Having to do anything extra is a punishment, all that stuff may seem like a very simple process to you, but I can tell you as a government employee, nothing is easy and painless when it comes to dealing with our government...it is a response to what a minority of people cannot handle that makes it harder for law abiding citizens to go through life.
I understand what you're saying, and belive me it is a concern to me. I dont want responsible people to be inconvenienced too much, but a few extra hoops to jump through is a decent trade off if a few innocent lives could be saved. No offense, but it sounds a little selfish to me that someone feels "punished" by this. Nobody here is rubbing thier hands together feeling happy that responsible people are being inconvenienced. We are just concerened about gun misuse and innocent deaths. I wouldnt call stricter laws punishment. I have to take an annoying test and wait in a long lines to get a drivers license. I dont call that punishment (feels like it at the DMV though ) I gotta register my car with an annoying process. its a compromise, not a punishment.
quote from emmi; "Wanting to change the world is a bad thing now? Fair enough, not everyone wants to change it for the better, but some (dare I say most) people do! People want to puts laws in place that could save lives and you (not specifically only you) just sit there and dismiss it with a simple "bad guys are gonna do bad stuff" or "don't take away my rights!".
you have no idea what you're talking about(not specifically only you)this ain't the high school student council.
it's (not specifically only you) people with your way of thinking that choke this country with dumb-ass laws that do little to solve any problem and you(not specifically only you) sit there and say "we will be safe from bad guys if we make another law" or "please make another law to limit my rights a little more"
ub-un-fucking-be-liev-aaable-yo-dam-self !......
Godfather.
this highlights my point... if someone can't even use the basic fucking quote function on a forum then they certainly shouldnt be allowed to own a gun.
nice one dunk....but I have to think that if you use the highlights point on a computer vs. a weapon then you have just told me you have run out of ammunition and not only an empty pipe but nothing to put in it.
now are we having fun yet ?
I have to take an annoying test and wait in a long lines to get a drivers license. I dont call that punishment (feels like it at the DMV though ) I gotta register my car with an annoying process. its a compromise, not a punishment.
I don't recall any amendments in the constitution protecting your right to drive.
Also to get a LTCF (License To Carry Firearm) at least in PA requires me to make a trip to the police station where they do a background check (It takes a few weeks) Then I need to go to the county court house and pay some money and they give me my permit. So I do need a Licenses to conceal carry my weapon, and even then I can't carry any rifles that just handguns.
I didn't read all the post on here but has anybody made the point the shooting guns is a recreational activity in addition to all its other uses. That is my main purpose of owning and shooting guns. I find it most enjoyable to go to the range and practice shooting its challenging and fun and good cheap way to spend an afternoon! Lucky for me in PA they have gun ranges in some of the state parks so you don't need to pay money to join a place. There are rangers that will stop by every once in awhile but mostly its just run by the people.
Generally PA is considering fairly good when it comes to not restricting people 2nd amendment rights however we do need to get some real castle doctrine maybe now that we have a republican governor.
Having to do anything extra is a punishment, all that stuff may seem like a very simple process to you, but I can tell you as a government employee, nothing is easy and painless when it comes to dealing with our government...it is a response to what a minority of people cannot handle that makes it harder for law abiding citizens to go through life.
I understand what you're saying, and belive me it is a concern to me. I dont want responsible people to be inconvenienced too much, but a few extra hoops to jump through is a decent trade off if a few innocent lives could be saved. No offense, but it sounds a little selfish to me that someone feels "punished" by this. Nobody here is rubbing thier hands together feeling happy that responsible people are being inconvenienced. We are just concerened about gun misuse and innocent deaths. I wouldnt call stricter laws punishment. I have to take an annoying test and wait in a long lines to get a drivers license. I dont call that punishment (feels like it at the DMV though ) I gotta register my car with an annoying process. its a compromise, not a punishment.
but you don't have your car limited, you don't have your right to own any car you want limited, you don't have to wait x amount of days to buy a car...on and on, and car accidents are much more prevalent than gun crimes. There is also much more irresponsible car use than gun use in this country...innocent lives will always be lost, it is horribly sad. But i don't think more government involvement and expense is the way to solve it. I just wish people would act like grown ups...which seems about as effective as the government is at stopping violence!
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
I have to take an annoying test and wait in a long lines to get a drivers license. I dont call that punishment (feels like it at the DMV though ) I gotta register my car with an annoying process. its a compromise, not a punishment.
I don't recall any amendments in the constitution protecting your right to drive.
Also to get a LTCF (License To Carry Firearm) at least in PA requires me to make a trip to the police station where they do a background check (It takes a few weeks) Then I need to go to the county court house and pay some money and they give me my permit. So I do need a Licenses to conceal carry my weapon, and even then I can't carry any rifles that just handguns.
I didn't read all the post on here but has anybody made the point the shooting guns is a recreational activity in addition to all its other uses. That is my main purpose of owning and shooting guns. I find it most enjoyable to go to the range and practice shooting its challenging and fun and good cheap way to spend an afternoon! Lucky for me in PA they have gun ranges in some of the state parks so you don't need to pay money to join a place. There are rangers that will stop by every once in awhile but mostly its just run by the people.
Generally PA is considering fairly good when it comes to not restricting people 2nd amendment rights however we do need to get some real castle doctrine maybe now that we have a republican governor.
hey I didn't write that!!!!
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Having to do anything extra is a punishment, all that stuff may seem like a very simple process to you, but I can tell you as a government employee, nothing is easy and painless when it comes to dealing with our government...it is a response to what a minority of people cannot handle that makes it harder for law abiding citizens to go through life.
I understand what you're saying, and belive me it is a concern to me. I dont want responsible people to be inconvenienced too much, but a few extra hoops to jump through is a decent trade off if a few innocent lives could be saved. No offense, but it sounds a little selfish to me that someone feels "punished" by this. Nobody here is rubbing thier hands together feeling happy that responsible people are being inconvenienced. We are just concerened about gun misuse and innocent deaths. I wouldnt call stricter laws punishment. I have to take an annoying test and wait in a long lines to get a drivers license. I dont call that punishment (feels like it at the DMV though ) I gotta register my car with an annoying process. its a compromise, not a punishment.
but you don't have your car limited, you don't have your right to own any car you want limited, you don't have to wait x amount of days to buy a car...on and on, and car accidents are much more prevalent than gun crimes. There is also much more irresponsible car use than gun use in this country...innocent lives will always be lost, it is horribly sad. But i don't think more government involvement and expense is the way to solve it. I just wish people would act like grown ups...which seems about as effective as the government is at stopping violence!
Ok good points, I was just pointing out that we do have to compromise some things as times change. I'm just trying to determine why more regulations on guns can be considered punishment to some. I just dont see it that way. Again, I guess we all have opinions and we can agree to disagree...
And actually, my car is limited in many ways because of the government.
And i agree that it is not a way to solve it, but some stricter regulations on guns are a small step in saving lives.
Whatsgoingon, i'm glad they have stricter laws (background checks) in PA, but from what I understand, Arizona has some of the most relaxed gun laws in the country.
I understand what you're saying, and belive me it is a concern to me. I dont want responsible people to be inconvenienced too much, but a few extra hoops to jump through is a decent trade off if a few innocent lives could be saved. No offense, but it sounds a little selfish to me that someone feels "punished" by this. Nobody here is rubbing thier hands together feeling happy that responsible people are being inconvenienced. We are just concerened about gun misuse and innocent deaths. I wouldnt call stricter laws punishment. I have to take an annoying test and wait in a long lines to get a drivers license. I dont call that punishment (feels like it at the DMV though ) I gotta register my car with an annoying process. its a compromise, not a punishment.
but you don't have your car limited, you don't have your right to own any car you want limited, you don't have to wait x amount of days to buy a car...on and on, and car accidents are much more prevalent than gun crimes. There is also much more irresponsible car use than gun use in this country...innocent lives will always be lost, it is horribly sad. But i don't think more government involvement and expense is the way to solve it. I just wish people would act like grown ups...which seems about as effective as the government is at stopping violence!
Ok good points, I was just pointing out that we do have to compromise some things as times change. I'm just trying to determine why more regulations on guns can be considered punishment to some. I just dont see it that way. Again, I guess we all have opinions and we can agree to disagree...
And actually, my car is limited in many ways because of the government.
And i agree that it is not a way to solve it, but some stricter regulations on guns are a small step in saving lives.
Whatsgoingon, i'm glad they have stricter laws (background checks) in PA, but from what I understand, Arizona has some of the most relaxed gun laws in the country.
I can certainly respect the idea that we need to fix the violence problem, I can even respect the idea that gun owners need to be held responsible for their actions, or inactions, when it comes to gun safety and responsibility...i just don't know how to accomplish it without severely limiting the rights of those who act responsibly...and I am not ok with that.
I mean, if you wanted to eliminate a giant amount of crime why don't we just make it illegal to go out at night and anyone who is out at night gets arrested. sun down is the new cerfew, that would do it, but I sure think most people would not want to have their right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness limited.
I realize that is an extreme example, maybe we should just arm wrestle or play trivial pursuit and get this solved once and for all!!!
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Ok good points, I was just pointing out that we do have to compromise some things as times change. I'm just trying to determine why more regulations on guns can be considered punishment to some. I just dont see it that way. Again, I guess we all have opinions and we can agree to disagree...
And actually, my car is limited in many ways because of the government.
And i agree that it is not a way to solve it, but some stricter regulations on guns are a small step in saving lives.
Whatsgoingon, i'm glad they have stricter laws (background checks) in PA, but from what I understand, Arizona has some of the most relaxed gun laws in the country.
You make good points but the gun-rights groups view regulations as a slippery slope, mainly due to propaganda distributed by the NRA. I remember when legislation was passed to include a $2 lock with the purchase of a gun, there was a huge uproar. God forbid that gun companies are forced to add a lock that could prevent a child from a horrible accident. And if you don't like them, just throw it away. But I remember at the time it was considered to be an attack on our rights and was condemned and fought by the NRA.
Politicians are very afraid of the NRA, thus it is hard to even propose reasonable legislation on gun control without having the wolves released upon you.
Having to do anything extra is a punishment, all that stuff may seem like a very simple process to you, but I can tell you as a government employee, nothing is easy and painless when it comes to dealing with our government...it is a response to what a minority of people cannot handle that makes it harder for law abiding citizens to go through life.
I understand what you're saying, and belive me it is a concern to me. I dont want responsible people to be inconvenienced too much, but a few extra hoops to jump through is a decent trade off if a few innocent lives could be saved. No offense, but it sounds a little selfish to me that someone feels "punished" by this. Nobody here is rubbing thier hands together feeling happy that responsible people are being inconvenienced. We are just concerened about gun misuse and innocent deaths. I wouldnt call stricter laws punishment. I have to take an annoying test and wait in a long lines to get a drivers license. I dont call that punishment (feels like it at the DMV though ) I gotta register my car with an annoying process. its a compromise, not a punishment.
but you don't have your car limited, you don't have your right to own any car you want limited, you don't have to wait x amount of days to buy a car......!
The car 'comparison' again :roll: Owning and/or driving is not a 'right'. Though I agree with you - if you have the money upfront , anyone can buy any vehicle and be the legal owner (I guess you need to have reached majority though?). So true - your choice of purchasing a vehicle is not restricted. Of course you have to go through the 'punishment' of registration and insurance (just to keep things legal).
But... in order to drive that car, you need to learn to drive, PASS the tests and OBTAIN your license. You have different types of licenses which legally allow you to drive certain types of vehicles, and only those. Your license needs to be renewed, tests retaken and this license can be taken away from you if you develop certain medical conditions.
The above are 'safeguards' to ensure you are 'fit' to use your vehicle as it is meant to be used and there are clear and transparent processes to revoke this privilege. Are all these steps 'punishment' and in ' response to what a minority of people cannot handle that makes it harder for law abiding citizens to go through life.'?
Two shootings mentioned in this thread were by people legally owning their weapons. Both had known mental issues but were never sent to the looney bin or were never convicted of a crime, therefore they were clear. You CAN have a criminal record and still get a gun legally. For example, you can be arrested for say, domestic violence, even several times, but if doesn't go to court or even if it does go to court but charges are dropped - often the case in domestic violence as the victim would rather not be witnesses - you're clear for the 'law abiding citizen' gun ownership. It would seem it's easier to get a gun than it is to get a driver license.
Restrictions are placed on us every day, by law. Seriously tightening up gun laws would save lives
Restrictions are placed on us every day, by law. Seriously tightening up gun laws would save lives
It might save lives caused from gun crime, but not save lives from vilent crime. As seen by UK's higher violence crime rate. Are you concerned abount saving lives or jsut those that are killed by a gun?
Restrictions are placed on us every day, by law. Seriously tightening up gun laws would save lives
It might save lives caused from gun crime, but not save lives from vilent crime. As seen by UK's higher violence crime rate. Are you concerned abount saving lives or jsut those that are killed by a gun?
If the concern is saving lives then it is surely the 'murder' rate and not the 'violent crime' rate that matters. The UK may have a higher violent crime but the US has a higher murder rate.
From the stats you posted previously
Murder: US .043 - UK .014 - Aus .015
So with guns banned even though the UK has more violent crime it has a 1/3 of the murder rate ... which would suggest that yes banning guns can save lives.
So are we strangers now? Like rock and roll and the radio?
Restrictions are placed on us every day, by law. Seriously tightening up gun laws would save lives
It might save lives caused from gun crime, but not save lives from vilent crime. As seen by UK's higher violence crime rate. Are you concerned abount saving lives or jsut those that are killed by a gun?
If the concern is saving lives then it is surely the 'murder' rate and not the 'violent crime' rate that matters. The UK may have a higher violent crime but the US has a higher murder rate.
From the stats you posted previously
Murder: US .043 - UK .014 - Aus .015
So with guns banned even though the UK has more violent crime it has a 1/3 of the murder rate ... which would suggest that yes banning guns can save lives.
Your right because murders will stop being criminals once guns are banned.
It might save lives caused from gun crime, but not save lives from vilent crime. As seen by UK's higher violence crime rate. Are you concerned abount saving lives or jsut those that are killed by a gun?
If the concern is saving lives then it is surely the 'murder' rate and not the 'violent crime' rate that matters. The UK may have a higher violent crime but the US has a higher murder rate.
From the stats you posted previously
Murder: US .043 - UK .014 - Aus .015
So with guns banned even though the UK has more violent crime it has a 1/3 of the murder rate ... which would suggest that yes banning guns can save lives.
Your right because murders will stop being criminals once guns are banned.
No one said they would stop being criminals but your question was about saving lives :?
So are we strangers now? Like rock and roll and the radio?
quote from emmi; "Wanting to change the world is a bad thing now? Fair enough, not everyone wants to change it for the better, but some (dare I say most) people do! People want to puts laws in place that could save lives and you (not specifically only you) just sit there and dismiss it with a simple "bad guys are gonna do bad stuff" or "don't take away my rights!".
you have no idea what you're talking about(not specifically only you)this ain't the high school student council.
it's (not specifically only you) people with your way of thinking that choke this country with dumb-ass laws that do little to solve any problem and you(not specifically only you) sit there and say "we will be safe from bad guys if we make another law" or "please make another law to limit my rights a little more"
ub-un-fucking-be-liev-aaable-yo-dam-self !......
Godfather.
As the matter of fact, I do have an idea of what I'm talking about. If nothing else, I know damn well that people where I live aren't going around shooting other people after a bad day, cause they happened to have a gun in the closet, and I know that our gun laws are to thank for that.
Nobody is completely safe from bad guys, not unless you live on your very own remote island in the middle of nowhere, but why make the bad guys' job so much easier?
"Don't be faint-hearted, I have a solution! We shall go and commandeer some small craft, then drift at leisure until we happen upon another ideal place for our waterside supper with riparian entertainments."
As the matter of fact, I do have an idea of what I'm talking about. If nothing else, I know damn well that people where I live aren't going around shooting other people after a bad day, cause they happened to have a gun in the closet, and I know that our gun laws are to thank for that.
Nobody is completely safe from bad guys, not unless you live on your very own remote island in the middle of nowhere, but why make the bad guys' job so much easier?
quote from emmi; "Wanting to change the world is a bad thing now? Fair enough, not everyone wants to change it for the better, but some (dare I say most) people do! People want to puts laws in place that could save lives and you (not specifically only you) just sit there and dismiss it with a simple "bad guys are gonna do bad stuff" or "don't take away my rights!".
you have no idea what you're talking about(not specifically only you)this ain't the high school student council.
it's (not specifically only you) people with your way of thinking that choke this country with dumb-ass laws that do little to solve any problem and you(not specifically only you) sit there and say "we will be safe from bad guys if we make another law" or "please make another law to limit my rights a little more"
ub-un-fucking-be-liev-aaable-yo-dam-self !......
Godfather.
As the matter of fact, I do have an idea of what I'm talking about. If nothing else, I know damn well that people where I live aren't going around shooting other people after a bad day, cause they happened to have a gun in the closet, and I know that our gun laws are to thank for that.
Nobody is completely safe from bad guys, not unless you live on your very own remote island in the middle of nowhere, but why make the bad guys' job so much easier?
I just have a hard time with laws that limit my access to anything because of the bad guys, it should be tougher on the bad guys not the good guys,crap a murderer can be sentenced to as little as 5 years in prison and to own and carry a concealed weapon I have to jump through hoops and pay money just for that right then if i use the weapon to protect myself and the attacker lives he can sue me, things are crazy as far as the laws go,maybe we should straighten out and fix the existing laws first to be harder on the bag guys and not the good guys.
Yes because prohibition has stopped all the people for taking illegal drugs, nobody drank liquor when that was prohibited and, not a single abortion was preformed when they were illegal. The anti-gun people do know we already have laws about not murdering people so if criminals aren't going to follow that law what makes you think they will follow gun laws. The only thing you would be doing would be handicapping honest law abiding people which most gun owners are in the country.
I just have a hard time with laws that limit my access to anything because of the bad guys, it should be tougher on the bad guys not the good guys,crap a murderer can be sentenced to as little as 5 years in prison and to own and carry a concealed weapon I have to jump through hoops and pay money just for that right then if i use the weapon to protect myself and the attacker lives he can sue me, things are crazy as far as the laws go,maybe we should straighten out and fix the existing laws first to be harder on the bag guys and not the good guys.
Godfather.
All states should a good castle doctrine law, we have been trying to get this passed in PA for years now. We finally got one threw but governor Rendell voted it hard during his lame duck session. This law would have finally made it illegal for an attacker or his family to try and sue you if you your weapon in self defense and also would have eliminated the duty to retreat outside of the home ( Closing the why is my life more important inside my house then when I walk outside to get the mail gap). Hopefully with the pro-gun governor PA residents will finally get the ability to protect their property, family, and others with out fear of being sued into bankruptcy.
I would argue that if you really want to save lives make all drugs legal to buy and purchase but I am pretty sure that is a different forum topic.
As the matter of fact, I do have an idea of what I'm talking about. If nothing else, I know damn well that people where I live aren't going around shooting other people after a bad day, cause they happened to have a gun in the closet, and I know that our gun laws are to thank for that.
Nobody is completely safe from bad guys, not unless you live on your very own remote island in the middle of nowhere, but why make the bad guys' job so much easier?
Fair enough, but as others have pointed out, this thread is about guns, gun crime and guns used to kill people. :think:
"Don't be faint-hearted, I have a solution! We shall go and commandeer some small craft, then drift at leisure until we happen upon another ideal place for our waterside supper with riparian entertainments."
As the matter of fact, I do have an idea of what I'm talking about. If nothing else, I know damn well that people where I live aren't going around shooting other people after a bad day, cause they happened to have a gun in the closet, and I know that our gun laws are to thank for that.
Nobody is completely safe from bad guys, not unless you live on your very own remote island in the middle of nowhere, but why make the bad guys' job so much easier?
Fair enough, but as others have pointed out, this thread is about guns, gun crime and guns used to kill people. :think:
Here is an interesting article that basically states as more guns are being owned by law abiding citizens and less gun sticker gun laws go into effect crime rates are actually decreasing http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets ... &issue=007
I would also say if you want to decrees mass shooting you may want to look at our mental health system and realize that is what failed in the AZ. I am pretty sure nobody thinks a mentally unstable person should have any weapon. But at least this time in AZ it was just a gun and he didn't load a car with explosive drive into the congress women and blow up the car/supermarket.
It might save lives caused from gun crime, but not save lives from vilent crime. As seen by UK's higher violence crime rate. Are you concerned abount saving lives or jsut those that are killed by a gun?
If the concern is saving lives then it is surely the 'murder' rate and not the 'violent crime' rate that matters. The UK may have a higher violent crime but the US has a higher murder rate.
From the stats you posted previously
Murder: US .043 - UK .014 - Aus .015
So with guns banned even though the UK has more violent crime it has a 1/3 of the murder rate ... which would suggest that yes banning guns can save lives.
Your right because murders will stop being criminals once guns are banned.
Gun related crime is included in violent crime, and I think this thread is about guns, isn't it? 'Violent' crime is also reported differently. In the UK, an affray is reported as a violent crime, even if no one is injured. In other European countries, someone has to be treated in hospital before an affray is reported as serious crime. In no way am I trying to find excuses to violence but this is to put things in perspective.
I will not repost Dunk's statistics ref gun crime which confirm the highest rate of deaths due to firearms is in the US.
I would also say if you want to decrees mass shooting you may want to look at our mental health system and realize that is what failed in the AZ. I am pretty sure nobody thinks a mentally unstable person should have any weapon. .
But wouldn't that mean much tighter and more stringent controls? Wouldn't that be 'punishing' others (your law abiding citizen), making much harder to exercise their 'right' to own a gun? Is that not an infringement on their rights?
What happens if you get the all clear to purchase firearms, seeing you are a good citizen and mentally stable but then you start having 'issues' (say depression/a breakdown). Does the doctor notify an 'authority' to let them know you are no longer fit to own a firearm. Just like a driver's license can be revoked due to infractions/illness, etc.? Would that also be infringing one's rights?
As the matter of fact, I do have an idea of what I'm talking about. If nothing else, I know damn well that people where I live aren't going around shooting other people after a bad day, cause they happened to have a gun in the closet, and I know that our gun laws are to thank for that.
Nobody is completely safe from bad guys, not unless you live on your very own remote island in the middle of nowhere, but why make the bad guys' job so much easier?
Let's look at proper statistics. Crime is all reported actions that are against the law (illegal download/piracy is included - who of us isn't guilty of that :? ). GUN laws will impact on GUN crime.
See here (same site as you quoted) - let's look at GUN crime... yes the US is at #8 and does Finland rank (or the UK for that matter)? Hmmm... not sure, the list goes to #32 and neither are on it.
Now that this is clearer, if you wish to discuss crime in general (but like for like nevertheless), that can be done as well but maybe in a different thread which is not about GUNS.
I would also say if you want to decrees mass shooting you may want to look at our mental health system and realize that is what failed in the AZ. I am pretty sure nobody thinks a mentally unstable person should have any weapon. .
But wouldn't that mean much tighter and more stringent controls? Wouldn't that be 'punishing' others (your law abiding citizen), making much harder to exercise their 'right' to own a gun? Is that not an infringement on their rights?
What happens if you get the all clear to purchase firearms, seeing you are a good citizen and mentally stable but then you start having 'issues' (say depression/a breakdown). Does the doctor notify an 'authority' to let them know you are no longer fit to own a firearm. Just like a driver's license can be revoked due to infractions/illness, etc.? Would that also be infringing one's rights?
The problem most people see is its hard to define "Mentally Unstable". There are obvious cases such as the one in AZ. But if I am really stressed at work and having depression does that define me as mentally unstable. You also have to look at all the state mentally hospitals that are closing through the country and amount of prisons that being built. Just knowing a few people that work as physiologist at prison systems they basically claim that the prison system is not only housing dangerous criminals but also replacement for the mentally ill. The other issue is privacy laws and anybody in the US has heard of HIPAA laws. Once the school noted he was mentally ill then he should have been able to at least be evaluated by a trained professional. I don't know if that option was giving to him ( anybody know?) but it certianly didn't happen because any professional would have seen he was going to do harm to himself and others and notified the authorities.
In the end I don't mind having an instant background check since there is no reason for it to take any longer its all on a computer and can be done that way. If they queried a little more information about me I fine with that as well. Where I have the real problem is where I have to wait/ make multiple trips to places during government hours (hey I work a 9-5 job), and when you try to ban things.
...so if criminals aren't going to follow that law what makes you think they will follow gun laws. The only thing you would be doing would be handicapping honest law abiding people which most gun owners are in the country.
A good number of mass shootings/killing sprees in the US were committed by law abiding citizens who were not criminals but just happened to have access to a legally owned gun (either theirs one belonging to a parent/ spouse/partner) when they flipped.
As the matter of fact, I do have an idea of what I'm talking about. If nothing else, I know damn well that people where I live aren't going around shooting other people after a bad day, cause they happened to have a gun in the closet, and I know that our gun laws are to thank for that.
Nobody is completely safe from bad guys, not unless you live on your very own remote island in the middle of nowhere, but why make the bad guys' job so much easier?
The problem most people see is its hard to define "Mentally Unstable". There are obvious cases such as the one in AZ. But if I am really stressed at work and having depression does that define me as mentally unstable. You also have to look at all the state mentally hospitals that are closing through the country and amount of prisons that being built. Just knowing a few people that work as physiologist at prison systems they basically claim that the prison system is not only housing dangerous criminals but also replacement for the mentally ill. The other issue is privacy laws and anybody in the US has heard of HIPAA laws. Once the school noted he was mentally ill then he should have been able to at least be evaluated by a trained professional. I don't know if that option was giving to him ( anybody know?) but it certianly didn't happen because any professional would have seen he was going to do harm to himself and others and notified the authorities.
In the end I don't mind having an instant background check since there is no reason for it to take any longer its all on a computer and can be done that way. If they queried a little more information about me I fine with that as well. Where I have the real problem is where I have to wait/ make multiple trips to places during government hours (hey I work a 9-5 job), and when you try to ban things.
Depression is considered a mental illness. Could that make you unstable? Maybe? The AZ case seems obvious, but for gun control reasons, it's not. The school noted he had issues but no diagnostic of mental illness - that's not their job. Even if the authorities are notified, if a person has not been officially 'institutionalised' (ie put in a mental institution), then this person can still get a gun.
Instant background checks don't mean anything. As I said, unless you have been convicted of certain serious crimes (not just arrested and charged) or have been a 'guest' at a mental institution and it's on your record, your scot-free. Waiting times can avoid 'spur of the moment' thoughts/actions. Maybe making several trips during working hours could also be a deterrent.
As the matter of fact, I do have an idea of what I'm talking about. If nothing else, I know damn well that people where I live aren't going around shooting other people after a bad day, cause they happened to have a gun in the closet, and I know that our gun laws are to thank for that.
Nobody is completely safe from bad guys, not unless you live on your very own remote island in the middle of nowhere, but why make the bad guys' job so much easier?
Let's look at proper statistics. Crime is all reported actions that are against the law (illegal download/piracy is included - who of us isn't guilty of that :? ). GUN laws will impact on GUN crime.
See here (same site as you quoted) - let's look at GUN crime... yes the US is at #8 and does Finland rank (or the UK for that matter)? Hmmm... not sure, the list goes to #32 and neither are on it.
Now that this is clearer, if you wish to discuss crime in general (but like for like nevertheless), that can be done as well but maybe in a different thread which is not about GUNS.
Somebody check a verify my Math below I am lazy. thx!
I if read that right is say 3.6 people die for 100,000 person so extending those numbers it is 3600 people for every 100 million people. I am thinking that's really not that bad. So a quick google tell me there are 307,006,550 people in the US so more math tells me that there about 10800 gun related deaths in the US every year. With out looking to hard the internets says in 2008 (Most recent item in the first search result) There were 13,846 alcohol related driving fatalities. That is about 3K more then gun related deaths so I am not sure why people are up and arms about guns and how bad they are.
so I am not sure why people are up and arms about guns and how bad they are.
for starters, I am just sad that the gun laws in AZ were so lax that a 9 year old died along with 5 others. I think the magazine limits is a start. There's no telling if it would've helped, but I personally dont think that is too much of an inconvenience, and its worth a try. There's gotta be something we can do to minimize the needless murders. It might start with identifying the mental problems of potential aggresors, but in conjunction with stricter gun laws, maybe innocent lives could be saved. Why arent the laws in AZ as strict as PA? I dont know. I dont have the answers, but it cant hurt to discuss a compromise. I'm sure these discussions about gun laws are going on all around the US now, sadly they are usually in response to these heinous crimes.
It also seems like these 'whackos' are snapping more and more lately. I just think we need to get with the times and do something before another 9 year old innocent girl is gunned down in a parking lot. to me, 1 of these cases is enough to raise a red flag and discuss a compromise in gun laws. Its probably true though, not much will change because of politicians fears of NRa and such..
Fair enough, but as others have pointed out, this thread is about guns, gun crime and guns used to kill people. :think:
ha ha you already stepped passed the safty zone and you can't go back
thats the LAW !!!
Godfather.
I'm not going back on anything, this thread is about guns (gun related crime, murder etc.) and that's that.
And like redrock already said, in gun crime, US ranks way higher than Finland.
"Don't be faint-hearted, I have a solution! We shall go and commandeer some small craft, then drift at leisure until we happen upon another ideal place for our waterside supper with riparian entertainments."
Comments
I understand what you're saying, and belive me it is a concern to me. I dont want responsible people to be inconvenienced too much, but a few extra hoops to jump through is a decent trade off if a few innocent lives could be saved. No offense, but it sounds a little selfish to me that someone feels "punished" by this. Nobody here is rubbing thier hands together feeling happy that responsible people are being inconvenienced. We are just concerened about gun misuse and innocent deaths. I wouldnt call stricter laws punishment. I have to take an annoying test and wait in a long lines to get a drivers license. I dont call that punishment (feels like it at the DMV though
now are we having fun yet ?
Godfather.
I don't recall any amendments in the constitution protecting your right to drive.
Also to get a LTCF (License To Carry Firearm) at least in PA requires me to make a trip to the police station where they do a background check (It takes a few weeks) Then I need to go to the county court house and pay some money and they give me my permit. So I do need a Licenses to conceal carry my weapon, and even then I can't carry any rifles that just handguns.
I didn't read all the post on here but has anybody made the point the shooting guns is a recreational activity in addition to all its other uses. That is my main purpose of owning and shooting guns. I find it most enjoyable to go to the range and practice shooting its challenging and fun and good cheap way to spend an afternoon! Lucky for me in PA they have gun ranges in some of the state parks so you don't need to pay money to join a place. There are rangers that will stop by every once in awhile but mostly its just run by the people.
Generally PA is considering fairly good when it comes to not restricting people 2nd amendment rights however we do need to get some real castle doctrine maybe now that we have a republican governor.
but you don't have your car limited, you don't have your right to own any car you want limited, you don't have to wait x amount of days to buy a car...on and on, and car accidents are much more prevalent than gun crimes. There is also much more irresponsible car use than gun use in this country...innocent lives will always be lost, it is horribly sad. But i don't think more government involvement and expense is the way to solve it. I just wish people would act like grown ups...which seems about as effective as the government is at stopping violence!
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
hey I didn't write that!!!!
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Ok good points, I was just pointing out that we do have to compromise some things as times change. I'm just trying to determine why more regulations on guns can be considered punishment to some. I just dont see it that way. Again, I guess we all have opinions and we can agree to disagree...
And actually, my car is limited in many ways because of the government.
And i agree that it is not a way to solve it, but some stricter regulations on guns are a small step in saving lives.
Whatsgoingon, i'm glad they have stricter laws (background checks) in PA, but from what I understand, Arizona has some of the most relaxed gun laws in the country.
I can certainly respect the idea that we need to fix the violence problem, I can even respect the idea that gun owners need to be held responsible for their actions, or inactions, when it comes to gun safety and responsibility...i just don't know how to accomplish it without severely limiting the rights of those who act responsibly...and I am not ok with that.
I mean, if you wanted to eliminate a giant amount of crime why don't we just make it illegal to go out at night and anyone who is out at night gets arrested. sun down is the new cerfew, that would do it, but I sure think most people would not want to have their right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness limited.
I realize that is an extreme example, maybe we should just arm wrestle or play trivial pursuit and get this solved once and for all!!!
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
You make good points but the gun-rights groups view regulations as a slippery slope, mainly due to propaganda distributed by the NRA. I remember when legislation was passed to include a $2 lock with the purchase of a gun, there was a huge uproar. God forbid that gun companies are forced to add a lock that could prevent a child from a horrible accident. And if you don't like them, just throw it away. But I remember at the time it was considered to be an attack on our rights and was condemned and fought by the NRA.
Politicians are very afraid of the NRA, thus it is hard to even propose reasonable legislation on gun control without having the wolves released upon you.
The car 'comparison' again :roll: Owning and/or driving is not a 'right'. Though I agree with you - if you have the money upfront , anyone can buy any vehicle and be the legal owner (I guess you need to have reached majority though?). So true - your choice of purchasing a vehicle is not restricted. Of course you have to go through the 'punishment' of registration and insurance (just to keep things legal).
But... in order to drive that car, you need to learn to drive, PASS the tests and OBTAIN your license. You have different types of licenses which legally allow you to drive certain types of vehicles, and only those. Your license needs to be renewed, tests retaken and this license can be taken away from you if you develop certain medical conditions.
The above are 'safeguards' to ensure you are 'fit' to use your vehicle as it is meant to be used and there are clear and transparent processes to revoke this privilege. Are all these steps 'punishment' and in ' response to what a minority of people cannot handle that makes it harder for law abiding citizens to go through life.'?
Two shootings mentioned in this thread were by people legally owning their weapons. Both had known mental issues but were never sent to the looney bin or were never convicted of a crime, therefore they were clear. You CAN have a criminal record and still get a gun legally. For example, you can be arrested for say, domestic violence, even several times, but if doesn't go to court or even if it does go to court but charges are dropped - often the case in domestic violence as the victim would rather not be witnesses - you're clear for the 'law abiding citizen' gun ownership. It would seem it's easier to get a gun than it is to get a driver license.
Restrictions are placed on us every day, by law. Seriously tightening up gun laws would save lives
If the concern is saving lives then it is surely the 'murder' rate and not the 'violent crime' rate that matters. The UK may have a higher violent crime but the US has a higher murder rate.
From the stats you posted previously
Murder: US .043 - UK .014 - Aus .015
So with guns banned even though the UK has more violent crime it has a 1/3 of the murder rate ... which would suggest that yes banning guns can save lives.
No one said they would stop being criminals but your question was about saving lives :?
As the matter of fact, I do have an idea of what I'm talking about. If nothing else, I know damn well that people where I live aren't going around shooting other people after a bad day, cause they happened to have a gun in the closet, and I know that our gun laws are to thank for that.
Nobody is completely safe from bad guys, not unless you live on your very own remote island in the middle of nowhere, but why make the bad guys' job so much easier?
looks like gun laws are not decreasing your crime.
I just have a hard time with laws that limit my access to anything because of the bad guys, it should be tougher on the bad guys not the good guys,crap a murderer can be sentenced to as little as 5 years in prison and to own and carry a concealed weapon I have to jump through hoops and pay money just for that right then if i use the weapon to protect myself and the attacker lives he can sue me, things are crazy as far as the laws go,maybe we should straighten out and fix the existing laws first to be harder on the bag guys and not the good guys.
Godfather.
All states should a good castle doctrine law, we have been trying to get this passed in PA for years now. We finally got one threw but governor Rendell voted it hard during his lame duck session. This law would have finally made it illegal for an attacker or his family to try and sue you if you your weapon in self defense and also would have eliminated the duty to retreat outside of the home ( Closing the why is my life more important inside my house then when I walk outside to get the mail gap). Hopefully with the pro-gun governor PA residents will finally get the ability to protect their property, family, and others with out fear of being sued into bankruptcy.
I would argue that if you really want to save lives make all drugs legal to buy and purchase but I am pretty sure that is a different forum topic.
Fair enough, but as others have pointed out, this thread is about guns, gun crime and guns used to kill people. :think:
Here is an interesting article that basically states as more guns are being owned by law abiding citizens and less gun sticker gun laws go into effect crime rates are actually decreasing
http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets ... &issue=007
I would also say if you want to decrees mass shooting you may want to look at our mental health system and realize that is what failed in the AZ. I am pretty sure nobody thinks a mentally unstable person should have any weapon. But at least this time in AZ it was just a gun and he didn't load a car with explosive drive into the congress women and blow up the car/supermarket.
Gun related crime is included in violent crime, and I think this thread is about guns, isn't it? 'Violent' crime is also reported differently. In the UK, an affray is reported as a violent crime, even if no one is injured. In other European countries, someone has to be treated in hospital before an affray is reported as serious crime. In no way am I trying to find excuses to violence but this is to put things in perspective.
I will not repost Dunk's statistics ref gun crime which confirm the highest rate of deaths due to firearms is in the US.
But wouldn't that mean much tighter and more stringent controls? Wouldn't that be 'punishing' others (your law abiding citizen), making much harder to exercise their 'right' to own a gun? Is that not an infringement on their rights?
What happens if you get the all clear to purchase firearms, seeing you are a good citizen and mentally stable but then you start having 'issues' (say depression/a breakdown). Does the doctor notify an 'authority' to let them know you are no longer fit to own a firearm. Just like a driver's license can be revoked due to infractions/illness, etc.? Would that also be infringing one's rights?
Let's look at proper statistics. Crime is all reported actions that are against the law (illegal download/piracy is included - who of us isn't guilty of that :? ). GUN laws will impact on GUN crime.
See here (same site as you quoted) - let's look at GUN crime... yes the US is at #8 and does Finland rank (or the UK for that matter)? Hmmm... not sure, the list goes to #32 and neither are on it.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_g ... 00-000-pop
Now that this is clearer, if you wish to discuss crime in general (but like for like nevertheless), that can be done as well but maybe in a different thread which is not about GUNS.
The problem most people see is its hard to define "Mentally Unstable". There are obvious cases such as the one in AZ. But if I am really stressed at work and having depression does that define me as mentally unstable. You also have to look at all the state mentally hospitals that are closing through the country and amount of prisons that being built. Just knowing a few people that work as physiologist at prison systems they basically claim that the prison system is not only housing dangerous criminals but also replacement for the mentally ill. The other issue is privacy laws and anybody in the US has heard of HIPAA laws. Once the school noted he was mentally ill then he should have been able to at least be evaluated by a trained professional. I don't know if that option was giving to him ( anybody know?) but it certianly didn't happen because any professional would have seen he was going to do harm to himself and others and notified the authorities.
In the end I don't mind having an instant background check since there is no reason for it to take any longer its all on a computer and can be done that way. If they queried a little more information about me I fine with that as well. Where I have the real problem is where I have to wait/ make multiple trips to places during government hours (hey I work a 9-5 job), and when you try to ban things.
A good number of mass shootings/killing sprees in the US were committed by law abiding citizens who were not criminals but just happened to have access to a legally owned gun (either theirs one belonging to a parent/ spouse/partner) when they flipped.
ha ha
thats the LAW !!!
Godfather.
Depression is considered a mental illness. Could that make you unstable? Maybe? The AZ case seems obvious, but for gun control reasons, it's not. The school noted he had issues but no diagnostic of mental illness - that's not their job. Even if the authorities are notified, if a person has not been officially 'institutionalised' (ie put in a mental institution), then this person can still get a gun.
Instant background checks don't mean anything. As I said, unless you have been convicted of certain serious crimes (not just arrested and charged) or have been a 'guest' at a mental institution and it's on your record, your scot-free. Waiting times can avoid 'spur of the moment' thoughts/actions. Maybe making several trips during working hours could also be a deterrent.
Again, no one is talking bans.
Somebody check a verify my Math below I am lazy. thx!
I if read that right is say 3.6 people die for 100,000 person so extending those numbers it is 3600 people for every 100 million people. I am thinking that's really not that bad. So a quick google tell me there are 307,006,550 people in the US so more math tells me that there about 10800 gun related deaths in the US every year. With out looking to hard the internets says in 2008 (Most recent item in the first search result) There were 13,846 alcohol related driving fatalities. That is about 3K more then gun related deaths so I am not sure why people are up and arms about guns and how bad they are.
for starters, I am just sad that the gun laws in AZ were so lax that a 9 year old died along with 5 others. I think the magazine limits is a start. There's no telling if it would've helped, but I personally dont think that is too much of an inconvenience, and its worth a try. There's gotta be something we can do to minimize the needless murders. It might start with identifying the mental problems of potential aggresors, but in conjunction with stricter gun laws, maybe innocent lives could be saved. Why arent the laws in AZ as strict as PA? I dont know. I dont have the answers, but it cant hurt to discuss a compromise. I'm sure these discussions about gun laws are going on all around the US now, sadly they are usually in response to these heinous crimes.
It also seems like these 'whackos' are snapping more and more lately. I just think we need to get with the times and do something before another 9 year old innocent girl is gunned down in a parking lot. to me, 1 of these cases is enough to raise a red flag and discuss a compromise in gun laws. Its probably true though, not much will change because of politicians fears of NRa and such..
I'm not going back on anything, this thread is about guns (gun related crime, murder etc.) and that's that.
And like redrock already said, in gun crime, US ranks way higher than Finland.