Dedicated to Arizona Lawmakers

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prfctlefts wrote:

So what should they do then. It's easy for all of you to criticize the Arizona govenor for signing this bill,but What if it was your state that was in a state of emergency. What if you lived on the southern boarder that was being controlled by Mexican drug lords ? If the Federal Gov ware doing their damn job(protecting it's citizens ) and not worried about votes we wouldn't be having this problem.

I live on the southern border and we're not even considering enacting such a law.

_

Godfather. wrote:

bullshit on the profiling non-sense we all get profiled... everybody!

I beg to differ. I live on the southern border and have blonde hair and blue eyes and I NEVER get profiled in this way. Never. I go back and forth through the border patrol station all the time and they don't even make me come to a complete stop.

When I was with my ex-boyfriend who was a natural born American citizen who was half Hispanic, however, we were stopped and questioned every time. He would even pull over just before the border patrol station (which was about 60 miles into the U.S., so we hadn't even been out of the country) to change his shirt if he were wearing anything like an image of the Virgin Mary or some such thing, just to limit his harassment. We were on a trolley coming back across the Mexican border once and he was singled out to be pulled off and interrogated - and they kept questioning him despite him having a U.S. driver's license and speaking perfect English.

Again, this sort of thing never happens to me or my family.

Dirtie_Frank

scb wrote:

unsung wrote:

Do you understand the difference between legal and illegal?

Paperwork.

Bullshit. How about waiting in line like the people who do it legally? They waited and now are citizens the way our laws are written.

unsung

scb wrote:

unsung wrote:

Do you understand the difference between legal and illegal?

Paperwork.

True. But it is what the law requires.

_

Dirtie_Frank wrote:

scb wrote:

unsung wrote:

Do you understand the difference between legal and illegal?

Paperwork.

Bullshit. How about waiting in line like the people who do it legally? They waited and now are citizens the way our laws are written.

What other difference is there between two human beings - one who has immigrated here legally and one who has done so illegally - than that the latter has not completed the proper paperwork?

_

unsung wrote:

scb wrote:

unsung wrote:

Do you understand the difference between legal and illegal?

Paperwork.

True. But it is what the law requires.

I'd like us to consider other situations in which the law requires us to complete paperwork, and how we feel about and what penalties we impose upon people who haven't completed the paperwork in these situations.

What about people who fish without completing the proper paperwork for a fishing license? Should they be arrested and treated like hardened criminals? Do you - or others in the country - feel the same contempt for them that you express for undocumented immigrants?

Ooh, here's another one... what about people in the coming years who fail to get the required health insurance? Should we enact laws to allow them and people who look like them to be harassed? Should they be viewed as lesser human beings? Should they be turned away from hospitals when they're in labor? Should their children be denied public education? Should we go to their workplaces and round them all up like animals?

unsung

We are citizens of this country, they are not.

The ironic thing is look at Mexico's immigration laws and how they treat Central Americans. Then they have the audacity to protest our lax laws. They have some of the most strict immigration laws in the world.

_

unsung wrote:

We are citizens of this country, they are not.

So? We're talking about breaking the law by failing to file some paperwork. It's the same type of crime for all three scenarios. Why do we have such vastly different ideas about non-Americans vs. Americans who commit the same type of crime? Because it's not really just about breaking the law; it's really about xenophobia.

We act like just because we happen to be citizens of this country we are better than those who are not and we have a right to treat them like shit, as if they are bad people who are not deserving of our respect, when really the only difference between us and them is location of birth and/or paperwork.

Really, we are only citizens of this country because our ancestors immigrated here illegally and took this land by force from the ancestors of the people we now say don't belong here. What's that saying? "We didn't cross the border; the border crossed us."

Regardless, this new law encourages the harassment not of illegal immigrants or non-citizens, but of anyone - including legal American citizens - of Hispanic descent. Again, that's about racism and xenophobia, not about upholding the law.

Edit to add: I really don't understand how so many of the same people who are supposedly fighting against the government taking away our freedoms/rights can actually support a law that so blatantly allows the government to take away our freedoms/rights - the rights of American CITIZENS! I guess it's okay to take away Americans' rights when the Americans don't look like you think they should.

So now let me see if I can get this straight: Laws which help (by providing healthcare) American citizens who don't look like me are a violation of American freedoms, but laws which hurt (by encouraging harassment of) American citizens who don't look like me are not a violation of American freedoms and are to be supported. :? Again, it seems to me like some groups in this country don't really support Americans at all, as they claim they do, but really only support Americans who are like them.

Godfather.

scb wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

bullshit on the profiling non-sense we all get profiled... everybody!

I beg to differ. I live on the southern border and have blonde hair and blue eyes and I NEVER get profiled in this way. Never. I go back and forth through the border patrol station all the time and they don't even make me come to a complete stop.

When I was with my ex-boyfriend who was a natural born American citizen who was half Hispanic, however, we were stopped and questioned every time. He would even pull over just before the border patrol station (which was about 60 miles into the U.S., so we hadn't even been out of the country) to change his shirt if he were wearing anything like an image of the Virgin Mary or some such thing, just to limit his harassment. We were on a trolley coming back across the Mexican border once and he was singled out to be pulled off and interrogated - and they kept questioning him despite him having a U.S. driver's license and speaking perfect English.

Again, this sort of thing never happens to me or my family.

have you ever been pulled over by the police ? went through a airport security check ?...you've been profiled trust me.
profiling for different areas people places and things , blond hair and blue eyes dose not a hispanic make..
but your friend who looks to be hispanic will be profiled and depending on what they're looking for at the time
you may have been profiled and not even known it, they didn't let you pass and not notice your blond and blue
hence you have been profiled.
there is more to profiling than skin color there is a list of thing they watch like body movement , facial expressions ,clothing, what your driving and dose it fit in the area your traveling through so if your in a border area and your hispanic well then you can count on being profiled and or stopped,believe it or not they catch a lot of bad guys this way,
I've known some bad guys and at first glance you might think they're the nicest person you ever met
and have no idea who they really are or what they're really like......well I'm finished.

Godfather.

Godfather.

scb wrote:

unsung wrote:

We are citizens of this country, they are not.

So? We're talking about breaking the law by failing to file some paperwork. It's the same type of crime for all three scenarios. Why do we have such vastly different ideas about non-Americans vs. Americans who commit the same type of crime? Because it's not really just about breaking the law; it's really about xenophobia.

We act like just because we happen to be citizens of this country we are better than those who are not and we have a right to treat them like shit, as if they are bad people who are not deserving of our respect, when really the only difference between us and them is location of birth and/or paperwork.

Really, we are only citizens of this country because our ancestors immigrated here illegally and took this land by force from the ancestors of the people we now say don't belong here. What's that saying? "We didn't cross the border; the border crossed us."

Regardless, this new law encourages the harassment not of illegal immigrants or non-citizens, but of anyone - including legal American citizens - of Hispanic descent. Again, that's about racism and xenophobia, not about upholding the law.

Edit to add: I really don't understand how so many of the same people who are supposedly fighting against the government taking away our freedoms/rights can actually support a law that so blatantly allows the government to take away our freedoms/rights - the rights of American CITIZENS! I guess it's okay to take away Americans' rights when the Americans don't look like you think they should.

So now let me see if I can get this straight: Laws which help (by providing healthcare) American citizens who don't look like me are a violation of American freedoms, but laws which hurt (by encouraging harassment of) American citizens who don't look like me are not a violation of American freedoms and are to be supported. :? Again, it seems to me like some groups in this country don't really support Americans at all, as they claim they do, but really only support Americans who are like them.

scb your joking right ?

Godfather.

dasvidana

Anyone who says this isn't about racism isn't paying attention. Our country has done this to many different ethnicities/cultural groups in the past.....African-Americans, Asians, Irish, Native Americans, etc. I guess we can now add Hispanics to the list.

stickfig13

prfctlefts wrote:

So what should they do then. It's easy for all of you to criticize the Arizona govenor for signing this bill,but What if it was your state that was in a state of emergency. What if you lived on the southern boarder that was being controlled by Mexican drug lords ? If the Federal Gov ware doing their damn job(protecting it's citizens ) and not worried about votes we wouldn't be having this problem.


We’ve had numerous officers that have been killed by illegal immigrants in Arizona,” Pinal County Sheriff Paul Babeu said Monday at a Capitol Hill news conference. “And that shouldn’t happen one time.”

Babeu said the violence in Arizona has reached “epidemic proportions” and must be stopped. “In just one patrol area, we’ve had 64 pursuits — failure to yield for an officer — in one month,” Babeu said. “That’s out of control.”

Only Illegals commit crimes?

Crime is crime

Dirtie_Frank

scb wrote:

unsung wrote:

We are citizens of this country, they are not.

So? We're talking about breaking the law by failing to file some paperwork. It's the same type of crime for all three scenarios. Why do we have such vastly different ideas about non-Americans vs. Americans who commit the same type of crime? Because it's not really just about breaking the law; it's really about xenophobia.

We act like just because we happen to be citizens of this country we are better than those who are not and we have a right to treat them like shit, as if they are bad people who are not deserving of our respect, when really the only difference between us and them is location of birth and/or paperwork.

Really, we are only citizens of this country because our ancestors immigrated here illegally and took this land by force from the ancestors of the people we now say don't belong here. What's that saying? "We didn't cross the border; the border crossed us."

Regardless, this new law encourages the harassment not of illegal immigrants or non-citizens, but of anyone - including legal American citizens - of Hispanic descent. Again, that's about racism and xenophobia, not about upholding the law.

Edit to add: I really don't understand how so many of the same people who are supposedly fighting against the government taking away our freedoms/rights can actually support a law that so blatantly allows the government to take away our freedoms/rights - the rights of American CITIZENS! I guess it's okay to take away Americans' rights when the Americans don't look like you think they should.

So now let me see if I can get this straight: Laws which help (by providing healthcare) American citizens who don't look like me are a violation of American freedoms, but laws which hurt (by encouraging harassment of) American citizens who don't look like me are not a violation of American freedoms and are to be supported. :? Again, it seems to me like some groups in this country don't really support Americans at all, as they claim they do, but really only support Americans who are like them.

There are quotas of the amount of people that can migrate in. What is wrong with becoming a citizen the legal way? I am sure they are all great people too right? I have no problem with any Mexican, Guatemalan or whatever country someone is from becoming a citizen as long as it is done right. What is wrong with that?

_

Godfather. wrote:

have you ever been pulled over by the police ? went through a airport security check ?...you've been profiled trust me.
profiling for different areas people places and things , blond hair and blue eyes dose not a hispanic make..
but your friend who looks to be hispanic will be profiled and depending on what they're looking for at the time
you may have been profiled and not even known it, they didn't let you pass and not notice your blond and blue
hence you have been profiled.
there is more to profiling than skin color there is a list of thing they watch like body movement , facial expressions ,clothing, what your driving and dose it fit in the area your traveling through so if your in a border area and your hispanic well then you can count on being profiled and or stopped,believe it or not they catch a lot of bad guys this way,
I've known some bad guys and at first glance you might think they're the nicest person you ever met
and have no idea who they really are or what they're really like......well I'm finished.

Godfather.

But I think you're kind of proving my point.

When I said I was never profiled, I meant I was never singled out for harassment because of my race. I used the word profiled in that way because you were responding to a post about how people were going to be singled out for harassment because of their race when you called bullshit and said everyone gets profiled.

Since you're now defining profiling as being assessed for whether or not a law enforcement officer wants to single you out for harassment, then of course I've been profiled. But the result of all that profiling is that I have never been stopped by immigration, I have been stopped by police but never received a ticket that wasn't dismissed (and have rarely even received one in the first place), and the only time I've been pulled out of line at the airport to have my stuff searched was in London at 8 AM when I was still shit-faced from the night before (so I was rightfully profiled for my actions, not the color of my skin).

Additionally, my ex knew they looked for things like clothing & what you're driving, etc., and was therefore sure to never wear clothing that would draw attention. And he was always driving MY car - the same one they waved through when I was alone! As far as fitting the area you're driving through... isn't it perfectly reasonable to be a half-Hispanic person in the middle of New Mexico??

And your point about bad guys not looking a certain way is an argument against the merit of profiling as well.

The part I underlined is TOTALLY what I and others are trying to say happens/will happen. So you agree, then, that Hispanics will be constantly profiled and stopped under this law? Do you just not have a problem with that? :?

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Godfather. wrote:

scb wrote:

unsung wrote:

We are citizens of this country, they are not.

So? We're talking about breaking the law by failing to file some paperwork. It's the same type of crime for all three scenarios. Why do we have such vastly different ideas about non-Americans vs. Americans who commit the same type of crime? Because it's not really just about breaking the law; it's really about xenophobia.

We act like just because we happen to be citizens of this country we are better than those who are not and we have a right to treat them like shit, as if they are bad people who are not deserving of our respect, when really the only difference between us and them is location of birth and/or paperwork.

Really, we are only citizens of this country because our ancestors immigrated here illegally and took this land by force from the ancestors of the people we now say don't belong here. What's that saying? "We didn't cross the border; the border crossed us."

Regardless, this new law encourages the harassment not of illegal immigrants or non-citizens, but of anyone - including legal American citizens - of Hispanic descent. Again, that's about racism and xenophobia, not about upholding the law.

Edit to add: I really don't understand how so many of the same people who are supposedly fighting against the government taking away our freedoms/rights can actually support a law that so blatantly allows the government to take away our freedoms/rights - the rights of American CITIZENS! I guess it's okay to take away Americans' rights when the Americans don't look like you think they should.

So now let me see if I can get this straight: Laws which help (by providing healthcare) American citizens who don't look like me are a violation of American freedoms, but laws which hurt (by encouraging harassment of) American citizens who don't look like me are not a violation of American freedoms and are to be supported. :? Again, it seems to me like some groups in this country don't really support Americans at all, as they claim they do, but really only support Americans who are like them.

scb your joking right ?

Godfather.

No, I'm not joking. (But thanks for checking.) I believe:

1. It's not right to harass American citizens (or legal immigrants) just because they appear to be Hispanic.

2. Undocumented immigrants deserve to be treated with the same respect we would expect had we committed no crime but the failure to complete some paperwork.

Do you disagree? Or were you referring to something else?

_

dasvidana wrote:

Anyone who says this isn't about racism isn't paying attention. Our country has done this to many different ethnicities/cultural groups in the past.....African-Americans, Asians, Irish, Native Americans, etc. I guess we can now add Hispanics to the list.

I would add that this law will probably also result in greater harassment of the many Native Americans who live in Arizona, thereby furthering the atrocities committed against them. :(

_

Dirtie_Frank wrote:

There are quotas of the amount of people that can migrate in. What is wrong with becoming a citizen the legal way? I am sure they are all great people too right? I have no problem with any Mexican, Guatemalan or whatever country someone is from becoming a citizen as long as it is done right. What is wrong with that?

I'm not saying people shouldn't get papers when they come to the U.S. I'm sure many/most of them would if they could. But oftentimes they can't, and everyone's circumstance is different. I just think most undocumented immigrants are good people who have committed no crime except for failure to complete costly, complicated paperwork and they, as a group, don't deserve the contempt and disrespect they receive from many Americans.

Godfather.

scb wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

have you ever been pulled over by the police ? went through a airport security check ?...you've been profiled trust me.
profiling for different areas people places and things , blond hair and blue eyes dose not a hispanic make..
but your friend who looks to be hispanic will be profiled and depending on what they're looking for at the time
you may have been profiled and not even known it, they didn't let you pass and not notice your blond and blue
hence you have been profiled.
there is more to profiling than skin color there is a list of thing they watch like body movement , facial expressions ,clothing, what your driving and dose it fit in the area your traveling through so if your in a border area and your hispanic well then you can count on being profiled and or stopped,believe it or not they catch a lot of bad guys this way,
I've known some bad guys and at first glance you might think they're the nicest person you ever met
and have no idea who they really are or what they're really like......well I'm finished.

Godfather.

But I think you're kind of proving my point.

When I said I was never profiled, I meant I was never singled out for harassment because of my race. I used the word profiled in that way because you were responding to a post about how people were going to be singled out for harassment because of their race when you called bullshit and said everyone gets profiled.

Since you're now defining profiling as being assessed for whether or not a law enforcement officer wants to single you out for harassment, then of course I've been profiled. But the result of all that profiling is that I have never been stopped by immigration, I have been stopped by police but never received a ticket that wasn't dismissed (and have rarely even received one in the first place), and the only time I've been pulled out of line at the airport to have my stuff searched was in London at 8 AM when I was still shit-faced from the night before (so I was rightfully profiled for my actions, not the color of my skin).

Additionally, my ex knew they looked for things like clothing & what you're driving, etc., and was therefore sure to never wear clothing that would draw attention. And he was always driving MY car - the same one they waved through when I was alone! As far as fitting the area you're driving through... isn't it perfectly reasonable to be a half-Hispanic person in the middle of New Mexico??

And your point about bad guys not looking a certain way is an argument against the merit of profiling as well.

The part I underlined is TOTALLY what I and others are trying to say happens/will happen. So you agree, then, that Hispanics will be constantly profiled and stopped under this law? Do you just not have a problem with that? :?

no I don't believe hispanics will be singled out but I do agree with you that some that are American citizens
will get checked because they are hispanic, bottom line to me is that if this is what it's going to take to remove the illegals that are here from any country than so be it.
wish we could ask that farmers family and friends what they think of the new law, the people that killed him
do this kind of thing and not think twice about it then head back into mexico so where is the justus there and how do you find people like that with out checking everybody that fits the profile, this town in Az. may have been feed up and pushed into this situation to pass a new law and it's a shame that good people will be asked for proof of citizenship but the people can't just let this keep happening.

Godfather.

WaveCameCrashin

blackredyellow wrote:

prfctlefts wrote:

So what should they do then. It's easy for all of you to criticize the Arizona govenor for signing this bill,but What if it was your state that was in a state of emergency. What if you lived on the southern boarder that was being controlled by Mexican drug lords ? If the Federal Gov ware doing their damn job(protecting it's citizens ) and not worried about votes we wouldn't be having this problem.

But how does randomly stopping mexican looking people solve anything... just imagine you are of mexican decent and run to pick up your kid at school (without your wallet). You happen to run into a bad cop who decides to question your citizenship... you don't have your wallet so you can't prove anything and he decides to detain you on his "suspicion"... how would you feel about that? Your kid is stranded in front of school while you are at the police station trying to justify that you are every bit of a citizen as the cop who brought you there.

Look, if someone is arrested for a crime and they are found to be here illegally, do what ever you can... deport them, add additional charges, whatever works the best, but allowing cops to harass random hispanic people is nothing more than two wrongs trying to make a right.

How are the cops going to know if they don't ask?
That's like saying we shouldn't have check points on holidays like NYE, Labor day ect.... to help keep drunks off the road is it not. Or we might as well not even have people checked at the boarder when entering here, and as far as not having your wallet goes.. Leave all your documents in the glove compartment and you wont have any problems.I know this may and is probably going to ba a hassle for some but so what... Life's not fair.. And who said anything about cops harrasing random hispanics ?? Again I ask you.. Do you think cops are harrasing people when they have checkpoints looking for people driving under the influence ?

Godfather.

1) agreed

2) they shouldn't be here until they have the proper paper work and besides most of them don't bother with paper work when they cross the border illegally.

sbc sorry about the "are you joking" reply I'm not discounting your opinion on the matter,this is what you and some other people strongly believe and you are not wrong in your believes, and I believe what I have stated,
opinions differ but it is cool learning from other people thanks.

Godfather.