everybody sucks

pandora

scb wrote:

pandora wrote:

True probably need to get out more Lord knows

you'll need to show a specific quote cause I'm old and don't remember when I treated an entire group badly.
That doesn't really sound like me cause I don't care if someone agrees with me or not..
and I am usually pretty good to others.

Yeah, I know. That's why I've been surprised throughout this thread.

I was going to show you specific quotes about how you have repeatedly, since page 1, misrepresented and insulted the entire group of people who don't feel that anyone should be subjected against his/her will to secondhand smoke, but they are too numerous. Here's a summary:

Instead of acknowledging our concerns and then explaining why you disagree, you have said we only feel the way we do because we are:

lacking compassion
discriminatory
small-minded
unwilling to compromise
hateful
uncaring
selfish
refusing to be understanding
unwilling to listen to another viewpoint
believe the rest of the world revolves around us
discriminatory
prejudiced
small-minded
unwilling to compromise
unwilling to accept anyone who is not like us
unwilling to accept people who aren't perfect
hateful
closed-hearted
paranoid
hysterical
obsessed
judgmental
demanding
controlling
on a power trip
lacking common sense
just looking for stuff to dislike in people
just trying to be politically correct
just trying to jump on the bandwagon
are trying to take away people's right to smoke entirely

pandora wrote:

I will say the pretend 12 hour thing didn't bring the best out in people here... not very compassionate to the pain of the smokers, even when the smokers were following the banning rules
so if you are talking about a statement directed to the group that they were being less than understanding I stand by it, cause they were.

Hey I stand by the last thing I said too.
Sorry but that there is the truth. Being open minded is being reasonable and compromising and accepting others imperfections even when those faults tread on us.

Is that a universal maxim or does it only apply to the things you agree with?

pandora wrote:

Imperfect world full of imperfect people.
The really funny thing here is I agree there should be bans. You'd think with all this excitement I was against banning entirely!!
I feel that what's in place now if enforced properly should satisfy everyone.

This statement is kind of meaningless since: A) they aren't enforced properly, and every city has different restrictions.

Is it your position that the current bans prevent innocent bystanders from being subjected to other people's smoke? Or just that we should be willing to accept the smoke?

pandora wrote:

It is you scb that is unhappy with the current smoking bans and feel harsher restrictions should be placed on others.Restrictions that not just myself would find unreasonable.
And it was you that was harsh and yes a bit out of control because I did not agree with your opinion.

As I have said twice already (and yet you persist in misrepresenting me), I was not upset because you disagree with my opinion. I was upset because:

1. You were being condescending to me and judgmental about my relationship with my sister.
2. You were (and still are) choosing to completely twist around our reasons for supporting the right of all people to not breathe cigarette smoke and insist that any opinion other than yours is based in hatred and selfishness and not reason.

I even chose to overlook the fact that you have ignored so many of the valid points people have made.

actually those quotes do fit in my opinion, if you choose to be offended ok. And thanks for going easy on me scb and overlooking my shortcomings
Man you got time for all that I'm honored. You must type with all fingers huh?
I thought you were speaking of your mother scb..I told you this before .The fact that you would not want to help her through leaving this world, you made it sound like a chore, I found that appalling, but I tried to hold my tongue and have you see the value of being helpful. But then I was condescending as was Jeanne.Treating you like a child and all. Somewhat defensive you are. I'm not the only one witnessing that.
And you choose to overlook the fact that smokers should have a right to smoke and not only in the privacy of their home. This is what I believe. You are just angry I don't agree with you, I'd say.
Meaningless I am now?...maybe I should take the time and go through all the stuff you've said about me. I won't bother. Better stuff to do I'm actually getting out today
I think the laws we have should be enforced before we make more don't you? Thats how meaningless I am.
And please don't forget to lighten up, its not that serious really. uh oh was that condescending ? If you choose to take it like that ok you don't need to respond with a lengthy post and point it out again.

Jeanwah

haffajappa wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

ha ha ha we used milk cartons in high school, I don't chew anymore but it never bothered me,out in lakeside a lot of people chewed.....does seem kinda gross now though that I think about it.

Godfather.

I knew someone whos baseball coach MADE them chew just because it made them look "more tough" and was the thing to do for baseball players I guess. So stupid...

At least smoke dissipates somewhat and clears... spitting has all those gross germs that just festerrr...ewww...

There is NOTHING worse than picking up your beer bottle at a party and taking a drink only to realize you grabbed someone's spit bottle instead. :shock: Talk about instant gag reflex and running to the bathroom! I'd rather deal with cigarette smoke any day, after that happened.

tremors

scb wrote:

But I didn't think we were talking about taxes; I thought we were talking about banning smoking in the workplace or on company time. Since this isn't a finacial disincentive, I don't see how it would place a disproportionate hardship on individuals of lower socioeconomic status. Of course, if a higher proportion of lower income people smoke than higher income, smoking disincentives in general will affect a higher proportion of lower income people. But this isn't the same as unfairly targeting low income smokers.

.

No doubt you are right on a lot of the detail. My general point was that there is a certain aggressiveness to this agenda which doesn't have much sympathy for how some of us actually have to live. Smoking is a 'crutch', but we all have them. The reason I was bringing in 'comfort eating' is that it serves a similar purpose for people who are stressed, or indeed anyone - a cup of tea, a cake, a bit of light relief. I could go around trying to get you off your various crutches but you probably wouldn't like it too much. It's interesting to me how a lot of the people in my line of work working with heroin users are ex-heroin users themselves, and so bring a lot of empathy and a certain sympathy to the role; but in my experience most smoking cessation workers and the various strategists have never been smokers themselves.

On the point about breaks, we are talking about an environment where people largely manage their own time, and take plenty of coffee breaks. The 'parity' I am talking about is about my right to go for a cigarette when a colleague is stuffing their face full of cake between meetings!

tremors

Lol - just thought I'd share this - not everyone will find it as funny as I do.

I visited a hospital for work not too long ago, and went to the smokers' exclusion zone about 500 metres from the building, in the car park, alongside the people in their wheel chairs and wheeling their drip feeds outside. The way you knew you had crossed out of the exclusion zone was, and this is no word of a lie - there was a loud tannoy strategically placed within earshot which has a woman's voice saying this on repeat:

"This is a non smoking hospital, you are now smoking away from the designated area.... YOU ARE KILLING YOURSELVES!!! ... this is a non smoking hosptial, you are now smoking....."


This I find funny.

Jeanwah

tremors wrote:

Lol - just thought I'd share this - not everyone will find it as funny as I do.

I visited a hospital for work not too long ago, and went to the smokers' exclusion zone about 500 metres from the building, in the car park, alongside the people in their wheel chairs and wheeling their drip feeds outside. The way you knew you had crossed out of the exclusion zone was, and this is no word of a lie - there was a loud tannoy strategically placed within earshot which has a woman's voice saying this on repeat:

"This is a non smoking hospital, you are now smoking away from the designated area.... YOU ARE KILLING YOURSELVES!!! ... this is a non smoking hosptial, you are now smoking....."


This I find funny.

OMG, can you imagine?!! I kinda think it's funny sad, though... That's an example of blatant attempt to manipulate people. I agree it's a crutch many need to fall back on in times of distress, much like any other vice. Yes, smokers may know it's bad for them but they help in the short term, and we all need our own "drug" of choice to help us get by sometimes.

pandora

When we moved here to Georgia, just about 20 years ago, there were many people, whole families that would go to the store in their bare feet and sometimes shirtless too.
Back home in WI we had the signs 'no shoes...no shirt... no service' by that time.
Soon they appeared here in Georgia too, now it would be rare to see someone barefoot in the store
but I still do.

The signs were limited to restaurants and food stores, anyplace with food, so it was a health issue.

pandora

Jeanwah wrote:

tremors wrote:

Lol - just thought I'd share this - not everyone will find it as funny as I do.

I visited a hospital for work not too long ago, and went to the smokers' exclusion zone about 500 metres from the building, in the car park, alongside the people in their wheel chairs and wheeling their drip feeds outside. The way you knew you had crossed out of the exclusion zone was, and this is no word of a lie - there was a loud tannoy strategically placed within earshot which has a woman's voice saying this on repeat:

"This is a non smoking hospital, you are now smoking away from the designated area.... YOU ARE KILLING YOURSELVES!!! ... this is a non smoking hosptial, you are now smoking....."


This I find funny.

OMG, can you imagine?!! I kinda think it's funny sad, though... That's an example of blatant attempt to manipulate people. I agree it's a crutch many need to fall back on in times of distress, much like any other vice. Yes, smokers may know it's bad for them but they help in the short term, and we all need our own "drug" of choice to help us get by sometimes.

Red wine works fine I hope that doesn't get banned! I'll be moonshining for sure. I'm all for crutches to get you through, less stress makes for more peace.

_

pandora wrote:

actually those quotes do fit in my opinion, if you choose to be offended ok. And thanks for going easy on me scb and overlooking my shortcomings
Man you got time for all that I'm honored. You must type with all fingers huh?
I thought you were speaking of your mother scb..I told you this before .The fact that you would not want to help her through leaving this world, you made it sound like a chore, I found that appalling, but I tried to hold my tongue and have you see the value of being helpful. But then I was condescending as was Jeanne.Treating you like a child and all. Somewhat defensive you are. I'm not the only one witnessing that.
And you choose to overlook the fact that smokers should have a right to smoke and not only in the privacy of their home. This is what I believe. You are just angry I don't agree with you, I'd say.
Meaningless I am now?...maybe I should take the time and go through all the stuff you've said about me. I won't bother. Better stuff to do I'm actually getting out today
I think the laws we have should be enforced before we make more don't you? Thats how meaningless I am.
And please don't forget to lighten up, its not that serious really. uh oh was that condescending ? If you choose to take it like that ok you don't need to respond with a lengthy post and point it out again.

Sigh... :( :roll:

Look, I've explained over and over and over again that I got upset because I felt like you were/are treating me and others badly. If it makes you feel better about yourself to choose to believe that the only reason anyone would be frustrated with you is because you disagree with their position on social issues and the only reason anyone would disagree with you is because they are small-minded and hateful, then far be it from me to interfere with such a steadfast world view.

tremors

pandora wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

tremors wrote:

Lol - just thought I'd share this - not everyone will find it as funny as I do.

I visited a hospital for work not too long ago, and went to the smokers' exclusion zone about 500 metres from the building, in the car park, alongside the people in their wheel chairs and wheeling their drip feeds outside. The way you knew you had crossed out of the exclusion zone was, and this is no word of a lie - there was a loud tannoy strategically placed within earshot which has a woman's voice saying this on repeat:

"This is a non smoking hospital, you are now smoking away from the designated area.... YOU ARE KILLING YOURSELVES!!! ... this is a non smoking hosptial, you are now smoking....."


This I find funny.

OMG, can you imagine?!! I kinda think it's funny sad, though... That's an example of blatant attempt to manipulate people. I agree it's a crutch many need to fall back on in times of distress, much like any other vice. Yes, smokers may know it's bad for them but they help in the short term, and we all need our own "drug" of choice to help us get by sometimes.

Red wine works fine I hope that doesn't get banned! I'll be moonshining for sure. I'm all for crutches to get you through, less stress makes for more peace.

One of my favourite song-lines which I have lost count of the number of times I have quoted to myself or others is Lennon:

Whatever gets you through the night. It's alright, it's alright.....

pandora

scb wrote:

pandora wrote:

actually those quotes do fit in my opinion, if you choose to be offended ok. And thanks for going easy on me scb and overlooking my shortcomings
Man you got time for all that I'm honored. You must type with all fingers huh?
I thought you were speaking of your mother scb..I told you this before .The fact that you would not want to help her through leaving this world, you made it sound like a chore, I found that appalling, but I tried to hold my tongue and have you see the value of being helpful. But then I was condescending as was Jeanne.Treating you like a child and all. Somewhat defensive you are. I'm not the only one witnessing that.
And you choose to overlook the fact that smokers should have a right to smoke and not only in the privacy of their home. This is what I believe. You are just angry I don't agree with you, I'd say.
Meaningless I am now?...maybe I should take the time and go through all the stuff you've said about me. I won't bother. Better stuff to do I'm actually getting out today
I think the laws we have should be enforced before we make more don't you? Thats how meaningless I am.
And please don't forget to lighten up, its not that serious really. uh oh was that condescending ? If you choose to take it like that ok you don't need to respond with a lengthy post and point it out again.

Sigh... :( :roll:

Look, I've explained over and over and over again that I got upset because I felt like you were/are treating me and others badly. If it makes you feel better about yourself to choose to believe that the only reason anyone would be frustrated with you is because you disagree with their position on social issues and the only reason anyone would disagree with you is because they are small-minded and hateful, then far be it from me to interfere with such a steadfast world view.

Why would I care if you or anyone disagreed with me?
I am not the big debated like you and it's clearly not an issue for me as it is for you.
Wow excuse me for frustrating you....
I guess you strike out cause you get frustrated with others. Impatience is a problem for many.
I'm gonna say something when I think people are being unreasonable
and unwilling to compromise, that seems very childish to me.
I don't like taking away the right to smoke in public on public streets, that is over the top as was the smokers smell thing. And I am going to say so.
I think it is self centered and small minded to not compromise.
I am fine with the bans we have, they seem fair to all which is important. The smokers are compromising.
But you want to put unreasonable restraints on them scb. One reason was because you are inconvenienced with hair washing and laundry. Sorry that seems a little self centered.
And it being ok for someone to be fired cause they smell like smoke is ridiculous and I was gonna say so. If you take that as treating others badly how about the person that would be fired? But you can't see that cause you don't want to think of his feelings. He should just quit smoking then is your answer to that. Thats is small minded. Your way or no way.
So we can agree to disagree on smoking and we can leave it at that
unless you want to point out more personality faults of mine, which is boring and belittling to both of us.
I wonder if you are the type of person who must have the last word too.
And I hope you are the type of person who can say they are sorry..I have said I was sorry to you!

TriumphantAngel

scb wrote:

catefrances wrote:

pandora wrote:

and please don't spit period! gross habit

gross as that is it doesnt really inconvenience anyone does it?

You know, I once heard that they started making people wear shoes in public places in part because people were picking up illnesses from dirty floors that people spit on. I don't know if that's true. Maybe this is something that Pandora and her extra years of wisdom can shed some light on.

what's with the making fun of Pandoras age? i doubt that's necessary. you don't have to have ''extra years of wisdom" to know that spitting can spread germs. you're in the medical profession scb, surely you know this already. why do you think we are taught from a young age to put our hands over our mouth when we cough?

two things everyone should know..

1. spitting can spread infectious disease. viruses and germs that may be in sputum can live on after you've spat or coughed them out for 24 hours or more.

2. never, never, never spit into the wind if it's blowing your way because there's a fair chance it's going to come back and hit you in the face. not the greatest feeling.

Godfather.

haffajappa wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

ha ha ha we used milk cartons in high school, I don't chew anymore but it never bothered me,out in lakeside a lot of people chewed.....does seem kinda gross now though that I think about it.

Godfather.

I knew someone whos baseball coach MADE them chew just because it made them look "more tough" and was the thing to do for baseball players I guess. So stupid...

At least smoke dissipates somewhat and clears... spitting has all those gross germs that just festerrr...ewww...

yea I hear ya !! .......festerr that a gross word in its self

Godfather.

tremors

TriumphantAngel wrote:

1. spitting can spread infectious disease. viruses and germs that may be in sputum can live on after you've spat or coughed them out for 24 hours or more.

LOL - I won't pretend this is the most pleasant sentence I've come across in this forum!! But it is useful to keep in mind

catefrances

tremors wrote:

TriumphantAngel wrote:

1. spitting can spread infectious disease. viruses and germs that may be in sputum can live on after you've spat or coughed them out for 24 hours or more.

LOL - I won't pretend this is the most pleasant sentence I've come across in this forum!! But it is useful to keep in mind

have to admit i dont even step on spit when im wearing shoes. of course that when i can see it.. after it dries up how would i know. anyways i thought the spitting into the wind thing was kinda funny and a little bit gross. but serves yourself right for spitting i say.

pandora

Laying in bed this morning, listening to the Hoot owls echo their calls before sunrise...
love is in the air perhaps? I remembered something I forgot to apply here in this forum.

Carrying my firstborn at 28, I began reading parenting books and 2 suggestions have stayed with me these 26 years in raising my children that I should have applied now.
What is good for the child is also good for the adult.

First, never use sarcasm when dealing with your child.
There is a trusting innocent mind hanging on every word and they will not understand the twist in words. The child will be confused and likely to use sarcasm when dealing with others as they mature.

Secondly and very important now, never attack the child only address the behavior...not, 'you are a naughty boy!' only 'what you did was naughty!'

I apologize that I did not address the behavior, 'you are acting small minded in this situation', 'your actions appear to be self centered' 'your suggestions are unreasonable on this subject' because the people here are not small minded or self centered.

This lesson I would imagine an important one in debate, something I do not enjoy. Debate for me is arguing and gives me tummy troubles. I avoid an argument at all costs. You can not change the opinion of the debaters only sway an audience, not something I am interested in doing. In everyday normal conversation I am on the shy side and prefer to listen to others, fearing a foot in my mouth outcome.

I came to this thread because the OP is a smoker and to support his viewpoint. I support the right of smokers to smoke in public areas and feel the bans in place sufficient and feel more restrictions would be treading on the smokers rights.

I wish I had worded my opinions in a way that would not offend those who do not agree with me.
I am sorry and I will try to apply these skills to any future issues and use my life lessons in only a positive way in the future as it is these lessons that form our opinions.

catefrances

pandora,

i use sarcasm with my children. and by that i mean my 11 year old and my 13 year old. and believe me they understand it. i dont assume to know the full intelligence of my children... i always speak to them as if they are as intelligent as i am. and ive never assumed because they are children they dont understand.

pandora

catefrances wrote:

pandora,

i use sarcasm with my children. and by that i mean my 11 year old and my 13 year old. and believe me they understand it. i dont assume to know the full intelligence of my children... i always speak to them as if they are as intelligent as i am. and ive never assumed because they are children they dont understand.

I was speaking of very small children as they are learning about relationships. My opinion, sarcasm is not a real good people skill in general, though.

Definition

In sarcasm, ridicule or mockery is used harshly, often crudely and contemptuously, for destructive purposes.


Sarcasm is “a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark; a bitter jibe or taunt.” [1] Some authorities sharply distinguish sarcasm from irony,[2] however others argue that sarcasm may or often does involve irony.[3]

I do agree about the intelligence of your child though. As a young mom I knew my children understood when others thought they didn't. And this is the fact, small children understand far more than they can express. I did not talk down to them or expect less because they were children. But sarcasm can destroy trust.

catefrances

pandora wrote:

catefrances wrote:

pandora,

i use sarcasm with my children. and by that i mean my 11 year old and my 13 year old. and believe me they understand it. i dont assume to know the full intelligence of my children... i always speak to them as if they are as intelligent as i am. and ive never assumed because they are children they dont understand.

I was speaking of very small children as they are learning about relationships. My opinion, sarcasm is not a real good people skill in general, though.

Definition

In sarcasm, ridicule or mockery is used harshly, often crudely and contemptuously, for destructive purposes.


Sarcasm is “a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark; a bitter jibe or taunt.” [1] Some authorities sharply distinguish sarcasm from irony,[2] however others argue that sarcasm may or often does involve irony.[3]

I do agree about the intelligence of your child though. As a young mom I knew my children understood when others thought they didn't. And this is the fact, small children understand far more than they can express. I did not talk down to them or expect less because they were children. But sarcasm can destroy trust.

i can assure you my children trust me. and i never doubt that they do. i know my children. i know how intelligent they are. and i will not talk down to them due to ill perceived notions of childrens intelligence and what they can and can not handle. to me it is important that my children understand all the nuances of what is a difficult and sophisticated language. in using sarcasm i dont think i am mocking my children. if i did i wouldnt use it. as far as im concerned it is your responsibility to know and to understand your language. if you do not, then how is your lack my responsibility?

pandora

catefrances wrote:

pandora wrote:

catefrances wrote:

pandora,

i use sarcasm with my children. and by that i mean my 11 year old and my 13 year old. and believe me they understand it. i dont assume to know the full intelligence of my children... i always speak to them as if they are as intelligent as i am. and ive never assumed because they are children they dont understand.

I was speaking of very small children as they are learning about relationships. My opinion, sarcasm is not a real good people skill in general, though.

Definition

In sarcasm, ridicule or mockery is used harshly, often crudely and contemptuously, for destructive purposes.


Sarcasm is “a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark; a bitter jibe or taunt.” [1] Some authorities sharply distinguish sarcasm from irony,[2] however others argue that sarcasm may or often does involve irony.[3]

I do agree about the intelligence of your child though. As a young mom I knew my children understood when others thought they didn't. And this is the fact, small children understand far more than they can express. I did not talk down to them or expect less because they were children. But sarcasm can destroy trust.

i can assure you my children trust me. and i never doubt that they do. i know my children. i know how intelligent they are. and i will not talk down to them due to ill perceived notions of childrens intelligence and what they can and can not handle. to me it is important that my children understand all the nuances of what is a difficult and sophisticated language. in using sarcasm i dont think i am mocking my children. if i did i wouldnt use it. as far as im concerned it is your responsibility to know and to understand your language. if you do not, then how is your lack my responsibility?

We agree on that then, never talk down to your children.
I remember my boy had an English teacher, perhaps even more than one, who was sarcastic with the students. Now I was never sarcastic with my kids but he sure got what the teacher was saying as did all the other students. The object of the sarcasm was embarrassed and ridiculed in a subtle way. As far as nuances of our language most are pretty clear and some can be insulting.

catefrances

pandora wrote:

We agree on that then, never talk down to your children.
I remember my boy had an English teacher, perhaps even more than one, who was sarcastic with the students. Now I was never sarcastic with my kids but he sure got what the teacher was saying as did all the other students. The object of the sarcasm was embarrassed and ridiculed in a subtle way. As far as nuances of our language most are pretty clear and some can be insulting.

sarcasm for the use of ridicule and debasement is never acceptable.

and no nuance by definition is not clear. it is subtle. but yes they can be insulting.