yes and stil no word from trump or palin or bachmann. and people like huckabee, pawlenty, and romney are downplaying obama's role in this....figures as much. obama only gave the order to kill bin laden. i never thought he had it in him. i am still surprised to see cheney and bush give obama credit in this.
The detainees provided U.S. officials the courier's nickname, and identified him as protégé of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and a trusted assistant of Abu Faraj al Libbi, once Al Qaeda's third highest ranking official. (He was captured in 2005).
The president finally gave the order for the operation to pursue bin Laden on the morning of April 29 - just before he departed for Alabama to visit areas ravaged by last week's tornadoes that tore through the southern U.S., a senior administration official said.
Early Sunday morning in Pakistan, the strike began.
By 1 pm in Washington, top advisers had gathered at the White House. Around 2 pm, Obama huddled with them to review final preparations for the operation. He returned to Situation Room at 3:32 pm for another update, and by 3:50 he was given word that bin Laden was "tentatively identified" as among those killed in the operation. At 7 pm, Obama was told it was a "high probability" that it was, indeed, bin Laden.
The entire operation took just 40-minutes and involved a small U.S. team, a senior administration official said.
In addition to bin Laden, four others on the compound - an adult son of Bin Laden and two of bin Laden's couriers - were killed in the strike on the compound in an affluent suburb about 35 miles outside of Islamabad. A woman, who an administration official said was used as a human shield, was also killed in the operation.
Administration officials offered scant details about how Bin Laden conducted himself in his final moments, only saying that he was felled in a firefight.
No Americans were killed in the operation, which was kept secret from the Pakistani government until after it was completed. But an administration official said that a helicopter was lost in the operation.
I know--this is what my local newspaper said this morning, too. And I'm not 'saying' that it was a week ago, as if I KNOW something---it was just reported by many news outlets that it was a week ago, and now it has changed to Friday. It is not so hard for me to believe that it happened a week ago, or 2 days ago, or whatever. Either way, it is not at all farfetched that the gov would wait a minute to announce it.
Hey Gimme, i agree with everything you said except the "was he a threat to you?no" quote. mass murderous are a threat to everyone. I can understand why some people celebrate this person death. it might not be for you but if i was a family member of a person who dies in 911 i would be happy that the mastermind got what he deserved.
actually, khalid sheikh muhammad was the mastermind behind 9/11. obl financed it.
he was a mass murderer, but he was no threat to me or my way of life. my own federal government is a bigger threat to my way of life than osama ever was.
i never ever felt threatened by obl, so he was not a threat to me. sure i am angry at him for what he did, but i would have rather him had to face the families of the victims in a court of law.
i think if you talked to families of 911 they would say he was a threat to to them and also their way of life. I would have loved for OBL tried in court but lets be realistic, that was never going to happen.
All that refining didn't lead to much modesty huh?
That said, I am happy that he is gone. I would prefer they capture him for sure, but I am willing to bet he wouldn't let that happen anyhow.
Am I gonna go around celebrating? Nope. That seems weird. All the stuff on TV with people gathering in the streets (thankfully it didn't look like many) was strange. Seemed like they just found their next reason to drink and act stupid. I would prefer we didn't gather in the streets to celebrate death the way some other cultures do. But I am happy that he is no longer breathing. But someone will take his place.
yes and stil no word from trump or palin or bachmann. and people like huckabee, pawlenty, and romney are downplaying obama's role in this....figures as much. obama only gave the order to kill bin laden. i never thought he had it in him. htti am still surprised to see cheney and bush give obama credit in this.
You're only surprised because of your characterization of the men. Bush has been nothing but honorable toward Obama since he left office. This is more a reflection of you than of him.
And who cares who gives credit to who? Can't we be above that political crap for 1 day?
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
0
unsung
I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
was he a threat to you? no. that is the difference between you and i. i don't celebrate anybody's death. maybe i am a little too refined for that.
I'm a citizen of the United States. He was a threat to me. I don't believe he had specific plans to take Jason P out (we will have to wait to confirm this once the details shake out), but he didn't specifically pick out each individual that was murdered in his attacks. As long as he was alive, he had the capacity to plan and lead and inspire more random terrorist attacks.
Maybe I'm not as refined. When I heard the news on the radio while driving to work, my first reaction wasn't to think, "man, another lost life, so sad ...", rather it was a Tiger Woods fist pump and a big smile on my face. Call it unrefined, but I still remember the pain of 9/11 and this man deserves no pity whatsoever.
Be Excellent To Each Other
Party On, Dudes!
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,408
Sure is a lot of cheering and rah rah going on in light of this news. Should'nt this be a time of somber reflection on the state of the world? Are we really out of the woods interms of unrest around the world because one man is dead? And are we not responsible for some of the killing and war going on around the world? Do we really suspend the right to a trial for anyone- and I mean anyone? The celebration going on will end as quickly as it began when people realize the world is still in a shit storm of trouble.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
i never thought that we would get him. i would have liked to have seen him taken alive so that he could face justice in an american courtroom where he would have to face the relatives of the people he killed.
obama ordered this mission, so i am wondering if he will get the credit for this, and how long will it be before fox news downplays this accomplishment and talks about his birth certificate again...
and i also agree with the posters who said this does not change anything and the war on terror is not over. i was not scared of bin laden because we knew about him. it is his successor that i am worried about.
It is interesting to think what would've happened had he been taken alive.
I think a lot of the reason bin laden was a successful terrorist is that he had (inherited) so much money.
Is there any word on what happens to his assets? did he have any at the time of his death? Are his sons as wealth as he was and will they follow in his footsteps?
Maybe I'm not as refined. When I heard the news on the radio while driving to work, my first reaction wasn't to think, "man, another lost life, so sad ...", rather it was a Tiger Woods fist pump and a big smile on my face. Call it unrefined, but I still remember the pain of 9/11 and this man deserves no pity whatsoever.
Yet the time to have taken him out was 10 years ago. It took the great and powerful U.S. 10 YEARS to catch him? I'm not celebrating because it should have been dealt with long ago. Not now. He should have been captured like Saddam had been, but before him.
AND I'm still waiting for proof before I believed it even happened.
here is video from inside the compound after the firefight. i am not sure if it is legit or not, but whether or not this is actually where bin laden was killed there are pools with a lot of blood..
It's a video of a messy place with blood in some areas. Who's blood? Osama? Does blood on the carpet prove he is dead? Why no footage released of dead body?
Personally, I think he is dead as this would be a too elaborate hoax to sustain but why all this 'mystery'? All these questions, some put forth by members on this thread? Why not just answer - the US are usually very quick in releasing videos, photos, etc. showing them hitting targets, etc. Should do the same here.
Maybe I'm not as refined. When I heard the news on the radio while driving to work, my first reaction wasn't to think, "man, another lost life, so sad ...", rather it was a Tiger Woods fist pump and a big smile on my face. Call it unrefined, but I still remember the pain of 9/11 and this man deserves no pity whatsoever.
Yet the time to have taken him out was 10 years ago. It took the great and powerful U.S. 10 YEARS to catch him? I'm not celebrating because it should have been dealt with long ago. Not now. He should have been captured like Saddam had been, but before him.
AND I'm still waiting for proof before I believed it even happened.
so you are upset that he wasn't caught earlier instead of being happy he was caught at all?
Maybe I'm not as refined. When I heard the news on the radio while driving to work, my first reaction wasn't to think, "man, another lost life, so sad ...", rather it was a Tiger Woods fist pump and a big smile on my face. Call it unrefined, but I still remember the pain of 9/11 and this man deserves no pity whatsoever.
Yet the time to have taken him out was 10 years ago. It took the great and powerful U.S. 10 YEARS to catch him? I'm not celebrating because it should have been dealt with long ago. Not now. He should have been captured like Saddam had been, but before him.
AND I'm still waiting for proof before I believed it even happened.
so you are upset that he wasn't caught earlier instead of being happy he was caught at all?
also what proof would you require?
I'm not upset about him not being caught earlier, BUT it really should have been done shortly after 9/11 but we know that Bush had his sights on Iraq instead. This was long overdue.
Any proof would suffice, but DNA would probably be the best, since you can skew photos and video. Capturing him would certainly provide more proof than this death certainly can.
For those requiring proof, I'm sure the evidence will come out at some point. I'm far from Obama's biggest fan, but I doubt they are faking this. Skepticism is a good quality to have, but I believe that faking this would be an incredible political mistake that no first-term President would ever risk. To me, that's like saying the Bush administration planned and carried out 9/11. Possible? Sure. Plausible? Not unless you believe everything Jesse Ventura tells you and ignore the same evidence he ignores.
What I found interesting about this is that government sources have already told the media that the initial tip that led to finding him came back in 2007 in Guantanamo. It took years of following that lead to the next, and that one to the next, and so on and so on, but I'd say it provides some sort of vindication for the people who thought that Guantanamo would yield results in this effort. Don't mistake this for me saying that Bush deserves the credit for this or that Obama doesn't deserve any credit. To me, it would be ridiculous to make either of those claims, but it's fair to say that each President played a role in the events leading to this day. How much credit you think either man deserves is up to you--I have no idea, but I think there was some groundwork laid from some unpopular decisions (depending on your views). Whatever the case may be, it was ultimately Obama who had to give the order to act upon the information and I have to say that he did it in a manner that I have no problems with whatsoever (and in a manner that I didn't really think he had the guts to do it--not telling other countries beforehand, including Pakistan). To share that information with anyone else could have caused potential leaks before the strike and we could have ended up with another case of just missing him (ie, the too-late missile strike after the USS Cole attack).
yes and stil no word from trump or palin or bachmann. and people like huckabee, pawlenty, and romney are downplaying obama's role in this....figures as much. obama only gave the order to kill bin laden. i never thought he had it in him. htti am still surprised to see cheney and bush give obama credit in this.
You're only surprised because of your characterization of the men. Bush has been nothing but honorable toward Obama since he left office. This is more a reflection of you than of him.
And who cares who gives credit to who? Can't we be above that political crap for 1 day?
my opinion of these men is based on their own words and their own actions. i am sure that i am not alone in my thoughts on them. bush has been gracious only because it is bad form for former presidents to criticize the current one. it is an unwritten rule. look at cheney, he has been nothing but a prick to obama since he left office, so it is shocking that cheney showed obama any respect in this at all. and yes, obama deserves credit in this because he gave the order. clinton didn't, bush diverted attention to iraq, obama accomplished the mission set by gwb.
and no, this IS a political event and it deserves to he thought of and spoken of and analyzed as such.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
so you are upset that he wasn't caught earlier instead of being happy he was caught at all?
also what proof would you require?[/quote]
I'm not upset about him not being caught earlier, BUT it really should have been done shortly after 9/11 but we know that Bush had his sights on Iraq instead. This was long overdue.
Any proof would suffice, but DNA would probably be the best, since you can skew photos and video. Capturing him would certainly provide more proof than this death certainly can.[/quote]
I can't believe that i am going to do this but i am actually going to defend Bush. in reality, OBL was around doing some bad things even when Clinton was in office. too put all the blame on bush is not fair, there was a history of people screwing up.
now as for the proof, there have been reports from the government that a DNA match was found, so what real proof do you really need. I personally believe that the reports are correct cause if not don't you think we would be hearing from experts saying how there is no way that DNA can be found as a match that early?
For those requiring proof, I'm sure the evidence will come out at some point. I'm far from Obama's biggest fan, but I doubt they are faking this. Skepticism is a good quality to have, but I believe that faking this would be an incredible political mistake that no first-term President would ever risk. To me, that's like saying the Bush administration planned and carried out 9/11. Possible? Sure. Plausible? Not unless you believe everything Jesse Ventura tells you and ignore the same evidence he ignores.
What I found interesting about this is that government sources have already told the media that the initial tip that led to finding him came back in 2007 in Guantanamo. It took years of following that lead to the next, and that one to the next, and so on and so on, but I'd say it provides some sort of vindication for the people who thought that Guantanamo would yield results in this effort. Don't mistake this for me saying that Bush deserves the credit for this or that Obama doesn't deserve any credit. To me, it would be ridiculous to make either of those claims, but it's fair to say that each President played a role in the events leading to this day. How much credit you think either man deserves is up to you--I have no idea, but I think there was some groundwork laid from some unpopular decisions (depending on your views). Whatever the case may be, it was ultimately Obama who had to give the order to act upon the information and I have to say that he did it in a manner that I have no problems with whatsoever (and in a manner that I didn't really think he had the guts to do it--not telling other countries beforehand, including Pakistan). To share that information with anyone else could have caused potential leaks before the strike and we could have ended up with another case of just missing him (ie, the too-late missile strike after the USS Cole attack).
Very well said. My feeling is that the US government has solid, irrefutable evidence that will come to light in due time, whatever due time happens to be in this case. The long term repercussion of his death is impossible to know, but I simply cannot see them having anything less than 100% certainty that it happened.
now as for the proof, there have been reports from the government that a DNA match was found, so what real proof do you really need. I personally believe that the reports are correct cause if not don't you think we would be hearing from experts saying how there is no way that DNA can be found as a match that early?
There are conflicting reports between this all happening a week ago (enough time to conduct accurate DNA testing) and Obama's orders came on April 30. If the latter is true, there is simply not enough time for accurate DNA tests.
Let me ask you a question, and everyone else who are not at all skeptical.
Why do you believe everything you read in the mainstream news? THERE IS NO PROOF YET. The body was thrown into the sea. Therefore questioning whether it really did happen and he's dead is completely natural.
now as for the proof, there have been reports from the government that a DNA match was found, so what real proof do you really need. I personally believe that the reports are correct cause if not don't you think we would be hearing from experts saying how there is no way that DNA can be found as a match that early?
There are conflicting reports between this all happening a week ago (enough time to conduct accurate DNA testing) and Obama's orders came on April 30. If the latter is true, there is simply not enough time for accurate DNA tests.
Let me ask you a question, and everyone else who are not at all skeptical.
Why do you believe everything you read in the mainstream news? THERE IS NO PROOF YET. The body was thrown into the sea. Therefore questioning whether it really did happen and he's dead is completely natural.
I don't believe everything I hear, but I agree with Godfather and Monster Rain on this -- that orchestrating cover-up of this magnitude would be political suicide if it ever came up to be false. if its fake, and bin laden shows up in a month, that would be hell for Obama. it is good and natural to question it though.
There are conflicting reports between this all happening a week ago (enough time to conduct accurate DNA testing) and Obama's orders came on April 30. If the latter is true, there is simply not enough time for accurate DNA tests.
Let me ask you a question, and everyone else who are not at all skeptical.
Why do you believe everything you read in the mainstream news? THERE IS NO PROOF YET. The body was thrown into the sea. Therefore questioning whether it really did happen and he's dead is completely natural.
So you really believe that president obama went on national TV and lied and that our government does not have the ability to conduct a DNA test within 24 hrs?
There are conflicting reports between this all happening a week ago (enough time to conduct accurate DNA testing) and Obama's orders came on April 30. If the latter is true, there is simply not enough time for accurate DNA tests.
Let me ask you a question, and everyone else who are not at all skeptical.
Why do you believe everything you read in the mainstream news? THERE IS NO PROOF YET. The body was thrown into the sea. Therefore questioning whether it really did happen and he's dead is completely natural.
Let's follow this line of thinking (if that's what we want to call it). So, let's say he's not dead. What does Obama (and by extension the US) gain from that? A day of front page news?
What's in it for Osama to stay hidden? Are we just gambling that he'll stay "gone" like he has for the recent past? Is this all an incredible ruse to get the rabbit to pop his head out of the hole, so we can THEN shoot it?
I don't get what your perceived end game here is. Conspiracy theories are fun, but most of them follow no logical conclusion (I know - there is not logic - that's the beauty of them!).
How many people would have to be in on this (including Osama and his immediate "handlers") to make something like this stick?
I'm always baffled by what the conspiracy theorists think is actually a plausible - scratch that - possible reason for these great masterminded plans and how they think the true facts are kept secret by so many people including a bunch that actually have reason NOT to.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
now as for the proof, there have been reports from the government that a DNA match was found, so what real proof do you really need. I personally believe that the reports are correct cause if not don't you think we would be hearing from experts saying how there is no way that DNA can be found as a match that early?
There are conflicting reports between this all happening a week ago (enough time to conduct accurate DNA testing) and Obama's orders came on April 30. If the latter is true, there is simply not enough time for accurate DNA tests.
Let me ask you a question, and everyone else who are not at all skeptical.
Why do you believe everything you read in the mainstream news? THERE IS NO PROOF YET. The body was thrown into the sea. Therefore questioning whether it really did happen and he's dead is completely natural.
I don't believe everything I hear, but I agree with Godfather and Monster Rain on this -- that orchestrating cover-up of this magnitude would be political suicide if it ever came up to be false. if its fake, and bin laden shows up in a month, that would be hell for Obama. it is good and natural to question it though.
I think you're right. And I'm hoping it's true, but to report on this while also saying, "the body's been disposed of into the sea", is saying that other than waiting for DNA reports, there really isn't any proof. You just have to believe what I'm saying. And to believe any politician, Obama or not, is difficult for me.
Comments
Only when it suits the government.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/0 ... 56186.html
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
i think if you talked to families of 911 they would say he was a threat to to them and also their way of life. I would have loved for OBL tried in court but lets be realistic, that was never going to happen.
All that refining didn't lead to much modesty huh?
That said, I am happy that he is gone. I would prefer they capture him for sure, but I am willing to bet he wouldn't let that happen anyhow.
Am I gonna go around celebrating? Nope. That seems weird. All the stuff on TV with people gathering in the streets (thankfully it didn't look like many) was strange. Seemed like they just found their next reason to drink and act stupid. I would prefer we didn't gather in the streets to celebrate death the way some other cultures do. But I am happy that he is no longer breathing. But someone will take his place.
:P
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
You're only surprised because of your characterization of the men. Bush has been nothing but honorable toward Obama since he left office. This is more a reflection of you than of him.
And who cares who gives credit to who? Can't we be above that political crap for 1 day?
Obama deserves no credit. Bush deserves no credit. The US Navy SEALs deserve the credit.
Our foreign policy is what got us here, not because Muslims can't stand us playing video games and that we wear blue jeans.
Maybe I'm not as refined. When I heard the news on the radio while driving to work, my first reaction wasn't to think, "man, another lost life, so sad ...", rather it was a Tiger Woods fist pump and a big smile on my face. Call it unrefined, but I still remember the pain of 9/11 and this man deserves no pity whatsoever.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
It is interesting to think what would've happened had he been taken alive.
I think a lot of the reason bin laden was a successful terrorist is that he had (inherited) so much money.
Is there any word on what happens to his assets? did he have any at the time of his death? Are his sons as wealth as he was and will they follow in his footsteps?
Yet the time to have taken him out was 10 years ago. It took the great and powerful U.S. 10 YEARS to catch him? I'm not celebrating because it should have been dealt with long ago. Not now. He should have been captured like Saddam had been, but before him.
AND I'm still waiting for proof before I believed it even happened.
It's a video of a messy place with blood in some areas. Who's blood? Osama? Does blood on the carpet prove he is dead? Why no footage released of dead body?
Personally, I think he is dead as this would be a too elaborate hoax to sustain but why all this 'mystery'? All these questions, some put forth by members on this thread? Why not just answer - the US are usually very quick in releasing videos, photos, etc. showing them hitting targets, etc. Should do the same here.
so you are upset that he wasn't caught earlier instead of being happy he was caught at all?
also what proof would you require?
I'm not upset about him not being caught earlier, BUT it really should have been done shortly after 9/11 but we know that Bush had his sights on Iraq instead. This was long overdue.
Any proof would suffice, but DNA would probably be the best, since you can skew photos and video. Capturing him would certainly provide more proof than this death certainly can.
What I found interesting about this is that government sources have already told the media that the initial tip that led to finding him came back in 2007 in Guantanamo. It took years of following that lead to the next, and that one to the next, and so on and so on, but I'd say it provides some sort of vindication for the people who thought that Guantanamo would yield results in this effort. Don't mistake this for me saying that Bush deserves the credit for this or that Obama doesn't deserve any credit. To me, it would be ridiculous to make either of those claims, but it's fair to say that each President played a role in the events leading to this day. How much credit you think either man deserves is up to you--I have no idea, but I think there was some groundwork laid from some unpopular decisions (depending on your views). Whatever the case may be, it was ultimately Obama who had to give the order to act upon the information and I have to say that he did it in a manner that I have no problems with whatsoever (and in a manner that I didn't really think he had the guts to do it--not telling other countries beforehand, including Pakistan). To share that information with anyone else could have caused potential leaks before the strike and we could have ended up with another case of just missing him (ie, the too-late missile strike after the USS Cole attack).
2010: Newark 5/18 MSG 5/20-21 2011: PJ20 9/3-4 2012: Made In America 9/2
2013: Brooklyn 10/18-19 Philly 10/21-22 Hartford 10/25 2014: ACL10/12
2015: NYC 9/23 2016: Tampa 4/11 Philly 4/28-29 MSG 5/1-2 Fenway 8/5+8/7
2017: RRHoF 4/7 2018: Fenway 9/2+9/4 2021: Sea Hear Now 9/18
2022: MSG 9/11 2024: MSG 9/3-4 Philly 9/7+9/9 Fenway 9/15+9/17
2025: Pittsburgh 5/16+5/18
and no, this IS a political event and it deserves to he thought of and spoken of and analyzed as such.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
also what proof would you require?[/quote]
I'm not upset about him not being caught earlier, BUT it really should have been done shortly after 9/11 but we know that Bush had his sights on Iraq instead. This was long overdue.
Any proof would suffice, but DNA would probably be the best, since you can skew photos and video. Capturing him would certainly provide more proof than this death certainly can.[/quote]
I can't believe that i am going to do this but i am actually going to defend Bush. in reality, OBL was around doing some bad things even when Clinton was in office. too put all the blame on bush is not fair, there was a history of people screwing up.
now as for the proof, there have been reports from the government that a DNA match was found, so what real proof do you really need. I personally believe that the reports are correct cause if not don't you think we would be hearing from experts saying how there is no way that DNA can be found as a match that early?
Very well said. My feeling is that the US government has solid, irrefutable evidence that will come to light in due time, whatever due time happens to be in this case. The long term repercussion of his death is impossible to know, but I simply cannot see them having anything less than 100% certainty that it happened.
There are conflicting reports between this all happening a week ago (enough time to conduct accurate DNA testing) and Obama's orders came on April 30. If the latter is true, there is simply not enough time for accurate DNA tests.
Let me ask you a question, and everyone else who are not at all skeptical.
Why do you believe everything you read in the mainstream news? THERE IS NO PROOF YET. The body was thrown into the sea. Therefore questioning whether it really did happen and he's dead is completely natural.
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
I don't believe everything I hear, but I agree with Godfather and Monster Rain on this -- that orchestrating cover-up of this magnitude would be political suicide if it ever came up to be false. if its fake, and bin laden shows up in a month, that would be hell for Obama. it is good and natural to question it though.
#obl
Osama
#theyhatin
Jack Bauer
#siosamafueramexicano
Seal Team
God Bless America
Toby Keith
Mission Accomplished
Pakistan
Let's follow this line of thinking (if that's what we want to call it). So, let's say he's not dead. What does Obama (and by extension the US) gain from that? A day of front page news?
What's in it for Osama to stay hidden? Are we just gambling that he'll stay "gone" like he has for the recent past? Is this all an incredible ruse to get the rabbit to pop his head out of the hole, so we can THEN shoot it?
I don't get what your perceived end game here is. Conspiracy theories are fun, but most of them follow no logical conclusion (I know - there is not logic - that's the beauty of them!).
How many people would have to be in on this (including Osama and his immediate "handlers") to make something like this stick?
I'm always baffled by what the conspiracy theorists think is actually a plausible - scratch that - possible reason for these great masterminded plans and how they think the true facts are kept secret by so many people including a bunch that actually have reason NOT to.
They're in this thread, I'd have to go back and find them, or you can if you're interested.
I think you're right. And I'm hoping it's true, but to report on this while also saying, "the body's been disposed of into the sea", is saying that other than waiting for DNA reports, there really isn't any proof. You just have to believe what I'm saying. And to believe any politician, Obama or not, is difficult for me.