Israel Attacks Aid Convoy - Many Deaths Reported

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

You're comments make so many assumptions about what happened that are based on nothing more than your knee-jerk reaction that everything is always Israel's fault. It's very easy to criticize from the safety of your desk, especially when you always begin from the uncritical assumption that the Israelis are forever and always in the wrong. All I'm saying is that I'm pretty sure that things looked very different to the soldiers who found themselves alone on a boat in the middle of the night, surrounded on all sides, being attacked by an armed mob. When you're fighting for your life, making split-second decisions, in the middle of a fucking pitched battle free for all you do what you have to do. If a mob of guys is coming at you with metal pipes and knives I'd imagine that you don't stand there calmly and make sure that you shoot people only once, because it's ok to shoot someone once, but four times is just too much god damn it! IF A MOB IS COMING AT YOU TO KILL YOU YOU'RE GOING TO SHOOT FIRST AND ASK QUESTIONS LATER, ONCE YOU AREN'T IN DANGER OF HAVING YOUR HEAD BASHED IN, OR YOUR THROAT CUT.

Why don't you answer Pepe's question Yosi?

Pepe Silvia wrote:

yosi, why won't israel return the cameras and other items to the people of the flotilla?

why won't israel release the ENTIRE video of the operation instead of short <1 min videos making them seem like the poor victims (as the forcibly boarded an ally's boat in international waters)

redrock

This from the AFP which more than suggests they have something to hide:

"Israel is set to accept a plan under which it would ease its Gaza blockade in return for the international community agreeing a limited probe into a deadly flotilla raid, it was reported Wednesday........

......Officials deny there is a link between their willingness to cooperate and matters related to the inquiry, the paper said."

The last bit made me smirk. Full and independent enquiry (obviously not by Israel) with no strings attached. That's what is needed.

Byrnzie

redrock wrote:

This from the AFP which more than suggests they have something to hide:

"Israel is set to accept a plan under which it would ease its Gaza blockade in return for the international community agreeing a limited probe into a deadly flotilla raid, it was reported Wednesday........

......Officials deny there is a link between their willingness to cooperate and matters related to the inquiry, the paper said."

The last bit made me smirk. Full and independent enquiry (obviously not by Israel) with no strings attached. That's what is needed.

You forget that Israel is always the victim.

The Zionists dispossessed the Palestinians of 56% of their land in 1947, but Israel are the victims.

Israel seized the Golan Heights, the West Bank, and the Sinai during the 6 day war in 1967, but Israel are the victims.

Israel bombed the civilian population of Gaza in 2009 and killed over 1000 civilians, but Israel are the victims.


Israel stormed an aid convoy in international waters and killed 9 civilian aid workers, but Israel are the victims.


Do you see a pattern here?

Byrnzie

Israel are the victims:

badbrains

We're ALL the victims of the machine...... :evil:

Byrnzie

Flotilla debate ratchets up: Norman Finkelstein and Daniel Pollack

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10XphhuNupw

polaris_x

Byrnzie wrote:

Flotilla debate ratchets up: Norman Finkelstein and Daniel Pollack

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10XphhuNupw

any word on the smuggled video?

Byrnzie

polaris_x wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

Flotilla debate ratchets up: Norman Finkelstein and Daniel Pollack

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10XphhuNupw

any word on the smuggled video?

Not that I know of. Though there was one video leaked by the aid activists which the news media reported and chose to focus solely on the fact that it showed an injured IDF commando. Maybe that was it?

rafie

Byrnzie wrote:

Israel are the victims:

How in your eyes is this even remotely historically accurate?

On the 29th of November 1947 the UN voted on a two state solution as follows:

http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyr ... J0d1q0.jpg

The Palestinian leadership declined the offer and opened war with the jewish population supported by the arab nations surrounding Israel in hopes of wiping out the jewish population in the area. Israel was founded during this war and in the peace treaty at the end of the war, the following borders were accepted:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/h ... warmap.JPG
The west bank ended up in Jordanian hands and the Gaza strip in Egyptian hands.

Following the 1967 war, The borders drastically changed as Israel managed to take hold of Sinai, the Golan heights, Judea and Sumeria (the west bank) and the Gaza strip:

http://www.historycentral.com/Israel/Is ... eLines.jpg

In following years, as part of peace treaties, Israel gave Sinai back to the Egyptians. Jordan on the other hand was not interested in getting the west bank back when peace was signed with Israel.
In talks with the Syrians, the question of the golan heights is one that comes up frequently.

dimitrispearljam

yosi wrote:

Dimitri, how on earth do you KNOW what the soldiers' orders were? Do you have any evidence that they were ordered to kill people? And if those were the orders (I feel dirty just indulging in this insanity) why would they use pistols instead of rifles? And why even put soldiers on the ship? Why not just shoot people from the safety of the helicopters? And why, if the orders were to kill people, were only 9 people killed? We're talking about elite commandos, the equivalent of US Navy Seals. If these guys wanted to kill people they could have easily killed way more than 9 people?

Dimitri, these accusations you are making are divorced from reality, have no basis in fact or reason, and are provocative, incendiary, and insulting.

i m in military,know the rules of of attact to disarm a ship,i know the warning sidnals,i know when u shoot a man in the back, i know when u shoot a man in the head,
noone leave his policy to a 22 year old commandos..if commandos want to take a piss,they ask,they want to touch their nose ,they take orders..believe it..its so sad someone give this order...
sorry but i know..im not provoke,insult anyone by tell my opinion in something i know..you should know better that im not that person..

yosi

The question asked for a factual response, not for my opinion. Since I am not privy to the thinking of the Israeli government, and I haven't read anything that would shed light on their thinking in this matter, I have nothing on which to base an opinion.

yosi

dimitrispearljam wrote:

yosi wrote:

Dimitri, how on earth do you KNOW what the soldiers' orders were? Do you have any evidence that they were ordered to kill people? And if those were the orders (I feel dirty just indulging in this insanity) why would they use pistols instead of rifles? And why even put soldiers on the ship? Why not just shoot people from the safety of the helicopters? And why, if the orders were to kill people, were only 9 people killed? We're talking about elite commandos, the equivalent of US Navy Seals. If these guys wanted to kill people they could have easily killed way more than 9 people?

Dimitri, these accusations you are making are divorced from reality, have no basis in fact or reason, and are provocative, incendiary, and insulting.

i m in military,know the rules of of attact to disarm a ship,i know the warning sidnals,i know when u shoot a man in the back, i know when u shoot a man in the head,
noone leave his policy to a 22 year old commandos..if commandos want to take a piss,they ask,they want to touch their nose ,they take orders..believe it..its so sad someone give this order...
sorry but i know..im not provoke,insult anyone by tell my opinion in something i know..you should know better that im not that person..

Dimitri, as I'm sure you're aware, in a situation where a soldier feels his life to be in immediate danger from an assailant he is forced to act in his own defense, and may legitimately use deadly force. You are making the assumption that the soldiers were not under deadly attack when they resorted to live fire, and I fail to see what you are basing that assumption on. I am not denying that the IDF made tactical and strategic mistakes here. But I see no reason to think that these soldiers were given orders to board this ship and start killing people at random.

dimitrispearljam

Yosi,sorry man,my opinion is this,they kill people in cold blood cos there order to do it..
i wasnt there,so my opinion is what i got..to read news from one side or the other is useless..its propaganda both sides.

Pepe Silvia

i don't know that this is really the death of Furkan but you can clearly see in this video the commandos kicking and hitting someone on the ground and gee, what's that thing in the one's hands? that's an awfully big paint ball gun or pistol!

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php ... 1268007355

redrock

Pepe Silvia wrote:

i don't know that this is really the death of Furkan but you can clearly see in this video the commandos kicking and hitting someone on the ground and gee, what's that thing in the one's hands? that's an awfully big paint ball gun or pistol!

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php ... 1268007355

Wow Pepe.

Yosi... you call this self defense? Cold blooded murder.

I spoke with a couple of military people (still active and one in the special forces). They concur with Dimitris - the orders were shoot to kill, not disable. There was no intention of peaceful boarding.

dimitrispearljam

redrock wrote:

Pepe Silvia wrote:

i don't know that this is really the death of Furkan but you can clearly see in this video the commandos kicking and hitting someone on the ground and gee, what's that thing in the one's hands? that's an awfully big paint ball gun or pistol!

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php ... 1268007355

Wow Pepe.

Yosi... you call this self defense? Cold blooded murder.

I spoke with a couple of military people (still active and one in the special forces). They concur with Dimitris - the orders were shoot to kill, not disable. There was no intention of peaceful boarding.

im tired to say it....shoot to kill,in Turkish ship...and only in this one,no one shoot in the other ships.
for me is so clear...no need to see any footage..

redrock

dimitrispearljam wrote:

...no need to see any footage..

The bullet holes in the 9 dead speak for themselves. Though footage like this debunks Israel's rhetoric of self defense.

Again, this shows the need for an independent inquiry (with the full cooperation/transparency from Israel) AND consequences! Not just a lil' slap on the hand for Israel to laugh off.

nuffingman

redrock wrote:

dimitrispearljam wrote:

...no need to see any footage..

Again, this shows the need for an independent inquiry (with the full cooperation/transparency from Israel) AND consequences! Not just a lil' slap on the hand for Israel to laugh off.

I think hell will freeze over before we see that.

redrock

nuffingman wrote:

redrock wrote:

dimitrispearljam wrote:

...no need to see any footage..

Again, this shows the need for an independent inquiry (with the full cooperation/transparency from Israel) AND consequences! Not just a lil' slap on the hand for Israel to laugh off.

I think hell will freeze over before we see that.

Sadly (and shamefully) I think you are right.

dimitrispearljam

and thisz fuckin politics..i have some friends from israel,so great people,we will tour together,and are so peacefull,with so great feelings..and those politics with their acts put them in the spot that have to explain their bullshit..and not only in israel this happens..our Greek one are the same fuckers..