from them. I support what they do. I support their mission. I think cancer is awful and a cure should be found, and that we need to support people who have been diagnosed with it. Lance didnt have to create the organization, nor did he have to do activist work on behalf of it. He did do that though. I read his tweets for years prior, and they almost always involved mentioning some benefit, Livestrong, shouting out a cancer survivor or wishing someone prayers and love who had just been diagnosed.
Based on all this, I do believe Lance is a good guy.
I also think his case was unique in large part because of the cancer. Bonds let people down, but I didnt have a personal connection with the guy. He didnt mean anything to me. I was emotionally and personally invested in the 7 tour wins and the Lance story. Admitting he lied had obvious consequences that we all saw in the last week. Anyone, Lance included, knew that would happen. He said as much in that one video shown on Oprah, he knew what exposure of the lie would mean. And it extended beyond money and fame.
It would be pretty scary to admit your life the last 15 years was a lie, that you were an imposter. And to let millions of cancer survivors down as a result. Thats a heavy burden. This all played a part in this story.
livestrong is an organization built around the guy's cause and his name. of course it's a great organization, but sending a shout out tweet does not a good guy make.
I'm judging Lance on Lance. I'm not judging him compared to anyone else, which is what should be done. I don't judge anyone based on anything but their own merits and shortfalls. comparing one person to another does a disservice to both.
maybe Lance is a great dad. maybe he's a great friend, but BASED ON ALL THAT HE DID TO OTHERS THAT I KNOW OF, I don't think he's a good person. I think he has the potential to be, given what he's (hopefully) learned as a result of all this, but we won't know that for a long time.
And his admission on Oprah wasn't to come clean. It was to help his cause in getting back into competing professionally. Again, self serving.
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I guess for me, the hypocrisy is in the picking and choosing of heroes and who's being called a jerk and who's not. I assume you view MLK as a hero. I know I do. But I dont think Coretta Scott King would ever admit it, but im sure MLK's cheating on her was extremely painful and disturbing to her. And Bayard Rustin, the gay civil rights activist who was marginalized continually, and forced to leave the movement by MLK, because King felt gay rights were maybe not important or werent as important as blacks getting civil rights, i know that caused an impact on his life, because I read a 400 page book on the guy. Do these things equal ruining peoples lives?
I just think we need to look at humans as humans. In all their glory and their faults. I find Livestrong and all the work they've done and Lance has done in that arena, to be amazing. Livestrong is a fantastic organization. I love the website, and think what they do is helpful, important, and I dont regret wearing the yellow bracelet or owning a Livestrong t-shirt. I would and will buy more merch from them. I support what they do. I support their mission. I think cancer is awful and a cure should be found, and that we need to support people who have been diagnosed with it. Lance didnt have to create the organization, nor did he have to do activist work on behalf of it. He did do that though. I read his tweets for years prior, and they almost always involved mentioning some benefit, Livestrong, shouting out a cancer survivor or wishing someone prayers and love who had just been diagnosed.
Based on all this, I do believe Lance is a good guy.
I also think his case was unique in large part because of the cancer. Bonds let people down, but I didnt have a personal connection with the guy. He didnt mean anything to me. I was emotionally and personally invested in the 7 tour wins and the Lance story. Admitting he lied had obvious consequences that we all saw in the last week. Anyone, Lance included, knew that would happen. He said as much in that one video shown on Oprah, he knew what exposure of the lie would mean. And it extended beyond money and fame.
It would be pretty scary to admit your life the last 15 years was a lie, that you were an imposter. And to let millions of cancer survivors down as a result. Thats a heavy burden. This all played a part in this story.
livestrong is an organization built around the guy's cause and his name. of course it's a great organization, but sending a shout out tweet does not a good guy make.
I'm judging Lance on Lance. I'm not judging him compared to anyone else, which is what should be done. I don't judge anyone based on anything but their own merits and shortfalls. comparing one person to another does a disservice to both.
maybe Lance is a great dad. maybe he's a great friend, but BASED ON ALL THAT HE DID TO OTHERS THAT I KNOW OF, I don't think he's a good person. I think he has the potential to be, given what he's (hopefully) learned as a result of all this, but we won't know that for a long time.
And his admission on Oprah wasn't to come clean. It was to help his cause in getting back into competing professionally. Again, self serving.
We have no idea whats going on in Lances head. You or I have no idea why he lied for 16 years and continued to lie, or also why he admitted it the other week.
Also, cheating and lying and suing people also doesnt make someone a bad person, or at least an all bad person. Its one side of him. We dont know what he's like with his wife or children or what he was like when he interacted with staff members at Livestrong.
Pandora or whoever was arguing a couple days ago, that his teammates came clean for the good of the sport and because they wanted to help out the sport and because they realized cheating was wrong. And then when Lance was discussed they argued everything he did was based on self serving interests. Thats silly logic and it doesnt hold water.
Lance is a scapegoat. Just like Mcgwire and Bonds are. Punishments should be doled out. Records stripped. Awards taken away. But, for me, the real stunning thing is society as a whole's, lack of dealing with cheating and doping in all sports. Had lance never been on tour, the sport wouldnt have been clean.
The cycling world needs to clean house. And heads need to roll. Officials, and higher ups, UCI heads needs to be fired and gone after in a legal manner to deal with these issues.
I'd like to see cycling clean. Those 7 tours were among my most fondest memories of the last decade. And to know it was a hoax is heartbreaking. But all this stuff is childs play, and to identify it otherwise isnt being truthful.
While Lance is getting the hot seat, all the other more powerful people, who knew about it, did nothing, covered it up, all remain free, and unblemished. Some even still have jobs. Thats wrong from any standpoint.
Im a big believer in justice. And justice in this case isnt solely dependent on Lance.
If the people who allowed cheating to happen and occur and continue, still are ruling the cycling world, how is the sport going to be cleaned up. It isnt.
The head of UCI, and all the other major cycling organizations, those who tested not only Lance, but every other rider, need to be fired, and fined.
Its like baseball. Cleaning up baseball isnt contingent on Bonds or Mcgwire. Its contingent on so much more.
We have no idea whats going on in Lances head. You or I have no idea why he lied for 16 years and continued to lie, or also why he admitted it the other week.
Also, cheating and lying and suing people also doesnt make someone a bad person, or at least an all bad person. Its one side of him. We dont know what he's like with his wife or children or what he was like when he interacted with staff members at Livestrong.
Pandora or whoever was arguing a couple days ago, that his teammates came clean for the good of the sport and because they wanted to help out the sport and because they realized cheating was wrong. And then when Lance was discussed they argued everything he did was based on self serving interests. Thats silly logic and it doesnt hold water.
Lance is a scapegoat. Just like Mcgwire and Bonds are. Punishments should be doled out. Records stripped. Awards taken away. But, for me, the real stunning thing is society as a whole's, lack of dealing with cheating and doping in all sports. Had lance never been on tour, the sport wouldnt have been clean.
The cycling world needs to clean house. And heads need to roll. Officials, and higher ups, UCI heads needs to be fired and gone after in a legal manner to deal with these issues.
I'd like to see cycling clean. Those 7 tours were among my most fondest memories of the last decade. And to know it was a hoax is heartbreaking. But all this stuff is childs play, and to identify it otherwise isnt being truthful.
While Lance is getting the hot seat, all the other more powerful people, who knew about it, did nothing, covered it up, all remain free, and unblemished. Some even still have jobs. Thats wrong from any standpoint.
Im a big believer in justice. And justice in this case isnt solely dependent on Lance.
If the people who allowed cheating to happen and occur and continue, still are ruling the cycling world, how is the sport going to be cleaned up. It isnt.
The head of UCI, and all the other major cycling organizations, those who tested not only Lance, but every other rider, need to be fired, and fined.
Its like baseball. Cleaning up baseball isnt contingent on Bonds or Mcgwire. Its contingent on so much more.
yes, I agree, all should be dealt the same judicial hand. no doubt about it. but I'm not judging lance based on what others did or who let things happen on the admin side. I don't care. All I know is what Lance did. And that to me, makes him a bad person. end of story.
it's laughable for anyone (not you) to suggest his team mates came clean for the good of the sport. they did it for themselves.
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soo ... the defense of lance is simply that other people are flawed? ... mind boggling ... this guy ruined people's lives ... and in the face of all that is in front of him does not have the integrity to tell the truth ... instead lance continues to do what lance does to make people despise him ... lie and act self-serving ...
But I promise you, if he had overseen such a gigantic cheating operation and been NICE about it, people wouldn't want him thrown into a stockade as they do now. They might have even let it slide, what with the whole ball cancer angle.
soo ... the defense of lance is simply that other people are flawed? ... mind boggling ... this guy ruined people's lives ... and in the face of all that is in front of him does not have the integrity to tell the truth ... instead lance continues to do what lance does to make people despise him ... lie and act self-serving ...
But I promise you, if he had overseen such a gigantic cheating operation and been NICE about it, people wouldn't want him thrown into a stockade as they do now. They might have even let it slide, what with the whole ball cancer angle.
no they wouldnt have. Mcgwire wasnt mean about it, and the guys now a pariah.
Its the same as torture and all that other stuff. yes, you punish and go after the agents who torture detainees, but you also, go after the people who ordered it, the higher ups who knew about it and did nothing.
For me, thats way more disturbing. UCI officials knew not only was lance doping, but everyone else, and they did nothing.
You cant clean up cycling without cleaning house. Period
no they wouldnt have. Mcgwire wasnt mean about it, and the guys now a pariah.
Its the same as torture and all that other stuff. yes, you punish and go after the agents who torture detainees, but you also, go after the people who ordered it, the higher ups who knew about it and did nothing.
For me, thats way more disturbing. UCI officials knew not only was lance doping, but everyone else, and they did nothing.
You cant clean up cycling without cleaning house. Period
no one is arguing that ... if you read my comments - i have been the most vocal of the lack of accountability by the UCI and that both current and ex-presidents need to go ... in fact, that was the only thing i wanted from lance ... but he covered for them just like they have for him ...
the problem with the UCI is you can not have a mandate of growing the sport and then regulating it as well ... they work counter to each other in many ways ...
no one is excusing any of the other players in this story ... but at the end of the day ... lance is the head of this snake ... not the UCI ... the co-conspirators extends well beyond lance and the UCI ... it includes Nike, Oakley and politicians even ... and at the centre of it is lance ...
but outside of all that ... yes, every hero has their flaws but this guy was an asshole ... a guy most of us would never want as a friend ... a guy who would sue his former best friends for telling the truth ... this guy is not a hero ... he's only a hero in myth ... a hero based on lies and fraud ... a hero has integrity - lance has none ...
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1. come clean and open himself to criminal prosecution and sell out some of the people/organizations that aided him in his fraud ... essentially have the house of cards crumble entirely where more of his asshole behaviour will be exposed ... but have his lifetime ban reduced to 8 years ... and the ability to race again ...
or
2. continue to lie and not come clean ... do not race again ...
the UCI has disbanded it's independent commission because their commission cried fraud because the UCI was withholding info ... they are now apparently going to work with wada to start a truth and reconciliation commission which lance said he would be part of ... i don't see it happening but who knows ...
no they wouldnt have. Mcgwire wasnt mean about it, and the guys now a pariah.
Its the same as torture and all that other stuff. yes, you punish and go after the agents who torture detainees, but you also, go after the people who ordered it, the higher ups who knew about it and did nothing.
For me, thats way more disturbing. UCI officials knew not only was lance doping, but everyone else, and they did nothing.
You cant clean up cycling without cleaning house. Period
no one is arguing that ... if you read my comments - i have been the most vocal of the lack of accountability by the UCI and that both current and ex-presidents need to go ... in fact, that was the only thing i wanted from lance ... but he covered for them just like they have for him ...
the problem with the UCI is you can not have a mandate of growing the sport and then regulating it as well ... they work counter to each other in many ways ...
no one is excusing any of the other players in this story ... but at the end of the day ... lance is the head of this snake ... not the UCI ... the co-conspirators extends well beyond lance and the UCI ... it includes Nike, Oakley and politicians even ... and at the centre of it is lance ...
but outside of all that ... yes, every hero has their flaws but this guy was an asshole ... a guy most of us would never want as a friend ... a guy who would sue his former best friends for telling the truth ... this guy is not a hero ... he's only a hero in myth ... a hero based on lies and fraud ... a hero has integrity - lance has none ...
I disagree about the players being the story, or at least the main story. As with the MLB, the UCI and other major officials knew about what was going on. They could have exposed not only lance, but also the zillion other cyclists who were doping and cheating. What they did was just as much a criminal act as anything Lance did. And it involves literally the entire cycling world, the cyclists themselves, team managers, doctors, UCI officials and on and on. Lance is 1 piece of an enormous puzzle.
Same with the MLB, Bonds and Mcgwire and Canseco doped. But, they were allowed to do so, largely because of Selig and other high level officials in baseball, who knew they were doping and said and did nothing.
In both cases, the reason the higher level people never said anything was because the sport had gone from the dumps, to being the biggest sport in the world and generating massive amounts of income, not only for the cyclists, but also those higher level officials.
Had either sport shown a modicum of ethical or moral fiber in this, we wouldnt be discussing this. Drug testing should have been stronger and harder to fake out. There should be monitors to make sure UCI and whoever does testing in baseball actually does their job. There should be complete transparency in both sports. And those who run the sports should feel its their duty to weed out and punish the cheaters and dopers, period.
What seems to have been MLB and cycling's problem was that they let the cheating an doping grow so huge, so rampant, that everyone was doing it. They refused to punish the dopers. And suddenly the biggest names in both sports were setting records and cheating at the same time, all with the expressed permission of MLB and cycling.
Cycling had a major dilemma, they became this worldwide phenomenon because of lance, raked in millions tha they hadnt when he wasnt racing. So they could either tell what they knew": that lance and 80 percent of the peloton was doping and lose respect, get bad press, and lose millions, or they could sweep it under the rug and continue the charade. Lance wasnt the only guy who made money during these years.
MLB faced the same thing. Post strike, baseball was at a low point. Then suddenly you had the entire nation captivated by 2 home run sluggers who it seemed, both may very well break Maris's home run record. Millions of money was made, baseball was on the front page, even non sports fans knew who Mcgwire and Sosa were. MLB knew they were doping and everyone else was as well. So they had a choice. Either expose to the world that the entire sport was doping, or continue the charade
Both organizations made the same decision, and it was wrong, and criminal.
Its like with Abu Gharib. Yes, the low level soldiers and guards who are in those pictures putting dog collars on inmates deserved punishment and jail time. But, thats only half the story. The other major part is the higher level officials who knew this was going on and did nothing and said nothing. And to this day, no higher ups have been punished.
In the 60 minutes update the other day, it is said that the testimony from his teammates, the 11 teammates in the reasoned decision, were as I said, all 2012 statements. Hamilton came out the year before, but most of the guys, his teammates had lied just as long.
Secondly, 60 minutes also makes clear, they testified, because they had to. they were forced to by subpeona. These werent cases of 11 teammates deciding to clean up cycling because they felt it was the right thing to do. They had to speak. Subpeonas force people to testify. thats just the way it is. And its legal policy.
Tygart, the head of USADA, refuses to admit that doping was commonplace in cycling. He refuses to agree that doping was something every other cyclist was doping.
Tygarts other problem, in terms of our discussions on the board, is that he seems to believe the conspiracy to dope only involved one team and one cyclist.
His argument seems to be, yes cycling had a doping problem named lance. The UCI covered up and hid doping: of one cyclist named lance.
Tygart seems completely unwilling to admit what is blindingly obvious to every single person.
tygart is exactly right. USADA should be shut down. its not doing its job. Their job isnt to g after one cyclist and then wipe their hands and go "sports all clean now, we did our job". Their job is to make sure cycling is clean and that dopers and cheaters, all dopers and cheater are exposed and not allowed to compete. Further USADAs job as exposers of cheating is also to speak out
USADA sure as hell wasnt doing squat in 2000-2005. Nor has it done anything since.
They've staked their claim on this idea, this false idea, that when lance armstrong is fully exposed, and fined, jailed, stripped of all his money, that then the sport will be clean and can breathe easy.
Its like with Abu Gharib. Yes, the low level soldiers and guards who are in those pictures putting dog collars on inmates deserved punishment and jail time. But, thats only half the story. The other major part is the higher level officials who knew this was going on and did nothing and said nothing. And to this day, no higher ups have been punished.
I don't know why you keep making these odd comparisons between sport and war. sport is a game. it's not comparable to real life sacrifice.
this thread is about lance doping. is there a much bigger problem in pro sports beyond the scope of one high profile case? of course there is. no one disputes that. if the UCI was putting Lance up to doing what he did by threatening means, fine, that would be another issue. NO ONE FORCED LANCE TO ACT THE WAY HE DID. No one forced McGuire or Sosa or Bonds or anyone else to do what they did. But Lance chose to do what he did, and in the context of this thread, that makes him GUILTY of being an asshole.
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Its like with Abu Gharib. Yes, the low level soldiers and guards who are in those pictures putting dog collars on inmates deserved punishment and jail time. But, thats only half the story. The other major part is the higher level officials who knew this was going on and did nothing and said nothing. And to this day, no higher ups have been punished.
I don't know why you keep making these odd comparisons between sport and war. sport is a game. it's not comparable to real life sacrifice.
this thread is about lance doping. is there a much bigger problem in pro sports beyond the scope of one high profile case? of course there is. no one disputes that. if the UCI was putting Lance up to doing what he did by threatening means, fine, that would be another issue. NO ONE FORCED LANCE TO ACT THE WAY HE DID. No one forced McGuire or Sosa or Bonds or anyone else to do what they did. But Lance chose to do what he did, and in the context of this thread, that makes him GUILTY of being an asshole.
I just think its common sense. One rider and one slugger didnt dope. it was everybody. and the cover up involved everyone.
Im interested in cleaning up sports. I was a fan of Mcgwire, and was a fan of Lance. I know what its like to put your faith in someone and be disappointed like that. I also know the truth of what went on. And it wasnt just one person. never was.
UCI is as much a criminal organization as Lance's doping program was. For one, Lance doping program included only his team. The UCI and others allowed the doping of 80 percent of the total peloton, other teams and such. That to me is way worse.
This didnt just happen in isolation. This wasnt just one rogue cyclist who ran some Omerta organization. This involved hundreds of riders, and many folks who's sports uniform was a suit and tie.
If you arent for dealing with this issue in a wide manner, punishing EVERYONE involved, riders, officials, managers, you arent for cleaning up the sport. You just arent.
As for sports not being equivilant to war, heres a quote from Orwell:
"Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealousy, boastfulness, disregard of all rules and sadistic pleasure in witnessing violence. In other words, it is war minus the shooting. "
The equivilancy with war also is valid because only low level people get punished. Yes that soldier who shot up that village in Iraq should be in prison, but what about his superiors and the higher ups who allow such things to happen?
Anyone who thinks this is a case of one cyclist just flat out isnt understanding the issue
I just think its common sense. One rider and one slugger didnt dope. it was everybody. and the cover up involved everyone.
Im interested in cleaning up sports. I was a fan of Mcgwire, and was a fan of Lance. I know what its like to put your faith in someone and be disappointed like that. I also know the truth of what went on. And it wasnt just one person. never was.
UCI is as much a criminal organization as Lance's doping program was. For one, Lance doping program included only his team. The UCI and others allowed the doping of 80 percent of the total peloton, other teams and such. That to me is way worse.
This didnt just happen in isolation. This wasnt just one rogue cyclist who ran some Omerta organization. This involved hundreds of riders, and many folks who's sports uniform was a suit and tie.
If you arent for dealing with this issue in a wide manner, punishing EVERYONE involved, riders, officials, managers, you arent for cleaning up the sport. You just arent.
As for sports not being equivilant to war, heres a quote from Orwell:
"Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealousy, boastfulness, disregard of all rules and sadistic pleasure in witnessing violence. In other words, it is war minus the shooting. "
The equivilancy with war also is valid because only low level people get punished. Yes that soldier who shot up that village in Iraq should be in prison, but what about his superiors and the higher ups who allow such things to happen?
Anyone who thinks this is a case of one cyclist just flat out isnt understanding the issue
you aren't listening. no one thinks this is a case of one cyclist. we just happen to be talking about him in this thread, because of the sheer impact this guy has had on the sport, previously in a positive way, so he is also heavily responsible for its downfall.
equating someone who plays a game for a living with someone who puts their life on the line for their country is a revolting suggestion.
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I just think its common sense. One rider and one slugger didnt dope. it was everybody. and the cover up involved everyone.
Im interested in cleaning up sports. I was a fan of Mcgwire, and was a fan of Lance. I know what its like to put your faith in someone and be disappointed like that. I also know the truth of what went on. And it wasnt just one person. never was.
UCI is as much a criminal organization as Lance's doping program was. For one, Lance doping program included only his team. The UCI and others allowed the doping of 80 percent of the total peloton, other teams and such. That to me is way worse.
This didnt just happen in isolation. This wasnt just one rogue cyclist who ran some Omerta organization. This involved hundreds of riders, and many folks who's sports uniform was a suit and tie.
If you arent for dealing with this issue in a wide manner, punishing EVERYONE involved, riders, officials, managers, you arent for cleaning up the sport. You just arent.
As for sports not being equivilant to war, heres a quote from Orwell:
"Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealousy, boastfulness, disregard of all rules and sadistic pleasure in witnessing violence. In other words, it is war minus the shooting. "
The equivilancy with war also is valid because only low level people get punished. Yes that soldier who shot up that village in Iraq should be in prison, but what about his superiors and the higher ups who allow such things to happen?
Anyone who thinks this is a case of one cyclist just flat out isnt understanding the issue
you aren't listening. no one thinks this is a case of one cyclist. we just happen to be talking about him in this thread, because of the sheer impact this guy has had on the sport, previously in a positive way, so he is also heavily responsible for its downfall.
equating someone who plays a game for a living with someone who puts their life on the line for their country is a revolting suggestion.
This thread involves many things though. Because it wasnt just one cyclist or team that doped, and because it involves UCI officials and other higher ups covering up the doping, theres really no way to focus just on one cyclist. If you are, you arent looking at the full picture.
Plus the thread has been answered. Theres no longer a question mark at the end of the thread title. We know he doped.
The next step should be to completely clean house. And thats done by looking at doping and cheating in cycling in a real and clear manner. You look at everything that occured and you clean house. You punish, band and fine those who doped and covered it up, and you create a new code of conduct for the sport, new rules, stricter drug tests, flat out rules like: you are caught doping you are banned for life etc... You find out how the dopers eluded the tests and you plug up the holes and you make the tests harder to fake.
Theres no other way to do this. You cant clean up cycling without dealing with the other stuff. Its NOT done by denying the sport has a major cheating problem, and suggesting that there was one cheat and one bad team.
The problems of cycling go way beyond a guy named Lance Armstrong. And thats sad for the sport, and for fans. But until people deal with this in a real manner, the sport wont be clean.
As I said, criminal charges should be filed against any and all persons who knew about ANY doping whether it involved doping on US Postal, or any other team or cyclist and willingly covered it up.
1. yes, the testimony was given this past year to USADA by most of the witnesses but that doesn't mean they were lying the entire time ... again - i ask you ... show me where any of those riders lied about their doping since 2005 with the exception of michael barry ... jonathan vaughters was part of lance's team ... everyone knew he doped ... he broke free and formed a new team with the mandate to fight doping and clean cycling ... with much of the riders who were part of the reasoned decision ... and you want to say they are the same as lance who sued people who were telling the truth ...
2. the UCI was corrupt - we've acknowledged that but again - you continue to ignore the aspects of lance that make him very unlikeable and the WORST of role models
3. lance was a big asshole and still is ... you're only response to that is that all heroes have flaws ... please ... this guy has done things and continues to do things that are despicable and none of it is the fact he doped
lance is the anti-hero because:
* he ruined people's lives (cyclists who wanted to race clean)
* he sued his friends (the andreu's were at his bedside when he had cancer and he sued them for telling the truth)
* he sued people who had very little money and called them despicable names (see emma o'reilly)
* he exploited his cancer foundation to put money into his own bank account (read up on livestrong.org and livestrong.com)
* he sold a myth based on fraud and deceit to build his brand up so he can continue to profit
* he is STILL lying and serving his own best interests
* he even admits to being a massive prick
* faced with an opportunity to do what's in the best interests of the sport that gave so much to him - he did what bonds, mcgwire and clemens all did ... lie ... and continue to show he lacks any integrity whatsoever ...
you can continue to try and rationalize your faith in him ... and really - part of me finds it commendable that one can stick and be so loyal to someone but at the same time ... it's too bad it wasn't for a person who was not such an asshole ...
I just think its common sense. One rider and one slugger didnt dope. it was everybody. and the cover up involved everyone.
Im interested in cleaning up sports. I was a fan of Mcgwire, and was a fan of Lance. I know what its like to put your faith in someone and be disappointed like that. I also know the truth of what went on. And it wasnt just one person. never was.
UCI is as much a criminal organization as Lance's doping program was. For one, Lance doping program included only his team. The UCI and others allowed the doping of 80 percent of the total peloton, other teams and such. That to me is way worse.
This didnt just happen in isolation. This wasnt just one rogue cyclist who ran some Omerta organization. This involved hundreds of riders, and many folks who's sports uniform was a suit and tie.
If you arent for dealing with this issue in a wide manner, punishing EVERYONE involved, riders, officials, managers, you arent for cleaning up the sport. You just arent.
As for sports not being equivilant to war, heres a quote from Orwell:
"Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealousy, boastfulness, disregard of all rules and sadistic pleasure in witnessing violence. In other words, it is war minus the shooting. "
The equivilancy with war also is valid because only low level people get punished. Yes that soldier who shot up that village in Iraq should be in prison, but what about his superiors and the higher ups who allow such things to happen?
Anyone who thinks this is a case of one cyclist just flat out isnt understanding the issue
you aren't listening. no one thinks this is a case of one cyclist. we just happen to be talking about him in this thread, because of the sheer impact this guy has had on the sport, previously in a positive way, so he is also heavily responsible for its downfall.
equating someone who plays a game for a living with someone who puts their life on the line for their country is a revolting suggestion.
This thread involves many things though. Because it wasnt just one cyclist or team that doped, and because it involves UCI officials and other higher ups covering up the doping, theres really no way to focus just on one cyclist. If you are, you arent looking at the full picture.
Plus the thread has been answered. Theres no longer a question mark at the end of the thread title. We know he doped.
The next step should be to completely clean house. And thats done by looking at doping and cheating in cycling in a real and clear manner. You look at everything that occured and you clean house. You punish, band and fine those who doped and covered it up, and you create a new code of conduct for the sport, new rules, stricter drug tests, flat out rules like: you are caught doping you are banned for life etc... You find out how the dopers eluded the tests and you plug up the holes and you make the tests harder to fake.
Theres no other way to do this. You cant clean up cycling without dealing with the other stuff. Its NOT done by denying the sport has a major cheating problem, and suggesting that there was one cheat and one bad team.
The problems of cycling go way beyond a guy named Lance Armstrong. And thats sad for the sport, and for fans. But until people deal with this in a real manner, the sport wont be clean.
As I said, criminal charges should be filed against any and all persons who knew about ANY doping whether it involved doping on US Postal, or any other team or cyclist and willingly covered it up.
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goldrush
everybody knows this is nowhere Posts: 7,368
JJ Abrams has confirmed that he is in talks with Bradley Cooper to star in his upcoming Lance Armstrong biopic, reports Entertainment Tonight.
The Star Trek director told Entertainment Tonight at the Producers Guild Awards: "[Cooper] sent me an email and we've been talking."
Cooper has already said that he's interested in playing the disgraced cyclist telling the BBC: "I remember thinking, that would be a great character, I'd love to play that character. I would love to do something, I think he's pretty fascinating."
Paramount Pictures and JJ Abrams' production company Bad Robot bought the rights to Cycle of Lies: The Fall of Lance Armstrong, a book proposal by New York Times reporter Juliet Macur and are currently working on a script. The book covers Armstrong's struggle with cancer, years of doping allegations and the ensuing lawsuits.
After years of denials Lance Armstrong publicly admitted to doping during all seven of his Tour de France wins on the Opera Winfrey show at the beginning of this year.
Bradley Cooper has been nominated for an Oscar for Best Actor for his performance in Silver Linings Playbook and JJ Abrams has also just signed up to direct Disney’s Star Wars: Episode VII. His latest film Star Trek Into Darkness will be released in the UK on May 17.
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ha ha, i saw that, i read a bit but its like an endless circular argument.
at this point all parties perhaps need to realise they are not even listening to each other, the points have been made, and no one has changed their mind.
agree to disagree.
Lance is a naughty boy, a cheat who got rich beyond his dreams through being unethical in a dull sport that no one watches, made that sport ultimately more popular....got caught with his pants down, and looked silly on telly.
A lot of people would have done the same......except for his behaviour afterwards - which was frankly appalling
sports popularity is misleading ... i think most people would not know that cricket is the second most popular sport behind football (soccer) ... cycling is more popular than one thinks ... it's especially in huge in europe ...
sports popularity is misleading ... i think most people would not know that cricket is the second most popular sport behind football (soccer) ... cycling is more popular than one thinks ... it's especially in huge in europe ...
exactly. the biggest sports in the world are NOT the ones that are most popular in the US and Canada.
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sports popularity is misleading ... i think most people would not know that cricket is the second most popular sport behind football (soccer) ... cycling is more popular than one thinks ... it's especially in huge in europe ...
exactly. the biggest sports in the world are NOT the ones that are most popular in the US and Canada.
Ah im only taking the piss guys, and do Note im in the UK. I dont know anyone here who watches people bike up and down hills, but im aware they do.
Yet - i would say the sports popularity was boosted massively by having Lance be part of it.
sports popularity is misleading ... i think most people would not know that cricket is the second most popular sport behind football (soccer) ... cycling is more popular than one thinks ... it's especially in huge in europe ...
exactly. the biggest sports in the world are NOT the ones that are most popular in the US and Canada.
Ah im only taking the piss guys, and do Note im in the UK. I dont know anyone here who watches people bike up and down hills, but im aware they do.
Yet - i would say the sports popularity was boosted massively by having Lance be part of it.
kinda like american baseball. I only watched when McGuire and Sosa were chasing the record. Other than that, you even see people in the stands falling asleep, never mind watching it at home on a comfy couch.
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kinda like american baseball. I only watched when McGuire and Sosa were chasing the record. Other than that, you even see people in the stands falling asleep, never mind watching it at home on a comfy couch.
you are so wrong about that, hugh freaking dillion :nono: :fp:
If I had known then what I know now...
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Comments
I just think we need to look at humans as humans. In all their glory and their faults. I find Livestrong and all the work they've done and Lance has done in that arena, to be amazing. Livestrong is a fantastic organization. I love the website, and think what they do is helpful, important, and I dont regret wearing the yellow bracelet or owning a Livestrong t-shirt. I would and will buy more merch from them. I support what they do. I support their mission. I think cancer is awful and a cure should be found, and that we need to support people who have been diagnosed with it. Lance didnt have to create the organization, nor did he have to do activist work on behalf of it. He did do that though. I read his tweets for years prior, and they almost always involved mentioning some benefit, Livestrong, shouting out a cancer survivor or wishing someone prayers and love who had just been diagnosed.
Based on all this, I do believe Lance is a good guy.
I also think his case was unique in large part because of the cancer. Bonds let people down, but I didnt have a personal connection with the guy. He didnt mean anything to me. I was emotionally and personally invested in the 7 tour wins and the Lance story. Admitting he lied had obvious consequences that we all saw in the last week. Anyone, Lance included, knew that would happen. He said as much in that one video shown on Oprah, he knew what exposure of the lie would mean. And it extended beyond money and fame.
It would be pretty scary to admit your life the last 15 years was a lie, that you were an imposter. And to let millions of cancer survivors down as a result. Thats a heavy burden. This all played a part in this story.
livestrong is an organization built around the guy's cause and his name. of course it's a great organization, but sending a shout out tweet does not a good guy make.
I'm judging Lance on Lance. I'm not judging him compared to anyone else, which is what should be done. I don't judge anyone based on anything but their own merits and shortfalls. comparing one person to another does a disservice to both.
maybe Lance is a great dad. maybe he's a great friend, but BASED ON ALL THAT HE DID TO OTHERS THAT I KNOW OF, I don't think he's a good person. I think he has the potential to be, given what he's (hopefully) learned as a result of all this, but we won't know that for a long time.
And his admission on Oprah wasn't to come clean. It was to help his cause in getting back into competing professionally. Again, self serving.
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We have no idea whats going on in Lances head. You or I have no idea why he lied for 16 years and continued to lie, or also why he admitted it the other week.
Also, cheating and lying and suing people also doesnt make someone a bad person, or at least an all bad person. Its one side of him. We dont know what he's like with his wife or children or what he was like when he interacted with staff members at Livestrong.
Pandora or whoever was arguing a couple days ago, that his teammates came clean for the good of the sport and because they wanted to help out the sport and because they realized cheating was wrong. And then when Lance was discussed they argued everything he did was based on self serving interests. Thats silly logic and it doesnt hold water.
Lance is a scapegoat. Just like Mcgwire and Bonds are. Punishments should be doled out. Records stripped. Awards taken away. But, for me, the real stunning thing is society as a whole's, lack of dealing with cheating and doping in all sports. Had lance never been on tour, the sport wouldnt have been clean.
The cycling world needs to clean house. And heads need to roll. Officials, and higher ups, UCI heads needs to be fired and gone after in a legal manner to deal with these issues.
I'd like to see cycling clean. Those 7 tours were among my most fondest memories of the last decade. And to know it was a hoax is heartbreaking. But all this stuff is childs play, and to identify it otherwise isnt being truthful.
While Lance is getting the hot seat, all the other more powerful people, who knew about it, did nothing, covered it up, all remain free, and unblemished. Some even still have jobs. Thats wrong from any standpoint.
Im a big believer in justice. And justice in this case isnt solely dependent on Lance.
If the people who allowed cheating to happen and occur and continue, still are ruling the cycling world, how is the sport going to be cleaned up. It isnt.
The head of UCI, and all the other major cycling organizations, those who tested not only Lance, but every other rider, need to be fired, and fined.
Its like baseball. Cleaning up baseball isnt contingent on Bonds or Mcgwire. Its contingent on so much more.
yes, I agree, all should be dealt the same judicial hand. no doubt about it. but I'm not judging lance based on what others did or who let things happen on the admin side. I don't care. All I know is what Lance did. And that to me, makes him a bad person. end of story.
it's laughable for anyone (not you) to suggest his team mates came clean for the good of the sport. they did it for themselves.
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http://deadspin.com/5976386/lance-armst ... ge-asshole
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLwE4CBk4m0
Pearl Jam bootlegs:
http://wegotshit.blogspot.com
no they wouldnt have. Mcgwire wasnt mean about it, and the guys now a pariah.
Its the same as torture and all that other stuff. yes, you punish and go after the agents who torture detainees, but you also, go after the people who ordered it, the higher ups who knew about it and did nothing.
For me, thats way more disturbing. UCI officials knew not only was lance doping, but everyone else, and they did nothing.
You cant clean up cycling without cleaning house. Period
no one is arguing that ... if you read my comments - i have been the most vocal of the lack of accountability by the UCI and that both current and ex-presidents need to go ... in fact, that was the only thing i wanted from lance ... but he covered for them just like they have for him ...
the problem with the UCI is you can not have a mandate of growing the sport and then regulating it as well ... they work counter to each other in many ways ...
no one is excusing any of the other players in this story ... but at the end of the day ... lance is the head of this snake ... not the UCI ... the co-conspirators extends well beyond lance and the UCI ... it includes Nike, Oakley and politicians even ... and at the centre of it is lance ...
but outside of all that ... yes, every hero has their flaws but this guy was an asshole ... a guy most of us would never want as a friend ... a guy who would sue his former best friends for telling the truth ... this guy is not a hero ... he's only a hero in myth ... a hero based on lies and fraud ... a hero has integrity - lance has none ...
http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/01/ ... ing_272886
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it's come down to this for him ...
1. come clean and open himself to criminal prosecution and sell out some of the people/organizations that aided him in his fraud ... essentially have the house of cards crumble entirely where more of his asshole behaviour will be exposed ... but have his lifetime ban reduced to 8 years ... and the ability to race again ...
or
2. continue to lie and not come clean ... do not race again ...
the UCI has disbanded it's independent commission because their commission cried fraud because the UCI was withholding info ... they are now apparently going to work with wada to start a truth and reconciliation commission which lance said he would be part of ... i don't see it happening but who knows ...
I disagree about the players being the story, or at least the main story. As with the MLB, the UCI and other major officials knew about what was going on. They could have exposed not only lance, but also the zillion other cyclists who were doping and cheating. What they did was just as much a criminal act as anything Lance did. And it involves literally the entire cycling world, the cyclists themselves, team managers, doctors, UCI officials and on and on. Lance is 1 piece of an enormous puzzle.
Same with the MLB, Bonds and Mcgwire and Canseco doped. But, they were allowed to do so, largely because of Selig and other high level officials in baseball, who knew they were doping and said and did nothing.
In both cases, the reason the higher level people never said anything was because the sport had gone from the dumps, to being the biggest sport in the world and generating massive amounts of income, not only for the cyclists, but also those higher level officials.
Had either sport shown a modicum of ethical or moral fiber in this, we wouldnt be discussing this. Drug testing should have been stronger and harder to fake out. There should be monitors to make sure UCI and whoever does testing in baseball actually does their job. There should be complete transparency in both sports. And those who run the sports should feel its their duty to weed out and punish the cheaters and dopers, period.
What seems to have been MLB and cycling's problem was that they let the cheating an doping grow so huge, so rampant, that everyone was doing it. They refused to punish the dopers. And suddenly the biggest names in both sports were setting records and cheating at the same time, all with the expressed permission of MLB and cycling.
Cycling had a major dilemma, they became this worldwide phenomenon because of lance, raked in millions tha they hadnt when he wasnt racing. So they could either tell what they knew": that lance and 80 percent of the peloton was doping and lose respect, get bad press, and lose millions, or they could sweep it under the rug and continue the charade. Lance wasnt the only guy who made money during these years.
MLB faced the same thing. Post strike, baseball was at a low point. Then suddenly you had the entire nation captivated by 2 home run sluggers who it seemed, both may very well break Maris's home run record. Millions of money was made, baseball was on the front page, even non sports fans knew who Mcgwire and Sosa were. MLB knew they were doping and everyone else was as well. So they had a choice. Either expose to the world that the entire sport was doping, or continue the charade
Both organizations made the same decision, and it was wrong, and criminal.
Its like with Abu Gharib. Yes, the low level soldiers and guards who are in those pictures putting dog collars on inmates deserved punishment and jail time. But, thats only half the story. The other major part is the higher level officials who knew this was going on and did nothing and said nothing. And to this day, no higher ups have been punished.
Secondly, 60 minutes also makes clear, they testified, because they had to. they were forced to by subpeona. These werent cases of 11 teammates deciding to clean up cycling because they felt it was the right thing to do. They had to speak. Subpeonas force people to testify. thats just the way it is. And its legal policy.
Tygart, the head of USADA, refuses to admit that doping was commonplace in cycling. He refuses to agree that doping was something every other cyclist was doping.
Tygarts other problem, in terms of our discussions on the board, is that he seems to believe the conspiracy to dope only involved one team and one cyclist.
His argument seems to be, yes cycling had a doping problem named lance. The UCI covered up and hid doping: of one cyclist named lance.
Tygart seems completely unwilling to admit what is blindingly obvious to every single person.
USADA sure as hell wasnt doing squat in 2000-2005. Nor has it done anything since.
They've staked their claim on this idea, this false idea, that when lance armstrong is fully exposed, and fined, jailed, stripped of all his money, that then the sport will be clean and can breathe easy.
Thats just not the case.
I don't know why you keep making these odd comparisons between sport and war. sport is a game. it's not comparable to real life sacrifice.
this thread is about lance doping. is there a much bigger problem in pro sports beyond the scope of one high profile case? of course there is. no one disputes that. if the UCI was putting Lance up to doing what he did by threatening means, fine, that would be another issue. NO ONE FORCED LANCE TO ACT THE WAY HE DID. No one forced McGuire or Sosa or Bonds or anyone else to do what they did. But Lance chose to do what he did, and in the context of this thread, that makes him GUILTY of being an asshole.
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I just think its common sense. One rider and one slugger didnt dope. it was everybody. and the cover up involved everyone.
Im interested in cleaning up sports. I was a fan of Mcgwire, and was a fan of Lance. I know what its like to put your faith in someone and be disappointed like that. I also know the truth of what went on. And it wasnt just one person. never was.
UCI is as much a criminal organization as Lance's doping program was. For one, Lance doping program included only his team. The UCI and others allowed the doping of 80 percent of the total peloton, other teams and such. That to me is way worse.
This didnt just happen in isolation. This wasnt just one rogue cyclist who ran some Omerta organization. This involved hundreds of riders, and many folks who's sports uniform was a suit and tie.
If you arent for dealing with this issue in a wide manner, punishing EVERYONE involved, riders, officials, managers, you arent for cleaning up the sport. You just arent.
As for sports not being equivilant to war, heres a quote from Orwell:
"Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealousy, boastfulness, disregard of all rules and sadistic pleasure in witnessing violence. In other words, it is war minus the shooting. "
The equivilancy with war also is valid because only low level people get punished. Yes that soldier who shot up that village in Iraq should be in prison, but what about his superiors and the higher ups who allow such things to happen?
Anyone who thinks this is a case of one cyclist just flat out isnt understanding the issue
you aren't listening. no one thinks this is a case of one cyclist. we just happen to be talking about him in this thread, because of the sheer impact this guy has had on the sport, previously in a positive way, so he is also heavily responsible for its downfall.
equating someone who plays a game for a living with someone who puts their life on the line for their country is a revolting suggestion.
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This thread involves many things though. Because it wasnt just one cyclist or team that doped, and because it involves UCI officials and other higher ups covering up the doping, theres really no way to focus just on one cyclist. If you are, you arent looking at the full picture.
Plus the thread has been answered. Theres no longer a question mark at the end of the thread title. We know he doped.
The next step should be to completely clean house. And thats done by looking at doping and cheating in cycling in a real and clear manner. You look at everything that occured and you clean house. You punish, band and fine those who doped and covered it up, and you create a new code of conduct for the sport, new rules, stricter drug tests, flat out rules like: you are caught doping you are banned for life etc... You find out how the dopers eluded the tests and you plug up the holes and you make the tests harder to fake.
Theres no other way to do this. You cant clean up cycling without dealing with the other stuff. Its NOT done by denying the sport has a major cheating problem, and suggesting that there was one cheat and one bad team.
The problems of cycling go way beyond a guy named Lance Armstrong. And thats sad for the sport, and for fans. But until people deal with this in a real manner, the sport wont be clean.
As I said, criminal charges should be filed against any and all persons who knew about ANY doping whether it involved doping on US Postal, or any other team or cyclist and willingly covered it up.
2. the UCI was corrupt - we've acknowledged that but again - you continue to ignore the aspects of lance that make him very unlikeable and the WORST of role models
3. lance was a big asshole and still is ... you're only response to that is that all heroes have flaws ... please ... this guy has done things and continues to do things that are despicable and none of it is the fact he doped
lance is the anti-hero because:
* he ruined people's lives (cyclists who wanted to race clean)
* he sued his friends (the andreu's were at his bedside when he had cancer and he sued them for telling the truth)
* he sued people who had very little money and called them despicable names (see emma o'reilly)
* he exploited his cancer foundation to put money into his own bank account (read up on livestrong.org and livestrong.com)
* he sold a myth based on fraud and deceit to build his brand up so he can continue to profit
* he is STILL lying and serving his own best interests
* he even admits to being a massive prick
* faced with an opportunity to do what's in the best interests of the sport that gave so much to him - he did what bonds, mcgwire and clemens all did ... lie ... and continue to show he lacks any integrity whatsoever ...
you can continue to try and rationalize your faith in him ... and really - part of me finds it commendable that one can stick and be so loyal to someone but at the same time ... it's too bad it wasn't for a person who was not such an asshole ...
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(Jeff Tweedy, Sydney 2007)
“Put yer good money on the sunrise”
(Tim Rogers)
imagine if he was involved in a popular sport?
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music has written about 2/3 of them
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ha ha, i saw that, i read a bit but its like an endless circular argument.
at this point all parties perhaps need to realise they are not even listening to each other, the points have been made, and no one has changed their mind.
agree to disagree.
Lance is a naughty boy, a cheat who got rich beyond his dreams through being unethical in a dull sport that no one watches, made that sport ultimately more popular....got caught with his pants down, and looked silly on telly.
A lot of people would have done the same......except for his behaviour afterwards - which was frankly appalling
exactly. the biggest sports in the world are NOT the ones that are most popular in the US and Canada.
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Ah im only taking the piss guys, and do Note im in the UK. I dont know anyone here who watches people bike up and down hills, but im aware they do.
Yet - i would say the sports popularity was boosted massively by having Lance be part of it.
kinda like american baseball. I only watched when McGuire and Sosa were chasing the record. Other than that, you even see people in the stands falling asleep, never mind watching it at home on a comfy couch.
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you are so wrong about that, hugh freaking dillion :nono: :fp:
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