I think we need to be careful about thinking that this AZ law is about illegal immigration. It is not. It is about racial profiling.
If racial profiling is written into law in this way, then one can argue that racial profiling becomes the law of the land (or at least of AZ). So, all white men in expensive suits can be stopped in AZ because they may be selling subprime mortgages that they know are worthless and may be commiting fraud. If stopped, they will have to prove on the spot that they are not selling crap mortgages or land themselves a date with the AZ justice system.
So, it really has NOTHING to do with immigration reform. It only has to do with racial profiling. Immigration reform needs to happen, but don't be confused that this law begins that process.
Tonight on my way to my job as a custodial engineer (janitor) I'm going to stop by the corner unlicensed pharmacist (drug dealer) and then after work I will solicit the services of a sexual tension specialist (prostitute).
See how stupid that sounds?
Yes, I see how stupid you sound trying to make that comparison (though I knew you'd say it eventually).
Are you actually trying to suggest that calling them "illegal ALIENS" (your words) sounds less stupid? Or "illegals," which is dehumanizing? They are immigrants (do you deny this?) and the only difference between them and other immigrants is that they don't have their proper papers, thereby making them undocumented (you've actually already agreed on this point).
"Tonight I'm going to dinner with some aliens!" Really??
has anybody looked up the cost to American tax payers just to take care of illegals in this country...
I'm not sure but I bet it would put a pretty good dent in the country's daffiest. :?
Godfather.
Ooh! Great question! There was a great study about this - I'll have to try to find it - that showed that undocumented immigrants contribute their fair share to this country, so it's not a cost to us at all. (And many would argue that we benefit from it.)
I think we need to be careful about thinking that this AZ law is about illegal immigration. It is not. It is about racial profiling.
If racial profiling is written into law in this way, then one can argue that racial profiling becomes the law of the land (or at least of AZ). So, all white men in expensive suits can be stopped in AZ because they may be selling subprime mortgages that they know are worthless and may be commiting fraud. If stopped, they will have to prove on the spot that they are not selling crap mortgages or land themselves a date with the AZ justice system.
So, it really has NOTHING to do with immigration reform. It only has to do with racial profiling. Immigration reform needs to happen, but don't be confused that this law begins that process.
So, all white men in expensive suits can be stopped in AZ because they may be selling subprime mortgages that they know are worthless and may be commiting fraud. If stopped, they will have to prove on the spot that they are not selling crap mortgages or land themselves a date with the AZ justice system.
has anybody looked up the cost to American tax payers just to take care of illegals in this country...
I'm not sure but I bet it would put a pretty good dent in the country's daffiest. :?
Godfather.
Ooh! Great question! There was a great study about this - I'll have to try to find it - that showed that undocumented immigrants contribute their fair share to this country, so it's not a cost to us at all. (And many would argue that we benefit from it.)
It's kind of like the republican arugment that tort reform will magically drop medical costs. No matter how much this is debunked, it just keeps getting parroted.
My Grandfather didn't travel 4000 miles across the Atlantic to see a country over run by immigrants. He did it because he killed a man in back in Ireland.
Instead of running the risk of racial profiling they should just tat their foreheads with the flag from each individuals country of origin
+1
I am sure that will help many of us who are dark skinned American's avoid having to deal with police. But then we would have people falsifying flags on there foreheads- so we are still probably going to have to carry more documentation .... damn... :evil:
2) they shouldn't be here until they have the proper paper work and besides most of them don't bother with paper work when they cross the border illegally.
Okay, I agree that, ideally, they shouldn't be here until they have completed the proper paperwork and that it's a crime to not do so. But do you think people who commit no other crime than this one should be treated like shit, as if they are violent criminals, or do you think they should be punished in a way that is more fitting of their actual crime and treated with compassion and respect, as our fellow human beings? Do you think they deserve our contempt?
When have they been treated as violent criminals?
compassion, respect, ......coming from you
Why is it okay with you to be a criminal?
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
2) they shouldn't be here until they have the proper paper work and besides most of them don't bother with paper work when they cross the border illegally.
Okay, I agree that, ideally, they shouldn't be here until they have completed the proper paperwork and that it's a crime to not do so. But do you think people who commit no other crime than this one should be treated like shit, as if they are violent criminals, or do you think they should be punished in a way that is more fitting of their actual crime and treated with compassion and respect, as our fellow human beings? Do you think they deserve our contempt?
When have they been treated as violent criminals?
compassion, respect, ......coming from you
Why is it okay with you to be a criminal?
Seriously???? You don't have anything intelligent to say so you resort to insults that you can't even support? What are you, 12?? I guess I should be used to this coming from you by now, but it's still just sad.
I'm just getting sick of your hypocrisy and double talk......
you just repeat what you hear
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
I'm just getting sick of your hypocrisy and double talk......
you just repeat what you hear
Are you talking to me?? Again, WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???? :? :?
And if it is me you're accusing of hypocrisy, double-talk, and repeating what I hear (or even if it's someone else), why don't you try to back up what you say for once?? :roll:
I'm just getting sick of your hypocrisy and double talk......
you just repeat what you hear
Are you talking to me?? Again, WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???? :? :?
And if it is me you're accusing of hypocrisy, double-talk, and repeating what I hear (or even if it's someone else), why don't you try to back up what you say for once?? :roll:
don't feed the trolls....
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
I'm just getting sick of your hypocrisy and double talk......
you just repeat what you hear
Are you talking to me?? Again, WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???? :? :?
And if it is me you're accusing of hypocrisy, double-talk, and repeating what I hear (or even if it's someone else), why don't you try to back up what you say for once?? :roll:
I'm just getting sick of your hypocrisy and double talk......
you just repeat what you hear
Are you talking to me?? Again, WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???? :? :?
And if it is me you're accusing of hypocrisy, double-talk, and repeating what I hear (or even if it's someone else), why don't you try to back up what you say for once?? :roll:
prfctlefts wrote:
So what should they do then. It's easy for all of you to criticize the Arizona govenor for signing this bill,but What if it was your state that was in a state of emergency. What if you lived on the southern boarder that was being controlled by Mexican drug lords ? If the Federal Gov ware doing their damn job(protecting it's citizens ) and not worried about votes we wouldn't be having this problem.
by scb » 24 Apr 2010 18:27
I live on the southern border and we're not even considering enacting such a law.
You state this insinuating you have no problems in your state with illegal aliens.....when your state really did have a problem with illegal aliens driving illegally.....
So instead of enforcing the law your state just changes the laws when they become inconvenient .... Such as letting illegal aliens have a drivers license.... you guys are just adding to the problem and catering to law breakers
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
I'm just getting sick of your hypocrisy and double talk......
you just repeat what you hear
Are you talking to me?? Again, WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???? :? :?
And if it is me you're accusing of hypocrisy, double-talk, and repeating what I hear (or even if it's someone else), why don't you try to back up what you say for once?? :roll:
prfctlefts wrote:
So what should they do then. It's easy for all of you to criticize the Arizona govenor for signing this bill,but What if it was your state that was in a state of emergency. What if you lived on the southern boarder that was being controlled by Mexican drug lords ? If the Federal Gov ware doing their damn job(protecting it's citizens ) and not worried about votes we wouldn't be having this problem.
by scb » 24 Apr 2010 18:27
I live on the southern border and we're not even considering enacting such a law.
You state this insinuating you have no problems in your state with illegal aliens.....when your state really did have a problem with illegal aliens driving illegally.....
So instead of enforcing the law your state just changes the laws when they become inconvenient .... Such as letting illegal aliens have a drivers license.... you guys are just adding to the problem and catering to law breakers
1. You insulted me and can't even back it up. :roll:
2. I have not contradicted myself at all. As you yourself have pointed out, I said we don't feel the need to enact such a law; I NEVER said we have ZERO problems. It's not my fault your reading comprehension skills are lacking. Perhaps you were poorly educated because your school was overrun by the children of illegal immigrants.
3. My state can make whatever state laws we want to; we're not hurting anyone. We did not change immigration law; we enacted a law that is in the best interest of the citizens of our state and we stand by that law. If you think it's a problem for undocumented immigrants to have drivers licenses, I encourage you to stay the fuck out of New Mexico. And if you agree with prfctlfts that it's a problem for people to be driving without drivers licenses and insurance, then you're a hypocrite. So which is it?
My Grandfather didn't travel 4000 miles across the Atlantic to see a country over run by immigrants. He did it because he killed a man in back in Ireland.
Wow. Excellent article. The parts I found particularly interesting were: 1) There are 29 black kids for every 1 kid in juvenile detention. 2) The concept of protecting OUR kids. I really think it's all about fear/disrespect of the "other". I can see how this can be a somewhat natural human tendency, but I think we have to consciously put an end to it. 3) How the white kids are given breaks on their charges. This, of course, leads to further breaks down the line because their records appear to be cleaner than they should be. I know this happens because it happens to me. I don't really break the law and I drive pretty well but, as I've said, when I do get pulled over for speeding I either don't get a ticket or the cop gives me a ticket but then has it dismissed. So now if I get pulled over, the cop notes that I have a perfectly clean record and that makes him less likely to give me a ticket. It's self-perpetuating privilege. (God I feel like I should shut up about all this privilege lest my "luck" come to an end!)
as you know I work in the county jail and I what this article talks about in terms of justice system inequities pretty translates to the adult system as well
and in terms of "illegals" when I am sitting in the discharge area of the jail INS is always there picking up people who are getting deported and what I find interesting is that none of them look like illegal immigrants..... some look white, some don't, some speak Spanish, some don't, some are from eastern Europe, majority are from Latin America. But they do not fit any profile or mold.
I would hate to have to pick the "illegals" out in a line up.....
I'm not saying people shouldn't get papers when they come to the U.S. I'm sure many/most of them would if they could. But oftentimes they can't, and everyone's circumstance is different. I just think most undocumented immigrants are good people who have committed no crime except for failure to complete costly, complicated paperwork and they, as a group, don't deserve the contempt and disrespect they receive from many Americans.
here in Chicago many crimes that are committed by Hispanics (I am not saying they commit most crimes but the ones committed by them) are done by LEGAL residents. The Latin Kings are growing exponentially here and they are all legal. This law would solve nothing here.
Chicago has a huge illegal alien population. Illinois is fifth in the nation IIRC for illegal population.
did you even read my post or were you sharing some new information you discovered on the internet?
I was not debating that Chicago has a huge illegal immigrant population I know they do and I have worked in a lot of restaurants here
but rounded them all up would solve none of our problems.... NONE of them, except much of the city would shut down... no restaurants would be open, no landscapers, etc
**CUBS GO ALL THE WAY IN......never **
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I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
That isn't my problem, let the restaurants close down. Maybe they will have to actually start hiring Americans that are looking for work.
Personally I believe the owners of these places should be jailed for employing illegal aliens.
If we want to crack down on all the companies hiring undocumented immigrants, I think that's more appropriate than just cracking down on the immigrants themselves. But we must then be prepared for the consequences to our economy, including an increased cost of food. Is everyone okay with that?
That isn't my problem, let the restaurants close down. Maybe they will have to actually start hiring Americans that are looking for work.
Personally I believe the owners of these places should be jailed for employing illegal aliens.
...
And so should the farmers, ranchers, landscape contractors, construction contractors, hotel owners, warehouse owners and ANYONE who picks up an illegal day laborer from the local Home Depot.
Who cares if the cost of a Grand Slam breakfast costs 16 bucks... if onions are a buck fifty apiece... if houses cost more as long as the problem is solved.
Everyone cries about 'Money, money, MONEY'... yet, will be willing to pay the increased cost of goods and services passed on to the consumer? I don't get it. Are Americans willing to do the same work... for the same pay? personally... I don't think so.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I'm amazed at all the discussion about the financial burden of illegal immigrants. Although I'm no economist, I bet they cost less to the American taxpayer than Goldman Sachs. The crap that white collar criminals get away with is far more costly, yet we're not passing any laws to deport any of them.
If we want to crack down on all the companies hiring undocumented immigrants, I think that's more appropriate than just cracking down on the immigrants themselves. But we must then be prepared for the consequences to our economy, including an increased cost of food. Is everyone okay with that?
fixing part of the problem wont work,btw we are paying the consequences right now with the cost
of housing,feeding,medical, etc. but you probley don't believe that do you, when they sneek over here and have babies we pay it and other medical cost not to mention the increase in crime (gang's and drug wars)
That isn't my problem, let the restaurants close down. Maybe they will have to actually start hiring Americans that are looking for work.
Personally I believe the owners of these places should be jailed for employing illegal aliens.
...
And so should the farmers, ranchers, landscape contractors, construction contractors, hotel owners, warehouse owners and ANYONE who picks up an illegal day laborer from the local Home Depot.
Who cares if the cost of a Grand Slam breakfast costs 16 bucks... if onions are a buck fifty apiece... if houses cost more as long as the problem is solved.
Everyone cries about 'Money, money, MONEY'... yet, will be willing to pay the increased cost of goods and services passed on to the consumer? I don't get it. Are Americans willing to do the same work... for the same pay? personally... I don't think so.
we don't have to do the same work for less pay this is America and what we built,having illegals work for less money is setting us back on the thing's that unions and hard working Americans have worked so to build.
JACK CAFFERTY: So Arizona passes a tough law against illegal immigration and suddenly they've got Washington's attention. One poll finds 70 percent of Arizona voters support this new law, so hey, maybe we better do something, too. And like the lemmings they are when they smell a chance to score some political points, and some of them need a lot of help with the midterms coming up, there is now talk of rushing immigration reform through Congress. President Obama called the Arizona law misguided. What's misguided, Mr. President, is the federal government's ongoing refusal to enforce the laws that are already on the books. Read the Arizona law. Parts of it are word-for-word the same as the federal statutes which continue to be all but ignored. Now we're hear all sorts of blathering from our Washington gerbils about the need for a new federal law. There'll be news conferences and interviews and committee hearings and draft legislation and polling, all the usual carnival acts that accompany any hot button Washington issue. Instead of simply closing the borders and enforcing the existing law so they could turn their attention to something like the national debt and the fact that the country is bankrupt, instead we're going to get this freak show. Washington's position on illegal immigration is patently dishonest from the top down. No enforcement, no border security. Just pandering to the Hispanic voters and the corporations that hire the illegals. And then, when one of our states that's being ravaged by the presence of 460,000 illegal aliens inside its borders does something about it, the President says that's misguided. What a shame. Here's the question: Will the federal government ever enforce our immigration laws?
"The really important thing is not to live, but to live well. And to live well meant, along with more enjoyable things in life, to live according to your principles."
— Socrates
Comments
If racial profiling is written into law in this way, then one can argue that racial profiling becomes the law of the land (or at least of AZ). So, all white men in expensive suits can be stopped in AZ because they may be selling subprime mortgages that they know are worthless and may be commiting fraud. If stopped, they will have to prove on the spot that they are not selling crap mortgages or land themselves a date with the AZ justice system.
So, it really has NOTHING to do with immigration reform. It only has to do with racial profiling. Immigration reform needs to happen, but don't be confused that this law begins that process.
Yes, I see how stupid you sound trying to make that comparison (though I knew you'd say it eventually).
Are you actually trying to suggest that calling them "illegal ALIENS" (your words) sounds less stupid? Or "illegals," which is dehumanizing? They are immigrants (do you deny this?) and the only difference between them and other immigrants is that they don't have their proper papers, thereby making them undocumented (you've actually already agreed on this point).
"Tonight I'm going to dinner with some aliens!" Really??
Ooh! Great question! There was a great study about this - I'll have to try to find it - that showed that undocumented immigrants contribute their fair share to this country, so it's not a cost to us at all. (And many would argue that we benefit from it.)
+1
It's kind of like the republican arugment that tort reform will magically drop medical costs. No matter how much this is debunked, it just keeps getting parroted.
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/281867/april-21-2010/the-word---no-problemo
+1
I am sure that will help many of us who are dark skinned American's avoid having to deal with police. But then we would have people falsifying flags on there foreheads- so we are still probably going to have to carry more documentation .... damn... :evil:
When have they been treated as violent criminals?
compassion, respect, ......coming from you
Why is it okay with you to be a criminal?
Seriously???? You don't have anything intelligent to say so you resort to insults that you can't even support? What are you, 12?? I guess I should be used to this coming from you by now, but it's still just sad.
you just repeat what you hear
Are you talking to me?? Again, WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???? :? :?
And if it is me you're accusing of hypocrisy, double-talk, and repeating what I hear (or even if it's someone else), why don't you try to back up what you say for once?? :roll:
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
I know, I know. Thanks.
prfctlefts wrote:
So what should they do then. It's easy for all of you to criticize the Arizona govenor for signing this bill,but What if it was your state that was in a state of emergency. What if you lived on the southern boarder that was being controlled by Mexican drug lords ? If the Federal Gov ware doing their damn job(protecting it's citizens ) and not worried about votes we wouldn't be having this problem.
by scb » 24 Apr 2010 18:27
I live on the southern border and we're not even considering enacting such a law.
You state this insinuating you have no problems in your state with illegal aliens.....when your state really did have a problem with illegal aliens driving illegally.....
So instead of enforcing the law your state just changes the laws when they become inconvenient .... Such as letting illegal aliens have a drivers license.... you guys are just adding to the problem and catering to law breakers
1. You insulted me and can't even back it up. :roll:
2. I have not contradicted myself at all. As you yourself have pointed out, I said we don't feel the need to enact such a law; I NEVER said we have ZERO problems. It's not my fault your reading comprehension skills are lacking. Perhaps you were poorly educated because your school was overrun by the children of illegal immigrants.
3. My state can make whatever state laws we want to; we're not hurting anyone. We did not change immigration law; we enacted a law that is in the best interest of the citizens of our state and we stand by that law. If you think it's a problem for undocumented immigrants to have drivers licenses, I encourage you to stay the fuck out of New Mexico. And if you agree with prfctlfts that it's a problem for people to be driving without drivers licenses and insurance, then you're a hypocrite. So which is it?
:roll:
and everything you say is an original idea that you just came up with
as you know I work in the county jail and I what this article talks about in terms of justice system inequities pretty translates to the adult system as well
and in terms of "illegals" when I am sitting in the discharge area of the jail INS is always there picking up people who are getting deported and what I find interesting is that none of them look like illegal immigrants..... some look white, some don't, some speak Spanish, some don't, some are from eastern Europe, majority are from Latin America. But they do not fit any profile or mold.
I would hate to have to pick the "illegals" out in a line up.....
did you even read my post or were you sharing some new information you discovered on the internet?
I was not debating that Chicago has a huge illegal immigrant population I know they do and I have worked in a lot of restaurants here
but rounded them all up would solve none of our problems.... NONE of them, except much of the city would shut down... no restaurants would be open, no landscapers, etc
Personally I believe the owners of these places should be jailed for employing illegal aliens.
And so should the farmers, ranchers, landscape contractors, construction contractors, hotel owners, warehouse owners and ANYONE who picks up an illegal day laborer from the local Home Depot.
Who cares if the cost of a Grand Slam breakfast costs 16 bucks... if onions are a buck fifty apiece... if houses cost more as long as the problem is solved.
Everyone cries about 'Money, money, MONEY'... yet, will be willing to pay the increased cost of goods and services passed on to the consumer? I don't get it. Are Americans willing to do the same work... for the same pay? personally... I don't think so.
Hail, Hail!!!
Exhibit A:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijeXGv9QLRc
fixing part of the problem wont work,btw we are paying the consequences right now with the cost
of housing,feeding,medical, etc. but you probley don't believe that do you, when they sneek over here and have babies we pay it and other medical cost not to mention the increase in crime (gang's and drug wars)
Godfather.
we don't have to do the same work for less pay this is America and what we built,having illegals work for less money is setting us back on the thing's that unions and hard working Americans have worked so to build.
Godfather.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/vp ... 8#36791568
I just got a new computer at work ....no friggin sound,I'll check it out tonight.
Godfather.
— Socrates