FACT: The non-gun homicide rate for children in the U.S. is more than twice as high than other western countries.
Eight times as many children die from non-gun violent acts than from gun crimes.
* Kids and Guns, 2000, Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention
This indicates that the problem is violence, NOT guns !!
FACT: 82% of homicides to children age 13 and under were committed without a gun.
* 1997, FBI Uniform Crime Statistics
FACT: 0.1% of all deaths for children between the ages 0-14 are from firearms, 0.6% are from motor vehicles, 5.3% are from being struck in beatings or bludgeoning, 6.0% from poisoning, and 42.6% from suffocation.
* 1997 National Center for Health Statistics National Vital Statistics Report
FACT: In 1996 there were only 21 accidental gun deaths for children under age 15. About twice as many children under 10 die from drowning in bathtubs.
* Centers for Disease Control
MYTH: 13 Children are killed each day by guns.
FACT: The statistics cited for this myth include "children" up to age 19 or age 24, depending on the source. Most violent crime is committed by males ages 16-24, so these numbers include adult gang members dying during criminal activity.
*FBI Uniform Crime Statistics, 1997
FACT: 18-20 year olds commit over 23% of all gun murders. None of these criminals are allowed to purchase a handgun due to their age under current law.
* U.S. Treasury and Justice Dept. Report, 1999
FACT: During the Clinton administration, federal prosecutions of gun-related crimes dropped more than 44%.
* Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse (TRAC) at Syracuse Univ. 1992-1998
FACT: There are more than 22,000 gun laws at the city, county, state, and federal level.
* BATF estimate, 1992
If gun control worked, then we should be free of crime.
FACT: There are more guns in the U.S. than cars (228,000,000 guns according to the 1998 FBI statistics and 207,754,000 automobiles according to the 1998 Federal Highway Administration registrations). Yet, you are 31 times more likely to be accidentally killed by a car than a gun according to the National Safety Council…despite cars having been registered and licensed for more than 100 years.
FACT: 90% of all violent crime in the U.S. does not involve any gun of any type.
* 1998 Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms
FACT: Less than 1% of all guns will ever be used in the commission of any type of crime (much less violent crime).
*FBI Uniform Crime Statistics, 1994
FACT: Two-thirds of the people that die each year from gunfire are criminals shooting other criminals.
* FBI Uniform Crime Statistics, 1994
FACT: The national five day waiting period under the Brady Bill had no impact on murder or robbery, but slightly increased rape and aggravated assault rates by a few percent. For these two crime categories, the major effect was to delay law-abiding citizens from getting a gun for protection. The risks were greatest for crimes against women.
* Dr. John Lott Jr., Univ. of Chicago School of Law
FACT: Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year, or 6,849 per day.
* Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State Univ.
Often the gun is never fired and no blood (including the criminals) is shed.
FACT: Every day, 550 rapes, 1,100 murders, and 5,200 other violent crimes per day are prevented just by showing a handgun. In less than 0.9% of the time is the gun ever actually ever fired.
* Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State Univ.
FACT: Every year, people in the United States use a gun to defend themselves against criminals an estimated 2,500,000 times- more than 6,500 people a day, or once every 13 seconds.
* Fall 1995, Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology
This means that, each year, firearms are used 65 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.
FACT: Of the 250,000,000 annual self-defense cases using guns, more than 7.7% are by women defending themselves against sexual abuse.
* U.S. Dept. of Justice, Law Enforcement Assistance Administration,
Rape Victimization in 26 American Cities, 1979
MYTH: Concealed Carry Laws Increase Crime
FACT: When citizens are allowed to carry concealed weapons:
* Murder rates drop 8%
* Rape rates fall 5%
* Aggravated assaults drop 7%
More to the point, crime is significantly higher in states without right -to -carry laws.
TYPE OF CRIME HOW MUCH HIGHER IN RESTRICTIVE STATES (states without Concealed carry laws)
Violent Crime ……………………81% higher
Murder ………………………….. 86% higher
Rape …………………………… 25% higher
Assault…………………………… 82% higher
Robbery………………………….. 105% higher
Auto Theft……………………….. 60% higher
* John Lott, David Mustard: This study involved county level crime statistics from all 3,054 counties in the U.S. from 1977 through 1992. During this time, ten states adopted right-to-carry laws. It is estimated that if all states had adopted right-to-carry laws, in 1992 the U.S. would have avoided 1,400 murders, 4,200 rapes, 12,000 robberies, 60,000 aggravated assaults- and would have saved over $5,000,000,000 in victim expenses.
FACT: 92.7% of law enforcement officials believe that citizens should be able to purchase firearms for self-defense and sporting purposes.
* 1999 Police Survey, National Assoc. of Chiefs of Police
MYTH: Police are our protection, and people don't need guns.
FACT: The courts have consistently ruled that the police do not have an obligation to protect individuals. In Warren v. District of Columbia Metropolitan Police Dept.,
444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App. 1981), the court stated: 'Courts have without exception concluded that when a municipality or other governmental entity undertakes to furnish police services, it assumes a duty only to the public at large and not to individual members of the community.'
FACT: After Canada's 1977 gun controls prohibited handgun possession for self defense, the "breaking and entering" crime rate rose 25%, surpassing the U.S. rate.
* Pat Mayhew, Residential Burglary: A Comparison of the United States,
Canada and England and Wales (Nat'l Inst. Of Just., Wash., D.C., 1987)
MYTH: Japan has strict gun control and a less violent society.
FACT: In Japan, the murder rate is about 1 per 100,000. In the U.S., there are about 3.2 murders per 100,000 each year by weapons other than firearms.
* United Nations data
Therefore, if all of the firearms in the U.S. could magically be eliminated, we would still have three times the murder rate of Japan.
it'd be a fuckload easier if all the pathetic limp wristed gun owners just met up one sunny day in somewhere like Idaho or Iowa and just had a massive cockfight to the death... save us all the frustration and sadness of hearing of yet another maniac going on the rampage.
and when will people get over the kitchen knife/baseball bat/hammers kill people argument???? it's the argumentative equivalent of a 4 year old retard saying "yellow" every time his carer asks him the colour of the sky.
you can piss and moan about guns all you want...but they will NEVER go away.
it might be a fuckload easier if limp wristed pathetic cry babies would just stop whining like a bunch of pre-teen spoiled brats who have zero understanding of the words freedom and rights..other than their right to snivel about issues they have ZERO understanding of, have a nice day.
Godfather.
"Whining like a bunch of pre-teen spoiled brats", really? Come on now, what is that even supposed to mean? I for one think the whole issue of gun control in the States is farcical. I know full we what the words freedom and rights mean, as I'm sure Dunkman does aswell.
And for the record, you have posted about many issues you have freely admitted to having ZERO understanding of and have then, to your credit, educated yourself on the matter, (see not just for the elite). Just because I or anoyone else may have a differing opinion to yours does not for one second mean that my understanding of the subject matter is ZERO. This whole, "de tuk errr guuunnnss" crap is getting really old, in light of what has happened just this weekend.
Enough of this you're an idiot, I'm an idiot school yard pissing contest shit. Embrace diversity mate, jesus that's what I thought your country was founded on.
it'd be a fuckload easier if all the pathetic limp wristed gun owners just met up one sunny day in somewhere like Idaho or Iowa and just had a massive cockfight to the death... save us all the frustration and sadness of hearing of yet another maniac going on the rampage.
and when will people get over the kitchen knife/baseball bat/hammers kill people argument???? it's the argumentative equivalent of a 4 year old retard saying "yellow" every time his carer asks him the colour of the sky.
you can piss and moan about guns all you want...but they will NEVER go away.
it might be a fuckload easier if limp wristed pathetic cry babies would just stop whining like a bunch of pre-teen spoiled brats who have zero understanding of the words freedom and rights..other than their right to snivel about issues they have ZERO understanding of, have a nice day.
Godfather.
g
you
snivel about issues you have ZERO understanding of
every day
plese try to not be so hypocritical of other people's opinions
The whole world will be different soon... - EV
RED ROCKS 6-19-95
AUGUSTA 9-26-96
MANSFIELD 9-15-98
BOSTON 9-29-04
BOSTON 5-25-06
MANSFIELD 6-30-08
EV SOLO BOSTON 8-01-08
BOSTON 5-17-10
EV SOLO BOSTON 6-16-11
PJ20 9-3-11
PJ20 9-4-11
WRIGLEY 7-19-13
WORCESTER 10-15-13
WORCESTER 10-16-13
HARTFORD 10-25-13
i enjoy that 'rights' bullshit... its a right to bear arms... it's only a 'right' cos some wee man with a quill wrote it down on a bit of paper and declared it so... he might have been mentally insufficient to declare that a right... what if it had been a 'right' to 'fist a goat on a sunday' just because someone 300 years ago was into that kinda shit.
stop living in the past america... rights are given and rights are taken away... i'd hate to live my life based on a 300 year old law made in a time when a gun probably was required due to the troubled times of that era... basically we should make it a right for any new fledging country to go around shooting each other... hey Bosnians.. write it down now!!! you have a right to flash 19 year old girls whenever the fuck you want!!!
crazy times for a crazy country.
This is our country, it is a wee small country in age compared to many in the world. We are infants perhaps even embryos compared to Europe. It was founded by claiming freedom from Europe.
Our Constitution and Bill of Rights is the basis to our freedom. I support our freedoms.
There are few troubled times more troubling than now.
If you trust those in power you may see within your lifetime the error in your ways,
this, I hope, will not come to be.
FACT: In Japan, the murder rate is about 1 per 100,000. In the U.S., there are about 3.2 murders per 100,000 each year by weapons other than firearms.
* United Nations data
Therefore, if all of the firearms in the U.S. could magically be eliminated, we would still have three times the murder rate of Japan.
all this proves is that you murder people a lot more than Japan using something OTHER than a gun.
FACT: firearm-related death rate per 100,000 population in one year in the USA is 10.2. In Japan it is 0.07 per 100,000 population.
see? all your showing me is that Japan is doing something right.
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
it'd be a fuckload easier if all the pathetic limp wristed gun owners just met up one sunny day in somewhere like Idaho or Iowa and just had a massive cockfight to the death... save us all the frustration and sadness of hearing of yet another maniac going on the rampage.
and when will people get over the kitchen knife/baseball bat/hammers kill people argument???? it's the argumentative equivalent of a 4 year old retard saying "yellow" every time his carer asks him the colour of the sky.
you can piss and moan about guns all you want...but they will NEVER go away.
it might be a fuckload easier if limp wristed pathetic cry babies would just stop whining like a bunch of pre-teen spoiled brats who have zero understanding of the words freedom and rights..other than their right to snivel about issues they have ZERO understanding of, have a nice day.
Godfather.
g
you
snivel about issues you have ZERO understanding of
every day
plese try to not be so hypocritical of other people's opinions
it'd be a fuckload easier if all the pathetic limp wristed gun owners just met up one sunny day in somewhere like Idaho or Iowa and just had a massive cockfight to the death... save us all the frustration and sadness of hearing of yet another maniac going on the rampage.
and when will people get over the kitchen knife/baseball bat/hammers kill people argument???? it's the argumentative equivalent of a 4 year old retard saying "yellow" every time his carer asks him the colour of the sky.
you can piss and moan about guns all you want...but they will NEVER go away.
it might be a fuckload easier if limp wristed pathetic cry babies would just stop whining like a bunch of pre-teen spoiled brats who have zero understanding of the words freedom and rights..other than their right to snivel about issues they have ZERO understanding of, have a nice day.
Godfather.
i do understand it... I'm good with history, so I know about archaic and backward laws that people will follow like armed sheep under the guise of ignorance and patriotism.
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
FACT: In Japan, the murder rate is about 1 per 100,000. In the U.S., there are about 3.2 murders per 100,000 each year by weapons other than firearms.
* United Nations data
Therefore, if all of the firearms in the U.S. could magically be eliminated, we would still have three times the murder rate of Japan.
all this proves is that you murder people a lot more than Japan using something OTHER than a gun.
FACT: firearm-related death rate per 100,000 population in one year in the USA is 10.2. In Japan it is 0.07 per 100,000 population.
see? all your showing me is that Japan is doing something right.
Great job ignoring all the other facts... The point is that violent crimes happen, taking away guns from law abiding citizens will only do more damage. Whats your plan then?
Blame an object instead of focusing on the real issue. Brilliant.
Aren't you the one who always claims that if people were allowed to carry guns things like the Arizona shooting wouldn't happen? Well? Arizona allows concealed weapons so how does that philosophy hold up today?
I'm not familiar witih the laws out there in AZ-- but are they similar to the concealed carry laws like in New York, where as you probably know, it takes you about a year to get a handgun after all of the paperwork, visits to judges, fees, and background checks? It is pretty discouraging to handgun ownership here, but technically you CAN carry, but it's not easy to-- and I only know a handful of people that actually do. If the same thing were to happen here in NY, a police officer would likely be the first line of defense, and it might have been effective in stopping this (assuming he or she wasn't writing someone else ticket for some bullshit offense) since you pretty much need a cop to be present just to wipe your ass in this state. In Texas, 20 civillians might have had their guns drawn on the guy before he fired the shot. Who knows? It's a horrible tragedy either way.
The real question is, do gun laws ever stop a truly violent criminal from doing damage? How many violent crimes are committed with illegal firearms? I'm willing to wager the majority. I do believe in the right to protect yourself whether it was scribbled on a piece of paper 300 years ago or not. I am not a fan of guns, but I am all for leveling the playing field-- criminals will always have access to guns, and therefore, so should law-abiding citizens.
I also believe in citizens being armed in the (unlikely) event that the government DOES go well beyond its allowable use of force-- this also goes for any foreign country who might attempt an occupation on our soil-- again, unlikely, but I see it as a deterrent against aggression, and an insurance policy.
It is very possible that people can be progressive enough to not want or need guns no matter what the laws say. If people want to stop the number one cause of deaths related to gun violence worldwide, there should be a greater movement to stop MILITARY AGGRESSION. Guns and gun violence are most prevalent in places where people feel threatened, from Afghanistan to the most ghetto cities in America-- the places where people live in fear, and are under oppression by some outside force. The solution to gun violence (and violence in general) is a freer society, where people do have more opportunities and more for themselves, and therefore less need to forcefully impose themselves on others. I believe that there is no 100% complete and utopic solution, but allowing people to be more self-determining will probably even decrease the amount of crazy people liable to "snap" if they are given more true control over their lives. After all, what is paranoia but irrational fear? I think in cases like this guy in Arizona his irrational fear grew out of some unnecessary legitimate fears and were allowed to spiral out of control. It's sad to say, it's not going to get any better out there anytime soon-- let's just try and take care of each other the best we can.
There are few troubled times more troubling than now.
If you trust those in power you may see within your lifetime the error in your ways,
this, I hope, will not come to be.
Yoda?
are you suggesting that if i trsut my democratically elected government I may see the error of my ways?
some of you need to get a reality check...
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
FACT: In Japan, the murder rate is about 1 per 100,000. In the U.S., there are about 3.2 murders per 100,000 each year by weapons other than firearms.
* United Nations data
Therefore, if all of the firearms in the U.S. could magically be eliminated, we would still have three times the murder rate of Japan.
all this proves is that you murder people a lot more than Japan using something OTHER than a gun.
FACT: firearm-related death rate per 100,000 population in one year in the USA is 10.2. In Japan it is 0.07 per 100,000 population.
see? all your showing me is that Japan is doing something right.
Great job ignoring all the other facts... The point is that violent crimes happen, taking away guns from law abiding citizens will only do more damage. Whats your plan then?
"The point is that violent crimes happen, taking away guns from law abiding citizens will only do more damage."
thats supposition... you have no idea if that would be the case... you're making shit up.
as for your facts...
Rates of Homicide, Suicide, and Firearm-Related Death Among Children -- 26 Industrialized Countries
A firearm was reported to have been involved in the deaths of 1107 children; 957 (86%) of those occurred in the United States. Of all firearm-related deaths, 55% were reported as homicides; 20%, as suicides; 22%, as unintentional; and 3%, as intention undetermined. The overall firearm-related death rate among U.S. children aged less than 15 years was nearly 12 times higher than among children in the other 25 countries combined (1.66 compared with 0.14) (Table_1). The firearm-related homicide rate in the United States was nearly 16 times higher than that in all of the other countries combined (0.94 compared with 0.06); the firearm-related suicide rate was nearly 11 times higher (0.32 compared with 0.03); and the unintentional firearm-related death rate was nine times higher (0.36 compared with 0.04). For all countries, males accounted for most of the firearm-related homicides (67%), firearm-related suicides (77%), and unintentional firearm-related deaths (89%). The nonfirearm-related homicide rate in the United States was nearly four times the rate in all of the other countries (1.63 compared with 0.45), and nonfirearm-related suicide rates were similar in the United States and in all of the other countries combined (0.23 compared with 0.24).
Reported by: Div of Violence Prevention, National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, CDC.
simple FACT is you guys loving killing each other... you are the best at it... GO USA! GO USA! USA FTW at child deaths!!! woop woop :thumbup:
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
There are few troubled times more troubling than now.
If you trust those in power you may see within your lifetime the error in your ways,
this, I hope, will not come to be.
Yoda?
are you suggesting that if i trsut my democratically elected government I may see the error of my ways?
some of you need to get a reality check...
thats exactly what I am suggesting
and I hope it is me who will need the reality check
because then peace and freedom will prevail
I also believe in citizens being armed in the (unlikely) event that the government DOES go well beyond its allowable use of force-- this also goes for any foreign country who might attempt an occupation on our soil-- again, unlikely, but I see it as a deterrent against aggression, and an insurance policy.
my issue with this is that it is never ever going to happen... an armed militia of a few thousand going up against the might of the US? never ever going to happen.
you will never ever be invaded either... unless its by China... and i don't think they'll be that bothered by 8000 slightly disorganised fat guys who have been in a gun club for 4 years.
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
it'd be a fuckload easier if all the pathetic limp wristed gun owners just met up one sunny day in somewhere like Idaho or Iowa and just had a massive cockfight to the death... save us all the frustration and sadness of hearing of yet another maniac going on the rampage.
and when will people get over the kitchen knife/baseball bat/hammers kill people argument???? it's the argumentative equivalent of a 4 year old retard saying "yellow" every time his carer asks him the colour of the sky.
you can piss and moan about guns all you want...but they will NEVER go away.
it might be a fuckload easier if limp wristed pathetic cry babies would just stop whining like a bunch of pre-teen spoiled brats who have zero understanding of the words freedom and rights..other than their right to snivel about issues they have ZERO understanding of, have a nice day.
Godfather.
g
you
snivel about issues you have ZERO understanding of
every day
plese try to not be so hypocritical of other people's opinions
I will if you will.
Godfather.
Post edited by Godfather. on
0
81
Needing a ride to Forest Hills and a ounce of weed. Please inquire within. Thanks. Or not. Posts: 58,276
bow and arrow? what are they designed to do? oh yeah.
bow and arrow? what are they designed to do? oh yeah.
hunt animals for food actually... whereas guns were designed solely for the battlefield... i.e. killing other humans.
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
Wait, there's gonna be a big shoot-out in Idaho somewhere? Count me in. I'm probably about the only gun owner who finds himself agreeing with Dunk. Probably because I think most gun owners are complete morons.
Idaho's Premier Outdoor Writer
Please Support My Writing Habit By Purchasing A Book:
When things like this have happened in other countries (Dunk's, for example), the reaction has been to remove the guns from the equation, and the result has been, it hasn't happened again. That to me makes sense. If dangerous people can easily get their hands on guns, and you don't know until they've got one that they are dangerous, then surely it stands to reason that reducing the enabling environment for such lethal flashpoints, by tighter regulation, or by removing the guns altogether, will reduce the killing.
So I never can comprehend why the US, and it seems only the US, reacts in diametric opposition to that logic, and somehow reaches the counter-intuitive conclusion that to prevent gun deaths, you need more guns and less regulation. It just fuels the fire that just keeps on burning... That twisted reasoning is so horrendously irresponsible, so obviously dangerous. It is the same logical fallacy that kept the world on a knife-edge during the cold war. It was counter-productive then, and it's counter-productive now. No supposed "right" is worth the risk it entails.
Pandora says that the US is an infant compared to the rest of the world. I agree, and it is well past time that it grew up.
Post edited by wolfamongwolves on
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
When things like this have happened in other countries (Dunk's, for example), the reaction has been to remove the guns from the equation, and the result has been, it hasn't happened again. That to me makes sense. If dangerous people can easily get their hands on guns, and you don't know until they've got one that they are dangerous, then surely it stands to reason that reducing the enabling environment for such lethal flashpoints, by tighter regulation, or by removing the guns altogether, will reduce the killing.
So I never can comprehend why the US, and it seems only the US, takes the diametrically opposed reation to that logic and somehow reaches the conclusion that to prevent gun deaths, you need more guns and less regulation. It just fuels the fire that just keeps on burning... That twisted reasoning is so horrendously irresponsible, so obviously dangerous. It is the same logical fallacy that kept the world on a knife-edge during the cold war. It was counter-productive then, and it's counter-productive now. To say nothing of counter-intuitive. No supposed "right" is worth the risk.
Pandora says that the US is an infant compared to the rest of the world. I agree, but it is well past time that it grew up.
Well maybe look at the US stats on areas where there were tighter gun control/ laws and you will see that the gun crimes RISE... You people need to start using logic. If you take guns away from law abiding citizens then they have no way of protecting themselves. Criminals are not going to follow gun laws, well because they are criminals. There will always be a blackmarket for guns. Taking them away from everybody will only entice more gun crime beccause criminals will know citizens won't be armed. How hard is that to figure out.
bow and arrow? what are they designed to do? oh yeah.
hunt animals for food actually... whereas guns were designed solely for the battlefield... i.e. killing other humans.
:crazy: is that it ?....weak.
Godfather.
was it about as weak as using a 300 year old piece of paper to justify having a metal cock?
and your style of debate is weaker even that that... it's the most one-sided argument i've ever had... it's like you're bringing a plastic spatula to my AK-47 gunfight
Post edited by dunkman on
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
When things like this have happened in other countries (Dunk's, for example), the reaction has been to remove the guns from the equation, and the result has been, it hasn't happened again. That to me makes sense. If dangerous people can easily get their hands on guns, and you don't know until they've got one that they are dangerous, then surely it stands to reason that reducing the enabling environment for such lethal flashpoints, by tighter regulation, or by removing the guns altogether, will reduce the killing.
So I never can comprehend why the US, and it seems only the US, takes the diametrically opposed reation to that logic and somehow reaches the conclusion that to prevent gun deaths, you need more guns and less regulation. It just fuels the fire that just keeps on burning... That twisted reasoning is so horrendously irresponsible, so obviously dangerous. It is the same logical fallacy that kept the world on a knife-edge during the cold war. It was counter-productive then, and it's counter-productive now. To say nothing of counter-intuitive. No supposed "right" is worth the risk.
Pandora says that the US is an infant compared to the rest of the world. I agree, but it is well past time that it grew up.
Germany had gun control (or ban) before the second world war I think ? look at what happened to a people that had no way to protect them selfs.
I also believe in citizens being armed in the (unlikely) event that the government DOES go well beyond its allowable use of force-- this also goes for any foreign country who might attempt an occupation on our soil-- again, unlikely, but I see it as a deterrent against aggression, and an insurance policy.
my issue with this is that it is never ever going to happen... an armed militia of a few thousand going up against the might of the US? never ever going to happen.
you will never ever be invaded either... unless its by China... and i don't think they'll be that bothered by 8000 slightly disorganised fat guys who have been in a gun club for 4 years.
China may not be bothered by 8,000 slightly disorganized fat guys in the gun club. True. However, it would be much more than that, and you cannot discount the efforts of guerilla style warriors with minimal weaponry (but weaponry nonetheless) against some major powers in history:
The American Revolution
Vietnam
Modern Day Afghanistan
The latter of the 2 were / are against the "mighty" US Armed forces-- in both cases the US faired less than favorably.
As for the US Government being a threat to its own citizens, there are enough provisions on the books that in the case of a complete collapse, economic or otherwise (or even less-so, since everyone in the world knows that our government tends to over-react when faced with crisis), that martial law is a very REAL scenario, here. And as for who is actually armed in this country, there are far more than you think. It is the number of people who carry a weapon that is not such a great number. Rifles and shotguns for hunting and sporting purposes are fairly abundant even here in New York.
As for these American Apocolyptic scenarios, I did say unlikely, but not impossible. I do not fear China-- depsite their size and might, they are not stupid, and do not want to upset relations with their best trading partner. Again, neither country has to like each other, but as long as there are opportunites for peaceful trade, violence is less than likely.
I don't think you have much to worry about or much need for arms up there in Castle Fuckula
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unsung
I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
Aren't you the one who always claims that if people were allowed to carry guns things like the Arizona shooting wouldn't happen? Well? Arizona allows concealed weapons so how does that philosophy hold up today?
No, I've said states that enact concealed carry have a reduction in violent crime. Nothing is absolute. A complete ban on guns does not work either. Dozens of kids were killed each year in Chicago, when there was a handgun ban.
Germany had gun control (or ban) before the second world war I think ? look at what happened to a people that had no way to protect them selfs.
Godfather.
totally fucking laughable... did you find the Moving Train by accident? did you think it was a forum for people who like to go travelling but couldnt drive due to a low IQ?
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
0
unsung
I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
dunkman are you from the USA ? if not then how could you possibly understand and if you are, that 300 year old piece of paper guaranteed our freedom...along with guns. so really.. run off and bitch about your own country or shut up. have a nice day.
Germany had gun control (or ban) before the second world war I think ? look at what happened to a people that had no way to protect them selfs.
Godfather.
totally fucking laughable... did you find the Moving Train by accident? did you think it was a forum for people who like to go travelling but couldnt drive due to a low IQ?
Your rebuttal is fucking laughable... You act as if guns committ all crimes. Violent people commit violent acts, why is it an issue of what weapon is used??? You have done nothing but voice your OPINION. You have stated no Facts and No Plan. You opinion is to take away all guns from people, Is that going to stop violence??? NO, it will cause more violence because criminals will always access to guns. So now you want a society where criminals have guns and citizens have, well nothing to protect themselves. Great Fucking Plan...
it'd be a fuckload easier if all the pathetic limp wristed gun owners just met up one sunny day in somewhere like Idaho or Iowa and just had a massive cockfight to the death... save us all the frustration and sadness of hearing of yet another maniac going on the rampage.
and when will people get over the kitchen knife/baseball bat/hammers kill people argument???? it's the argumentative equivalent of a 4 year old retard saying "yellow" every time his carer asks him the colour of the sky.
Comments
Eight times as many children die from non-gun violent acts than from gun crimes.
* Kids and Guns, 2000, Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention
This indicates that the problem is violence, NOT guns !!
FACT: 82% of homicides to children age 13 and under were committed without a gun.
* 1997, FBI Uniform Crime Statistics
FACT: 0.1% of all deaths for children between the ages 0-14 are from firearms, 0.6% are from motor vehicles, 5.3% are from being struck in beatings or bludgeoning, 6.0% from poisoning, and 42.6% from suffocation.
* 1997 National Center for Health Statistics National Vital Statistics Report
FACT: In 1996 there were only 21 accidental gun deaths for children under age 15. About twice as many children under 10 die from drowning in bathtubs.
* Centers for Disease Control
MYTH: 13 Children are killed each day by guns.
FACT: The statistics cited for this myth include "children" up to age 19 or age 24, depending on the source. Most violent crime is committed by males ages 16-24, so these numbers include adult gang members dying during criminal activity.
*FBI Uniform Crime Statistics, 1997
FACT: 18-20 year olds commit over 23% of all gun murders. None of these criminals are allowed to purchase a handgun due to their age under current law.
* U.S. Treasury and Justice Dept. Report, 1999
FACT: During the Clinton administration, federal prosecutions of gun-related crimes dropped more than 44%.
* Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse (TRAC) at Syracuse Univ. 1992-1998
FACT: There are more than 22,000 gun laws at the city, county, state, and federal level.
* BATF estimate, 1992
If gun control worked, then we should be free of crime.
FACT: There are more guns in the U.S. than cars (228,000,000 guns according to the 1998 FBI statistics and 207,754,000 automobiles according to the 1998 Federal Highway Administration registrations). Yet, you are 31 times more likely to be accidentally killed by a car than a gun according to the National Safety Council…despite cars having been registered and licensed for more than 100 years.
FACT: 90% of all violent crime in the U.S. does not involve any gun of any type.
* 1998 Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms
FACT: Less than 1% of all guns will ever be used in the commission of any type of crime (much less violent crime).
*FBI Uniform Crime Statistics, 1994
FACT: Two-thirds of the people that die each year from gunfire are criminals shooting other criminals.
* FBI Uniform Crime Statistics, 1994
FACT: The national five day waiting period under the Brady Bill had no impact on murder or robbery, but slightly increased rape and aggravated assault rates by a few percent. For these two crime categories, the major effect was to delay law-abiding citizens from getting a gun for protection. The risks were greatest for crimes against women.
* Dr. John Lott Jr., Univ. of Chicago School of Law
FACT: Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year, or 6,849 per day.
* Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State Univ.
Often the gun is never fired and no blood (including the criminals) is shed.
FACT: Every day, 550 rapes, 1,100 murders, and 5,200 other violent crimes per day are prevented just by showing a handgun. In less than 0.9% of the time is the gun ever actually ever fired.
* Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State Univ.
FACT: Every year, people in the United States use a gun to defend themselves against criminals an estimated 2,500,000 times- more than 6,500 people a day, or once every 13 seconds.
* Fall 1995, Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology
This means that, each year, firearms are used 65 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.
FACT: Of the 250,000,000 annual self-defense cases using guns, more than 7.7% are by women defending themselves against sexual abuse.
* U.S. Dept. of Justice, Law Enforcement Assistance Administration,
Rape Victimization in 26 American Cities, 1979
MYTH: Concealed Carry Laws Increase Crime
FACT: When citizens are allowed to carry concealed weapons:
* Murder rates drop 8%
* Rape rates fall 5%
* Aggravated assaults drop 7%
More to the point, crime is significantly higher in states without right -to -carry laws.
TYPE OF CRIME HOW MUCH HIGHER IN RESTRICTIVE STATES (states without Concealed carry laws)
Violent Crime ……………………81% higher
Murder ………………………….. 86% higher
Rape …………………………… 25% higher
Assault…………………………… 82% higher
Robbery………………………….. 105% higher
Auto Theft……………………….. 60% higher
* John Lott, David Mustard: This study involved county level crime statistics from all 3,054 counties in the U.S. from 1977 through 1992. During this time, ten states adopted right-to-carry laws. It is estimated that if all states had adopted right-to-carry laws, in 1992 the U.S. would have avoided 1,400 murders, 4,200 rapes, 12,000 robberies, 60,000 aggravated assaults- and would have saved over $5,000,000,000 in victim expenses.
FACT: 92.7% of law enforcement officials believe that citizens should be able to purchase firearms for self-defense and sporting purposes.
* 1999 Police Survey, National Assoc. of Chiefs of Police
MYTH: Police are our protection, and people don't need guns.
FACT: The courts have consistently ruled that the police do not have an obligation to protect individuals. In Warren v. District of Columbia Metropolitan Police Dept.,
444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App. 1981), the court stated: 'Courts have without exception concluded that when a municipality or other governmental entity undertakes to furnish police services, it assumes a duty only to the public at large and not to individual members of the community.'
FACT: After Canada's 1977 gun controls prohibited handgun possession for self defense, the "breaking and entering" crime rate rose 25%, surpassing the U.S. rate.
* Pat Mayhew, Residential Burglary: A Comparison of the United States,
Canada and England and Wales (Nat'l Inst. Of Just., Wash., D.C., 1987)
MYTH: Japan has strict gun control and a less violent society.
FACT: In Japan, the murder rate is about 1 per 100,000. In the U.S., there are about 3.2 murders per 100,000 each year by weapons other than firearms.
* United Nations data
Therefore, if all of the firearms in the U.S. could magically be eliminated, we would still have three times the murder rate of Japan.
"Whining like a bunch of pre-teen spoiled brats", really? Come on now, what is that even supposed to mean? I for one think the whole issue of gun control in the States is farcical. I know full we what the words freedom and rights mean, as I'm sure Dunkman does aswell.
And for the record, you have posted about many issues you have freely admitted to having ZERO understanding of and have then, to your credit, educated yourself on the matter, (see not just for the elite). Just because I or anoyone else may have a differing opinion to yours does not for one second mean that my understanding of the subject matter is ZERO. This whole, "de tuk errr guuunnnss" crap is getting really old, in light of what has happened just this weekend.
Enough of this you're an idiot, I'm an idiot school yard pissing contest shit. Embrace diversity mate, jesus that's what I thought your country was founded on.
g
you
snivel about issues you have ZERO understanding of
every day
plese try to not be so hypocritical of other people's opinions
RED ROCKS 6-19-95
AUGUSTA 9-26-96
MANSFIELD 9-15-98
BOSTON 9-29-04
BOSTON 5-25-06
MANSFIELD 6-30-08
EV SOLO BOSTON 8-01-08
BOSTON 5-17-10
EV SOLO BOSTON 6-16-11
PJ20 9-3-11
PJ20 9-4-11
WRIGLEY 7-19-13
WORCESTER 10-15-13
WORCESTER 10-16-13
HARTFORD 10-25-13
Our Constitution and Bill of Rights is the basis to our freedom. I support our freedoms.
There are few troubled times more troubling than now.
If you trust those in power you may see within your lifetime the error in your ways,
this, I hope, will not come to be.
all this proves is that you murder people a lot more than Japan using something OTHER than a gun.
FACT: firearm-related death rate per 100,000 population in one year in the USA is 10.2. In Japan it is 0.07 per 100,000 population.
see? all your showing me is that Japan is doing something right.
they should choose their words more carefully.
Godfather.
i do understand it... I'm good with history, so I know about archaic and backward laws that people will follow like armed sheep under the guise of ignorance and patriotism.
I'm not familiar witih the laws out there in AZ-- but are they similar to the concealed carry laws like in New York, where as you probably know, it takes you about a year to get a handgun after all of the paperwork, visits to judges, fees, and background checks? It is pretty discouraging to handgun ownership here, but technically you CAN carry, but it's not easy to-- and I only know a handful of people that actually do. If the same thing were to happen here in NY, a police officer would likely be the first line of defense, and it might have been effective in stopping this (assuming he or she wasn't writing someone else ticket for some bullshit offense) since you pretty much need a cop to be present just to wipe your ass in this state. In Texas, 20 civillians might have had their guns drawn on the guy before he fired the shot. Who knows? It's a horrible tragedy either way.
The real question is, do gun laws ever stop a truly violent criminal from doing damage? How many violent crimes are committed with illegal firearms? I'm willing to wager the majority. I do believe in the right to protect yourself whether it was scribbled on a piece of paper 300 years ago or not. I am not a fan of guns, but I am all for leveling the playing field-- criminals will always have access to guns, and therefore, so should law-abiding citizens.
I also believe in citizens being armed in the (unlikely) event that the government DOES go well beyond its allowable use of force-- this also goes for any foreign country who might attempt an occupation on our soil-- again, unlikely, but I see it as a deterrent against aggression, and an insurance policy.
It is very possible that people can be progressive enough to not want or need guns no matter what the laws say. If people want to stop the number one cause of deaths related to gun violence worldwide, there should be a greater movement to stop MILITARY AGGRESSION. Guns and gun violence are most prevalent in places where people feel threatened, from Afghanistan to the most ghetto cities in America-- the places where people live in fear, and are under oppression by some outside force. The solution to gun violence (and violence in general) is a freer society, where people do have more opportunities and more for themselves, and therefore less need to forcefully impose themselves on others. I believe that there is no 100% complete and utopic solution, but allowing people to be more self-determining will probably even decrease the amount of crazy people liable to "snap" if they are given more true control over their lives. After all, what is paranoia but irrational fear? I think in cases like this guy in Arizona his irrational fear grew out of some unnecessary legitimate fears and were allowed to spiral out of control. It's sad to say, it's not going to get any better out there anytime soon-- let's just try and take care of each other the best we can.
Yoda?
are you suggesting that if i trsut my democratically elected government I may see the error of my ways?
some of you need to get a reality check...
"The point is that violent crimes happen, taking away guns from law abiding citizens will only do more damage."
thats supposition... you have no idea if that would be the case... you're making shit up.
as for your facts...
Rates of Homicide, Suicide, and Firearm-Related Death Among Children -- 26 Industrialized Countries
A firearm was reported to have been involved in the deaths of 1107 children; 957 (86%) of those occurred in the United States. Of all firearm-related deaths, 55% were reported as homicides; 20%, as suicides; 22%, as unintentional; and 3%, as intention undetermined. The overall firearm-related death rate among U.S. children aged less than 15 years was nearly 12 times higher than among children in the other 25 countries combined (1.66 compared with 0.14) (Table_1). The firearm-related homicide rate in the United States was nearly 16 times higher than that in all of the other countries combined (0.94 compared with 0.06); the firearm-related suicide rate was nearly 11 times higher (0.32 compared with 0.03); and the unintentional firearm-related death rate was nine times higher (0.36 compared with 0.04). For all countries, males accounted for most of the firearm-related homicides (67%), firearm-related suicides (77%), and unintentional firearm-related deaths (89%). The nonfirearm-related homicide rate in the United States was nearly four times the rate in all of the other countries (1.63 compared with 0.45), and nonfirearm-related suicide rates were similar in the United States and in all of the other countries combined (0.23 compared with 0.24).
Reported by: Div of Violence Prevention, National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, CDC.
simple FACT is you guys loving killing each other... you are the best at it... GO USA! GO USA! USA FTW at child deaths!!! woop woop :thumbup:
I agree with this.
and I hope it is me who will need the reality check
because then peace and freedom will prevail
my issue with this is that it is never ever going to happen... an armed militia of a few thousand going up against the might of the US? never ever going to happen.
you will never ever be invaded either... unless its by China... and i don't think they'll be that bothered by 8000 slightly disorganised fat guys who have been in a gun club for 4 years.
Godfather.
hunt animals for food actually... whereas guns were designed solely for the battlefield... i.e. killing other humans.
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So I never can comprehend why the US, and it seems only the US, reacts in diametric opposition to that logic, and somehow reaches the counter-intuitive conclusion that to prevent gun deaths, you need more guns and less regulation. It just fuels the fire that just keeps on burning... That twisted reasoning is so horrendously irresponsible, so obviously dangerous. It is the same logical fallacy that kept the world on a knife-edge during the cold war. It was counter-productive then, and it's counter-productive now. No supposed "right" is worth the risk it entails.
Pandora says that the US is an infant compared to the rest of the world. I agree, and it is well past time that it grew up.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
:crazy: is that it ?....weak.
Godfather.
was it about as weak as using a 300 year old piece of paper to justify having a metal cock?
and your style of debate is weaker even that that... it's the most one-sided argument i've ever had... it's like you're bringing a plastic spatula to my AK-47 gunfight
Germany had gun control (or ban) before the second world war I think ? look at what happened to a people that had no way to protect them selfs.
Godfather.
China may not be bothered by 8,000 slightly disorganized fat guys in the gun club. True. However, it would be much more than that, and you cannot discount the efforts of guerilla style warriors with minimal weaponry (but weaponry nonetheless) against some major powers in history:
The American Revolution
Vietnam
Modern Day Afghanistan
The latter of the 2 were / are against the "mighty" US Armed forces-- in both cases the US faired less than favorably.
As for the US Government being a threat to its own citizens, there are enough provisions on the books that in the case of a complete collapse, economic or otherwise (or even less-so, since everyone in the world knows that our government tends to over-react when faced with crisis), that martial law is a very REAL scenario, here. And as for who is actually armed in this country, there are far more than you think. It is the number of people who carry a weapon that is not such a great number. Rifles and shotguns for hunting and sporting purposes are fairly abundant even here in New York.
As for these American Apocolyptic scenarios, I did say unlikely, but not impossible. I do not fear China-- depsite their size and might, they are not stupid, and do not want to upset relations with their best trading partner. Again, neither country has to like each other, but as long as there are opportunites for peaceful trade, violence is less than likely.
I don't think you have much to worry about or much need for arms up there in Castle Fuckula
No, I've said states that enact concealed carry have a reduction in violent crime. Nothing is absolute. A complete ban on guns does not work either. Dozens of kids were killed each year in Chicago, when there was a handgun ban.
totally fucking laughable... did you find the Moving Train by accident? did you think it was a forum for people who like to go travelling but couldnt drive due to a low IQ?
Ultimately any change will never happen. And if there were to be change the entire Constitution could be gutted.
Godfather.
Why do you hate Idaho and Iowa?