MLB 2024 Off Season

Wobbie

Jearlpam0925 said:

I think Bumgarner and Lester are both on the outside looking in, but MadBum is closer than Lester imo because he has the next 6, 7, 8 years to change that.

yeah, except for right now he kinda sucks.

Jearlpam0925

Wobbie said:

Jearlpam0925 said:

I think Bumgarner and Lester are both on the outside looking in, but MadBum is closer than Lester imo because he has the next 6, 7, 8 years to change that.

yeah, except for right now he kinda sucks.

No doubt. Hopefully he can turn it around.

But at the end of the day I think the first ballot guys are: Kershaw, Verlander, Kershaw, Grienke. Also, I guess Grienke goes in as a Royal and Scherzer as a Nat? Talk about two dominant guys that have spent close to half their time as journeymen (using that term very, very loosely).

Now to some hot takes: Jimmy Rollins should be a HOFer, full stop.

mfc2006

Jearlpam0925 said:

Wobbie said:

Jearlpam0925 said:

I think Bumgarner and Lester are both on the outside looking in, but MadBum is closer than Lester imo because he has the next 6, 7, 8 years to change that.

yeah, except for right now he kinda sucks.

No doubt. Hopefully he can turn it around.

But at the end of the day I think the first ballot guys are: Kershaw, Verlander, Kershaw, Grienke. Also, I guess Grienke goes in as a Royal and Scherzer as a Nat? Talk about two dominant guys that have spent close to half their time as journeymen (using that term very, very loosely).

Now to some hot takes: Jimmy Rollins should be a HOFer, full stop.

I think Grienke will go in as a Royal or Dback, Max will definitely go in as a Nat. Verlander (even though I'm an Astros fan, as you all know) should go in as a Tiger.

igotid88

The Hall of Fame is finally letting steroid users in knowingly. David Ortiz is the only one voted in this year

Cliffy6745

Wonder if Ortiz will announce at his induction ceremony that he found the people responsible for him testing positive.

What a joke.

Wobbie

igotid88 said:

The Hall of Fame is finally letting steroid users in knowingly. David Ortiz is the only one voted in this year

they already did it with pudge, bagwell and piazza.

Wobbie

Cliffy6745 said:

Wonder if Ortiz will announce at his induction ceremony that he found the people responsible for him testing positive.

What a joke.

What a joke, is right.

1 out of every 3 voters is a self righteous hypocrite. Sloppi was good but he’s a one tool DH, for god’s sake!

igotid88

Wobbie said:

igotid88 said:

The Hall of Fame is finally letting steroid users in knowingly. David Ortiz is the only one voted in this year

they already did it with pudge, bagwell and piazza.

That failed a test I mean. Those guys were "assumed" or "suspected". 

Ledbetterman10

Ortiz but not Bonds or Clemons. What a joke. 

Wobbie

I just wonder how the “suspecteds” would have held up to two years of a dedicated newspaper probe and a $75 million federal/local investigation.

Wobbie

And why does Scott Rolen get twice the votes as Jeff Kent, when Kent’s numbers are better, across the board?

Poncier

It's all anti-Wob bias!


Congrats to Ortiz, well deserved (but Clemens should be going in with him)

Wobbie

Poncier said:

It's all anti-Wob bias!


Congrats to Ortiz, well deserved (but Clemens should be going in with him)

it’s deserved but it’s so damned hypocritical.

Wobbie

oh…..and bonds’ seven MVPs (should have won two more) are seven more than sloppi won.

pjhawks

Wobbie said:

And why does Scott Rolen get twice the votes as Jeff Kent, when Kent’s numbers are better, across the board?

Rolen won 8 Gold Gloves at 3rd base.  That gives him an edge over Kent. I think both are borderline and would not vote for either if I had a vote.  

tempo_n_groove

Jearlpam0925 said:

Baseball is the last sport to put you in the hall for championships won. Lester was consistently very good, and probably very much indeed the best FA signing of the Cubs. But is no way a hall of famer.

BA's JAWS score is my go-to:

Hall of Fame Statistics

 

Black Ink

Pitching - 8 (383), Average HOFer ≈ 40

Gray Ink

Pitching - 148 (119), Average HOFer ≈ 185

Hall of Fame Monitor

Pitching - 98 (105), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards

Pitching - 40 (78), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS

Starting Pitcher (149th):     44.2 career WAR | 34.6 7yr-peak WAR | 39.4 JAWS | 39.4 S-JAWS | 3.3 WAR/162   Average HOF P (out of 66):     73.0 career WAR | 49.8 7yr-peak WAR | 61.4 JAWS | 56.8 S-JAWS | 4.5 WAR/162

Black ink, grey ink?  WTH stats are these?

tempo_n_groove

Jearlpam0925 said:

Wobbie said:

Jearlpam0925 said:

I think Bumgarner and Lester are both on the outside looking in, but MadBum is closer than Lester imo because he has the next 6, 7, 8 years to change that.

yeah, except for right now he kinda sucks.

No doubt. Hopefully he can turn it around.

But at the end of the day I think the first ballot guys are: Kershaw, Verlander, Kershaw, Grienke. Also, I guess Grienke goes in as a Royal and Scherzer as a Nat? Talk about two dominant guys that have spent close to half their time as journeymen (using that term very, very loosely).

Now to some hot takes: Jimmy Rollins should be a HOFer, full stop.

Out of all the names I saw thrown around, I agree with this one.  Rollins was really good for a run.  Does Howard get a chance in later?
He didn't even get 5% and an argument could be made for him but I don't think he gets in.

Scott Rolen?  If he gets in then Vizquel should but he will never see the Hall for the batboy incident.

Modern pitchers Kershaw, Scherzer and Verlander get in for sure.  Grienke I don't know.  I think DeGrom and Buehler are both headed in the right direction for that.  Sale hasn't done enough.

I am on the fence w people like Andruw Jones.  Really good for a bit then fell off a cliff.  Beltre has 3000 hits so he gets in when eligible.

Many Ramirez should get more votes.  I think he should be in.

Kent, Sheffield, Helton and Petite are all fringe HOFers to me.  They were good but the numbers aren't there.

Wobbie

pjhawks said:

Wobbie said:

And why does Scott Rolen get twice the votes as Jeff Kent, when Kent’s numbers are better, across the board?

Rolen won 8 Gold Gloves at 3rd base.  That gives him an edge over Kent. I think both are borderline and would not vote for either if I had a vote.  

I’m not really advocating for Kent, but it surprises me that the all-time HR leader among 2B gets hardly a mention. He also has one more MVP than sloppi.

it used to be easy to identify HOFers. not so much, anymore. the only guys I see as worthy, were also steroid users….even the borderliners like sheffield and petite. todd helton, scott rolen and andruw jones just don’t scream HOF to me.

Jearlpam0925

tempo_n_groove said:

Jearlpam0925 said:

Baseball is the last sport to put you in the hall for championships won. Lester was consistently very good, and probably very much indeed the best FA signing of the Cubs. But is no way a hall of famer.

BA's JAWS score is my go-to:

Hall of Fame Statistics

 

Black Ink

Pitching - 8 (383), Average HOFer ≈ 40

Gray Ink

Pitching - 148 (119), Average HOFer ≈ 185

Hall of Fame Monitor

Pitching - 98 (105), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards

Pitching - 40 (78), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS

Starting Pitcher (149th):     44.2 career WAR | 34.6 7yr-peak WAR | 39.4 JAWS | 39.4 S-JAWS | 3.3 WAR/162   Average HOF P (out of 66):     73.0 career WAR | 49.8 7yr-peak WAR | 61.4 JAWS | 56.8 S-JAWS | 4.5 WAR/162

Black ink, grey ink?  WTH stats are these?

Stats that quantify hall of famers.

tempo_n_groove

Jearlpam0925 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Jearlpam0925 said:

Baseball is the last sport to put you in the hall for championships won. Lester was consistently very good, and probably very much indeed the best FA signing of the Cubs. But is no way a hall of famer.

BA's JAWS score is my go-to:

Hall of Fame Statistics

 

Black Ink

Pitching - 8 (383), Average HOFer ≈ 40

Gray Ink

Pitching - 148 (119), Average HOFer ≈ 185

Hall of Fame Monitor

Pitching - 98 (105), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards

Pitching - 40 (78), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS

Starting Pitcher (149th):     44.2 career WAR | 34.6 7yr-peak WAR | 39.4 JAWS | 39.4 S-JAWS | 3.3 WAR/162   Average HOF P (out of 66):     73.0 career WAR | 49.8 7yr-peak WAR | 61.4 JAWS | 56.8 S-JAWS | 4.5 WAR/162

Black ink, grey ink?  WTH stats are these?

Stats that quantify hall of famers.

I clicked the links and that is an interesting way of calculating a HOFer.  There are some guys that hit good throughout their careers and never led a thing.  Odd but it happens.  I do think a HOFer should be in the top 5 or so in a few categories.

tempo_n_groove

I just went and looked at Jimmy Rollins' career and I changed my mind, he doesn't get in...

MayDay10

Im not sure where I come in on this.  I have always been kind of on the side of being punitive towards Bonds and Clemens especially, and to a lesser degree, Schilling.  I absolutely think it is hypocritical for these same voters to greenlight Ortiz.  

At this point though, there absolutely are roiders in the hall of fame.  They just didnt get caught or implicated.  I think Bonds, Clemens, and Schilling should be in at this point, but I do think they should somehow strip the HR records from Bonds (and McGuire) (and Sosa).  Aaron and Maris should still be the official HR record holders.  I think that is why I hate Bonds the most (and hated the other 2).  Basically cheapened those hallowed records.
I hated Clemens by the way he acted like a baby and a bully in face of the allegations. 

I think they should allow them in.  ARod should be in when it comes.  Induct Pete Rose and Joe Jackson too.  If Harold Baines gets in, these people should be in too.

pjhawks

tempo_n_groove said:

Jearlpam0925 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Jearlpam0925 said:

Baseball is the last sport to put you in the hall for championships won. Lester was consistently very good, and probably very much indeed the best FA signing of the Cubs. But is no way a hall of famer.

BA's JAWS score is my go-to:

Hall of Fame Statistics

 

Black Ink

Pitching - 8 (383), Average HOFer ≈ 40

Gray Ink

Pitching - 148 (119), Average HOFer ≈ 185

Hall of Fame Monitor

Pitching - 98 (105), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards

Pitching - 40 (78), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS

Starting Pitcher (149th):     44.2 career WAR | 34.6 7yr-peak WAR | 39.4 JAWS | 39.4 S-JAWS | 3.3 WAR/162   Average HOF P (out of 66):     73.0 career WAR | 49.8 7yr-peak WAR | 61.4 JAWS | 56.8 S-JAWS | 4.5 WAR/162

Black ink, grey ink?  WTH stats are these?

Stats that quantify hall of famers.

I clicked the links and that is an interesting way of calculating a HOFer.  There are some guys that hit good throughout their careers and never led a thing.  Odd but it happens.  I do think a HOFer should be in the top 5 or so in a few categories.

The question is do you reward a lot of years of good seasons or do you prefer less years but more dominant?  Personally I think if you are never one of the top 4 or 5 players  (pitchers top 10) at your position during at least a few seasons of your career you are not really a hall of famer.  

pjhawks

tempo_n_groove said:

I just went and looked at Jimmy Rollins' career and I changed my mind, he doesn't get in...

If you compare Rollins' numbers vs. other shortstops already in the Hall of Fame there is a very good argument he should be in.  Obviously his numbers vs other positions come up short.   Being a Philly fan I am biased and believe he should get in.

Ledbetterman10

pjhawks said:

tempo_n_groove said:

I just went and looked at Jimmy Rollins' career and I changed my mind, he doesn't get in...

If you compare Rollins' numbers vs. other shortstops already in the Hall of Fame there is a very good argument he should be in.  Obviously his numbers vs other positions come up short.   Being a Philly fan I am biased and believe he should get in.

And this goes tenfold for Utley and other second basemen. 

tempo_n_groove

pjhawks said:

tempo_n_groove said:

I just went and looked at Jimmy Rollins' career and I changed my mind, he doesn't get in...

If you compare Rollins' numbers vs. other shortstops already in the Hall of Fame there is a very good argument he should be in.  Obviously his numbers vs other positions come up short.   Being a Philly fan I am biased and believe he should get in.

He was better than Deroucher, Arky Vaughn and Rizzuto.  Everyone else had better numbers than him.

tempo_n_groove

pjhawks said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Jearlpam0925 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Jearlpam0925 said:

Baseball is the last sport to put you in the hall for championships won. Lester was consistently very good, and probably very much indeed the best FA signing of the Cubs. But is no way a hall of famer.

BA's JAWS score is my go-to:

Hall of Fame Statistics

 

Black Ink

Pitching - 8 (383), Average HOFer ≈ 40

Gray Ink

Pitching - 148 (119), Average HOFer ≈ 185

Hall of Fame Monitor

Pitching - 98 (105), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards

Pitching - 40 (78), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS

Starting Pitcher (149th):     44.2 career WAR | 34.6 7yr-peak WAR | 39.4 JAWS | 39.4 S-JAWS | 3.3 WAR/162   Average HOF P (out of 66):     73.0 career WAR | 49.8 7yr-peak WAR | 61.4 JAWS | 56.8 S-JAWS | 4.5 WAR/162

Black ink, grey ink?  WTH stats are these?

Stats that quantify hall of famers.

I clicked the links and that is an interesting way of calculating a HOFer.  There are some guys that hit good throughout their careers and never led a thing.  Odd but it happens.  I do think a HOFer should be in the top 5 or so in a few categories.

The question is do you reward a lot of years of good seasons or do you prefer less years but more dominant?  Personally I think if you are never one of the top 4 or 5 players  (pitchers top 10) at your position during at least a few seasons of your career you are not really a hall of famer.  

I believe you need to have both.  Minimum of 10 good years.  This is why Mattingly isn't in.  he didn't have 10 good years but he had 5 great ones.

SPEEDY MCCREADY

Nobody should be allowed in the Hall Of Fame, until Fred Mcgriff is enshrined. 
493 HR's and I am pretty damned sure he wasnt a steroid freak. 

igotid88

tempo_n_groove said:

Jearlpam0925 said:

Wobbie said:

Jearlpam0925 said:

I think Bumgarner and Lester are both on the outside looking in, but MadBum is closer than Lester imo because he has the next 6, 7, 8 years to change that.

yeah, except for right now he kinda sucks.

No doubt. Hopefully he can turn it around.

But at the end of the day I think the first ballot guys are: Kershaw, Verlander, Kershaw, Grienke. Also, I guess Grienke goes in as a Royal and Scherzer as a Nat? Talk about two dominant guys that have spent close to half their time as journeymen (using that term very, very loosely).

Now to some hot takes: Jimmy Rollins should be a HOFer, full stop.

Out of all the names I saw thrown around, I agree with this one.  Rollins was really good for a run.  Does Howard get a chance in later?
He didn't even get 5% and an argument could be made for him but I don't think he gets in.

Scott Rolen?  If he gets in then Vizquel should but he will never see the Hall for the batboy incident.

Modern pitchers Kershaw, Scherzer and Verlander get in for sure.  Grienke I don't know.  I think DeGrom and Buehler are both headed in the right direction for that.  Sale hasn't done enough.

I am on the fence w people like Andruw Jones.  Really good for a bit then fell off a cliff.  Beltre has 3000 hits so he gets in when eligible.

Many Ramirez should get more votes.  I think he should be in.

Kent, Sheffield, Helton and Petite are all fringe HOFers to me.  They were good but the numbers aren't there.

Sheffield and Pettitte should be in.  Especially if people are saying Schilling should be in. Pettitte is over 100 wins over .500. That has to account for something 

Wobbie

MayDay10 said:

 

At this point though, there absolutely are roiders in the hall of fame.  They just didnt get caught or implicated.  I think Bonds, Clemens, and Schilling should be in at this point, but I do think they should somehow strip the HR records from Bonds (and McGuire) (and Sosa).  Aaron and Maris should still be the official HR record holders.  I think that is why I hate Bonds the most (and hated the other 2).  Basically cheapened those hallowed records.

every "number" has circumstances.

Ruth - no night games, no pitchers of color, often saw the same picher 4-5 times per game

Aaron - they say if he had switched parks with Mays, Mays would have had the record

Bonds - more at bats lost to intentional walks than the next two guys combined, faced 'roided pitchers, faced LOOGYs, hardly ever saw the same pitcher more than twice in a game