Religious Beliefs

nuffingman

OnTheEdge wrote:

Just curious, a lot of people on the train seem to bash religion. Do this many people not believe in god, or heaven, or hell?

Nobody should bash religion because if that's what someone believes then they should be allowed too.

Me, I don't have a religious bone in my body and think it's all mumbo jumbo. I can't get my head around the thought there is a God that sits around watching the appalling things that take place around this world. He can flood the planet because of the way man has become but doesn't fry Gaddafi's arse.

Just my thoughts. I have religious friends but we just don't talk about it.

redrock

pandora wrote:

I didn't read the entire thread but I believe I was one of the only ones jumped on
for my spiritual beliefs when I was just sharing my life story as others were.

As I said if for one minute you knew without a doubt divine supernatural intervention
I have experienced would you be so quick to hurt me?

No need for such drama - hurt, cruel... etc. You haven't been 'jumped on'. Though one may think you also 'jump on' those that share their 'non beliefs': "You seem incredibly pessimistic and judgmental and could use a miracle in your life." "Open your heart...".

You say divine intervention, I say 'intervention' comes within. You've decided your 'experience' was divine, my husband knows his experience was human - his strength. That's all.

Maybe if your comment about god being there for all IF we wanted, should have been worded as such.

Let's just leave this as it is.

redrock

Go Beavers wrote:

God:yes. Heaven/afterlife:yes. Hell:no. Evolution:yes..

If one believes in Heaven, ie a place where one goes after death if he/she has been 'good', is it not illogical to say there is no hell - or whatever one wants to call 'the place of eternal punishment' - for those that have been 'bad'? After all, both are mentioned in the bible. Can we take one without the other? Same with god/satan?

pandora

redrock wrote:

pandora wrote:

I didn't read the entire thread but I believe I was one of the only ones jumped on
for my spiritual beliefs when I was just sharing my life story as others were.

As I said if for one minute you knew without a doubt divine supernatural intervention
I have experienced would you be so quick to hurt me?

No need for such drama - hurt, cruel... etc. You haven't been 'jumped on'. Though one may think you also 'jump on' those that share their 'non beliefs': "You seem incredibly pessimistic and judgmental and could use a miracle in your life." "Open your heart...".

You say divine intervention, I say 'intervention' comes within. You've decided your 'experience' was divine, my husband knows his experience was human - his strength. That's all.

Maybe if your comment about god being there for all IF we wanted, should have been worded as such.

Let's just leave this as it is.

The IF 'you all wanted him'.... he is there..... was the whole message I shared and again if its not something you can relate to why bother..unless just to put someone down.It was clear I was speaking to those in search of something not those who are not.

I was called egotistical and narrow minded but you only choose to see
what I say... not what others say to me redrock...why is that?

and yes I was hurt, no drama there, only you dismissing me and my feelings ...again ....why is that?

and being called those names when sharing a life changing event was very hurtful and why I retaliated with judgmental and pessimistic because that is exactly what it was.

please reread I said 'if you open your heart to the fact I truly had one you would not be quick to be so cruel.' not open your heart to God but the fact I believe I had a miracle so much so that I know without a doubt there is a God and an afterlife. Then I get jumped on and called names. Not pushing any views just sharing my life experience.

And redrock... It was divine supernatural intervention absolutely nothing to do with my power or strength as a human being
nothing I had to overcome... absolutely nothing human about it.

EmBleve

Not seeing a lot of love here...just sayin'. It seems that those who don't believe scoff at those who do, and those who do believe kinda judge the ones who don't. Most who have answered this post appear to be against 'religion' per se, and several do not believe in God. I wonder what the person who posted this subject thinks about the discussion? It's rather depressing to me, actually. :(

arq

EmBleve wrote:

Not seeing a lot of love here...just sayin'. It seems that those who don't believe scoff at those who do, and those who do believe kinda judge the ones who don't. Most who have answered this post appear to be against 'religion' per se, and several do not believe in God. I wonder what the person who posted this subject thinks about the discussion? It's rather depressing to me, actually. :(

This has been so far a good interchange of ideas, the discurse between theist and atheist it's been always like this. But you have to admit that the atheist won

pandora

arq wrote:

EmBleve wrote:

Not seeing a lot of love here...just sayin'. It seems that those who don't believe scoff at those who do, and those who do believe kinda judge the ones who don't. Most who have answered this post appear to be against 'religion' per se, and several do not believe in God. I wonder what the person who posted this subject thinks about the discussion? It's rather depressing to me, actually. :(

This has been so far a good interchange of ideas, the discurse between theist and atheist it's been always like this. But you have to admit that the atheist won

maybe here but not there ...sorry couldn't resist

just kidding arq.... a little believers joke .... gotta keep a sense of humor going
But seriously we must remember we are all here in this world together, thats what matters
this world here and now.

EmBleve

arq wrote:

EmBleve wrote:

Not seeing a lot of love here...just sayin'. It seems that those who don't believe scoff at those who do, and those who do believe kinda judge the ones who don't. Most who have answered this post appear to be against 'religion' per se, and several do not believe in God. I wonder what the person who posted this subject thinks about the discussion? It's rather depressing to me, actually. :(

This has been so far a good interchange of ideas, the discurse between theist and atheist it's been always like this. But you have to admit that the atheist won

Yes, I know, it is always like this, thus I try to avoid the subject because typically it goes nowhere. And, yeah, I did make the observation of the majority of those who responded...but I wasn't looking at it in terms of who 'won'. If you're 'winning', props to you. Winning is relative.

JonnyPistachio

EmBleve wrote:

Not seeing a lot of love here...just sayin'. It seems that those who don't believe scoff at those who do, and those who do believe kinda judge the ones who don't. Most who have answered this post appear to be against 'religion' per se, and several do not believe in God. I wonder what the person who posted this subject thinks about the discussion? It's rather depressing to me, actually. :(

I see what you're saying, so I thought I'd chime in.
I think the people who respond to this type of thread are the ones who have really thought about it, and are pretty sure of themselves (and hold steady on their beliefs). I, on the other hand, am in the middle sometimes. I'd say I am agnostic, but I hate to stand concrete on this one.

I think that amazing things happen all the time. Divine intervention and/or God speaking to us? I dont know.. Its all how we perceive it.

I think we can debate it -- but I need to believe most folks in here respect each others stances, but just get a little passionate sometimes.

EmBleve

johnnypistachio~

Its all how we perceive it.

I totally agree.

I think we can debate it -- but I need to believe most folks in here respect each others stances, but just get a little passionate sometimes.[/quote]

Again, agreed. It is a passionate subject. I also need to believe that most have mutual respect and acceptance (i.e. of others' beliefs/opinions)...but some, not so much. The thread just gives me a vibe of subtle hostility...

_

redrock wrote:

Go Beavers wrote:

God:yes. Heaven/afterlife:yes. Hell:no. Evolution:yes..

If one believes in Heaven, ie a place where one goes after death if he/she has been 'good', is it not illogical to say there is no hell - or whatever one wants to call 'the place of eternal punishment' - for those that have been 'bad'? After all, both are mentioned in the bible. Can we take one without the other? Same with god/satan?

I think it's logical. I see your logic too, but I think the difference might sometimes be how one defines these terms... heaven hell, good, bad, God, Satan. Not everyone who believes in "heaven" sees it as a physical location where you get to live the same kind of physical existence you lived on earth only with all the things you always wanted, for instance. And not everyone believes that bad people must exist for there to be good people. And maybe some people believe that this is hell.

I like to think that everyone is essentially good & will therefore go to heaven, whatever heaven may mean. I don't believe in hell, fire & brimstone, eternal punishment, or any of that.

_

OnTheEdge wrote:

Just curious, alot of people on the train seem to bash religion. Do this many people not believe in god, or heaven, or hell?

Again, I think it's more a bashing of what people see as others' beliefs (or non-belief) being imposed upon them (and everyone).

We would probably have much more civil discourse if people would use phrases like "I believe" instead of "I know" and "I haven't seen any scientific evidence" instead of "science proves that you're wrong".

I understand that people are passionate about their beliefs (whether atheist or theist), but we should respect & leave room for the beliefs of others too. After all, none of us really knows anything for sure.

redrock

_ wrote:

redrock wrote:

Go Beavers wrote:

God:yes. Heaven/afterlife:yes. Hell:no. Evolution:yes..

If one believes in Heaven, ie a place where one goes after death if he/she has been 'good', is it not illogical to say there is no hell - or whatever one wants to call 'the place of eternal punishment' - for those that have been 'bad'? After all, both are mentioned in the bible. Can we take one without the other? Same with god/satan?

I think it's logical. I see your logic too, but I think the difference might sometimes be how one defines these terms... heaven hell, good, bad, God, Satan. Not everyone who believes in "heaven" sees it as a physical location where you get to live the same kind of physical existence you lived on earth only with all the things you always wanted, for instance. And not everyone believes that bad people must exist for there to be good people. And maybe some people believe that this is hell.

I like to think that everyone is essentially good & will therefore go to heaven, whatever heaven may mean. I don't believe in hell, fire & brimstone, eternal punishment, or any of that.

This poster believes in god and in heaven (so believes in 'reward'). I am making the assumption that it is the christian god (though I may be wrong). This god seems to dish out punishment and reward - there are numerous references to 'entering the kingdom of god' (if you haven't sinned) or being thrown in hell. There is mention of 'the beast' and fiery lakes, etc. Now of course, there is no physical place 'up there' on the fluffy clouds or 'down there' amidst flames and sulphur as, first of all, it's not your physical being that goes to those places. I guess some people may think this place is hell (or at least purgatory) and believe there is a final recompense in the afterlife should you have 'behaved' or even maybe properly repented for your 'sins' by good deeds etc. So, if 'heaven' is a reward for good behaviour, should there not be a 'punishment' for bad?

Good and evil have always been and will always be. We will each have our definition of good and evil and many philosophers have pondered on this conflict for ages without complete consensus.

What happens with this good vs. evil and 'us' depends on what we believe. As I said, the christian god punishes and rewards (again - however you wish to define these) in the afterlife. So I'm thinking if the 'good' go somewhere, the 'bad' must as well - somewhere different.

pandora

I have read much on near death experience, studied all I could find from '96 to '99
in hopes of helping my mother with her passing.

She hadn't had religion in her life although her Mother was a devout Seventh Day Adventist.
Religion far more important in her era than ours now. It was her choice not to believe.

She knew and lived with more misery, betrayal and evil than one should ever have to.
She carried a lot of guilt for choices made in her 81 years and was very frightened
of death.

So I hunted for proof and we shared many long hours on the subject.
Until she was at peace with where she was going.

When it is said that none of us knows for sure that is not what I found in my studies.
It is not what I gave to my Mother that helped her graciously leave this world.
And it is not what I know to be true for myself and those
I personally have spoken to about near death experience. Some do know.

There are many who know there is an afterlife, they walk this earth and carry the knowledge
with their very being, just as my miracle has given me.

Of course we are all given the choice to believe their experience or not.
And that can not be debated our freedom of choice and finding our own truth
and the need for that.

Our choice to believe a person who dies on the operating table yet can tell you what their dearest relative was doing thousands of miles away at that precise moment ...because they went to say goodbye in spirit.

Or the dying patient who leaves this world to be brought back 10 minutes later that can tell the attending nurses ...there is a window open on the 11th floor with a red slipper on the ledge.

These just a quick couple of examples and I must say... it makes for delightful intriguing study.

The countless documented stories of people experiencing the same near death experience
but with a personal twist.
As there is for my miracle which I have also researched and know I'm not alone.

When my Mama passed it was I who found her. It had not been long that she was gone. Minutes.
I knew she waited for me to come say goodbye. I know she was still there in spirit, I could feel her there
and I know I will see her again.

Idris

I'd like to add something again, it's unfortunate that society has made us so cynical related to the reality, how things around us has conditioned us to be a certain way, think a certain way. Way's that go against the truth.

So when we say, belief is not really all that necessary, we have the ability to know, without a doubt what the reality is, and I'm not going to speak about religion, I tend not to say much about religion per say, as it's not always the best way to go about it. Not at such an early stage.

I know it's hard to believe that we can awaken from our sleep, but it's nothing but the truth. But again, don't believe it, experience it for yourself. As we so often say. It's the only way to know for sure right?

Be still and see. If you like, perhaps a look into Buddhist teachings will help you along the path. But don't get lost in it,

_

redrock wrote:

_ wrote:

redrock wrote:

If one believes in Heaven, ie a place where one goes after death if he/she has been 'good', is it not illogical to say there is no hell - or whatever one wants to call 'the place of eternal punishment' - for those that have been 'bad'? After all, both are mentioned in the bible. Can we take one without the other? Same with god/satan?

I think it's logical. I see your logic too, but I think the difference might sometimes be how one defines these terms... heaven hell, good, bad, God, Satan. Not everyone who believes in "heaven" sees it as a physical location where you get to live the same kind of physical existence you lived on earth only with all the things you always wanted, for instance. And not everyone believes that bad people must exist for there to be good people. And maybe some people believe that this is hell.

I like to think that everyone is essentially good & will therefore go to heaven, whatever heaven may mean. I don't believe in hell, fire & brimstone, eternal punishment, or any of that.

This poster believes in god and in heaven (so believes in 'reward'). I am making the assumption that it is the christian god (though I may be wrong). This god seems to dish out punishment and reward - there are numerous references to 'entering the kingdom of god' (if you haven't sinned) or being thrown in hell. There is mention of 'the beast' and fiery lakes, etc. Now of course, there is no physical place 'up there' on the fluffy clouds or 'down there' amidst flames and sulphur as, first of all, it's not your physical being that goes to those places. I guess some people may think this place is hell (or at least purgatory) and believe there is a final recompense in the afterlife should you have 'behaved' or even maybe properly repented for your 'sins' by good deeds etc. So, if 'heaven' is a reward for good behaviour, should there not be a 'punishment' for bad?

Good and evil have always been and will always be. We will each have our definition of good and evil and many philosophers have pondered on this conflict for ages without complete consensus.

What happens with this good vs. evil and 'us' depends on what we believe. As I said, the christian god punishes and rewards (again - however you wish to define these) in the afterlife. So I'm thinking if the 'good' go somewhere, the 'bad' must as well - somewhere different.

I guess my point is that not everyone who considers themselves to be Christian really believes that God punishes & rewards like many people interpret the Bible to say. People have numerous interpretations of religious principles and so our logic of our understanding of someone else's God isn't necessarily applicable.

_

We cannot "know" anything except through our interpretation of it. Two people can experience the exact same thing and take away different "knowledge" from it. Neither of them is wrong or right.

redrock

_ wrote:

redrock wrote:

_ wrote:

I think it's logical. I see your logic too, but I think the difference might sometimes be how one defines these terms... heaven hell, good, bad, God, Satan. Not everyone who believes in "heaven" sees it as a physical location where you get to live the same kind of physical existence you lived on earth only with all the things you always wanted, for instance. And not everyone believes that bad people must exist for there to be good people. And maybe some people believe that this is hell.

I like to think that everyone is essentially good & will therefore go to heaven, whatever heaven may mean. I don't believe in hell, fire & brimstone, eternal punishment, or any of that.

This poster believes in god and in heaven (so believes in 'reward'). I am making the assumption that it is the christian god (though I may be wrong). This god seems to dish out punishment and reward - there are numerous references to 'entering the kingdom of god' (if you haven't sinned) or being thrown in hell. There is mention of 'the beast' and fiery lakes, etc. Now of course, there is no physical place 'up there' on the fluffy clouds or 'down there' amidst flames and sulphur as, first of all, it's not your physical being that goes to those places. I guess some people may think this place is hell (or at least purgatory) and believe there is a final recompense in the afterlife should you have 'behaved' or even maybe properly repented for your 'sins' by good deeds etc. So, if 'heaven' is a reward for good behaviour, should there not be a 'punishment' for bad?

Good and evil have always been and will always be. We will each have our definition of good and evil and many philosophers have pondered on this conflict for ages without complete consensus.

What happens with this good vs. evil and 'us' depends on what we believe. As I said, the christian god punishes and rewards (again - however you wish to define these) in the afterlife. So I'm thinking if the 'good' go somewhere, the 'bad' must as well - somewhere different.

I guess my point is that not everyone who considers themselves to be Christian really believes that God punishes & rewards like many people interpret the Bible to say. People have numerous interpretations of religious principles and so our logic of our understanding of someone else's God isn't necessarily applicable.

True... I guess people can pick and choose which bits of religion/teachings they wish to abide by/include in their lives as it suits. A bit like picking the raisins out of your muesli if you don't like them. My mother was a staunch catholic and 'took note' of things. My father became catholic to marry my mother and really couldn't give a s**t about any god or 'teachings'.

To each their own.

I look at good vs evil from a philosophical point of view and not a religious one. Rewards & punishment for good or evil are in this world - it's what we make of it.

_

redrock wrote:

I look at good vs evil from a philosophical point of view and not a religious one. Rewards & punishment for good or evil are in this world - it's what we make of it.

I look at evil not as the opposite of good, which necessarily exists for good to exist, but more as a lack of good or a lack of love. And I see people as good and their actions, not the people themselves, as evil.

redrock

_ wrote:

redrock wrote:

I look at good vs evil from a philosophical point of view and not a religious one. Rewards & punishment for good or evil are in this world - it's what we make of it.

I look at evil not as the opposite of good, which necessarily exists for good to exist, but more as a lack of good or a lack of love. And I see people as good and their actions, not the people themselves, as evil.

Good vs. evil does not need to be taken literally. These words do not have to be how the dictionary defines them. There are many concepts of good and evil.

Though if theists are ready to accept miracles/apparitions/divine intervention as 'real' since they have been documented, should they therefore not give credence to 'satanic' (?) intervention eg demonic possession with coughing up of nails, etc. as these have also been documented by the same people who recorded the 'positive' interventions? I don't see how one can dissociate the two types of intervention. Goes back to god and satan (or whatever one wants to call them), good and evil - one goes with the other.