Israel Attacks Aid Convoy - Many Deaths Reported

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  • Pepe Silvia
    Pepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
    yosi wrote:
    I've never been in combat, but I've spoken with friends who have been. They invariably talk about the fog of war, how in combat you very often only have a very sketchy idea of what is going on around you (and one would imagine that in the middle of this mess that would be all the more true). Seriously, what could anyone expect would happen in this situation?

    shooting someone in the legs twice, the back, the face and the back of the head from <1 1/2 feet (45cm) isn't the fog of war, it's murder. just the shots in the leg should be enough but standing right over someone and shooting them in the back of the head? i doubt they felt threatened or worried after also shooting him in the back and face he would spring up and shake it off
    don't compete; coexist

    what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

    when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
    i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Pepe Silvia wrote:
    yosi, why won't israel return the cameras and other items to the people of the flotilla?

    why won't israel release the ENTIRE video of the operation instead of short <1 min videos making them seem like the poor victims (as the forcibly boarded an ally's boat in international waters)

    I'd also like to hear Yosi the expert answer these questions?
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited June 2010
    'In the long run, the oppressor is also a victim. In the short run (and so far, human history has consisted only of short runs), the victims, themselves desperate and tainted with the culture that oppresses them, turn on other victims.' - Howard Zinn
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    what i find to be the biggest irony in all this is that ... a blockade is supposed to impact the enemy (which in this particular case is supposed to be hamas) - but in this particular situation, the only people that are benefitting IS HAMAS ... so, not only are palestinians being deprived basic goods and forced to live an oppressed life - Israel is in fact making HAMAS a middle man ... the guy who gets a cut for basically doing nothing ...
  • Moonpig
    Moonpig Posts: 659
    I was watching an Irish comedian there a while back, fella called Tommy Tiernan, who brought up the whole Israel V Palestinean subject:

    ""Does Israel give a rat's arse about what anybody thinks of it anymore? Blowing up people left, right and centre, and then addressing the United Nations. Fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off. To the Palestinians: fuck off. You can't be living there. Fuck off to some place you don't come from. We applied for planning permission in the old Testament. It's just come through."
    Tommy Tiernan

    Couldn't have put it better myself
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,158
    Pepe Silvia wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    I've never been in combat, but I've spoken with friends who have been. They invariably talk about the fog of war, how in combat you very often only have a very sketchy idea of what is going on around you (and one would imagine that in the middle of this mess that would be all the more true). Seriously, what could anyone expect would happen in this situation?

    shooting someone in the legs twice, the back, the face and the back of the head from <1 1/2 feet (45cm) isn't the fog of war, it's murder. just the shots in the leg should be enough but standing right over someone and shooting them in the back of the head? i doubt they felt threatened or worried after also shooting him in the back and face he would spring up and shake it off

    You're comments make so many assumptions about what happened that are based on nothing more than your knee-jerk reaction that everything is always Israel's fault. It's very easy to criticize from the safety of your desk, especially when you always begin from the uncritical assumption that the Israelis are forever and always in the wrong. All I'm saying is that I'm pretty sure that things looked very different to the soldiers who found themselves alone on a boat in the middle of the night, surrounded on all sides, being attacked by an armed mob. When you're fighting for your life, making split-second decisions, in the middle of a fucking pitched battle free for all you do what you have to do. If a mob of guys is coming at you with metal pipes and knives I'd imagine that you don't stand there calmly and make sure that you shoot people only once, because it's ok to shoot someone once, but four times is just too much god damn it! IF A MOB IS COMING AT YOU TO KILL YOU YOU'RE GOING TO SHOOT FIRST AND ASK QUESTIONS LATER, ONCE YOU AREN'T IN DANGER OF HAVING YOUR HEAD BASHED IN, OR YOUR THROAT CUT.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    yosi wrote:
    You're comments make so many assumptions about what happened that are based on nothing more than your knee-jerk reaction that everything is always Israel's fault. It's very easy to criticize from the safety of your desk, especially when you always begin from the uncritical assumption that the Israelis are forever and always in the wrong. All I'm saying is that I'm pretty sure that things looked very different to the soldiers who found themselves alone on a boat in the middle of the night, surrounded on all sides, being attacked by an armed mob. When you're fighting for your life, making split-second decisions, in the middle of a fucking pitched battle free for all you do what you have to do. If a mob of guys is coming at you with metal pipes and knives I'd imagine that you don't stand there calmly and make sure that you shoot people only once, because it's ok to shoot someone once, but four times is just too much god damn it! IF A MOB IS COMING AT YOU TO KILL YOU YOU'RE GOING TO SHOOT FIRST AND ASK QUESTIONS LATER, ONCE YOU AREN'T IN DANGER OF HAVING YOUR HEAD BASHED IN, OR YOUR THROAT CUT.

    dude ... you know i have respect for your opinions ... but this is clearly a bunch of BS ...

    look at the FACTS that we all can agree on:

    ** Israel engaged the ship in the middle of the night under the cloak of darkness rapelling down from military helicopters with a highly trained and armed task force
    ** The boat contained not a single weapon other than sticks and knives
    ** The engagement of the Irish Aid boat was done in the day with boats without incident.

    why the heck are they attacking an aid boat in the middle of the night for with like a swat team? ... it is clearly an act of aggression ... this is undeniable ... you don't come onboard a boat like that for peaceful reasons ... with such trained and armored personnel ... you can easily tame a crowd like that simply using tasers or pepper spray ...

    you cannot justify the killing of 9 civilians carrying no firearms ... the outcome of this event is the outcome that was desired by this task force ... the same outcome that resulted in the loss of one eye to a peaceful protestor on the streets ... israel has shown it is capable of enacting violence above and beyond what is reasonable and it clearly showed it again ...
  • dimitrispearljam
    dimitrispearljam Posts: 139,725
    tired to say it..the order was shoot to kill.....AGAIN!!!!!!noone leave his external policy to a 22 years old soldier....the order was clear!!go on TURKISH leading ship..and shoot to kill....waters,night,attack first,boats,plastic chairs paintball talking is waste of time...
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • Pepe Silvia
    Pepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
    polaris_x wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    You're comments make so many assumptions about what happened that are based on nothing more than your knee-jerk reaction that everything is always Israel's fault. It's very easy to criticize from the safety of your desk, especially when you always begin from the uncritical assumption that the Israelis are forever and always in the wrong. All I'm saying is that I'm pretty sure that things looked very different to the soldiers who found themselves alone on a boat in the middle of the night, surrounded on all sides, being attacked by an armed mob. When you're fighting for your life, making split-second decisions, in the middle of a fucking pitched battle free for all you do what you have to do. If a mob of guys is coming at you with metal pipes and knives I'd imagine that you don't stand there calmly and make sure that you shoot people only once, because it's ok to shoot someone once, but four times is just too much god damn it! IF A MOB IS COMING AT YOU TO KILL YOU YOU'RE GOING TO SHOOT FIRST AND ASK QUESTIONS LATER, ONCE YOU AREN'T IN DANGER OF HAVING YOUR HEAD BASHED IN, OR YOUR THROAT CUT.

    dude ... you know i have respect for your opinions ... but this is clearly a bunch of BS ...

    look at the FACTS that we all can agree on:

    ** Israel engaged the ship in the middle of the night under the cloak of darkness rapelling down from military helicopters with a highly trained and armed task force
    ** The boat contained not a single weapon other than sticks and knives
    ** The engagement of the Irish Aid boat was done in the day with boats without incident.

    why the heck are they attacking an aid boat in the middle of the night for with like a swat team? ... it is clearly an act of aggression ... this is undeniable ... you don't come onboard a boat like that for peaceful reasons ... with such trained and armored personnel ... you can easily tame a crowd like that simply using tasers or pepper spray ...

    you cannot justify the killing of 9 civilians carrying no firearms ... the outcome of this event is the outcome that was desired by this task force ... the same outcome that resulted in the loss of one eye to a peaceful protestor on the streets ... israel has shown it is capable of enacting violence above and beyond what is reasonable and it clearly showed it again ...


    they did have tazers, they even tazed an 83 year old man.

    i don't think saying 45cm (<1 1/2ft) being close is an assumption.

    but maybe it's an assumption to think if someone gets shot in the legs twice and the back they will most likely not be standing. it may be an assumption if i shoot someone twice in the legs and once in the back they are most likely not a threat to me anymore, especially when the only weapon they may have had was a stick or a knife. and it may be an assumption that if i shot someone in the head pretty much point blank range there would be no need to shoot them in the back and legs. those may be assumptions but i think they're pretty reasonable ones.

    those people didn't need to be shot but israel gets away with murdering and beating innocents on a routine basis so naturally things like this will happen.

    also, you failed to answer my question:

    yosi, why won't israel return the cameras and other items to the people of the flotilla?

    why won't israel release the ENTIRE video of the operation instead of short <1 min videos making them seem like the poor victims (as the forcibly boarded an ally's boat in international waters)

    what do they have to hide? do they not want us to see a member of the israeli knesset, a former career diplomat for nixon and reagan and other members of the flotilla are telling the truth when they say the commandos opened fire before even boarding the boat and all the needless violence at the hands of the israeli's?
    don't compete; coexist

    what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

    when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
    i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,158
    Pepe, I haven't answered your question because it's a stupid question. I'm not in the Israeli government. How the hell should I know?

    Dimitri, I really respect you. You seem to be a good guy. But to say that the Israelis boarded the ship with orders to simply start killing people is outrageous, insulting, and irrational.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • dimitrispearljam
    dimitrispearljam Posts: 139,725
    yosi wrote:
    Pepe, I haven't answered your question because it's a stupid question. I'm not in the Israeli government. How the hell should I know?

    Dimitri, I really respect you. You seem to be a good guy. But to say that the Israelis boarded the ship with orders to simply start killing people is outrageous, insulting, and irrational.
    the rules of engegement in ships are simple.shoot warning from distance,,push water with big militery ships.they didnt do what they did all the times before.in october a ship was capture with guns ,going to hamas under the flag of peace and all was cool....that was the orders Yosi..thats the sad in the story..believe me,if was a Greek ship they will not have this orders..the turkish ship was the theme here..
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • Your Mom Made Me Pancakes
    Your Mom Made Me Pancakes Posts: 169
    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/06/08 ... commandos/

    Reuters cheats on footage to cast Israel in bad light.

    They cropped out the knives in the video.

    I don't even know why I'm posting this, but have at Byrnzie, you ignoramous.
  • rafie
    rafie Posts: 2,160
    dimitrispearljam wrote:
    i see u going to bilbao,we can meet and have fun..but the only conversation will be around pearl jam-women-drinks..the 3 inportant things in life.. :mrgreen:

    ABSOLUTELY!!! :lol:
    Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!

    2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
    2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
    2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
  • rafie
    rafie Posts: 2,160
    Pepe Silvia wrote:
    rafie wrote:
    Pepe Silvia wrote:

    did i say it was the entire community?? no, i didn't.

    Here is what you said:
    Pepe Silvia wrote:

    now, naturally there's nothing wrong with being 'religious' BUT this branch of the jewish faith doesn't believe in a Palestinian state, they believe their god gave all that land to them.

    Pepe Silvia wrote:
    are you saying some in the orthodox jewish community do not support colonization of the area??

    That is exactly what I am saying. There are plenty of orthodox jews here that are left wing as far as politics goes and believe that the palestinans should have there own state. You are basing your comments on the writings of extremists that make up a minority (although a very vocal one) of that community.


    so, you have nothing to say about the 2 articles i posted? one of a teacher at a school in an illegal settlement that says it is ok to murder babies or speak badly of israel, the other from an orthodox jew that says many orthodox jews are racist and bigots and are one of the biggest obstacle to peace?

    of course it's not 100% across the board, stop trying to deflect from the point that MANY orthodox jews are racist bigots

    As I said above, the article you quoted is from an extremist in the fringe of that society.

    As for bigotry, many secular people are racist bigots too no matter what religion they officially belong to.
    Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!

    2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
    2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
    2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,158
    Dimitri, how on earth do you KNOW what the soldiers' orders were? Do you have any evidence that they were ordered to kill people? And if those were the orders (I feel dirty just indulging in this insanity) why would they use pistols instead of rifles? And why even put soldiers on the ship? Why not just shoot people from the safety of the helicopters? And why, if the orders were to kill people, were only 9 people killed? We're talking about elite commandos, the equivalent of US Navy Seals. If these guys wanted to kill people they could have easily killed way more than 9 people?

    Dimitri, these accusations you are making are divorced from reality, have no basis in fact or reason, and are provocative, incendiary, and insulting.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Digital Twilight
    Digital Twilight Posts: 5,642
    yosi wrote:
    if the orders were to kill people, were only 9 people killed? We're talking about elite commandos, the equivalent of US Navy Seals. If these guys wanted to kill people they could have easily killed way more than 9 people?

    And by the same token if they wanted to take the ship without incident they could have done so easily using a variety of methods.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    yosi wrote:
    Dimitri, how on earth do you KNOW what the soldiers' orders were? Do you have any evidence that they were ordered to kill people? And if those were the orders (I feel dirty just indulging in this insanity) why would they use pistols instead of rifles? And why even put soldiers on the ship? Why not just shoot people from the safety of the helicopters? And why, if the orders were to kill people, were only 9 people killed? We're talking about elite commandos, the equivalent of US Navy Seals. If these guys wanted to kill people they could have easily killed way more than 9 people?

    Dimitri, these accusations you are making are divorced from reality, have no basis in fact or reason, and are provocative, incendiary, and insulting.

    what's insulting is that you are attempting to make it out like these elite commandos as you put it could not board a ship full of unarmed civilians without killing 9 of them ... again - for the umpteenth time because i know you have no reposnse to it ...

    why attack a ship in the middle of the night from a helicopter if your intentions were peaceful!?? ... insinuating that these elite commandos were justified in killing these 9 civilians explains why many defenders of israel justify the disproportionate amount of civilian deaths of palestinians compared to israelis ...
  • TriumphantAngel
    TriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    Your Mom Is Sleeping Over wrote:
    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/06/08/reuters-fake-photos-ihh-gaza-blockade-commandos/

    Reuters cheats on footage to cast Israel in bad light.

    They cropped out the knives in the video.

    I don't even know why I'm posting this, but have at Byrnzie, you ignoramous.
    didn't you just say in another post that you are just back from a ban? i guess it wasn't long enough. you clearly didn't learn anything by it. maybe you could have 5 or 6 posts before you start attacking people again. just a thought of course.

    and as you appear concerned about the media reporting false information, i'm sure you have some views on a post i did a few days ago. you must have missed it, i don't see any comments from you.

    here, i'll repost it for you.

    see this picture? This is an Israeli propaganda photo and caption that appeared on the website of Israeli newspaper Haaretz.

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-d ... s-1.293089

    left-wing_activist.tiff.converted.jpg

    let's see if you can spot what's wrong with it. no cookies for guessing. it's too easy.

    There's a number of things not credible about this:

    The Israeli assault took place in darkness. There is bright daylight coming through the window.
    Who took the picture? The Israeli commandos supposedly being threatened with stabbing? It's a great picture!
    Everyone behind the man with the knife looks quite calm and not as if they are under attack by the Israeli army.
    People on the ship were ordered to wear life jackets before the Israeli attack and most were on the video feed. No one is in this picture.
    How do they know he's a "left-wing activist"? He doesn't fit my stereotype of a left-wing activist. Did they take the time to interview him while he was supposedly trying to stab them?

    Reality check: If this photo even comes from the ship it shows a man carrying a ceremonial dagger, perhaps in a demonstration of bravado in front of cameras and journalists. What it certainly wouldn't do is justify a military assault on the high seas and the murder and wounding of dozens of civilians on a humanitarian aid ship. After all, suppose they had lots of daggers on the ship, what were they going to do, sail to Gaza and "stab" Israel?

    -Ali Abunimah
  • TriumphantAngel
    TriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    yosi wrote:
    Pepe, I haven't answered your question because it's a stupid question. I'm not in the Israeli government. How the hell should I know?
    when has you not being in the Israeli government ever stopped you from having an opinion about anything? you have been very opinionated about the attack on the Mavi Marmara so far, discussing in detail your views, even going so far as to state that you have no sympathy for the people that were killed.

    so it should be reasonably easy for you to have an opinion on what pepe asked shouldnt it?

    yosi, why won't israel return the cameras and other items to the people of the flotilla?

    why won't israel release the ENTIRE video of the operation instead of short <1 min videos making them seem like the poor victims (as the forcibly boarded an ally's boat in international waters)
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi wrote:
    Dimitri, how on earth do you KNOW what the soldiers' orders were? Do you have any evidence that they were ordered to kill people? And if those were the orders (I feel dirty just indulging in this insanity).

    Why? Are you now trying to pretend that the IDF doesn't have a long history of deliberately targeting civilians? Even IDF soldiers themselves have admitted they've been given shoot-to-kill orders against unarmed civilians in the past.

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