has anyone seen "cloudy with a chance of meatballs"? ... i thought the subtext to the movie was about food and his machine was a metaphor for our industrialized food system ...
That and other articles in JAMA are what these books are arguing against. Basically Campos and Oliver go back through all those studies that are most popularly cited and found that even the most damning studies have found that there's, at most a 9 percent correlation, between obesity and death and no causal link. So it's not the "fat" per se that is killing us, but rather the things you pointed to poor nutrition, physical inactivity and so on that is whether you are thin or fat. By causally linking fat to death through studies like those you mention it's like saying that because of your phenotype you are going to die. Put differently it would be like saying that a black person is going to die early because they are black, not because of the discrimination, stress, class background, and culture that has lowered the life expectancy for minorities in America. What they, and I argue this does is make it easy to blame the individual for their personal failings (like know1 is doing) and not getting to the systemic issues that are killing all of us earlier than we should be.
That and other articles in JAMA are what these books are arguing against. Basically Campos and Oliver go back through all those studies that are most popularly cited and found that even the most damning studies have found that there's, at most a 9 percent correlation, between obesity and death and no causal link. So it's not the "fat" per se that is killing us, but rather the things you pointed to poor nutrition, physical inactivity and so on that is whether you are thin or fat. By causally linking fat to death through studies like those you mention it's like saying that because of your phenotype you are going to die. Put differently it would be like saying that a black person is going to die early because they are black, not because of the discrimination, stress, class background, and culture that has lowered the life expectancy for minorities in America. What they, and I argue this does is make it easy to blame the individual for their personal failings (like know1 is doing) and not getting to the systemic issues that are killing all of us earlier than we should be.
I agree with the spirit of your argument. However...
1. I was refuting your statement that "no peer reviewed study has found anything more than a 9 percent corrolation between obesity and mortality." Obviously that’s not true, since we’re talking about one of the studies right now and neither of us refute its existence or what it says. (I mean we agree about what it says, not that there is no disagreement with what it says.) If you want to question its validity, that’s different than saying it doesn’t exist.
2. It’s not like saying that because of your phenotype you are going to die. I feel like you’re viewing the data from the wrong direction. The study asks why people die (A) and conclude that many people’s deaths can be attributed to having a poor diet and lack of physical activity (and its consequent obesity) (B). It’s “A was caused by B,” not “If B, then A.” It's like if I jumped off a cliff, broke my neck, and died, and someone asked what caused my death. The answer would be “She jumped off a cliff.” But no one is saying that if I jump off a cliff I will necessarily die.
3. I don’t agree that these studies necessarily create a blame-the-victim mentality. Quite the contrary… they are used to get to the root systemic social determinants of mortality. I feel ike you are suggesting we skip the important link(s) between determinants of health and health outcomes, but if we skip that link we'll never get back far enough to address systemic issues. To use your example about being black, if you want to say black people have lower life expectancies and that’s because of discrimination, you have to first make the link between race and life expectancy before you can ask why black people have lower life expectancies. (As for know1, he makes the same argument about everyone in every thread. These studies had nothing to do with it.)
haha fair enough...i get your argument now, and as usual i think we both generally agree on things. don't you do work on health and obesity outside of this website? i'm actually giving a keynote on it at the University of Maryland in 1 1/2 weeks. i did an ethnography at a food company and i'm showing how even in a company that tries its best they can't because capitalism prevents it.
Most definitely! Fast food is taking over and our younger generations are growing up on a steady diet of fast food and very little physical exercise :(
One of the problems is definitely that fast food is sold so cheaply :?
Stand for something or you'll fall for anything (Skindred-Stand For Something)
haha fair enough...i get your argument now, and as usual i think we both generally agree on things. don't you do work on health and obesity outside of this website? i'm actually giving a keynote on it at the University of Maryland in 1 1/2 weeks. i did an ethnography at a food company and i'm showing how even in a company that tries its best they can't because capitalism prevents it.
I work in and am a student of public health, a large (no pun intended) part of which is obesity, though my specialty is reproductive health. Your speech sounds interesting. Maybe you should post the results of your ethnography here for us.
haha fair enough...i get your argument now, and as usual i think we both generally agree on things. don't you do work on health and obesity outside of this website? i'm actually giving a keynote on it at the University of Maryland in 1 1/2 weeks. i did an ethnography at a food company and i'm showing how even in a company that tries its best they can't because capitalism prevents it.
I work in and am a student of public health, a large (no pun intended) part of which is obesity, though my specialty is reproductive health. Your speech sounds interesting. Maybe you should post the results of your ethnography here for us.
P.S. What was your name on the old board?
ryan198 on the oldie...School of Pub Health where? It sounds like you know what you're doing...I'm giving the presentation at the Ribbon Cutting ceremony at the School of Public Health at UMD. Should be interesting b/c they have this competition where you slap a This is PH sticker on something and take a pic to publicize the ceremony. Thing is they have a bunch of raging cultural studies kids in the school who are gonna go around putting a ? mark at the end and slapping the stickers on our Pepsi machines, and snack machines, b/c the school sold out to pouring rights and the crappy bike racks that are easy to steal from b/c the school is too cheap to repair them.
I'm not saying that organic whole foods aren't good for you, but eating those foods won't stop you getting fat if you over eat, regardless of how fresh or organic they are. Children can often get away with 'over-eating' because they are growing. It's the same for a body builder, if they want to grow bigger they must eat more calories than they burn off.
Bread, pasta and sugar in abundance will make you fat. The body doesn't like to have sugar (including starches like flour, rice etc) floating around, so it sends out insulin which is for all intents and purposes a fat storing hormone. As soon as your body starts processing carbs the body will cease buring body fat as fuel and starts storing the excess carbs as fat in the fat cells. Is it any wonder then given how we're told to eat a low fat high carb diet, that people find it difficult to lose weight? If you're consistently eating carbs throughout the day, it's quite possible that your insulin levels would NEVER be low enough to allow you to burn body fat as fuel - even if you are on a calorie deficit. And in the event that you do lose weight, you would most likely be breaking down muscle to use as fuel, since your body physically can not access its fat stores.
I can see your point if you wanted to make a post about carbs. But why is this a reply to my short anecdote about Italian kids? You begin by quoting me, then continue to use the second person throughout both paragraphs: "You, you, (points finger) you."
There are so many factors contributing to people being overweight. For each individual there are multiple factors not one.
Most important, or what I should say that bothers me the most, is the abuse/ discrimination that occurs for the overweight population. Those that have been so since childhood experience the teasing and bullying which carries over to a less than polite discrimination as an adult.
If the general population can not be compassionate and understanding then they should at least be respectful because all human beings deserve respect. Once you love a fat person and are no longer ignorant as to what is exactly going on with them you have learned all three- respect, compassion, and understanding and most likely admiration too.
If you are a thin person wondering "why does this person not get thin like me" or "why can't they show some determination, some discipline" open your heart and think about what it is like for this fat person. Don't assume, don't judge, don't pity. Know that the causes run deep, that often food is used to shield oneself from the outside world. It can be used to replace a loving bond as a child. It can become an unhealthy habit that is as addictive as any other consumable.
As we are taught not to see color can we also now embrace the other differences keeping us from loving one another? Can it be time to not see sexual persuasion, not see body shape and size, not see political differences?
And please can it be time to say we will not let the almighty dollar be a deciding factor in discrimination?
I hear what you are saying, but there are cases where some big people are equally ignorant, and I have limited compassion in those situations. I was down the pub a little while ago and the sister of my mate's girlfriend came and sat with us. She's probably a good 6 stone (84lbs) over weight and she apparently couldn't care less. Doesn't care about her health, "diet's don't work" etc. We listened to her ramble on about how she didn't care if she was fat, for about an hour, and it became quite obvious that she in fact did care and this was all just an OTT defense mechanism. Part of me did feel sorry for her, but the other part of me thinks that wallowing in your own misery for a life time never got anyone anywhere. There is so much decent, useful, not to mention free information out there to help people lose weight, so when people come out with rubbish like "diet's don't work" my sympathy kind of runs out.
I hear what you are saying, but there are cases where some big people are equally ignorant, and I have limited compassion in those situations. I was down the pub a little while ago and the sister of my mate's girlfriend came and sat with us. She's probably a good 6 stone (84lbs) over weight and she apparently couldn't care less. Doesn't care about her health, "diet's don't work" etc. We listened to her ramble on about how she didn't care if she was fat, for about an hour, and it became quite obvious that she in fact did care and this was all just an OTT defense mechanism. Part of me did feel sorry for her, but the other part of me thinks that wallowing in your own misery for a life time never got anyone anywhere. There is so much decent, useful, not to mention free information out there to help people lose weight, so when people come out with rubbish like "diet's don't work" my sympathy kind of runs out.
Actually I don't really think you hear what I am saying. If you are unable to be compassionate and understanding of an overweight person be respectful of them. Be kind, not sympathetic, pity is demeaning. Just open your heart and accept the person as though they were a loved one. Perhaps you would not meet as many defensive people if that were the case.
If you are saying this young woman is ignorant or lacks compassion for her own situation because she has not changed it that is truly none of your business. She is and will find her way, in her life, in her time and should not be judged for being who she is or made to feel less because her weight is more.
If you are saying she is ignorant or lacks compassion for you because she is defensive then again respect and kindness, just being treated like everyone else as she deserves, will very much help her to relax, let her guard down and you may be lucky enough to know this girl. You may learn to love this girl which would be the very best thing for you.
Actually I don't really think you hear what I am saying. If you are unable to be compassionate and understanding of an overweight person be respectful of them. Be kind, not sympathetic, pity is demeaning. Just open your heart and accept the person as though they were a loved one. Perhaps you would not meet as many defensive people if that were the case.
Perhaps we are talking about different things. I was of course polite and respectful to her, even though I disagreed with what she was saying. I am in fact a very compassionate person, what she was saying truly saddened me - I don't like to think of people who genuinely have no hope of improving their lives. The truth is though that there comes a point when we all need a bit of a kick up the arse. Of course there are ways of saying things, but to me being truthful is the most respect you can give. I particularly think it's important with obesity since it can have such a profound effect on your health.
If you are saying this young woman is ignorant or lacks compassion for her own situation because she has not changed it that is truly none of your business. She is and will find her way, in her life, in her time and should not be judged for being who she is or made to feel less because her weight is more.
If you are saying she is ignorant or lacks compassion for you because she is defensive then again respect and kindness, just being treated like everyone else as she deserves, will very much help her to relax, let her guard down and you may be lucky enough to know this girl. You may learn to love this girl which would be the very best thing for you.
In terms of this particular situation I think she was ignorant in that she completely hi-jacked the conversation for an hour and essentially trashed any medical arguments against being severely over weight. Why would me loving her be the best thing for me?! She's loud and brash and doesn't respect other people's opinions. None of that makes me hate her or anything, but if I followed your line of thinking I should like everyone I meet, because there is always some reason behind a person's negative personality traits. And you say that she will find her way in her life, but many people spend their whole lives obese and die that way, which is sad, no matter how you try to sugar coat it.
I think I would have liked to be a fly on the wall for that hour you spent with this young woman. In ways your words give away what one might feel if they were present. Of course for you to love anyone would do you good, unless you feel them not good enough for your love. And yes, for me, loving and understanding others is the goal of life. Not to judge or expect or feel sorry for but to truly stand in another's shoes and feel what they feel and love them for who they are.
I think I would have liked to be a fly on the wall for that hour you spent with this young woman. In ways your words give away what one might feel if they were present. Of course for you to love anyone would do you good, unless you feel them not good enough for your love.
I fear it would have been pretty disappointing, I only spoke a couple of times, I'm not sure she even heard me, there were quite a few people, all just listening to her. In fact nobody really got a word in edge ways. It wasn't a debate or anything, she basically sat there drunk, ranting about how she doesn't wanna be a skinny bitch because she loves chocolate, she likes having big tits and diets don't work anyway (all her words).
So are there people who aren't good enough for my love? I mean I can understand that a traumatic childhood can lead to people commiting hideous acts as adults, and whilst I have compassion for that inner child who didn't choose to have a shitty upbringing, loving them wouldn't fulfill any personal needs I might have - those would be fulfilled by the people I choose to be close to.
And yes, for me, loving and understanding others is the goal of life. Not to judge or expect or feel sorry for but to truly stand in another's shoes and feel what they feel and love them for who they are.
So if you had a friend who had a really destructive aspect to their life, you wouldn't want to actually help them? Empathy is all very well, but that alone isn't going to help them change their situation. Arguably the biggest problem these people have is that they don't have any real perspective on their problems. People go into denial, they try to escape their problems. To me a good friend is someone who isn't afraid to call you on something, who will be truthful, yet understanding. Part of that however, means that you have to pass judgement, you might have to tell that person that if they continue on the same path that they could die. I think it would be pretty selfish to just stand by and say nothing all becuase I didn't want to look like the bad guy.
I think the problem with obesity is that it's not always seen as an immediate risk and therefore it's not taken so seriously. It's strange how we take the oppoiste, i.e. someone purposfully starving themselves to death that bit more seriously.
has anyone seen "cloudy with a chance of meatballs"? ... i thought the subtext to the movie was about food and his machine was a metaphor for our industrialized food system ...
and wall.e was a good one too... about obesity and laziness anyways
I'm ballooning and it is disgusting.
I've been too busy lately to play the sports I've always done since a small child, and too poor to buy proper ingredients (and too busy to cook myself proper meals!!)
I can acknowledge the problem...
i heard that Canadians are climbing up the stats on the obesity front...
That said... I still don't know what I'm in for when i order a medium drink in a US restaurant :shock:
please facepollution do me one favor- reread my original post- then perhaps yours then my next etc.
I went back through and did so and I noticed your original post and so on used words to describe your encounter such as she rambled, didn't care, she wallowed in misery, you felt sorry for her, your sympathy ran out, a good kick in the arse, she was brash & loud, she spoke against medical arguments, empathy is fine BUT, there may be more
my point, sometimes we think we are compassionate, sometimes we are, sometimes compassion is tested, sometimes we are not able to be compassionate because we just don't feel the other person. Your opinion of this woman as many do for her everyday was formed the moment you met her. This is discrimination.
My original post only asks for no judging. That people deserve respect and I feel for this young woman who felt the need to defend who she was with a table full of other young people. I feel the situation speaks for itself.
please facepollution do me one favor- reread my original post- then perhaps yours then my next etc.
I went back through and did so and I noticed your original post and so on used words to describe your encounter such as she rambled, didn't care, she wallowed in misery, you felt sorry for her, your sympathy ran out, a good kick in the arse, she was brash & loud, she spoke against medical arguments, empathy is fine BUT, there may be more
my point, sometimes we think we are compassionate, sometimes we are, sometimes compassion is tested, sometimes we are not able to be compassionate because we just don't feel the other person. Your opinion of this woman as many do for her everyday was formed the moment you met her. This is discrimination.
My original post only asks for no judging. That people deserve respect and I feel for this young woman who felt the need to defend who she was with a table full of other young people. I feel the situation speaks for itself.
Ok first of all you've completely ignored a load of the valid points I made in my last post. Secondly, I find it quite ironic that you claim you don't judge people and just want to know what it's really like to be in another person's shoes, yet you are quite happy to sit here and judge me, maybe I'm just not articulating what I feel properly, who knows, but according to you I MUST be descriminating.
I don't need your approval to tell me whether I'm compassionate or not. Just to clarify, I had met her before, when she wasn't drunk. I had no strong feelings at all, sure she was loud and obnoxious, but then so are many slim people, and so are some of my good friends for that matter. If she felt the need to sit and defend herself amongst a group of very passive and friendly people, who had not even broached the subject of weight/food/exercise then I fear that is unfortunately not something I have any control over.
Like I said, if you care about someone enough, you should be willing to forefit your own comfort in not rocking the boat, and actually try to help people, which requires some form of judgement. I couldn't honestly say I would be happy standing around while somebody I care about destroys their body, be it through eating too much, not eating enough, drugs, drink etc.
There is so much decent, useful, not to mention free information out there to help people lose weight, so when people come out with rubbish like "diet's don't work" my sympathy kind of runs out.
The truth is though that there comes a point when we all need a bit of a kick up the arse. Of course there are ways of saying things, but to me being truthful is the most respect you can give. I particularly think it's important with obesity since it can have such a profound effect on your health.
And you say that she will find her way in her life, but many people spend their whole lives obese and die that way, which is sad, no matter how you try to sugar coat it.
So if you had a friend who had a really destructive aspect to their life, you wouldn't want to actually help them? Empathy is all very well, but that alone isn't going to help them change their situation. Arguably the biggest problem these people have is that they don't have any real perspective on their problems.
I don’t think you’re giving this woman enough credit. Do you really think she doesn’t know that she is overweight and that this can have a profound effect on her health? She’s probably experiencing some of those effects already.
Do you really think what she needs to cure her of her “ignorance” is a bit of a kick up the arse from you or anyone else? Like if you tell her she’s fat she’ll suddenly go, “Oh, hey! I didn’t know that! Now I’m going to go change my life! Thank you so much for helping me!”? This could only be productive if she really had no idea that she was overweight, that being overweight is a health concern, and that there are things she can do about it. But of course she already knows these things. I think being understanding – not pointing out something she already knows – is the best respect and help one can give. And when you say “these people” don’t have any real perspective on their problems, I would suggest that that’s not at all understanding and is in fact disrespectful and that it’s you who doesn’t have any real perspective on their problems.
Of course she has perspective on her problems. She lives with them every moment of every day, in a way that she knows you don’t understand. When you talk about her saying diets don’t work and she loves chocolate and having big tits, what I hear from her is “I know you people are already judging me, from the moment you saw me, based solely on my appearance. I don’t feel understood and safe with you, so I’m just going to pretend I don’t care instead of letting you know how I really feel.” (This reminds me of a patient I once knew who told us she wanted an abortion because she didn’t want to ruin her new boob job but, when we persisted with expressing love and understanding, finally opened up with all sorts of profound insights about the situation, which really had nothing to do with her boob job.)
You say that many people spend their whole lives obese and die that way and that this is sad, but you might consider that being overweight is only one small part of who she is and her way (or lack thereof) in life. She could be thinking that you have lost your way in life. (Who among us hasn’t, really?) If she lives and dies as an obese woman with a tremendous capacity to love, and you live and die as a physically fit person who never learns the value of loving people other than those whom you have chosen to be close to, who has really lost their way and whose life is ultimately sad?
please facepollution do me one favor- reread my original post- then perhaps yours then my next etc.
I went back through and did so and I noticed your original post and so on used words to describe your encounter such as she rambled, didn't care, she wallowed in misery, you felt sorry for her, your sympathy ran out, a good kick in the arse, she was brash & loud, she spoke against medical arguments, empathy is fine BUT, there may be more
my point, sometimes we think we are compassionate, sometimes we are, sometimes compassion is tested, sometimes we are not able to be compassionate because we just don't feel the other person. Your opinion of this woman as many do for her everyday was formed the moment you met her. This is discrimination.
My original post only asks for no judging. That people deserve respect and I feel for this young woman who felt the need to defend who she was with a table full of other young people. I feel the situation speaks for itself.
Ok first of all you've completely ignored a load of the valid points I made in my last post. Secondly, I find it quite ironic that you claim you don't judge people and just want to know what it's really like to be in another person's shoes, yet you are quite happy to sit here and judge me, maybe I'm just not articulating what I feel properly, who knows, but according to you I MUST be descriminating.
I don't need your approval to tell me whether I'm compassionate or not. Just to clarify, I had met her before, when she wasn't drunk. I had no strong feelings at all, sure she was loud and obnoxious, but then so are many slim people, and so are some of my good friends for that matter. If she felt the need to sit and defend herself amongst a group of very passive and friendly people, who had not even broached the subject of weight/food/exercise then I fear that is unfortunately not something I have any control over.
Like I said, if you care about someone enough, you should be willing to forefit your own comfort in not rocking the boat, and actually try to help people, which requires some form of judgement. I couldn't honestly say I would be happy standing around while somebody I care about destroys their body, be it through eating too much, not eating enough, drugs, drink etc.
I have not been judging you and your valid points are for an argument that to me doesn't exist. There is no argument against showing another human being respect. There is no "but" for empathy. I have been trying not to be to blunt but I really do feel you quickly read through my original post all the time thinking about the fat girl you met who you did not like and I'm being mild with that because your words kind of show your disgust. And relating in this way to my original post you do not or can not acknowledge that in fact people including yourself discriminate against fat people and prejudge who they are by how they look.
My only point in all of this is do not attempt to change people, do not pity them, do not prejudge based on looks just open your heart. The words "try a little tenderness" keep coming into my head http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dael4sb42nI
There is so much decent, useful, not to mention free information out there to help people lose weight, so when people come out with rubbish like "diet's don't work" my sympathy kind of runs out.
The truth is though that there comes a point when we all need a bit of a kick up the arse. Of course there are ways of saying things, but to me being truthful is the most respect you can give. I particularly think it's important with obesity since it can have such a profound effect on your health.
And you say that she will find her way in her life, but many people spend their whole lives obese and die that way, which is sad, no matter how you try to sugar coat it.
So if you had a friend who had a really destructive aspect to their life, you wouldn't want to actually help them? Empathy is all very well, but that alone isn't going to help them change their situation. Arguably the biggest problem these people have is that they don't have any real perspective on their problems.
I don’t think you’re giving this woman enough credit. Do you really think she doesn’t know that she is overweight and that this can have a profound effect on her health? She’s probably experiencing some of those effects already.
Do you really think what she needs to cure her of her “ignorance” is a bit of a kick up the arse from you or anyone else? Like if you tell her she’s fat she’ll suddenly go, “Oh, hey! I didn’t know that! Now I’m going to go change my life! Thank you so much for helping me!”? This could only be productive if she really had no idea that she was overweight, that being overweight is a health concern, and that there are things she can do about it. But of course she already knows these things. I think being understanding – not pointing out something she already knows – is the best respect and help one can give. And when you say “these people” don’t have any real perspective on their problems, I would suggest that that’s not at all understanding and is in fact disrespectful and that it’s you who doesn’t have any real perspective on their problems.
Of course she has perspective on her problems. She lives with them every moment of every day, in a way that she knows you don’t understand. When you talk about her saying diets don’t work and she loves chocolate and having big tits, what I hear from her is “I know you people are already judging me, from the moment you saw me, based solely on my appearance. I don’t feel understood and safe with you, so I’m just going to pretend I don’t care instead of letting you know how I really feel.” (This reminds me of a patient I once knew who told us she wanted an abortion because she didn’t want to ruin her new boob job but, when we persisted with expressing love and understanding, finally opened up with all sorts of profound insights about the situation, which really had nothing to do with her boob job.)
You say that many people spend their whole lives obese and die that way and that this is sad, but you might consider that being overweight is only one small part of who she is and her way (or lack thereof) in life. She could be thinking that you have lost your way in life. (Who among us hasn’t, really?) If she lives and dies as an obese woman with a tremendous capacity to love, and you live and die as a physically fit person who never learns the value of loving people other than those whom you have chosen to be close to, who has really lost their way and whose life is ultimately sad?
Just something to think about.
your $.02 worth is as precious as gold. Wonderful sentiment, caring thoughts and unlimited insight. Thank you for sharing.
Hey, I've lost 25lbs since Christmas and I can now see my cock.
Obesity is a bigger problem in the UK than alcoholism and smoking but where are the health warnings on McDs dog burgers? I agree with the comments about the Italians and you don't see too many fat Frenchies. The US is the place for the really large though, I couldn't believe the size of some on my last visit. It's hardly surprising with $10 all you can eat!
Do you really think what she needs to cure her of her “ignorance” is a bit of a kick up the arse from you or anyone else? Like if you tell her she’s fat she’ll suddenly go, “Oh, hey! I didn’t know that! Now I’m going to go change my life! Thank you so much for helping me!”? This could only be productive if she really had no idea that she was overweight, that being overweight is a health concern, and that there are things she can do about it. But of course she already knows these things. I think being understanding – not pointing out something she already knows – is the best respect and help one can give. And when you say “these people” don’t have any real perspective on their problems, I would suggest that that’s not at all understanding and is in fact disrespectful and that it’s you who doesn’t have any real perspective on their problems.
Argh where to start?
Some people genuinely don't have a clue about nutrition and what it takes to maintain a healthy body. My point about ignorance, was the fact that she had tried all these diets and they hadn't worked. I see plenty of people at work who claim to be on diets, and they are eating exactly the opposite foods that they should be if they want to lose weight. Now as a caring person should I tell them where they are going wrong, or should I not judge and just let them keep failing?
I know only too well how easy it is to lose perspective on your problems - we all have them. A classic symptom of an addiction is denial, how are you ever going to gain perspective without an outsider helping you in some way to see that things don't have to be that way?
If she lives and dies as an obese woman with a tremendous capacity to love, and you live and die as a physically fit person who never learns the value of loving people other than those whom you have chosen to be close to, who has really lost their way and whose life is ultimately sad?
How do you know she has a tremendous capacity to love? She might not. And what's to say I don't have a tremendous capacity to love? I might have. I'd say I have a pretty big cross-section of friends, of all shapes and sizes and personality types, I choose to be close to them because I like and accept them for who they are - that doesn't however stop me being concerned for them when they're doing things to fuck themselves up; but each situation is different, sometimes people need you to be honest with them, and ultimatley like I said before, I think being truthful is the most respect you can give a person.
I have not been judging you and your valid points are for an argument that to me doesn't exist. There is no argument against showing another human being respect. There is no "but" for empathy. I have been trying not to be to blunt but I really do feel you quickly read through my original post all the time thinking about the fat girl you met who you did not like and I'm being mild with that because your words kind of show your disgust. And relating in this way to my original post you do not or can not acknowledge that in fact people including yourself discriminate against fat people and prejudge who they are by how they look.
My only point in all of this is do not attempt to change people, do not pity them, do not prejudge based on looks just open your heart. The words "try a little tenderness" keep coming into my head http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dael4sb42nI
Absolute rubbish, you are judging me as someone who discriminates, when you have never even met me, all you have are my views on something which is obviously a very emotive subject for you, to which we disagree. This isn't a right and wrong situation, there are many gray areas, and I think it's ignorant to say otherwise, particularly as you weren't there to have experienced the situation.
I did not pre-judge her on her looks, I judged her on her actions. I'm not blind, so clearly I had acknowledged her size when I first met her, but then I see a lot of over-weight people, so that was nothing new to me. I judged her because she came and hi-jacked the conversation for an hour, and would have felt she was obnoxious and rambling if she was thin and had came and disrupted a night out. I have plenty of friends who are over-weight and we get along just fine. Hell, my own parents are over-weight, and I do everything I can to try and support them in trying to lose a few pounds, but I can see first hand how apathetic they are to losing weight, they can't always be bothered to cook healthy food, and they enjoy treating themselves with food and drink. People over-eat for a variety of reasons, it doesn't always have to be related to deep emotional issues, sometimes it's purely down to boredom.
I appreciate you try to see the best in everyone, and I honestly do agree to some extent, but at times it's just not realistic. Are you friends with everyone you meet? Do you never get annoyed when someone is rude to you? Everyone makes judgements when we meet people, be they favourable or less so, and of course these can vary in their intensity. To suggest otherwise is just sanctimony in the extreme.
I have not been judging you and your valid points are for an argument that to me doesn't exist. There is no argument against showing another human being respect. There is no "but" for empathy. I have been trying not to be to blunt but I really do feel you quickly read through my original post all the time thinking about the fat girl you met who you did not like and I'm being mild with that because your words kind of show your disgust. And relating in this way to my original post you do not or can not acknowledge that in fact people including yourself discriminate against fat people and prejudge who they are by how they look.
My only point in all of this is do not attempt to change people, do not pity them, do not prejudge based on looks just open your heart. The words "try a little tenderness" keep coming into my head http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dael4sb42nI
Absolute rubbish, you are judging me as someone who discriminates, when you have never even met me, all you have are my views on something which is obviously a very emotive subject for you, to which we disagree. This isn't a right and wrong situation, there are many gray areas, and I think it's ignorant to say otherwise, particularly as you weren't there to have experienced the situation.
I did not pre-judge her on her looks, I judged her on her actions. I'm not blind, so clearly I had acknowledged her size when I first met her, but then I see a lot of over-weight people, so that was nothing new to me. I judged her because she came and hi-jacked the conversation for an hour, and would have felt she was obnoxious and rambling if she was thin and had came and disrupted a night out. I have plenty of friends who are over-weight and we get along just fine. Hell, my own parents are over-weight, and I do everything I can to try and support them in trying to lose a few pounds, but I can see first hand how apathetic they are to losing weight, they can't always be bothered to cook healthy food, and they enjoy treating themselves with food and drink. People over-eat for a variety of reasons, it doesn't always have to be related to deep emotional issues, sometimes it's purely down to boredom.
I appreciate you try to see the best in everyone, and I honestly do agree to some extent, but at times it's just not realistic. Are you friends with everyone you meet? Do you never get annoyed when someone is rude to you? Everyone makes judgements when we meet people, be they favourable or less so, and of course these can vary in their intensity. To suggest otherwise is just sanctimony in the extreme.
You didn't tell me if you liked the song I posted for you. I thought it pretty much closed the issue.
Tenderness is a lovely word. So is Smile.
We are all a work in progress but to answer your couple of questions. I happen to think it is realistic to see the best in everyone. It is what we all want for ourselves so its what we must do for others. Yes, I like everyone I meet. No I don't, I quietly say to myself forgive them for they know not what they do. I had some experiences as of late that have opened my heart and I am as I said a work in progress but no I am not judging people anymore. It is wrong. I want to treat others always the way I want to be treated. I am trying to live by the golden rule consciously every day. Our friendly conversation I have hoped will help us both.
You didn't tell me if you liked the song I posted for you. I thought it pretty much closed the issue.
Tenderness is a lovely word. So is Smile.
We are all a work in progress but to answer your couple of questions. I happen to think it is realistic to see the best in everyone. It is what we all want for ourselves so its what we must do for others. Yes, I like everyone I meet. No I don't, I quietly say to myself forgive them for they know not what they do. I had some experiences as of late that have opened my heart and I am as I said a work in progress but no I am not judging people anymore. It is wrong. I want to treat others always the way I want to be treated. I am trying to live by the golden rule consciously every day. Our friendly conversation I have hoped will help us both.
well of course I liked the song, it's Otis Redding!!!!
I think sometimes the best might not amount to much though, and sometimes it doesn't out weigh the bad in a person, like in paedophiles and serial killers. Like I said before, I have compassion for that lost child inside them who didn't choose to have an awful upbringing, and for that reason alone I am against the death penalty. In fact I remember when I was about twelve, hearing on the radio about a convicted killer who was going to be executed the next day, and I was absolutely distraught because all I could keep thinking was that this guy probably had a family and friends who cared about him and how much they would suffer losing him. You can probably imagine the state I was in after watching Dead Man Walking - I don't think I've watched it again since.
Comments
I agree with the spirit of your argument. However...
1. I was refuting your statement that "no peer reviewed study has found anything more than a 9 percent corrolation between obesity and mortality." Obviously that’s not true, since we’re talking about one of the studies right now and neither of us refute its existence or what it says. (I mean we agree about what it says, not that there is no disagreement with what it says.) If you want to question its validity, that’s different than saying it doesn’t exist.
2. It’s not like saying that because of your phenotype you are going to die. I feel like you’re viewing the data from the wrong direction. The study asks why people die (A) and conclude that many people’s deaths can be attributed to having a poor diet and lack of physical activity (and its consequent obesity) (B). It’s “A was caused by B,” not “If B, then A.” It's like if I jumped off a cliff, broke my neck, and died, and someone asked what caused my death. The answer would be “She jumped off a cliff.” But no one is saying that if I jump off a cliff I will necessarily die.
3. I don’t agree that these studies necessarily create a blame-the-victim mentality. Quite the contrary… they are used to get to the root systemic social determinants of mortality. I feel ike you are suggesting we skip the important link(s) between determinants of health and health outcomes, but if we skip that link we'll never get back far enough to address systemic issues. To use your example about being black, if you want to say black people have lower life expectancies and that’s because of discrimination, you have to first make the link between race and life expectancy before you can ask why black people have lower life expectancies. (As for know1, he makes the same argument about everyone in every thread. These studies had nothing to do with it.)
Most definitely! Fast food is taking over and our younger generations are growing up on a steady diet of fast food and very little physical exercise :(
One of the problems is definitely that fast food is sold so cheaply :?
I work in and am a student of public health, a large (no pun intended) part of which is obesity, though my specialty is reproductive health. Your speech sounds interesting. Maybe you should post the results of your ethnography here for us.
P.S. What was your name on the old board?
I can see your point if you wanted to make a post about carbs. But why is this a reply to my short anecdote about Italian kids? You begin by quoting me, then continue to use the second person throughout both paragraphs: "You, you, (points finger) you."
Most important, or what I should say that bothers me the most, is the abuse/ discrimination that occurs for the overweight population. Those that have been so since childhood experience the teasing and bullying which carries over to a less than polite discrimination as an adult.
If the general population can not be compassionate and understanding then they should at least be respectful because all human beings deserve respect. Once you love a fat person and are no longer ignorant as to what is exactly going on with them you have learned all three- respect, compassion, and understanding and most likely admiration too.
If you are a thin person wondering "why does this person not get thin like me" or "why can't they show some determination, some discipline" open your heart and think about what it is like for this fat person. Don't assume, don't judge, don't pity. Know that the causes run deep, that often food is used to shield oneself from the outside world. It can be used to replace a loving bond as a child. It can become an unhealthy habit that is as addictive as any other consumable.
As we are taught not to see color can we also now embrace the other differences keeping us from loving one another? Can it be time to not see sexual persuasion, not see body shape and size, not see political differences?
And please can it be time to say we will not let the almighty dollar be a deciding factor in discrimination?
I hear what you are saying, but there are cases where some big people are equally ignorant, and I have limited compassion in those situations. I was down the pub a little while ago and the sister of my mate's girlfriend came and sat with us. She's probably a good 6 stone (84lbs) over weight and she apparently couldn't care less. Doesn't care about her health, "diet's don't work" etc. We listened to her ramble on about how she didn't care if she was fat, for about an hour, and it became quite obvious that she in fact did care and this was all just an OTT defense mechanism. Part of me did feel sorry for her, but the other part of me thinks that wallowing in your own misery for a life time never got anyone anywhere. There is so much decent, useful, not to mention free information out there to help people lose weight, so when people come out with rubbish like "diet's don't work" my sympathy kind of runs out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aimPRKfqKGw
If you are saying this young woman is ignorant or lacks compassion for her own situation because she has not changed it that is truly none of your business. She is and will find her way, in her life, in her time and should not be judged for being who she is or made to feel less because her weight is more.
If you are saying she is ignorant or lacks compassion for you because she is defensive then again respect and kindness, just being treated like everyone else as she deserves, will very much help her to relax, let her guard down and you may be lucky enough to know this girl. You may learn to love this girl which would be the very best thing for you.
Perhaps we are talking about different things. I was of course polite and respectful to her, even though I disagreed with what she was saying. I am in fact a very compassionate person, what she was saying truly saddened me - I don't like to think of people who genuinely have no hope of improving their lives. The truth is though that there comes a point when we all need a bit of a kick up the arse. Of course there are ways of saying things, but to me being truthful is the most respect you can give. I particularly think it's important with obesity since it can have such a profound effect on your health.
In terms of this particular situation I think she was ignorant in that she completely hi-jacked the conversation for an hour and essentially trashed any medical arguments against being severely over weight. Why would me loving her be the best thing for me?! She's loud and brash and doesn't respect other people's opinions. None of that makes me hate her or anything, but if I followed your line of thinking I should like everyone I meet, because there is always some reason behind a person's negative personality traits. And you say that she will find her way in her life, but many people spend their whole lives obese and die that way, which is sad, no matter how you try to sugar coat it.
I fear it would have been pretty disappointing, I only spoke a couple of times, I'm not sure she even heard me, there were quite a few people, all just listening to her. In fact nobody really got a word in edge ways. It wasn't a debate or anything, she basically sat there drunk, ranting about how she doesn't wanna be a skinny bitch because she loves chocolate, she likes having big tits and diets don't work anyway (all her words).
So are there people who aren't good enough for my love? I mean I can understand that a traumatic childhood can lead to people commiting hideous acts as adults, and whilst I have compassion for that inner child who didn't choose to have a shitty upbringing, loving them wouldn't fulfill any personal needs I might have - those would be fulfilled by the people I choose to be close to.
So if you had a friend who had a really destructive aspect to their life, you wouldn't want to actually help them? Empathy is all very well, but that alone isn't going to help them change their situation. Arguably the biggest problem these people have is that they don't have any real perspective on their problems. People go into denial, they try to escape their problems. To me a good friend is someone who isn't afraid to call you on something, who will be truthful, yet understanding. Part of that however, means that you have to pass judgement, you might have to tell that person that if they continue on the same path that they could die. I think it would be pretty selfish to just stand by and say nothing all becuase I didn't want to look like the bad guy.
I think the problem with obesity is that it's not always seen as an immediate risk and therefore it's not taken so seriously. It's strange how we take the oppoiste, i.e. someone purposfully starving themselves to death that bit more seriously.
I've been too busy lately to play the sports I've always done since a small child, and too poor to buy proper ingredients (and too busy to cook myself proper meals!!)
I can acknowledge the problem...
i heard that Canadians are climbing up the stats on the obesity front...
That said... I still don't know what I'm in for when i order a medium drink in a US restaurant :shock:
I went back through and did so and I noticed your original post and so on used words to describe your encounter such as she rambled, didn't care, she wallowed in misery, you felt sorry for her, your sympathy ran out, a good kick in the arse, she was brash & loud, she spoke against medical arguments, empathy is fine BUT, there may be more
my point, sometimes we think we are compassionate, sometimes we are, sometimes compassion is tested, sometimes we are not able to be compassionate because we just don't feel the other person. Your opinion of this woman as many do for her everyday was formed the moment you met her. This is discrimination.
My original post only asks for no judging. That people deserve respect and I feel for this young woman who felt the need to defend who she was with a table full of other young people. I feel the situation speaks for itself.
Ok first of all you've completely ignored a load of the valid points I made in my last post. Secondly, I find it quite ironic that you claim you don't judge people and just want to know what it's really like to be in another person's shoes, yet you are quite happy to sit here and judge me, maybe I'm just not articulating what I feel properly, who knows, but according to you I MUST be descriminating.
I don't need your approval to tell me whether I'm compassionate or not. Just to clarify, I had met her before, when she wasn't drunk. I had no strong feelings at all, sure she was loud and obnoxious, but then so are many slim people, and so are some of my good friends for that matter. If she felt the need to sit and defend herself amongst a group of very passive and friendly people, who had not even broached the subject of weight/food/exercise then I fear that is unfortunately not something I have any control over.
Like I said, if you care about someone enough, you should be willing to forefit your own comfort in not rocking the boat, and actually try to help people, which requires some form of judgement. I couldn't honestly say I would be happy standing around while somebody I care about destroys their body, be it through eating too much, not eating enough, drugs, drink etc.
I don’t think you’re giving this woman enough credit. Do you really think she doesn’t know that she is overweight and that this can have a profound effect on her health? She’s probably experiencing some of those effects already.
Do you really think what she needs to cure her of her “ignorance” is a bit of a kick up the arse from you or anyone else? Like if you tell her she’s fat she’ll suddenly go, “Oh, hey! I didn’t know that! Now I’m going to go change my life! Thank you so much for helping me!”? This could only be productive if she really had no idea that she was overweight, that being overweight is a health concern, and that there are things she can do about it. But of course she already knows these things. I think being understanding – not pointing out something she already knows – is the best respect and help one can give. And when you say “these people” don’t have any real perspective on their problems, I would suggest that that’s not at all understanding and is in fact disrespectful and that it’s you who doesn’t have any real perspective on their problems.
Of course she has perspective on her problems. She lives with them every moment of every day, in a way that she knows you don’t understand. When you talk about her saying diets don’t work and she loves chocolate and having big tits, what I hear from her is “I know you people are already judging me, from the moment you saw me, based solely on my appearance. I don’t feel understood and safe with you, so I’m just going to pretend I don’t care instead of letting you know how I really feel.” (This reminds me of a patient I once knew who told us she wanted an abortion because she didn’t want to ruin her new boob job but, when we persisted with expressing love and understanding, finally opened up with all sorts of profound insights about the situation, which really had nothing to do with her boob job.)
You say that many people spend their whole lives obese and die that way and that this is sad, but you might consider that being overweight is only one small part of who she is and her way (or lack thereof) in life. She could be thinking that you have lost your way in life. (Who among us hasn’t, really?) If she lives and dies as an obese woman with a tremendous capacity to love, and you live and die as a physically fit person who never learns the value of loving people other than those whom you have chosen to be close to, who has really lost their way and whose life is ultimately sad?
Just something to think about.
Disturbing, very very disturbing.
My only point in all of this is do not attempt to change people, do not pity them, do not prejudge based on looks just open your heart. The words "try a little tenderness" keep coming into my head
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dael4sb42nI
Obesity is a bigger problem in the UK than alcoholism and smoking but where are the health warnings on McDs dog burgers? I agree with the comments about the Italians and you don't see too many fat Frenchies. The US is the place for the really large though, I couldn't believe the size of some on my last visit. It's hardly surprising with $10 all you can eat!
Argh where to start?
Some people genuinely don't have a clue about nutrition and what it takes to maintain a healthy body. My point about ignorance, was the fact that she had tried all these diets and they hadn't worked. I see plenty of people at work who claim to be on diets, and they are eating exactly the opposite foods that they should be if they want to lose weight. Now as a caring person should I tell them where they are going wrong, or should I not judge and just let them keep failing?
I know only too well how easy it is to lose perspective on your problems - we all have them. A classic symptom of an addiction is denial, how are you ever going to gain perspective without an outsider helping you in some way to see that things don't have to be that way?
How do you know she has a tremendous capacity to love? She might not. And what's to say I don't have a tremendous capacity to love? I might have. I'd say I have a pretty big cross-section of friends, of all shapes and sizes and personality types, I choose to be close to them because I like and accept them for who they are - that doesn't however stop me being concerned for them when they're doing things to fuck themselves up; but each situation is different, sometimes people need you to be honest with them, and ultimatley like I said before, I think being truthful is the most respect you can give a person.
Absolute rubbish, you are judging me as someone who discriminates, when you have never even met me, all you have are my views on something which is obviously a very emotive subject for you, to which we disagree. This isn't a right and wrong situation, there are many gray areas, and I think it's ignorant to say otherwise, particularly as you weren't there to have experienced the situation.
I did not pre-judge her on her looks, I judged her on her actions. I'm not blind, so clearly I had acknowledged her size when I first met her, but then I see a lot of over-weight people, so that was nothing new to me. I judged her because she came and hi-jacked the conversation for an hour, and would have felt she was obnoxious and rambling if she was thin and had came and disrupted a night out. I have plenty of friends who are over-weight and we get along just fine. Hell, my own parents are over-weight, and I do everything I can to try and support them in trying to lose a few pounds, but I can see first hand how apathetic they are to losing weight, they can't always be bothered to cook healthy food, and they enjoy treating themselves with food and drink. People over-eat for a variety of reasons, it doesn't always have to be related to deep emotional issues, sometimes it's purely down to boredom.
I appreciate you try to see the best in everyone, and I honestly do agree to some extent, but at times it's just not realistic. Are you friends with everyone you meet? Do you never get annoyed when someone is rude to you? Everyone makes judgements when we meet people, be they favourable or less so, and of course these can vary in their intensity. To suggest otherwise is just sanctimony in the extreme.
Tenderness is a lovely word. So is Smile.
We are all a work in progress but to answer your couple of questions. I happen to think it is realistic to see the best in everyone. It is what we all want for ourselves so its what we must do for others. Yes, I like everyone I meet. No I don't, I quietly say to myself forgive them for they know not what they do. I had some experiences as of late that have opened my heart and I am as I said a work in progress but no I am not judging people anymore. It is wrong. I want to treat others always the way I want to be treated. I am trying to live by the golden rule consciously every day. Our friendly conversation I have hoped will help us both.
well of course I liked the song, it's Otis Redding!!!!
I think sometimes the best might not amount to much though, and sometimes it doesn't out weigh the bad in a person, like in paedophiles and serial killers. Like I said before, I have compassion for that lost child inside them who didn't choose to have an awful upbringing, and for that reason alone I am against the death penalty. In fact I remember when I was about twelve, hearing on the radio about a convicted killer who was going to be executed the next day, and I was absolutely distraught because all I could keep thinking was that this guy probably had a family and friends who cared about him and how much they would suffer losing him. You can probably imagine the state I was in after watching Dead Man Walking - I don't think I've watched it again since.