i'm kind of confused i guess cos i've only skipped over most of this thread but are people actually insinuating that being obese doesn't pose a threat to your health?
not insinuating...I am stating it as actually recognized scientific evidence that being in the "overweight" range is actually better for your health than being "normal". however the higher and lower you go the worse it is for you.
p.s. jose i usually agree with you on things, and didn't mean to pick on your thread i've just been doing research on this for the past year plus.
Just curious, but do you have any links?
I've always heard/read that even a few pounds over weight can reduce lifespan and calorie reduction can slow down the aging process, so long as you're getting all your nutrients. Everything I'm finding online points to this conclusion. I'd like to read about the other study.
Anyways, obese people are usually 30 or more pounds over weight. I don't think we are talking about people who are a few pounds over.
This is the best I got for a popular source. http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... s%3Disch:1. Even for a blog post it has some of the key pieces of research. I think the comment section is very interesting as well.
This is the best I got for a popular source. http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... s%3Disch:1. Even for a blog post it has some of the key pieces of research. I think the comment section is very interesting as well.
What I'm getting from that, is people who are already extremely overweight.. I don't think somebody dropping from 300 to 280 is going to make them healthier, and in fact, loosing and gaining large amounts of weight is a shock to the system. It's not healthy to gain or loose more than 5 lbs a month.
Some people genuinely don't have a clue about nutrition and what it takes to maintain a healthy body.
Well that's different than what I thought you were saying and I can agree with this to a great extent. That said, I still don't think it sounded like she is one of those people, even given what she said about diets not working. And I still do think that education about health and nutrition is best done in a supportive way rather than in a kick in the ass kind of way.
How do you know she has a tremendous capacity to love? She might not. And what's to say I don't have a tremendous capacity to love? I might have.
I didn't say she DID; I only said IF she did. She might. And if not her, then surely someone else otherwise like her does. And I didn't say you don't have a tremendous capacity to love; I only repeated what you said about only loving those people you are close to, though I would suggest this limits your (or is a result of limited) capacity to love.
Nothing beats "The Big Fat Ugly". Just impossible.
"For $25 you can buy a sandwich called "Big Fat Ugly". It consists of two rolls, four cheeseburgers, a double cheesesteak, a chicken cheesesteak, gyro meat, grilled chicken, bacon, sausage, mozzarella sticks, chicken fingers, chicken nuggets, mac n cheese bites, fried mushrooms, jalapeño poppers, pizza bites, onion rings, hash browns, American cheese, mayo, and ketchup. Eat this six pound, football-sized monster in less than 15 minutes and your sandwich is free."
Well that's different than what I thought you were saying and I can agree with this to a great extent. That said, I still don't think it sounded like she is one of those people, even given what she said about diets not working. And I still do think that education about health and nutrition is best done in a supportive way rather than in a kick in the ass kind of way.
I think it's a huge part of the problem, not all of the millions of over-weight people in the world are suffering from emotional issues that lead them to comfort eat.
I didn't say she DID; I only said IF she did. She might. And if not her, then surely someone else otherwise like her does. And I didn't say you don't have a tremendous capacity to love; I only repeated what you said about only loving those people you are close to, though I would suggest this limits your (or is a result of limited) capacity to love.
Well I wasn't always close to those people! What I was getting at is that I'm not going to make endless efforts to love people that I don't even like. I can certainly tollerate those people if I have to, and I'm always open to having my mind changed.
Well that's different than what I thought you were saying and I can agree with this to a great extent. That said, I still don't think it sounded like she is one of those people, even given what she said about diets not working. And I still do think that education about health and nutrition is best done in a supportive way rather than in a kick in the ass kind of way.
I think it's a huge part of the problem, not all of the millions of over-weight people in the world are suffering from emotional issues that lead them to comfort eat.
I didn't say she DID; I only said IF she did. She might. And if not her, then surely someone else otherwise like her does. And I didn't say you don't have a tremendous capacity to love; I only repeated what you said about only loving those people you are close to, though I would suggest this limits your (or is a result of limited) capacity to love.
Well I wasn't always close to those people! What I was getting at is that I'm not going to make endless efforts to love people that I don't even like. I can certainly tollerate those people if I have to, and I'm always open to having my mind changed.
Regarding nutrition education, comfort eating, et cetera: I think it's way more complex than either of these things and the issue will not be solved by oversimplification.
Regarding love: I don't think you understand what I (and I would venture to say Pandora) was saying. But I guess that's less relevant to this thread.
I can't speak about other countries, but just looking around here I would say that it's gotten to the point where about 2/3 of the population over 22 is fat.
I don't think it only applies to under 22. Look at kids these days. They are fat at a very young age. They don't play outside as much as in past generations. They sit in front of video games. They also have these things called "play dates" instead of just going out to play. They are the kids of "the McDonalds" generation.
I think we will see the mortality age get lower as these kids grow up.
Do they still have the President's Fitness Program like they did when I went to school?
Something has to be done to get kids active and eating better. In the summer, I use to see lots of kids on the street playing, now they are all inside all the time playing this or that, or watching T.V.
Get them out of the house into physical play and feed them better foods!!
Regarding love: I don't think you understand what I (and I would venture to say Pandora) was saying. But I guess that's less relevant to this thread.
I understand it perfectly, I just disagree, I think it's self-righteous and unrealistic.
Self righteous is often used in a derogatory manner so I guess I should be offended. The definition implies I or my statements are of smug moral superiority, that I feel greater than the average person due to virtue.
Actually in my original post I am only pleading for the general population to try to be respectful if they indeed can not understand and be compassionate. If I am being unrealistic to believe by opening your heart any one of us can love a morbidly obese person then please leave me to my delusion because I don't want to be a part of world where this is not possible.
There those beautiful words again are spinning in my head "try a little tenderness" and "Lord knows I can't change"
because not everyone fits in a size 12 mold.
Self righteous is often used in a derogatory manner so I guess I should be offended. The definition implies I or my statements are of smug moral superiority, that I feel greater than the average person due to virtue.
Actually in my original post I am only pleading for the general population to try to be respectful if they indeed can not understand and be compassionate. If I am being unrealistic to believe by opening your heart any one of us can love a morbidly obese person then please leave me to my delusion because I don't want to be a part of world where this is not possible.
There those beautiful words again are spinning in my head "try a little tenderness" and "Lord knows I can't change"
because not everyone fits in a size 12 mold.
It's okay; I think it's obvious that he doesn't understand what I/we were saying. And size 12?! People get shit for even being that big! You have to be a size 5/7 these days to fit the "ideal" mold.
Self righteous is often used in a derogatory manner so I guess I should be offended. The definition implies I or my statements are of smug moral superiority, that I feel greater than the average person due to virtue.
Actually in my original post I am only pleading for the general population to try to be respectful if they indeed can not understand and be compassionate. If I am being unrealistic to believe by opening your heart any one of us can love a morbidly obese person then please leave me to my delusion because I don't want to be a part of world where this is not possible.
There those beautiful words again are spinning in my head "try a little tenderness" and "Lord knows I can't change"
because not everyone fits in a size 12 mold.
Actually size has very little to do with the point I'm making. What I'm trying to say is that I know I'm not going to like or love every person I meet, I'm ok with that. It's human nature to judge people, even if it's on a sub-conscious level. And it works both ways, what makes you closer to your friends than you are to an annoying work colleague? At some point you will have judged that their particular qualities appeal to you more in some way or another.
At no point did I say that a morbidly obese person wasn't worthy of love, but if you love a person that much you should also respect them by being honest and truthful with them. To be that over weight is unhealthy, no ifs, no buts, it just is - and if you want to see that person live without a whole host of ailments and to see them live longer then would you not try what you could to help them?
Self righteous is often used in a derogatory manner so I guess I should be offended. The definition implies I or my statements are of smug moral superiority, that I feel greater than the average person due to virtue.
Actually in my original post I am only pleading for the general population to try to be respectful if they indeed can not understand and be compassionate. If I am being unrealistic to believe by opening your heart any one of us can love a morbidly obese person then please leave me to my delusion because I don't want to be a part of world where this is not possible.
There those beautiful words again are spinning in my head "try a little tenderness" and "Lord knows I can't change"
because not everyone fits in a size 12 mold.
Actually size has very little to do with the point I'm making. What I'm trying to say is that I know I'm not going to like or love every person I meet, I'm ok with that. It's human nature to judge people, even if it's on a sub-conscious level. And it works both ways, what makes you closer to your friends than you are to an annoying work colleague? At some point you will have judged that their particular qualities appeal to you more in some way or another.
At no point did I say that a morbidly obese person wasn't worthy of love, but if you love a person that much you should also respect them by being honest and truthful with them. To be that over weight is unhealthy, no ifs, no buts, it just is - and if you want to see that person live without a whole host of ailments and to see them live longer then would you not try what you could to help them?
Its funny about judging people because a huge percentage of the time we are wrong. We judge people, we don't try to understand, we are wrong in the judgement. We never knew what we missed.
There really isn't much chance of being right cause their are so many factors that make up who we are, why, where we are going."Don't judge a book by its cover"
I don't think bonding with people that are like you, your friends or whomever is the same as judging.
When I was injured last year, my entire life and the perception of myself changed. I was living compromised and thought it was the way my life would stay.
It was human nature for me to look around and bond with people in similar situations. Now before this happened I might have looked at these people and thought or judged that I knew how they were feeling, knew what was going with them, when in fact I was clueless.
I don't believe judging has to be human nature, we can consciously change that, but understanding should be. "Walk a mile in my shoes"
I'm not going to be very popular with this thought but it is how I feel.
Life isn't how long we live, its not a marathon, its the quality in which we live and our individual purpose or lessons that our soul must learn and leave with. And we can not second guess what that is for anyone. "Live and let live" and love.
Therefore the obese person who is perhaps living a life that is shortened , you believe you should help, I think by tough love, lose the weight. I say if that is what is within them they will, that they should be loved and respected as is, and allowed to fulfill their potential as they want to without judgement. The same can be said for smokers. We have an imperfect path we walk to learn, all of us.
I also really need to say I dislike debate. Its not in my nature, I know some here start threads just to do so, thats cool for them. I feel it is a civil way to argue and makes me uncomfortable and I am really not good at it.Therefore "tag I'm out" but I have a feeling you will probably want the last word, thats also cool.
I also really need to say I dislike debate. Its not in my nature, I know some here start threads just to do so, thats cool for them. I feel it is a civil way to argue and makes me uncomfortable and I am really not good at it.Therefore "tag I'm out" but I have a feeling you will probably want the last word, thats also cool.
The problem is that most judgement is sub-conscious, and it's the basis for which we understand everything. We assess things with reference to things we already know and make decisions based on that. I totally understand the notion that we should all be less quick to judge, and on a conscious level you are right, we should. But aiming towards being a kinder, more compassionate person, is not the same as not judging at all. For the record I think you've handled yourself perfectly well in this debate, even though we disagree one a few things. I'm not so much trying for the final word, I just want my opinion to be understood.
For me, I've cut out sugars, unless they are natural. I don't eat food unless its something my body could really use. No cake, no candy, no cookies, no ice cream..
My family thinks its weird I don't endulge in their desserts after dinner, but honestly, if I'm going to be unhealthy I'd rather have a beer, which is still MUCH healthier than sweets. Why put that crap in your body for a 30 second sugar high?
For me, I've cut out sugars, unless they are natural. I don't eat food unless its something my body could really use. No cake, no candy, no cookies, no ice cream..
My family thinks its weird I don't endulge in their desserts after dinner, but honestly, if I'm going to be unhealthy I'd rather have a beer, which is still MUCH healthier than sweets. Why put that crap in your body for a 30 second sugar high?
For me, I've cut out sugars, unless they are natural. I don't eat food unless its something my body could really use. No cake, no candy, no cookies, no ice cream..
My family thinks its weird I don't endulge in their desserts after dinner, but honestly, if I'm going to be unhealthy I'd rather have a beer, which is still MUCH healthier than sweets. Why put that crap in your body for a 30 second sugar high?
cos it tastes goooooooooooood
lol, people are sooooo brainwashed. My mom has a friend who is desperate to lose weight, but its embeded in her mind that you are supposed to have dessert with every meal.. EVERY meal! I think most people don't even realize it. It's normal to them.
I hate when I go to a restaurant, have a huge ass meal, and they expect you to order dessert... No lady, I just had a half pound cheeseburger, fries and three beers. How the fuck am I going to fit a cake in me? Are you trying to kill me?.. Yet to many people, this meal process is normal and sorry to tell them, but they're not going to loose weight making that drink a diet drink.
Actually size has very little to do with the point I'm making. What I'm trying to say is that I know I'm not going to like or love every person I meet, I'm ok with that. It's human nature to judge people, even if it's on a sub-conscious level. And it works both ways, what makes you closer to your friends than you are to an annoying work colleague? At some point you will have judged that their particular qualities appeal to you more in some way or another.
See, this is an example of how you don't understand what I'm saying. (I won't speak for Pandora.) You keep responding with comments about liking people and being close to people and judging whether or not you find their qualities appealing, all of which are completely irrelevant to what I'm talking about.
At no point did I say that a morbidly obese person wasn't worthy of love, but if you love a person that much you should also respect them by being honest and truthful with them. To be that over weight is unhealthy, no ifs, no buts, it just is - and if you want to see that person live without a whole host of ailments and to see them live longer then would you not try what you could to help them?
Regarding being honest and truthfull, some things go without saying. Not every overweight person needs to hear about it from every person who loves them. What they need is to be loved for who they are, regardless of their weight, and not get shit about it all the time. It's so fucking condescending of people to presume that overweight people are ignorant and need their help. One might even say it's unrealistic, self-righteous, and arrogant.
Regarding being unhealthy, as someone else has already pointed out, there is no criticism of the people who are unhealthily underweight or those who aren't overweight but who have the exact same bad, unhealthy habits you say are the real criticism of the overweight people. I know this is true because I've spent most of my life underweight but with horrible eating and exercise habits, and all the while I've received nothing but affirmation from society. If I was thin and I met you in a bar and went on and on about how much I love chocolate and hate exercise, I doubt you'd have the same reaction as you had to this woman.
People need to eat healthy not for how others percieve them, but for themselves.
Since people don't seem to have control, we probably need to go back to hunting and gathering, survival of the fittest to fix this. Man has become to detached from nature, and it will all eventually collapse...
Its funny about judging people because a huge percentage of the time we are wrong. We judge people, we don't try to understand, we are wrong in the judgement. We never knew what we missed.
There really isn't much chance of being right cause their are so many factors that make up who we are, why, where we are going."Don't judge a book by its cover"
I don't think bonding with people that are like you, your friends or whomever is the same as judging.
When I was injured last year, my entire life and the perception of myself changed. I was living compromised and thought it was the way my life would stay.
It was human nature for me to look around and bond with people in similar situations. Now before this happened I might have looked at these people and thought or judged that I knew how they were feeling, knew what was going with them, when in fact I was clueless.
I don't believe judging has to be human nature, we can consciously change that, but understanding should be. "Walk a mile in my shoes"
I'm not going to be very popular with this thought but it is how I feel.
Life isn't how long we live, its not a marathon, its the quality in which we live and our individual purpose or lessons that our soul must learn and leave with. And we can not second guess what that is for anyone. "Live and let live" and love.
Therefore the obese person who is perhaps living a life that is shortened , you believe you should help, I think by tough love, lose the weight. I say if that is what is within them they will, that they should be loved and respected as is, and allowed to fulfill their potential as they want to without judgement. The same can be said for smokers. We have an imperfect path we walk to learn, all of us.
I also really need to say I dislike debate. Its not in my nature, I know some here start threads just to do so, thats cool for them. I feel it is a civil way to argue and makes me uncomfortable and I am really not good at it.Therefore "tag I'm out" but I have a feeling you will probably want the last word, thats also cool.
Your post(s) inspired me to add another quote - one of my absolute favorites - to my signature.
For me, I've cut out sugars, unless they are natural. I don't eat food unless its something my body could really use. No cake, no candy, no cookies, no ice cream..
My family thinks its weird I don't endulge in their desserts after dinner, but honestly, if I'm going to be unhealthy I'd rather have a beer, which is still MUCH healthier than sweets. Why put that crap in your body for a 30 second sugar high?
cos it tastes goooooooooooood
lol, people are sooooo brainwashed. My mom has a friend who is desperate to lose weight, but its embeded in her mind that you are supposed to have dessert with every meal.. EVERY meal! I think most people don't even realize it. It's normal to them.
I hate when I go to a restaurant, have a huge ass meal, and they expect you to order dessert... No lady, I just had a half pound cheeseburger, fries and three beers. How the fuck am I going to fit a cake in me? Are you trying to kill me?.. Yet to many people, this meal process is normal and sorry to tell them, but they're not going to loose weight making that drink a diet drink.
yeah... my mom has a friend who is MORE than obese... nicest and funniest lady you'll meet, which makes it seem even more unfortunate that she is so unhealthy.
apparently growing up they had dessert with EVERY meal, including lunch....
i mean, i like a dessert now and then but, every meal?
usually when i go to a restaurant i think mmmm i want dessert after this - but once i'm done theres no way in hell i ever have room!!!!!!
You keep responding with comments about liking people and being close to people and judging whether or not you find their qualities appealing, all of which are completely irrelevant to what I'm talking about.
As I understand it your point is that we should ALWAYS keep an open mind and should never judge, right? My point is that the way we know and relate to anything in the world is based on reference to prior experience. You might know that it's good not to judge a book by its cover because at some point in the past you did that, and your judgement turned out to be wrong.
It's so fucking condescending of people to presume that overweight people are ignorant and need their help. One might even say it's unrealistic, self-righteous, and arrogant.
Hmm is it really though? Let's stop looking at it from a personal level and look at the global problem of obesity. Are we really to believe that ALL of these millions of people suffer from emotional issues that drive them to food? Are they all enlightened about food and nutrition? Are some of them just plain lazy when it comes to preparing healthy food, as I see from my parents and countless friends?
Regarding being unhealthy, as someone else has already pointed out, there is no criticism of the people who are unhealthily underweight or those who aren't overweight but who have the exact same bad, unhealthy habits you say are the real criticism of the overweight people. I know this is true because I've spent most of my life underweight but with horrible eating and exercise habits, and all the while I've received nothing but affirmation from society.
Sure there is criticism of people who are under weight, take a look at any tabloid paper or magazine and you will find heaps of articles trashing celebrities for being under weight. Nicole Ritchie, Victoria Beckham, Courtney Love, Micha Barton, those are just a few I can think of off the top of my head who have been in the firing line.
If I was thin and I met you in a bar and went on and on about how much I love chocolate and hate exercise, I doubt you'd have the same reaction as you had to this woman.
Oh you doubt that do you? Well actually you're wrong. The thing that most incensed me about that particular evening was the fact that I was having a perfectly good evening with my friends and a relative stranger came and sat down and proceeded to hi-jack the conversation and talked about herself non-stop to the absolute befuddlement of everyone else sitting at the table. The fact that she was speaking such utter rubbish about a subject she didn't understand just made it worse. If she was thin and had come over and done that I would still have found her annoying and ignorant.
As I understand it your point is that we should ALWAYS keep an open mind and should never judge, right? My point is that the way we know and relate to anything in the world is based on reference to prior experience. You might know that it's good not to judge a book by its cover because at some point in the past you did that, and your judgement turned out to be wrong.
No, that wasn't my point. I agree that we relate to the world through the lens of our previous experiences. I even agree that some sort of judgement, on some level, comes naturally. My point is that, despite our previous experiences and tendencies to judge others, we should make every conscious attempt to understand, love, and respect each person for who s/he is, rather than imposing our own experience & judgement onto our understanding of, feelings about, and treatment of them. I don't believe it's even possible to do this without first recognizing our own judgement & perspective. Further, my point was that we should love every single person, whether or not we like them or respect them or find their qualities appealing or are close to them, and that the ability to love others who are different than us is much more valuable than just the ability to love those people we like and are close to.
Hmm is it really though? Let's stop looking at it from a personal level and look at the global problem of obesity. Are we really to believe that ALL of these millions of people suffer from emotional issues that drive them to food? Are they all enlightened about food and nutrition? Are some of them just plain lazy when it comes to preparing healthy food, as I see from my parents and countless friends?
Yes, it really is. If you'll recall, I started out in this thread by arguing that obesity is a public health problem, so I am looking at it from that perspective. And, no, I don't believe that ALL people who are overweight suffer from emotional issues (and I never said they do), nor do I believe they all need enlightenment about nutrition, nor do I believe that none of them are just plain lazy. What I believe - and I think I already mentioned this - is that obesity is a complex issue on a personal level as well as on a population level, and trying to simplify or stereotype anyone's problem fails to give credit to the complexity of the issue and the people who deal with it and does more harm than good. Of course I believe better education should be available to help those who need it, just as much as I believe in other public health interventions for this problem. But making education available and accessible to those who could use it is completely different than giving someone "a bit of a kick up the arse," as you said.
Sure there is criticism of people who are under weight, take a look at any tabloid paper or magazine and you will find heaps of articles trashing celebrities for being under weight. Nicole Ritchie, Victoria Beckham, Courtney Love, Micha Barton, those are just a few I can think of off the top of my head who have been in the firing line.
Those magazines are not only designed to find anything they can possibly find to write about to slam celebrities, but they also only slam them when they are deathly thin. For every one of these articles, there are hundreds of articles and ads promoting a body type that is underweight. And I really don't think you could seriously deny that society generally affirms underweight women and condemns overweight ones. Plus, you didn't address my point about unhealthy habits.
Oh you doubt that do you? Well actually you're wrong. The thing that most incensed me about that particular evening was the fact that I was having a perfectly good evening with my friends and a relative stranger came and sat down and proceeded to hi-jack the conversation and talked about herself non-stop to the absolute befuddlement of everyone else sitting at the table. The fact that she was speaking such utter rubbish about a subject she didn't understand just made it worse. If she was thin and had come over and done that I would still have found her annoying and ignorant.
But, see, this just underscores my point. You are saying you didn't like this woman because of her personality, and yet you have spent a whole thread faulting her for being fat. What does being fat have to do with her personality?? Nothing - but it's something for you to pick on. And, while I do believe that if I had obnooxiously hijacked your conversation you would have had a problem with it, regardless of my appearance or topic of conversation, I don't believe that if I were thin and nice you would have faulted me for my poor eating habits, which is what you have been claiming to fault her for.
But, see, this just underscores my point. You are saying you didn't like this woman because of her personality, and yet you have spent a whole thread faulting her for being fat. What does being fat have to do with her personality?? Nothing - but it's something for you to pick on. And, while I do believe that if I had obnooxiously hijacked your conversation you would have had a problem with it, regardless of my appearance or topic of conversation, I don't believe that if I were thin and nice you would have faulted me for my poor eating habits, which is what you have been claiming to fault her for.
I'm not going to quote everything because most of this is just going around in circles, and it will take up pages. What I was faulting her for was the fact that she completely rubbished the notion that a diet can and does work, and that she took over the evening in the process. And you're absolutely wrong, if we were chatting about health and nutrition, you can bet I would have let you know my views on it, as it's something I'm really interested in. How you can be so sure when a) you weren't there, and b) you don't know me at all, I seriously don't understand. To me it seems like you are making judgements on my personality to fit the argument you are trying to make.
And I still disagree with the idea that we should "love every single person" - love, just like hate, is a strong word and not one I would just throw around. Respect is a far more appropriate word to me, to use love in its place just cheapens its meaning. Would you 'love' the paedophile that moved in nextdoor to you?
Its funny about judging people because a huge percentage of the time we are wrong. We judge people, we don't try to understand, we are wrong in the judgement. We never knew what we missed.
There really isn't much chance of being right cause their are so many factors that make up who we are, why, where we are going."Don't judge a book by its cover"
I don't think bonding with people that are like you, your friends or whomever is the same as judging.
When I was injured last year, my entire life and the perception of myself changed. I was living compromised and thought it was the way my life would stay.
It was human nature for me to look around and bond with people in similar situations. Now before this happened I might have looked at these people and thought or judged that I knew how they were feeling, knew what was going with them, when in fact I was clueless.
I don't believe judging has to be human nature, we can consciously change that, but understanding should be. "Walk a mile in my shoes"
I'm not going to be very popular with this thought but it is how I feel.
Life isn't how long we live, its not a marathon, its the quality in which we live and our individual purpose or lessons that our soul must learn and leave with. And we can not second guess what that is for anyone. "Live and let live" and love.
Therefore the obese person who is perhaps living a life that is shortened , you believe you should help, I think by tough love, lose the weight. I say if that is what is within them they will, that they should be loved and respected as is, and allowed to fulfill their potential as they want to without judgement. The same can be said for smokers. We have an imperfect path we walk to learn, all of us.
I also really need to say I dislike debate. Its not in my nature, I know some here start threads just to do so, thats cool for them. I feel it is a civil way to argue and makes me uncomfortable and I am really not good at it.Therefore "tag I'm out" but I have a feeling you will probably want the last word, thats also cool.
Your post(s) inspired me to add another quote - one of my absolute favorites - to my signature.
And you always inspire me! I love the quote. Thank you! I hope the trip went well, that you are feeling well and fulfilled after, and I too embrace your sorrow. That is the blessing in death though it brings people together in love. I have a feeling you are a lady surrounded by love, this is my hope.
Your feelings expressed here in this thread are to be admired. Thank you for your input on a subject close to my heart, thats not one of obesity, this is but a format, but of accepting others for who they choose to be and respecting them in their journey in life.
SCB/Facepollution are there any peer-reviewed studies that actually reveal the long-term health benefits from "dieting"? From what I have read none of these studies work b/c the fail rate for a diet resulting in weight loss is about 90-95%...so they can't actually demonstrate any positive effects of dieting since few can keep it up that long. On top of that the 90-95% that fail and gain the weight back do more damage to themselves than just "staying fat" (or better yet, staying fat, and getting more active). So I think the women was speaking more than a shred truth that diets are stupid to try.
I'm not going to quote everything because most of this is just going around in circles, and it will take up pages. What I was faulting her for was the fact that she completely rubbished the notion that a diet can and does work, and that she took over the evening in the process. And you're absolutely wrong, if we were chatting about health and nutrition, you can bet I would have let you know my views on it, as it's something I'm really interested in. How you can be so sure when a) you weren't there, and b) you don't know me at all, I seriously don't understand. To me it seems like you are making judgements on my personality to fit the argument you are trying to make.
And I still disagree with the idea that we should "love every single person" - love, just like hate, is a strong word and not one I would just throw around. Respect is a far more appropriate word to me, to use love in its place just cheapens its meaning. Would you 'love' the paedophile that moved in nextdoor to you?
I didn't mean to suggest what your response would have been during the conversation. I mean to suggest that you wouldn't have come on here and talked shit about this woman's eating habits if that were really the only thing you had a problem with.
I don't just "throw around" the word love. For you to suggest that I am, or that "respect" is what I meant, or that I am cheapening the meaning again shows me that you don't understand what I mean. And, yes, I would love a pedophile.
Your post(s) inspired me to add another quote - one of my absolute favorites - to my signature.
And you always inspire me! I love the quote. Thank you! I hope the trip went well, that you are feeling well and fulfilled after, and I too embrace your sorrow. That is the blessing in death though it brings people together in love. I have a feeling you are a lady surrounded by love, this is my hope.
Your feelings expressed here in this thread are to be admired. Thank you for your input on a subject close to my heart, thats not one of obesity, this is but a format, but of accepting others for who they choose to be and respecting them in their journey in life.[/quote]
Thank you for your understanding and kind words. And this topic - the one you speak of - is close to my heart as well (obviously).
SCB/Facepollution are there any peer-reviewed studies that actually reveal the long-term health benefits from "dieting"? From what I have read none of these studies work b/c the fail rate for a diet resulting in weight loss is about 90-95%...so they can't actually demonstrate any positive effects of dieting since few can keep it up that long. On top of that the 90-95% that fail and gain the weight back do more damage to themselves than just "staying fat" (or better yet, staying fat, and getting more active). So I think the women was speaking more than a shred truth that diets are stupid to try.
If I'm understanding you, you're saying that since most of the time when people go on a diet it doesn't work, the woman was pretty accurate when she said diets don't work, right? I can agree with that. (Of course we both know that when a diet works, it works. )
Comments
i'm overweight but play a lot of sports so maybe i fall in that category :shock:
still need to shed the pounds because i dont really feel healthy anyways
Well that's different than what I thought you were saying and I can agree with this to a great extent. That said, I still don't think it sounded like she is one of those people, even given what she said about diets not working. And I still do think that education about health and nutrition is best done in a supportive way rather than in a kick in the ass kind of way.
I didn't say she DID; I only said IF she did. She might. And if not her, then surely someone else otherwise like her does. And I didn't say you don't have a tremendous capacity to love; I only repeated what you said about only loving those people you are close to, though I would suggest this limits your (or is a result of limited) capacity to love.
Nothing beats "The Big Fat Ugly". Just impossible.
"For $25 you can buy a sandwich called "Big Fat Ugly". It consists of two rolls, four cheeseburgers, a double cheesesteak, a chicken cheesesteak, gyro meat, grilled chicken, bacon, sausage, mozzarella sticks, chicken fingers, chicken nuggets, mac n cheese bites, fried mushrooms, jalapeño poppers, pizza bites, onion rings, hash browns, American cheese, mayo, and ketchup. Eat this six pound, football-sized monster in less than 15 minutes and your sandwich is free."
I think it's a huge part of the problem, not all of the millions of over-weight people in the world are suffering from emotional issues that lead them to comfort eat.
Well I wasn't always close to those people! What I was getting at is that I'm not going to make endless efforts to love people that I don't even like. I can certainly tollerate those people if I have to, and I'm always open to having my mind changed.
Regarding nutrition education, comfort eating, et cetera: I think it's way more complex than either of these things and the issue will not be solved by oversimplification.
Regarding love: I don't think you understand what I (and I would venture to say Pandora) was saying. But I guess that's less relevant to this thread.
I think we will see the mortality age get lower as these kids grow up.
Do they still have the President's Fitness Program like they did when I went to school?
Something has to be done to get kids active and eating better. In the summer, I use to see lots of kids on the street playing, now they are all inside all the time playing this or that, or watching T.V.
Get them out of the house into physical play and feed them better foods!!
I understand it perfectly, I just disagree, I think it's self-righteous and unrealistic.
Actually in my original post I am only pleading for the general population to try to be respectful if they indeed can not understand and be compassionate. If I am being unrealistic to believe by opening your heart any one of us can love a morbidly obese person then please leave me to my delusion because I don't want to be a part of world where this is not possible.
There those beautiful words again are spinning in my head "try a little tenderness" and "Lord knows I can't change"
because not everyone fits in a size 12 mold.
It's okay; I think it's obvious that he doesn't understand what I/we were saying. And size 12?! People get shit for even being that big! You have to be a size 5/7 these days to fit the "ideal" mold.
Obvious because if I did I would agree with you? Let's throw arrogant in there with self-righteous.
Actually size has very little to do with the point I'm making. What I'm trying to say is that I know I'm not going to like or love every person I meet, I'm ok with that. It's human nature to judge people, even if it's on a sub-conscious level. And it works both ways, what makes you closer to your friends than you are to an annoying work colleague? At some point you will have judged that their particular qualities appeal to you more in some way or another.
At no point did I say that a morbidly obese person wasn't worthy of love, but if you love a person that much you should also respect them by being honest and truthful with them. To be that over weight is unhealthy, no ifs, no buts, it just is - and if you want to see that person live without a whole host of ailments and to see them live longer then would you not try what you could to help them?
There really isn't much chance of being right cause their are so many factors that make up who we are, why, where we are going."Don't judge a book by its cover"
I don't think bonding with people that are like you, your friends or whomever is the same as judging.
When I was injured last year, my entire life and the perception of myself changed. I was living compromised and thought it was the way my life would stay.
It was human nature for me to look around and bond with people in similar situations. Now before this happened I might have looked at these people and thought or judged that I knew how they were feeling, knew what was going with them, when in fact I was clueless.
I don't believe judging has to be human nature, we can consciously change that, but understanding should be. "Walk a mile in my shoes"
I'm not going to be very popular with this thought but it is how I feel.
Life isn't how long we live, its not a marathon, its the quality in which we live and our individual purpose or lessons that our soul must learn and leave with. And we can not second guess what that is for anyone. "Live and let live" and love.
Therefore the obese person who is perhaps living a life that is shortened , you believe you should help, I think by tough love, lose the weight. I say if that is what is within them they will, that they should be loved and respected as is, and allowed to fulfill their potential as they want to without judgement. The same can be said for smokers. We have an imperfect path we walk to learn, all of us.
I also really need to say I dislike debate. Its not in my nature, I know some here start threads just to do so, thats cool for them. I feel it is a civil way to argue and makes me uncomfortable and I am really not good at it.Therefore "tag I'm out"
The problem is that most judgement is sub-conscious, and it's the basis for which we understand everything. We assess things with reference to things we already know and make decisions based on that. I totally understand the notion that we should all be less quick to judge, and on a conscious level you are right, we should. But aiming towards being a kinder, more compassionate person, is not the same as not judging at all. For the record I think you've handled yourself perfectly well in this debate, even though we disagree one a few things. I'm not so much trying for the final word, I just want my opinion to be understood.
For me, I've cut out sugars, unless they are natural. I don't eat food unless its something my body could really use. No cake, no candy, no cookies, no ice cream..
My family thinks its weird I don't endulge in their desserts after dinner, but honestly, if I'm going to be unhealthy I'd rather have a beer, which is still MUCH healthier than sweets. Why put that crap in your body for a 30 second sugar high?
I hate when I go to a restaurant, have a huge ass meal, and they expect you to order dessert... No lady, I just had a half pound cheeseburger, fries and three beers. How the fuck am I going to fit a cake in me? Are you trying to kill me?.. Yet to many people, this meal process is normal and sorry to tell them, but they're not going to loose weight making that drink a diet drink.
No, obvious because your responses indicated that you thought I was saying something other than what I was actually saying.
See, this is an example of how you don't understand what I'm saying. (I won't speak for Pandora.) You keep responding with comments about liking people and being close to people and judging whether or not you find their qualities appealing, all of which are completely irrelevant to what I'm talking about.
Regarding being honest and truthfull, some things go without saying. Not every overweight person needs to hear about it from every person who loves them. What they need is to be loved for who they are, regardless of their weight, and not get shit about it all the time. It's so fucking condescending of people to presume that overweight people are ignorant and need their help. One might even say it's unrealistic, self-righteous, and arrogant.
Regarding being unhealthy, as someone else has already pointed out, there is no criticism of the people who are unhealthily underweight or those who aren't overweight but who have the exact same bad, unhealthy habits you say are the real criticism of the overweight people. I know this is true because I've spent most of my life underweight but with horrible eating and exercise habits, and all the while I've received nothing but affirmation from society. If I was thin and I met you in a bar and went on and on about how much I love chocolate and hate exercise, I doubt you'd have the same reaction as you had to this woman.
Since people don't seem to have control, we probably need to go back to hunting and gathering, survival of the fittest to fix this. Man has become to detached from nature, and it will all eventually collapse...
Yes, I just read Ishmael.
Your post(s) inspired me to add another quote - one of my absolute favorites - to my signature.
apparently growing up they had dessert with EVERY meal, including lunch....
i mean, i like a dessert now and then but, every meal?
usually when i go to a restaurant i think mmmm i want dessert after this - but once i'm done theres no way in hell i ever have room!!!!!!
As I understand it your point is that we should ALWAYS keep an open mind and should never judge, right? My point is that the way we know and relate to anything in the world is based on reference to prior experience. You might know that it's good not to judge a book by its cover because at some point in the past you did that, and your judgement turned out to be wrong.
Hmm is it really though? Let's stop looking at it from a personal level and look at the global problem of obesity. Are we really to believe that ALL of these millions of people suffer from emotional issues that drive them to food? Are they all enlightened about food and nutrition? Are some of them just plain lazy when it comes to preparing healthy food, as I see from my parents and countless friends?
Sure there is criticism of people who are under weight, take a look at any tabloid paper or magazine and you will find heaps of articles trashing celebrities for being under weight. Nicole Ritchie, Victoria Beckham, Courtney Love, Micha Barton, those are just a few I can think of off the top of my head who have been in the firing line.
Oh you doubt that do you? Well actually you're wrong. The thing that most incensed me about that particular evening was the fact that I was having a perfectly good evening with my friends and a relative stranger came and sat down and proceeded to hi-jack the conversation and talked about herself non-stop to the absolute befuddlement of everyone else sitting at the table. The fact that she was speaking such utter rubbish about a subject she didn't understand just made it worse. If she was thin and had come over and done that I would still have found her annoying and ignorant.
No, that wasn't my point. I agree that we relate to the world through the lens of our previous experiences. I even agree that some sort of judgement, on some level, comes naturally. My point is that, despite our previous experiences and tendencies to judge others, we should make every conscious attempt to understand, love, and respect each person for who s/he is, rather than imposing our own experience & judgement onto our understanding of, feelings about, and treatment of them. I don't believe it's even possible to do this without first recognizing our own judgement & perspective. Further, my point was that we should love every single person, whether or not we like them or respect them or find their qualities appealing or are close to them, and that the ability to love others who are different than us is much more valuable than just the ability to love those people we like and are close to.
Yes, it really is. If you'll recall, I started out in this thread by arguing that obesity is a public health problem, so I am looking at it from that perspective. And, no, I don't believe that ALL people who are overweight suffer from emotional issues (and I never said they do), nor do I believe they all need enlightenment about nutrition, nor do I believe that none of them are just plain lazy. What I believe - and I think I already mentioned this - is that obesity is a complex issue on a personal level as well as on a population level, and trying to simplify or stereotype anyone's problem fails to give credit to the complexity of the issue and the people who deal with it and does more harm than good. Of course I believe better education should be available to help those who need it, just as much as I believe in other public health interventions for this problem. But making education available and accessible to those who could use it is completely different than giving someone "a bit of a kick up the arse," as you said.
Those magazines are not only designed to find anything they can possibly find to write about to slam celebrities, but they also only slam them when they are deathly thin. For every one of these articles, there are hundreds of articles and ads promoting a body type that is underweight. And I really don't think you could seriously deny that society generally affirms underweight women and condemns overweight ones. Plus, you didn't address my point about unhealthy habits.
But, see, this just underscores my point. You are saying you didn't like this woman because of her personality, and yet you have spent a whole thread faulting her for being fat. What does being fat have to do with her personality?? Nothing - but it's something for you to pick on. And, while I do believe that if I had obnooxiously hijacked your conversation you would have had a problem with it, regardless of my appearance or topic of conversation, I don't believe that if I were thin and nice you would have faulted me for my poor eating habits, which is what you have been claiming to fault her for.
I'm not going to quote everything because most of this is just going around in circles, and it will take up pages. What I was faulting her for was the fact that she completely rubbished the notion that a diet can and does work, and that she took over the evening in the process. And you're absolutely wrong, if we were chatting about health and nutrition, you can bet I would have let you know my views on it, as it's something I'm really interested in. How you can be so sure when a) you weren't there, and b) you don't know me at all, I seriously don't understand. To me it seems like you are making judgements on my personality to fit the argument you are trying to make.
And I still disagree with the idea that we should "love every single person" - love, just like hate, is a strong word and not one I would just throw around. Respect is a far more appropriate word to me, to use love in its place just cheapens its meaning. Would you 'love' the paedophile that moved in nextdoor to you?
Your feelings expressed here in this thread are to be admired. Thank you for your input on a subject close to my heart, thats not one of obesity, this is but a format, but of accepting others for who they choose to be and respecting them in their journey in life.
I didn't mean to suggest what your response would have been during the conversation. I mean to suggest that you wouldn't have come on here and talked shit about this woman's eating habits if that were really the only thing you had a problem with.
I don't just "throw around" the word love. For you to suggest that I am, or that "respect" is what I meant, or that I am cheapening the meaning again shows me that you don't understand what I mean. And, yes, I would love a pedophile.
Your feelings expressed here in this thread are to be admired. Thank you for your input on a subject close to my heart, thats not one of obesity, this is but a format, but of accepting others for who they choose to be and respecting them in their journey in life.[/quote]
Thank you for your understanding and kind words. And this topic - the one you speak of - is close to my heart as well (obviously).
If I'm understanding you, you're saying that since most of the time when people go on a diet it doesn't work, the woman was pretty accurate when she said diets don't work, right? I can agree with that. (Of course we both know that when a diet works, it works.