If Tim's reply was on behalf of the tenclub, i've gotta say its totally out of line and totally unprofessional. Even if you felt that way Tim, you should have been more diplomatic in your position.
This band is loved by so many, and agree far too many so called fans stop by to winge and moan every single day and it must be hard as sometimes no matter what you guys do its not good enough.....you give information and we all want more, and then criticise for you not giving more immediately....however your response albeit probably out of frustration well and truely over stepped the mark. For christ sake the geezer only said he thought the poster was shite. and come on its hardly one of their best, its hardly a boston, sydney or raliegh 98, or an oakland 97 is it??
Get over it man, you'll never keep everyone happy, but to explode like that was wrong. Ames sold out their sub, asll the posters will sell, wheres the harm??
I am sort of feeling like this too. I mean obviously it must be difficult to hear people complain on the board every day when you are so close to the band. It is definitely something I wouldn’t want to deal with, that is for sure.
But at the same time, it is important to remember that the people on this board, whether they complain or not, are some of the most hardcore fans the band has. These are the people who will by CD’s on the day they are released (and sometimes by multiple copies on Vinyl and CD), they will travel long distances to see shows and talk up the band to people any chance to get. Even if these fans do complain sometimes, I think alienating them and throwing insults at them seems like a bad idea.
I agree with a lot of what you (pdalowsky and ledbetterman10) both said - I don't think putting the fanclub on hiatus will ever happen, but I can appreciate the frustration that must evolve and can therefore relate to Tim's response. After all, it's got to be difficult to find comfort in the fact that 'it's only 2% of people that bitch and complain in an unproductive manner' - I mean, that's part of the problem - it seems to me that while they're the overall 'minority', they come off as the 'vocal majority'. If there were three people at your work that came to your desk everyday and told you your work sucked (that's it, 'it sucks' - no 'why' it sucks, and no 'I think your work could improve in this area' - just 'I hate your work, it sucks'), could you take much comfort in thinking 'well everyone else at work must think I'm doing a good job, because they don't explicitly tell me my work sucks'? I'd find that hard to deal with. And people will retort with 'well, there are lots of posts saying how great people think the fanclub/Tim/Kat are', but those posters often get labeled as ass-kissers etc. and can be made to feel like they're somehow trying to be 'teachers pet'.
And ya, I'll give you that most people might like the Raleigh over the new WPB, but that doesn't change the argument - it's still subjective. I just don't believe that art can be judged objectively because how we perceive it is purely subjective by nature and that can't be changed (this is of course my opinion and yours may differ - cool enough).
'She runs through my veins like a long, black river and rattles my cage like a thunderstorm...' R. Adams.
wow would you like some cheese with that wine? i take it you work for the band or something? well if thats the case why are you calling their fans assholes? lol i mean arent we the ones who make sure you have a job to begin with? not everyone is bashing the ames bros i know, so does it make it any better to call these fans assholes and tell them they arent welcome here because they have a opinion? this is a message board, everyone has a opinion and not everyone agrees on the same things. if we all did this world would be a very boring place. ames, like pearl jam are artists, if they cant take criticism they are in the wrong profession.
i personally dont mind this poster. i think its one of the better ames over the past little while. i just dont like seeing the "authority" around here bully around the bands loyal fans and call them assholes because they dont like a poster and voiced it.
No one from the 10C ever gets involved (vary rarely) in posting about something someone they said, but you can say you dont like something and you can say you won't buy something but you don't need to be an asshole about it, so I say Tim called it like he saw it...
"Without the album covers, where do you clean your pot?" - EV
If Tim's reply was on behalf of the tenclub, i've gotta say its totally out of line and totally unprofessional. Even if you felt that way Tim, you should have been more diplomatic in your position.
This band is loved by so many, and agree far too many so called fans stop by to winge and moan every single day and it must be hard as sometimes no matter what you guys do its not good enough.....you give information and we all want more, and then criticise for you not giving more immediately....however your response albeit probably out of frustration well and truely over stepped the mark. For christ sake the geezer only said he thought the poster was shite. and come on its hardly one of their best, its hardly a boston, sydney or raliegh 98, or an oakland 97 is it??
Get over it man, you'll never keep everyone happy, but to explode like that was wrong. Ames sold out their sub, asll the posters will sell, wheres the harm??
No he didnt JUST day the poster was shitty, he sad he hated Ames....
"Without the album covers, where do you clean your pot?" - EV
Haven't said this in a while, I like this Ames poster and I'll be trying for one today.
Aside from that, I am a little hurt by what Tim said. I think we all have the right to say if a print is good or bad... I see all kinds of artwork, every day, I'm obsessed, and let me tell you, I see hundreds of unknown artists dying to sell some work who put the half assed Ames work to shame. I think Ames prints seem RUSHED, not screened well(most of the time), and they know they will get away with it because Pearl Jam fans will buy anything.
I do not bash Ames posters because they are made by Ames, I bash them because they don't have enough respect for Pearl Jam or for us fans to put a decent effort into something that we will all spend our hard earned money on.
P.S. Klausen is good, but I'll bash him just as quick as Ames Bros if he puts out a sub par rushed print!
I agree with a lot of what you (pdalowsky and ledbetterman10) both said - I don't think putting the fanclub on hiatus will ever happen, but I can appreciate the frustration that must evolve and can therefore relate to Tim's response. After all, it's got to be difficult to find comfort in the fact that 'it's only 2% of people that bitch and complain in an unproductive manner' - I mean, that's part of the problem - it seems to me that while they're the overall 'minority', they come off as the 'vocal majority'. If there were three people at your work that came to your desk everyday and told you your work sucked (that's it, 'it sucks' - no 'why' it sucks, and no 'I think your work could improve in this area' - just 'I hate your work, it sucks'), could you take much comfort in thinking 'well everyone else at work must think I'm doing a good job, because they don't explicitly tell me my work sucks'? I'd find that hard to deal with. And people will retort with 'well, there are lots of posts saying how great people think the fanclub/Tim/Kat are', but those posters often get labeled as ass-kissers etc. and can be made to feel like they're somehow trying to be 'teachers pet'.
And ya, I'll give you that most people might like the Raleigh over the new WPB, but that doesn't change the argument - it's still subjective. I just don't believe that art can be judged objectively because how we perceive it is purely subjective by nature and that can't be changed (this is of course my opinion and yours may differ - cool enough).
again all very valid points you make, its hard to take negative comments, but there are ways of dealing with it, to crack so easily and blow up is strange over a nothing comment,
Maybe if it was one of the ames it may be a little more understandable, but this guy is just a friend - the bad bit being he is a man acting on behalf of the band.
Hey i have no gripes with Tim whatsoever, for me I love the ten club, I buy everything they put out, I worship the band, I collect everything, and spread the word to anyone who is not too bored to continue listening to me.....I love evrything about Pearl Jam, I'm pretty much as dedicated as you can get, I just think the approach taken (albeit funny, and understandable) really shouldnt have been made on behalf of the band in a public forum.
This reaction perhaps has been coming though, maybe its a culmination of weeks of watching the bitching that goes down on here about the smallest fucking things.....I mean the other day someone tittered on about the fact that the doors opened two hours before the car parking did.......a valid point maybe....but really???
maybe so but it was brought on by his distaste for the current poster, which probably reminded him of the 2006 sub he bought and got wasted on!!!!
I see what you are saying, but if you don't like the poster, be critical or constuctive why. To come out and say I hate Ames? I studied art and have a degree in graphic design, if someone in a critique had an opinion of "I hate that" with nothing else to say they would get laughed at. And to just say I hate Ames does not help them either. Be constuctive, that is all I am saying.
...got a mind full of questions and a teacher in my soul...
After all, it's got to be difficult to find comfort in the fact that 'it's only 2% of people that bitch and complain in an unproductive manner' - I mean, that's part of the problem - it seems to me that while they're the overall 'minority', they come off as the 'vocal majority'.
I see what you're saying but I'm not sure if they really are the "vocal majority." for instance, someone who starts a thread like "Ed's a sellout" or "Tenclub sucks" usually starts thread, makes some lame claim in his/her original post, and then sits back while everyone who disagrees with him/her quotes his post and responds to it. then, the thread will turn into the all the responders arguing with each other while the original poster is over on the Foo Fighters message board starting a "Dave's a sellout" thread. so while the original poster's first post started pages and pages of shit-slinging, he/she probably won't get involved with it because they know it's an argument that no one will back them on.
Also - the whole 'Free Speech' angle around here is skewed. The band 'owns' this board, and can limit anyone's participation on it. They have CLEARLY outlined in the board rules (that they have every right to make up and that the Mods refer people to on a regular basis), that they don't want rampant negativity to reign on the board. If you don't like those rules, then don't post. And if you do come on here and just say you 'hate' someone else's work, don't be surprised if you get called on it.
I understand that this board is owned by Pearl Jam and they can (and do) whatever they want with it. Good for them. But you don't see any irony at all with the fact that they don't want you saying anything negative about this band or those who are associated with it? A band that was severely impacted by the free speech issues cannot have a message board where someone can express displeasure of their freaking poster designs?
And seriously, that "if you don't like it, don't post" defense is really not productive. It reminds me of that South Park Iraq episode where the pro-war people tell the anti-war people "If you don't like it, you can geeeeet out."
Not to say this is you, but in general, some people really need to understand that liking a band doesn't mean blindly liking or accepting everything they do.
With that said, I thoroughly enjoy Ames' output. Tampa's poster is not my thing, but I generally like more of their work than dislike it. Even if Ames' work is hated on, at least they are guaranteed to sell out all of their posters. So whatever criticism they do receive, I am sure it is worth it from a monetary standpoint.
I understand that this board is owned by Pearl Jam and they can (and do) whatever they want with it. Good for them. But you don't see any irony at all with the fact that they don't want you saying anything negative about this band or those who are associated with it? A band that was severely impacted by the free speech issues cannot have a message board where someone can express displeasure of their freaking poster designs?
And seriously, that "if you don't like it, don't post" defense is really not productive. It reminds me of that South Park Iraq episode where the pro-war people tell the anti-war people "If you don't like it, you can geeeeet out."
Not to say this is you, but in general, some people really need to understand that liking a band doesn't mean blindly liking or accepting everything they do.
With that said, I thoroughly enjoy Ames' output. Tampa's poster is not my thing, but I generally like more of their work than dislike it. Even if Ames' work is hated on, at least they are guaranteed to sell out all of their posters. So whatever criticism they do receive, I am sure it is worth it from a monetary standpoint.
No, I think there are some subtleties that are being missed here - the response wasn't elicited because the original poster just said 'something negative' or 'expressed displeasure' - they said 'Gawd I hate Ames' - and they got called on it because they didn't abide by the board rules about trying to keep the pure negativity to a minimum. 'I hate Ames' is pure negativity, there's no way around it - that's where my 'if you don't like it, don't post' comment stems from. I'm 100% positive that if I started a thread right now that said 'I really dislike the Ames WPB poster because I tend to like very realistic designs and this is far too 'basic' and 'cartoonish' for me' - Tim wouldn't lose his cool. In fact, I don't think he'd be peeved with anything that anyone posted that you could reasonably believe someone would say to one of the artists' face. Would the OP walk up to Barry Ames and say 'I Hate You' or even 'I hate your work'? I doubt it.
So I disagree that there is a lot of irony here regarding the issue of 'free speech' - Pearl Jam rail against lose of free speech issues when they pertain to the government or corporation's attempts to monopolize the flow of information. "free speech" has a very specific meaning and pertains to one's right to air grievances with their government because they have that right to represent their views. In private matters, people can make up web forums and make the rules - there's a definite distinction between the 'free speech' issues the band find important and those same issues on their moderated fan club board. Incidentally, I can't walk up to my nearest corner and start telling people through a megaphone that I 'hate' very many things, that's because 'hate speech' laws exist - and it's similar here. They've specifically stated they want to keep the unbridled negativity to a minimum here so I think the 'if you don't like it, don't post' comment stands in my opinion.
Sorry again for the novel... I'm working on a series
'She runs through my veins like a long, black river and rattles my cage like a thunderstorm...' R. Adams.
Not to say this is you, but in general, some people really need to understand that liking a band doesn't mean blindly liking or accepting everything they do.
hmmm...
All this drama over a little four word post :rolleyes:
deep, deep blue of the morning
gets to me every time
And I am pretty sure him calling fans assholes and losers is a pretty poor business approach. With the band's newfound love of corporation money, they might not appreciate responses like this that make them less marketable to companies like Verizon.
Good job, gfraser. Way to speak up. It is ludicrous to think that with a band that rails against the suppression of free speech has a message board that will not allow any negative opinions of the band or companies/individuals associated with it.
There is a difference between expressing free speech and expressing negative opinions in a harsh/mean way.
The customer is not always right, and setting them straight is a sign of self-respect and confidence! My firm fires clients all of the time!
Calling SOME fans losers and assholes is needed once in a while!
We get it. Some people don't like some of the posters. Do we have to come on here with such negativity? If you don't like it, don't get it. I'm REALLY sick of assholes who think they're critics. Try it yourself. Start your own band. Run your own fan club. Moderate your own board. If you have to say you hate someone/something, please find somewhere else to do it. These guys are busting their talented asses to provide posters for (mostly) grateful, art-loving Pearl Jam fans and the last thing we want is for them to have to read such sophomoric drivel from losers.
I am sort of feeling like this too. I mean obviously it must be difficult to hear people complain on the board every day when you are so close to the band. It is definitely something I wouldn’t want to deal with, that is for sure.
But at the same time, it is important to remember that the people on this board, whether they complain or not, are some of the most hardcore fans the band has. These are the people who will by CD’s on the day they are released (and sometimes by multiple copies on Vinyl and CD), they will travel long distances to see shows and talk up the band to people any chance to get. Even if these fans do complain sometimes, I think alienating them and throwing insults at them seems like a bad idea.
I disagree. It was about time someone said something. The negativity on this board, often for the sake of being negative hoping that it will make someone seem contrarian and cool, is out of hand. It's the main reason I don't come around here more often.
Good job, Tim!
My Pearl Jam Road: 10/22/90 Seattle | 12/22/90 Seattle, Moore Theater | 9/29/92 Seattle, Magnusson Park, Drop in the Park | 9/5/93 The Gorge, with Neil Young and Blind Melon | 7/20/06 Portland, Arlene Schnitzer Concert Hall with Sleater-Kinney | 7/22/06 The Gorge, 10/21/06 Mountain View, Shoreline Ampitheatre, Bridge School Benefit | 9/21/09 Seattle | 9/22/09 Seattle | 9/26/09 Portland, OR | 7/14/2011 Eddie Vedder, Portland, OR | 11/29/13 Portland, OR
First, I like Ames' work, and think the Tampa Bay poster looks cool. I would add it to my collection if 10C is selling them at some point.
Secondly, it is pretty frustrating to see some of the negative aspects of the 10C popping up. I've always been a fan of the band and of the 10C. I think the biggest negative is simply lack of communication, or ill-advised communication. Just this year we've had 10C run around threatening people with Ed's hypocritical taping policy. And now fans are being called assholes and losers by the guy in charge of the fan club.
My favorite part of this thread are these snippets from 2 posts:
Seriously, though. I understand Tim's frustration, and have taken self-imposed breaks from the board for reasons Tim highlighted - he does have a point that is impossible to deny. The 10C does a great job trying to please as many fans as possible. You'll never please everyone. I think tickets are handled well, I think people appreciate the unique posters that are created, I think the bootleg program was very well received. The band is touring. The band is recording new music. There are lots of positives right now. 10C just needs to take a deep breath.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
I disagree. It was about time someone said something. The negativity on this board, often for the sake of being negative hoping that it will make someone seem contrarian and cool, is out of hand. It's the main reason I don't come around here more often.
Good job, Tim!
I know what you mean about the negativity here sometimes. But what I was trying to get across that since this board is made up of a large portion of like super-fans then even if they are posting negative stuff here every single day they are also probably promoting the band and saying good things about them in the real world to who ever will listen (not to mention they are probably supporting the band way more than an average fan would by purchasing tons of stuff). Which is why I think someone posting a negative comment here should be given the benefit of the doubt, becuase I think it is a really bad idea to turn a super fan off of the band. Especially when that superfan is probably telling their friends how awesome a new song, or a bootleg or a DVD is in the real world every chance they can get (which to mean should easily counterbalance any stupid negative post that shows up on here).
I can see your point - but do we really need to set the bar lower for the 'super-fan'? I mean, how hard is it to couple your criticisms with something constructive?? As I've said in my overly-wordy posts above - I think the OP got nailed because of the 'Hate Ames' aspect.
I don't know - it's not that hard to stick to trying to be a little positive, and I don't think that the uber-fans should get some sort of pass...
'She runs through my veins like a long, black river and rattles my cage like a thunderstorm...' R. Adams.
It's gotta be stressful working for us fans. We're crazy. We have poster elitist, setlist elitist, seat elitist, memorabilia elitist, bootleg elitist, and every other kind of elitist you can think of. And when something doesn't go our way, or please us, we get more than a little vocal about it. I can only imagine how shitty that can be at times. People want tenclub to be personal and close with the fans. This is what happens. You cant have them acting like people and being close instead of a huge business without the human emotions coming into play.
I fully understand Tim's frustration. His job, at times, seems impossible. Can't please everyone, especially when we are this spoiled by everything that has been offered to us over the years. Quite frankly, I'm surprised it took him this long to speak up about it.
I will say that 'loser' and 'asshole' was a bit over the top and unnecessary though. And I'd be willing to bet, that in hindsight, he would probably agree. But you can't blame the dude. People flip out and toss a word or two in from time to time. He is human, just like the rest of us, including the people who design the posters.
I can see your point - but do we really need to set the bar lower for the 'super-fan'? I mean, how hard is it to couple your criticisms with something constructive?? As I've said in my overly-wordy posts above - I think the OP got nailed because of the 'Hate Ames' aspect.
I don't know - it's not that hard to stick to trying to be a little positive, and I don't think that the uber-fans should get some sort of pass...
I don't think they should get a pass either, not at all. But I am not sure if throwing around words like "losers" and "asshole" is the best way to treat hardcore fans (the ones that will as much as they say negative things, will support the band no matter what), especially when a simple note about keeping your comments more constructive, or just deleting the post would probably just have been sufficient.
I don't think they should get a pass either, not at all. But I am not sure if throwing around words like "losers" and "asshole" is the best way to treat hardcore fans (the ones that will as much as they say negative things, will support the band no matter what), especially when a simple note about keeping your comments more constructive, or just deleting the post would probably just have been sufficient.
but people whose vocabulary peaks at "hate" and "sucks" won't understand a politely worded criticism so tim put it words they would understand
hmm, so I can't have an opinion? I don't like Ames, so I don't buy them. Simple as that. Though I am surprised that I can't post a single thought in my head that doesn't line directly paralell with the 10C. Why didn't the WHOLE THREAD bashing Ames because Klausen only got 3 posters this tour get this special treatment too? I'll make it a point from now on not to express my thoughts on (of all things) a message board. I hope you have a nice day too, Tim :rolleyes:
You call this statement an opinion? :rolleyes: Give some reasons behind it.
We get it. Some people don't like some of the posters. Do we have to come on here with such negativity? If you don't like it, don't get it. I'm REALLY sick of assholes who think they're critics. Try it yourself. Start your own band. Run your own fan club. Moderate your own board. If you have to say you hate someone/something, please find somewhere else to do it. These guys are busting their talented asses to provide posters for (mostly) grateful, art-loving Pearl Jam fans and the last thing we want is for them to have to read such sophomoric drivel from losers.
Have a nice.
Tim
Really uncool of you going off on one & calling people assholes just because they are voicing their opinion of something, be it 'art' so called or not.
Fair enough a lot of people who post here are lowbrow at best and the manner in which they express their opinion echoes that, but they pay your wages and on a very basic level are entitled to not only not be abused by you because you have a position where you think you can, but given the hitherto excellent standard set by Ames bros posters, they are allowed express their dissatisfaction with this really substandard effort(meaning the WPB-the Tampa is great) without being being berated for it.
You don't sound like you enjoy your job, I suggest a career break or even change.
Really uncool of you going off on one & calling people assholes just because they are voicing their opinion of something, be it 'art' so called or not.
Fair enough a lot of people who post here are lowbrow at best and the manner in which they express their opinion echoes that, but they pay your wages and on a very basic level are entitled to not only not be abused by you because you have a position where you think you can, but given the hitherto excellent standard set by Ames bros posters, they are allowed express their dissatisfaction with this really substandard effort(meaning the WPB-the Tampa is great) without being being berated for it.
You don't sound like you enjoy your job, I suggest a career break or even change.
Hope you're ok,
dave
Why do people have such a difficult time in differentiating between "expressing an opinion" and just being downright rude and lacking in class?
Not every business feels the need to tolerate abuse from it's customers.
The OPs tone/choice of words, not his opinion, is what is being questioned here.
which was what lukin66 did wasnt it? and then tim shit on him. so if i call tim a asshole for his comments, just calling it like i see it, then thats cool?
Comments
Yeah they did, the picture doesn't do it any justice... the prism in the middle is the Avocado shinning the light through
I am sort of feeling like this too. I mean obviously it must be difficult to hear people complain on the board every day when you are so close to the band. It is definitely something I wouldn’t want to deal with, that is for sure.
But at the same time, it is important to remember that the people on this board, whether they complain or not, are some of the most hardcore fans the band has. These are the people who will by CD’s on the day they are released (and sometimes by multiple copies on Vinyl and CD), they will travel long distances to see shows and talk up the band to people any chance to get. Even if these fans do complain sometimes, I think alienating them and throwing insults at them seems like a bad idea.
And ya, I'll give you that most people might like the Raleigh over the new WPB, but that doesn't change the argument - it's still subjective. I just don't believe that art can be judged objectively because how we perceive it is purely subjective by nature and that can't be changed (this is of course my opinion and yours may differ - cool enough).
No one from the 10C ever gets involved (vary rarely) in posting about something someone they said, but you can say you dont like something and you can say you won't buy something but you don't need to be an asshole about it, so I say Tim called it like he saw it...
No he didnt JUST day the poster was shitty, he sad he hated Ames....
yes this was clearly a reaction to this particular poster though
Aside from that, I am a little hurt by what Tim said. I think we all have the right to say if a print is good or bad... I see all kinds of artwork, every day, I'm obsessed, and let me tell you, I see hundreds of unknown artists dying to sell some work who put the half assed Ames work to shame. I think Ames prints seem RUSHED, not screened well(most of the time), and they know they will get away with it because Pearl Jam fans will buy anything.
I do not bash Ames posters because they are made by Ames, I bash them because they don't have enough respect for Pearl Jam or for us fans to put a decent effort into something that we will all spend our hard earned money on.
P.S. Klausen is good, but I'll bash him just as quick as Ames Bros if he puts out a sub par rushed print!
I don't think it was to the poster, I read it as if it was to all of Ames in general
again all very valid points you make, its hard to take negative comments, but there are ways of dealing with it, to crack so easily and blow up is strange over a nothing comment,
Maybe if it was one of the ames it may be a little more understandable, but this guy is just a friend - the bad bit being he is a man acting on behalf of the band.
Hey i have no gripes with Tim whatsoever, for me I love the ten club, I buy everything they put out, I worship the band, I collect everything, and spread the word to anyone who is not too bored to continue listening to me.....I love evrything about Pearl Jam, I'm pretty much as dedicated as you can get, I just think the approach taken (albeit funny, and understandable) really shouldnt have been made on behalf of the band in a public forum.
This reaction perhaps has been coming though, maybe its a culmination of weeks of watching the bitching that goes down on here about the smallest fucking things.....I mean the other day someone tittered on about the fact that the doors opened two hours before the car parking did.......a valid point maybe....but really???
maybe so but it was brought on by his distaste for the current poster, which probably reminded him of the 2006 sub he bought and got wasted on!!!!
I see what you are saying, but if you don't like the poster, be critical or constuctive why. To come out and say I hate Ames? I studied art and have a degree in graphic design, if someone in a critique had an opinion of "I hate that" with nothing else to say they would get laughed at. And to just say I hate Ames does not help them either. Be constuctive, that is all I am saying.
I see what you're saying but I'm not sure if they really are the "vocal majority." for instance, someone who starts a thread like "Ed's a sellout" or "Tenclub sucks" usually starts thread, makes some lame claim in his/her original post, and then sits back while everyone who disagrees with him/her quotes his post and responds to it. then, the thread will turn into the all the responders arguing with each other while the original poster is over on the Foo Fighters message board starting a "Dave's a sellout" thread. so while the original poster's first post started pages and pages of shit-slinging, he/she probably won't get involved with it because they know it's an argument that no one will back them on.
Pearl Jam bootlegs:
http://wegotshit.blogspot.com
And seriously, that "if you don't like it, don't post" defense is really not productive. It reminds me of that South Park Iraq episode where the pro-war people tell the anti-war people "If you don't like it, you can geeeeet out."
Not to say this is you, but in general, some people really need to understand that liking a band doesn't mean blindly liking or accepting everything they do.
With that said, I thoroughly enjoy Ames' output. Tampa's poster is not my thing, but I generally like more of their work than dislike it. Even if Ames' work is hated on, at least they are guaranteed to sell out all of their posters. So whatever criticism they do receive, I am sure it is worth it from a monetary standpoint.
No, I think there are some subtleties that are being missed here - the response wasn't elicited because the original poster just said 'something negative' or 'expressed displeasure' - they said 'Gawd I hate Ames' - and they got called on it because they didn't abide by the board rules about trying to keep the pure negativity to a minimum. 'I hate Ames' is pure negativity, there's no way around it - that's where my 'if you don't like it, don't post' comment stems from. I'm 100% positive that if I started a thread right now that said 'I really dislike the Ames WPB poster because I tend to like very realistic designs and this is far too 'basic' and 'cartoonish' for me' - Tim wouldn't lose his cool. In fact, I don't think he'd be peeved with anything that anyone posted that you could reasonably believe someone would say to one of the artists' face. Would the OP walk up to Barry Ames and say 'I Hate You' or even 'I hate your work'? I doubt it.
So I disagree that there is a lot of irony here regarding the issue of 'free speech' - Pearl Jam rail against lose of free speech issues when they pertain to the government or corporation's attempts to monopolize the flow of information. "free speech" has a very specific meaning and pertains to one's right to air grievances with their government because they have that right to represent their views. In private matters, people can make up web forums and make the rules - there's a definite distinction between the 'free speech' issues the band find important and those same issues on their moderated fan club board. Incidentally, I can't walk up to my nearest corner and start telling people through a megaphone that I 'hate' very many things, that's because 'hate speech' laws exist - and it's similar here. They've specifically stated they want to keep the unbridled negativity to a minimum here so I think the 'if you don't like it, don't post' comment stands in my opinion.
Sorry again for the novel... I'm working on a series
All this drama over a little four word post :rolleyes:
gets to me every time
There is a difference between expressing free speech and expressing negative opinions in a harsh/mean way.
The customer is not always right, and setting them straight is a sign of self-respect and confidence! My firm fires clients all of the time!
Calling SOME fans losers and assholes is needed once in a while!
LOL...doesn't this violate the AUP?
Keep up the good work Tim.
I disagree. It was about time someone said something. The negativity on this board, often for the sake of being negative hoping that it will make someone seem contrarian and cool, is out of hand. It's the main reason I don't come around here more often.
Good job, Tim!
Secondly, it is pretty frustrating to see some of the negative aspects of the 10C popping up. I've always been a fan of the band and of the 10C. I think the biggest negative is simply lack of communication, or ill-advised communication. Just this year we've had 10C run around threatening people with Ed's hypocritical taping policy. And now fans are being called assholes and losers by the guy in charge of the fan club.
My favorite part of this thread are these snippets from 2 posts:
I wonder if Kat is going to give him a timeout.
Seriously, though. I understand Tim's frustration, and have taken self-imposed breaks from the board for reasons Tim highlighted - he does have a point that is impossible to deny. The 10C does a great job trying to please as many fans as possible. You'll never please everyone. I think tickets are handled well, I think people appreciate the unique posters that are created, I think the bootleg program was very well received. The band is touring. The band is recording new music. There are lots of positives right now. 10C just needs to take a deep breath.
I know what you mean about the negativity here sometimes. But what I was trying to get across that since this board is made up of a large portion of like super-fans then even if they are posting negative stuff here every single day they are also probably promoting the band and saying good things about them in the real world to who ever will listen (not to mention they are probably supporting the band way more than an average fan would by purchasing tons of stuff). Which is why I think someone posting a negative comment here should be given the benefit of the doubt, becuase I think it is a really bad idea to turn a super fan off of the band. Especially when that superfan is probably telling their friends how awesome a new song, or a bootleg or a DVD is in the real world every chance they can get (which to mean should easily counterbalance any stupid negative post that shows up on here).
I don't know - it's not that hard to stick to trying to be a little positive, and I don't think that the uber-fans should get some sort of pass...
I will say that 'loser' and 'asshole' was a bit over the top and unnecessary though. And I'd be willing to bet, that in hindsight, he would probably agree. But you can't blame the dude. People flip out and toss a word or two in from time to time. He is human, just like the rest of us, including the people who design the posters.
I don't think they should get a pass either, not at all. But I am not sure if throwing around words like "losers" and "asshole" is the best way to treat hardcore fans (the ones that will as much as they say negative things, will support the band no matter what), especially when a simple note about keeping your comments more constructive, or just deleting the post would probably just have been sufficient.
but people whose vocabulary peaks at "hate" and "sucks" won't understand a politely worded criticism so tim put it words they would understand
I'm just glad I'm not into posters.
EV- 08/09,10/2008.06/08,09/2009
Really uncool of you going off on one & calling people assholes just because they are voicing their opinion of something, be it 'art' so called or not.
Fair enough a lot of people who post here are lowbrow at best and the manner in which they express their opinion echoes that, but they pay your wages and on a very basic level are entitled to not only not be abused by you because you have a position where you think you can, but given the hitherto excellent standard set by Ames bros posters, they are allowed express their dissatisfaction with this really substandard effort(meaning the WPB-the Tampa is great) without being being berated for it.
You don't sound like you enjoy your job, I suggest a career break or even change.
Hope you're ok,
dave
Why do people have such a difficult time in differentiating between "expressing an opinion" and just being downright rude and lacking in class?
Not every business feels the need to tolerate abuse from it's customers.
The OPs tone/choice of words, not his opinion, is what is being questioned here.
which was what lukin66 did wasnt it? and then tim shit on him. so if i call tim a asshole for his comments, just calling it like i see it, then thats cool?