guns and bullets

wolfamongwolves

pandora wrote:

Our world is filled with evil,
on a small personal scale and a very large scale, corrupted governments.

What evil wants/needs to thrive, is power
It is what drives evil, gratifies, tempts, nourishes, sustains.

It drives men (and governments) to rape, steal, cheat, murder, oppress.
Money is power, power is money.

Having a group of people totally powerless and saying that is ok assumes our world is not evil,
that power deserves our trust. This is foolhardy and naive.

Protecting the right to bear arms protects our freedoms and
protects our basic right to protect ourselves against oppression and personal harm.

I'll say this again... I don't feel "totally powerless" without a gun. I don't feel oppressed. I feel safer.

You say the world is "evil" and therefore we need guns to protect ourselves at all costs. Then how come the rest of us (in that same evil world) are able to manage just fine without them, and have no spurious notion of any "rights" being violated.

You say it is foolhardy and naive to think power deserves our trust. What is it that you want from having a gun in your belt if not a sense of power? So why then should I trust you, or anyone else for that matter, with a gun?

Your argument really doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

dunkman

HeidiJam wrote:

eyedclaar wrote:

Do people not realize that most gun injuries and deaths occur from accidents or crimes of passion, committed by what has usually been a relatively sane individual (no criminal record)? Chances are, it won’t be this “criminal” out there that’s gonna come shoot you because you don’t have a gun to protect yourself. Chances are, you are going to accidently shoot yourself, or your neighbor for fuckin’ your wife, or your kid will find it unlocked and loaded, but the chances are fairly slim that you just get shot by some crazed criminal out there.

You can trust me, I’m a career criminal and I haven’t shot anyone…

Please site your stats please. http://washingtonceasefire.org/resource ... statistics
How Are Victims Killed?

•Homicide: 11,624 / 39% of All Fatalities
•Suicide: 16,750 / 57% of All Fatalities
•Unintentional Death (Accidental): 649 / 2% of All Fatalities
How Are Victims Injured?

•Assault Injury: 43,592 / 68% of All Injuries
•Unsuccessful Suicide Attempt: 3,352 (may be incorrect -- actual number may be larger, see CDC website) / 5% of All Injuries
•Accidental Injury: 16,555 / 26% of All Injuries

i think those back up what eyed just said... suicide and accidental death is more likely than a bad man coming and killing you... also of those 39% homicides how many were crimes of passion, family feuds, gang-related, etc... how many were a guy shooting another guy because he had tried to break into his house? probably so infinitesimal that it didnt register a stat...

FACT: 300 years ago it was legal to own a slave... and a gun... and woman couldnt vote... 2 out of those 3 things were amended.

dunkman

pandora wrote:

Our world is filled with evil,
on a small personal scale and a very large scale, corrupted governments.

What evil wants/needs to thrive, is power
It is what drives evil, gratifies, tempts, nourishes, sustains.

It drives men (and governments) to rape, steal, cheat, murder, oppress.
Money is power, power is money.

Having a group of people totally powerless and saying that is ok assumes our world is not evil,
that power deserves our trust. This is foolhardy and naive.

Protecting the right to bear arms protects our freedoms and
protects our basic right to protect ourselves against oppression and personal harm.

i don't comprehend your fear of your own government... i work for the government... i know how gloriously inept it actually is... it takes about 3 weeks to order staples... why the fuck would the American government want to start a war against its own people?

stop living in fear... this is the root cause of all this shit... you guys are scared of criminals, of your own government, of change.

wolfamongwolves

dunkman wrote:

stop living in fear... this is the root cause of all this shit... you guys are scared of criminals, of your own government, of change.

Amen

nuffingman

HeidiJam wrote:

Well maybe look at the US stats on areas where there were tighter gun control/ laws and you will see that the gun crimes RISE... You people need to start using logic. If you take guns away from law abiding citizens then they have no way of protecting themselves. Criminals are not going to follow gun laws, well because they are criminals. There will always be a blackmarket for guns. Taking them away from everybody will only entice more gun crime beccause criminals will know citizens won't be armed. How hard is that to figure out.

The thought of law abiding people over here being allowed to have guns just in case some gun toting criminal turns up is frightening. Are there really that many gun carrying criminals over there or is it just the sacred preservation of being able to own arms?

The sooner there is strict gun control in the US the sooner this sort of incident will reduce. If you think it won't try telling the parents of the 9 year old girl that. In many ways the US is a superpower but in others it seems to be backwards.

BinauralJam

I'm against hand guns and shotguns, not rifles. You can hunt and defend your home with a Rifle. If you happen to shot yourself with a rifle, your a dick, no big loss.

Blockhead

nuffingman wrote:

HeidiJam wrote:

Well maybe look at the US stats on areas where there were tighter gun control/ laws and you will see that the gun crimes RISE... You people need to start using logic. If you take guns away from law abiding citizens then they have no way of protecting themselves. Criminals are not going to follow gun laws, well because they are criminals. There will always be a blackmarket for guns. Taking them away from everybody will only entice more gun crime beccause criminals will know citizens won't be armed. How hard is that to figure out.

The thought of law abiding people over here being allowed to have guns just in case some gun toting criminal turns up is frightening. Are there really that many gun carrying criminals over there or is it just the sacred preservation of being able to own arms?

The sooner there is strict gun control in the US the sooner this sort of incident will reduce. If you think it won't try telling the parents of the 9 year old girl that. In many ways the US is a superpower but in others it seems to be backwards.

But why do the stats say otherwise???

Blockhead

dunkman wrote:

i think those back up what eyed just said... suicide and accidental death is more likely than a bad man coming and killing you... also of those 39% homicides how many were crimes of passion, family feuds, gang-related, etc... how many were a guy shooting another guy because he had tried to break into his house? probably so infinitesimal that it didnt register a stat...

FACT: 300 years ago it was legal to own a slave... and a gun... and woman couldnt vote... 2 out of those 3 things were amended.

SO how is a responsible gun owner considered a bad thing???

nuffingman

HeidiJam wrote:

nuffingman wrote:

HeidiJam wrote:

Well maybe look at the US stats on areas where there were tighter gun control/ laws and you will see that the gun crimes RISE... You people need to start using logic. If you take guns away from law abiding citizens then they have no way of protecting themselves. Criminals are not going to follow gun laws, well because they are criminals. There will always be a blackmarket for guns. Taking them away from everybody will only entice more gun crime beccause criminals will know citizens won't be armed. How hard is that to figure out.

The thought of law abiding people over here being allowed to have guns just in case some gun toting criminal turns up is frightening. Are there really that many gun carrying criminals over there or is it just the sacred preservation of being able to own arms?

The sooner there is strict gun control in the US the sooner this sort of incident will reduce. If you think it won't try telling the parents of the 9 year old girl that. In many ways the US is a superpower but in others it seems to be backwards.

But why do the stats say otherwise???

Because stats can be twisted and manipulated for any purpose. The good points can be buffed to a bright shine and the not so good ones can be swept under a carpet. We see it over here all the time. Stats will probably also tell you that most people will go out to bar and behave themselves but just a few won't. I wouldn't want these characers to be able to own guns.

We see enough shootings over here with gun control, I dread to think what it would be like if there wasn't. You need to ask questions of your politicians. How many won't fight for gun control just because they'll lose votes.

dunkman

HeidiJam wrote:

dunkman wrote:

i think those back up what eyed just said... suicide and accidental death is more likely than a bad man coming and killing you... also of those 39% homicides how many were crimes of passion, family feuds, gang-related, etc... how many were a guy shooting another guy because he had tried to break into his house? probably so infinitesimal that it didnt register a stat...

FACT: 300 years ago it was legal to own a slave... and a gun... and woman couldnt vote... 2 out of those 3 things were amended.

SO how is a responsible gun owner considered a bad thing???

who decides who is responsible? You didnt think Saddam was responsible enough to have a nuclear weapon.. or North Korea.... or Iran... yet your own country can't even control its own citizens from shooting one another... what hypocrisy.

You can be responsible up to a point... then you find out your wife cheats on you... or you owe money to the government for taxes... or lose your job... or whatever... in the UK we'd most likely get drunk... in America that person might just flip and take his gun out and kill a few people with him.

JonnyPistachio

HeidiJam wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

eyedclaar wrote:

Do people not realize that most gun injuries and deaths occur from accidents or crimes of passion, committed by what has usually been a relatively sane individual (no criminal record)? Chances are, it won’t be this “criminal” out there that’s gonna come shoot you because you don’t have a gun to protect yourself. Chances are, you are going to accidently shoot yourself, or your neighbor for fuckin’ your wife, or your kid will find it unlocked and loaded, but the chances are fairly slim that you just get shot by some crazed criminal out there.

You can trust me, I’m a career criminal and I haven’t shot anyone…

Great post.
Also, we are discussing this topic every time there is a mass shooting by some crazy whackjob. In the several biggest cases in recent history -- Az, Virginia, columbine, and many others, were the crazed gunmen EVER stopped by someone carrying their concealed weapon?

Aren't schools gun free zones? Not a very good example.

The parking lot in AZ where last weeks shooting took place wasnt a gun-free zone.
There are dozens of other MASS shooting cases (not in schools) in the last few years in the US that commonly end with the shooter killing himself, or sometimes the shooter being shot by police. I hardly ever hear of a good samaritan saving the day with their concealed weapon in these cases.

nuffingman

JonnyPistachio wrote:

The parking lot in AZ where last weeks shooting took place wasnt a gun-free zone.
There are dozens of other MASS shooting cases (not in schools) in the last few years in the US that commonly end with the shooter killing himself, or sometimes the shooter being shot by police. I hardly ever hear of a good samaritan saving the day with their concealed weapon in these cases.

That is a very good point.

pandora

dunkman wrote:

pandora wrote:

Our world is filled with evil,
on a small personal scale and a very large scale, corrupted governments.

What evil wants/needs to thrive, is power
It is what drives evil, gratifies, tempts, nourishes, sustains.

It drives men (and governments) to rape, steal, cheat, murder, oppress.
Money is power, power is money.

Having a group of people totally powerless and saying that is ok assumes our world is not evil,
that power deserves our trust. This is foolhardy and naive.

Protecting the right to bear arms protects our freedoms and
protects our basic right to protect ourselves against oppression and personal harm.

i don't comprehend your fear of your own government... i work for the government... i know how gloriously inept it actually is... it takes about 3 weeks to order staples... why the fuck would the American government want to start a war against its own people?

stop living in fear... this is the root cause of all this shit... you guys are scared of criminals, of your own government, of change.

Actually I'm not afraid of what I see as inevitable which is change, hopefully the right change,
for the better of all kind of change not just for some.
And I'm not naive to the evil that is already at work
as some choose not to see.
Perhaps because of the sheep syndrome.

But I am for power to the people and no.... taking away guns from responsible law abiding people is a ridiculous notion. Makes no sense at all.
If this crazy person wanted to hurt these people a gun he would get within the law or outside the law.
Obviously he didn't care about the law. Not even God's law.

Kind of my point, Evil finds it's power, finds it's way
and it is in the good in people that will bring the change.
Open your heart, stop judging, which you seem to be doing of your neighbors ....
gun owners are good people too.

JonnyPistachio

Yes, of course responsible gun owners are good people.
And there is NO way to tell if there were tougher laws/bans on guns whether or not the nutjob in AZ would have gone through the trouble to get one.

It is so sad that this happened to this little 9 yr old girl -- and I only wish that guns werent so easy to obtain here in the US.

Just my opinion, but i've had 3 personal encounters with guns that all almost turned our horribly bad. If I were the owner a gun, nothing would have changed in these scanarios.

(hypothetically) If guns were banned in the US I feel that it would take dozens of years to eliminate them enough to where it would make a difference on the street, but it would make me feel better. I live in a huge gang area where tons of thugs can get their hands on guns very easily. Gas station clerks are being killed non-stop over a handful of cash here. If there were no guns, many of these needless murderes would not be happening at the rate they do.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

really? how would this guy have killed 5 people and injured others with just his bare hands? or even a baseball bat? or even a knife?

HeidiJam wrote:

If somebody is going to kill someone they will do it regardless of weather there are guns or not. Some of you need to think logically instead of what your parties views are.

Godfather.

Gun ownership in the United States of America will never go away.
End of story.

Godfather.

Moonpig

Godfather. wrote:

Gun ownership in the United States of America will never go away.
End of story.

Godfather.

Unfortunatly you are probably right, however the debate here was around the morality of guns being so readily available. That people don't see fit to challange such an outdated ideology may speak volumes as to how America is percieved in the world today.

Cosmo

Godfather. wrote:

Gun ownership in the United States of America will never go away.
End of story.

Godfather.

...
That is pretty black and white. No one wants to abolish the Second Amendment, except for the few on the extreme end... same goes for the ones who think everyone should own a gun.
How about some reasonable gun ownership responsibilities... including the selling of firearms. I am certain that even you believe that certain people should not be allowed to own guns, right?

JonnyPistachio

Moonpig wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

Gun ownership in the United States of America will never go away.
End of story.

Godfather.

Unfortunatly you are probably right, however the debate here was around the morality of guns being so readily available. That people don't see fit to challange such an outdated ideology may speak volumes as to how America is percieved in the world today.

Good point. This made me wonder (I had not heard), did the shooter in the AZ incident obtain his gun legally?

Moonpig

JonnyPistachio wrote:

Moonpig wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

Gun ownership in the United States of America will never go away.
End of story.

Godfather.

Unfortunatly you are probably right, however the debate here was around the morality of guns being so readily available. That people don't see fit to challange such an outdated ideology may speak volumes as to how America is percieved in the world today.

Good point. This made me wonder (I had not heard), did the shooter in the AZ incident obtain his gun legally?

I think I read that he had passed the backround checks, as to whether or not the weapon used was his or not, I am not 100%