guns and bullets

JonnyPistachio

mikepegg44 wrote:

Point to me a situation where lax gun control laws are the sole reason for crime and violence. As brought up before, vermont has extremely lax gun control laws, why aren't there shoot outs in the streets every day? maybe it is because guns aren't the problem...something else is causing it. Again, why punish those who aren't going to commit crimes with their weapons?

I believe the lax gun laws in Arizona caused several deaths a few weeks ago. There is no doubt in my mind that stricter laws would have saved a life or two that day. In 2004 the law limited magazine rounds to 10. That law expired, and the kid got mags with 30+ rounds. He purchased these things legally. He was tackled after the first mag of 30+ rounds were fired. Here's the math, 30 rounds = 6 dead. if he had 10 rounds = 2 dead. Stricter laws might have saved lives. Maybe a waiting peroid could have prolonged it a few months while someone finally realized that he was nuts in the interim.

Yuo might have a point with Vermont as I dont know much about it, but I am also under the impression that life is a little differnt in Vermont... A lot less people and a different culture. But I'm sure there are senseless shootings there from time to time, as there are in every other state.

JonnyPistachio

What I really want answered by the gun rights folks is: do you think there is no problem with gun laws and things should continue as is?

Blockhead

dunkman wrote:

honestly man i simply can't be fucked anymore... if you can't see the correlation between the ease of acquiring a gun and the vast amount of shootings you have then its no point discussing it... of course other things play a part, the mental state, upbringing, societal pressures, money, drugs, etc... but the ready availability of a handgun in the US also plays a major contributing factor... we have mental issues here in the UK, problems with drugs, alcohol, society, money... the same ills and concerns as the US.. but what we don't have is an easy access to a gun... and what we don't have is multiple gun shootings and multiple deaths.

"something else is causing it"... what? what do you or anyone in America think causes the huge amount of shootings compared to other countries? I personally think that the ease of getting a gun plays a major major part of that fact.

Correlation does not equal causation... Just because there are crimes and murders does not mean its because of the invention of guns. You keep listing UK, yet they have more total crimes per capita than the US does. You seem to keep ignoring why people want Kill... Our innercity culture is extremely bad in the US, thanks to socialistic programs such as welfare (gun, rap culture, easy money). What is UK minority percentage compared to the US. That could give you some insight as to why we have a higher murder rate...

he still stands

There have been studies that CORRELATE violence and gun ownership, but no CAUSALITY has ever been proven.

So, we could say easier access to guns lead to more violence, or it could mean that larger amounts of violence lead to a higher level of gun ownership for self defense, or any other independent cause.

There are also studies that have not found a correlation between the two, so until there is signicant scientific proof, please quit implying that it is self-evident that guns cause violence.

Also, just because some of us are "pro gun" doesn't mean that we're okay with all this violence in the world. For some reason anti-gun folks automatically make that leap. Personally, I think that violence of any kind is the result of mental health problems that are caused by a fabricated, toxic and viral society.

Godfather.

dunkman wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

you guys are pissing in the wind, we will always have the right to own a gun if you all like it or not and even if by some slim chance we lose that right due to some dripping non-thinking prick there would millions of people that keep their unregistered guns anyway.

Godfather.

fucks sake man... after 30-odd pages of this havent you worked out that people are asking for tighter regulations and NOT to take away your beloved guns.... simply to have more stringent controls over who has that 'right'...

fucking unbelievable

:yawn: yeah sure dunk,everybody wants to change the world.

Blockhead

JonnyPistachio wrote:

What I really want answered by the gun rights folks is: do you think there is no problem with gun laws and things should continue as is?

Yes there is a problem with gun laws, I don't think anyone has argued that. My issue is that, people who are going to murder and committ crimes (criminals) will not follow any gun laws that we have, just look at our drug issues. And there will always be a blackmarket for guns. I think there should be an annual re-registration for your gun liscense and at that time we could have them take a writen test and mental evaluation. But again, If someone intends on committing a crime / murder, they will just not renew these requirements. Maybe we could have a tracking system on Bullets like a VIN # on a car, each time you purchase bullets you have to present your liscense and you information will be on file. But again, these wont necessarly stop murders. These rules and regulations will probably increase crime as criminals will get smart and start robbing houses for guns so that their murder/crime will not be tracked...

Blockhead

he still stands wrote:

There have been studies that CORRELATE violence and gun ownership, but no CAUSALITY has ever been proven.

So, we could say easier access to guns lead to more violence, or it could mean that larger amounts of violence lead to a higher level of gun ownership for self defense, or any other independent cause.

There are also studies that have not found a correlation between the two, so until there is signicant scientific proof, please quit implying that it is self-evident that guns cause violence.

Also, just because some of us are "pro gun" doesn't mean that we're okay with all this violence in the world. For some reason anti-gun folks automatically make that leap. Personally, I think that violence of any kind is the result of mental health problems that are caused by a fabricated, toxic and viral society.

I posted earlier in here of countires with gun bans/control had a higher murder rate than their neighboring counties with no gun bans.

eMMI

Godfather. wrote:

dunkman wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

you guys are pissing in the wind, we will always have the right to own a gun if you all like it or not and even if by some slim chance we lose that right due to some dripping non-thinking prick there would millions of people that keep their unregistered guns anyway.

Godfather.

fucks sake man... after 30-odd pages of this havent you worked out that people are asking for tighter regulations and NOT to take away your beloved guns.... simply to have more stringent controls over who has that 'right'...

fucking unbelievable

:yawn: yeah sure dunk,everybody wants to change the world.

Wanting to change the world is a bad thing now? Fair enough, not everyone wants to change it for the better, but some (dare I say most) people do! People want to puts laws in place that could save lives and you (not specifically only you) just sit there and dismiss it with a simple "bad guys are gonna do bad stuff" or "don't take away my rights!".

Unbe-fucking-lievable!

dunkman

he still stands wrote:

There have been studies that CORRELATE violence and gun ownership, but no CAUSALITY has ever been proven.

So, we could say easier access to guns lead to more violence, or it could mean that larger amounts of violence lead to a higher level of gun ownership for self defense, or any other independent cause.

There are also studies that have not found a correlation between the two, so until there is signicant scientific proof, please quit implying that it is self-evident that guns cause violence.

Also, just because some of us are "pro gun" doesn't mean that we're okay with all this violence in the world. For some reason anti-gun folks automatically make that leap. Personally, I think that violence of any kind is the result of mental health problems that are caused by a fabricated, toxic and viral society.

i'm saying that that the ease and availability of a gun a significant factor on the US's extremely high homicide rates... surely thats a given? thats a common sense maths question...

its like the ease of attaining extremely cheap strong alcohol and in vast quantities plays a SIGNIFICANT factor in relation to the anti-social behaviour problems of UK teenagers... using your logic and the other pro-gunners then the alcohol isnt even part of this equation... the problem lies elsewhere... it doesnt.. the kids get drunk cheaply and quickly... then they fuck about doing stuff they shouldnt.

why do you guys need stats and studies to prove things all the time? I don't need a 48 page study by the World Health Organisation to tell me that putting my hand in a fire will burn me.... just as i don't need a study to tell me that Colombia has a higher percentage of cocaine addicts than most other countries due to the availability of the drug.. thats common sense and good judgment... just as I don't need a study to tell me that the reason 6 people died at the hands of a maniac was caused by the ease in which he acquired a legal weapon to kill those people.

dunkman

HeidiJam wrote:

he still stands wrote:

There have been studies that CORRELATE violence and gun ownership, but no CAUSALITY has ever been proven.

So, we could say easier access to guns lead to more violence, or it could mean that larger amounts of violence lead to a higher level of gun ownership for self defense, or any other independent cause.

There are also studies that have not found a correlation between the two, so until there is signicant scientific proof, please quit implying that it is self-evident that guns cause violence.

Also, just because some of us are "pro gun" doesn't mean that we're okay with all this violence in the world. For some reason anti-gun folks automatically make that leap. Personally, I think that violence of any kind is the result of mental health problems that are caused by a fabricated, toxic and viral society.

I posted earlier in here of countires with gun bans/control had a higher murder rate than their neighboring counties with no gun bans.

where was that post? I don't believe for one second that Scotland has a higher murder rate per capita than the US.

Godfather.

and for fucksakes man post a proposal on here,items 1 through what ever and lets vote on them instead of all this meaningless one sided babble.......dunk

Godfather.

dunkman

Godfather. wrote:

and for fucksakes man post a proposal on here,items 1 through what ever and lets vote on them instead of all this meaningless one sided babble.......dunk

Godfather.

dude... can i ask a question and please don't take offence, but do you actually contribute anything on this forum or do you just post diatribe to flame and incite? All your posts are incendiary and don't bring any reasoned logic to a debate. All you post is stuff like "you guys can cry all day but i'll never give up my gun"

what does that even contribute?

Blockhead

dunkman wrote:

HeidiJam wrote:

he still stands wrote:

There have been studies that CORRELATE violence and gun ownership, but no CAUSALITY has ever been proven.

So, we could say easier access to guns lead to more violence, or it could mean that larger amounts of violence lead to a higher level of gun ownership for self defense, or any other independent cause.

There are also studies that have not found a correlation between the two, so until there is signicant scientific proof, please quit implying that it is self-evident that guns cause violence.

Also, just because some of us are "pro gun" doesn't mean that we're okay with all this violence in the world. For some reason anti-gun folks automatically make that leap. Personally, I think that violence of any kind is the result of mental health problems that are caused by a fabricated, toxic and viral society.

I posted earlier in here of countires with gun bans/control had a higher murder rate than their neighboring counties with no gun bans.

where was that post? I don't believe for one second that Scotland has a higher murder rate per capita than the US.

Murder Rates of European Nations that Ban
Handguns as Compared to Their Neighbors that Allow Handguns
(rates are per 100,000 persons)
Nation Handgun Policy Murder Rate Year
A. Belarus banned 10.40 late 1990s
[Neighboring countries with gun law and murder rate data available]
Poland allowed 1.98 2003
Russia banned 20.54 2002
B. Luxembourg banned 9.01 2002
[Neighboring countries with gun law and murder rate data available]
Belgium allowed 1.70 late 1990s
France allowed 1.65 2003
Germany allowed 0.93 2003
C. Russia banned 20.54 2002
[Neighboring countries with gun law and murder rate data available]
Finland allowed 1.98 2004
Norway allowed 0.81 2001

polaris_x

dunkman wrote:

where was that post? I don't believe for one second that Scotland has a higher murder rate per capita than the US.

there's this ...

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_m ... per-capita

i am also interested in her proof ... i will start flipping thru the pages ...

polaris_x

HeidiJam wrote:

FACT: After Canada's 1977 gun controls prohibited handgun possession for self defense, the "breaking and entering" crime rate rose 25%, surpassing the U.S. rate.

* Pat Mayhew, Residential Burglary: A Comparison of the United States,

Canada and England and Wales (Nat'l Inst. Of Just., Wash., D.C., 1987)

MYTH: Japan has strict gun control and a less violent society.

FACT: In Japan, the murder rate is about 1 per 100,000. In the U.S., there are about 3.2 murders per 100,000 each year by weapons other than firearms.

* United Nations data


Therefore, if all of the firearms in the U.S. could magically be eliminated, we would still have three times the murder rate of Japan.

i am guessing this is her proof ... unfortunately, her source does not corroborate this ... as the nationmasters data i posted is from UN data ...

i suspect she got that from a pro-gun lobby website and liberties were taken as to what is considered fact ...

dunkman

no offence but Russia is a crime utopia.. just as I would expect Mexico to have a high murder rate... and to use Luxembourg is foolish... it has a population of 500,000 people... there would only need to be about 3 murders in a whole year and the stats would go through the roof.

mikepegg44

JonnyPistachio wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

Point to me a situation where lax gun control laws are the sole reason for crime and violence. As brought up before, vermont has extremely lax gun control laws, why aren't there shoot outs in the streets every day? maybe it is because guns aren't the problem...something else is causing it. Again, why punish those who aren't going to commit crimes with their weapons?

I believe the lax gun laws in Arizona caused several deaths a few weeks ago. There is no doubt in my mind that stricter laws would have saved a life or two that day. In 2004 the law limited magazine rounds to 10. That law expired, and the kid got mags with 30+ rounds. He purchased these things legally. He was tackled after the first mag of 30+ rounds were fired. Here's the math, 30 rounds = 6 dead. if he had 10 rounds = 2 dead. Stricter laws might have saved lives. Maybe a waiting peroid could have prolonged it a few months while someone finally realized that he was nuts in the interim.

Yuo might have a point with Vermont as I dont know much about it, but I am also under the impression that life is a little differnt in Vermont... A lot less people and a different culture. But I'm sure there are senseless shootings there from time to time, as there are in every other state.

flawed math. 10 rounds can = 10 dead. I don't think that anyone should be punished before laws have been broken. I should not be kept from enjoying things simply because a few cannot enjoy the same things responsibly...if he was limited to ten rounds maybe he buys 4 guns...seriously, at what point do you stop limiting things? nothing but muzzle loaders? muskets? how about nothing but sling shots ... no wait someone might hurt themselves

different culture is exactly the point...

he still stands

dunkman wrote:

i'm saying that that the ease and availability of a gun a significant factor on the US's extremely high homicide rates... surely thats a given? thats a common sense maths question...

Well, you can be all like "I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR DAMN SCIENCE! WHAT I BELIEVE IS TRUE!" but it won't be a very persuading argument for the rationalist. Maybe for the emotional/territorial, but not for the rationalist.

dunkman wrote:

its like the ease of attaining extremely cheap strong alcohol and in vast quantities plays a SIGNIFICANT factor in relation to the anti-social behaviour problems of UK teenagers... using your logic and the other pro-gunners then the alcohol isnt even part of this equation... the problem lies elsewhere... it doesnt.. the kids get drunk cheaply and quickly... then they fuck about doing stuff they shouldnt.

so you're a Prohibitionist?

Also, I'm not interested in hypotheticals. Reality is vexxing enough.

dunkman wrote:

why do you guys need stats and studies to prove things all the time? I don't need a 48 page study by the World Health Organisation to tell me that putting my hand in a fire will burn me.... just as i don't need a study to tell me that Colombia has a higher percentage of cocaine addicts than most other countries due to the availability of the drug.. thats common sense and good judgment... just as I don't need a study to tell me that the reason 6 people died at the hands of a maniac was caused by the ease in which he acquired a legal weapon to kill those people.

Yeah, let's not worry about science. :? Let's just worry about what we BELIEVE rather than the FACTS. That is about as convincing as the fundamentalist Christians' argument, and just as smart.

Blockhead

dunkman wrote:

i'm saying that that the ease and availability of a gun a significant factor on the US's extremely high homicide rates... surely thats a given? thats a common sense maths question...

its like the ease of attaining extremely cheap strong alcohol and in vast quantities plays a SIGNIFICANT factor in relation to the anti-social behaviour problems of UK teenagers... using your logic and the other pro-gunners then the alcohol isnt even part of this equation... the problem lies elsewhere... it doesnt.. the kids get drunk cheaply and quickly... then they fuck about doing stuff they shouldnt.

why do you guys need stats and studies to prove things all the time? I don't need a 48 page study by the World Health Organisation to tell me that putting my hand in a fire will burn me.... just as i don't need a study to tell me that Colombia has a higher percentage of cocaine addicts than most other countries due to the availability of the drug.. thats common sense and good judgment... just as I don't need a study to tell me that the reason 6 people died at the hands of a maniac was caused by the ease in which he acquired a legal weapon to kill those people.

No, we need stats/facts because it is not commen sense that gun bans work/ cause a drop in crime. Many people on here are wanting a handgun ban/control. But there aren't any stats that say GUNS = Violence as seen with UK's crime rate. You do need a study if you want to justify banning and taking away rights from law abiding citizens. Canada has a very high ammount of rapes, more per capita than the US. Do you suggest not allowing women to walk around after the street lights come one, as that will probably reduce in the ammount of rapes and keep people safe.

JonnyPistachio

Godfather. wrote:

and for fucksakes man post a proposal on here,items 1 through what ever and lets vote on them instead of all this meaningless one sided babble.......dunk

Godfather.

True Godfather, I think that there are two sides to this, and many of us will never see eye to eye. But thats why I asked the question (below). I cant imagine (or I just dont want to) even the biggest gun supporters would say that there isnt a problem with gun laws.

HeidiJam wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

What I really want answered by the gun rights folks is: do you think there is no problem with gun laws and things should continue as is?

Yes there is a problem with gun laws, I don't think anyone has argued that. My issue is that, people who are going to murder and committ crimes (criminals) will not follow any gun laws that we have, just look at our drug issues.

Heidijam I agree somewhat, but the AZ shooter actually did follow the laws. He got his gun legally. And maybe if there were 10 round mag limits, he would've killed fewer people. Some murderers honestly dont have the know-how to go out and get a gun on the street. But its good that we sometimes discuss the answers in here too. The future can be safer with all the new technology they could develop for gun safety.

I guess i keep bringing this up though because I feel this huge divide between pro-gun and anti-gun people, but in our hearts I hope that we all can come together and realize that there is a problem with the current gun laws and if something is done, sensless murders might be avoided.

But I also know that there are deeper issues, and mental instability is a problem. But what dunk and many others like us are arguing is that they're too readily available.