Obesity only here in the USA ?

polaris_x

has anyone seen "cloudy with a chance of meatballs"? ... i thought the subtext to the movie was about food and his machine was a metaphor for our industrialized food system ...

RW81233

That and other articles in JAMA are what these books are arguing against. Basically Campos and Oliver go back through all those studies that are most popularly cited and found that even the most damning studies have found that there's, at most a 9 percent correlation, between obesity and death and no causal link. So it's not the "fat" per se that is killing us, but rather the things you pointed to poor nutrition, physical inactivity and so on that is whether you are thin or fat. By causally linking fat to death through studies like those you mention it's like saying that because of your phenotype you are going to die. Put differently it would be like saying that a black person is going to die early because they are black, not because of the discrimination, stress, class background, and culture that has lowered the life expectancy for minorities in America. What they, and I argue this does is make it easy to blame the individual for their personal failings (like know1 is doing) and not getting to the systemic issues that are killing all of us earlier than we should be.

_

RW81233 wrote:

That and other articles in JAMA are what these books are arguing against. Basically Campos and Oliver go back through all those studies that are most popularly cited and found that even the most damning studies have found that there's, at most a 9 percent correlation, between obesity and death and no causal link. So it's not the "fat" per se that is killing us, but rather the things you pointed to poor nutrition, physical inactivity and so on that is whether you are thin or fat. By causally linking fat to death through studies like those you mention it's like saying that because of your phenotype you are going to die. Put differently it would be like saying that a black person is going to die early because they are black, not because of the discrimination, stress, class background, and culture that has lowered the life expectancy for minorities in America. What they, and I argue this does is make it easy to blame the individual for their personal failings (like know1 is doing) and not getting to the systemic issues that are killing all of us earlier than we should be.

I agree with the spirit of your argument. However...

1. I was refuting your statement that "no peer reviewed study has found anything more than a 9 percent corrolation between obesity and mortality." Obviously that’s not true, since we’re talking about one of the studies right now and neither of us refute its existence or what it says. (I mean we agree about what it says, not that there is no disagreement with what it says.) If you want to question its validity, that’s different than saying it doesn’t exist.

2. It’s not like saying that because of your phenotype you are going to die. I feel like you’re viewing the data from the wrong direction. The study asks why people die (A) and conclude that many people’s deaths can be attributed to having a poor diet and lack of physical activity (and its consequent obesity) (B). It’s “A was caused by B,” not “If B, then A.” It's like if I jumped off a cliff, broke my neck, and died, and someone asked what caused my death. The answer would be “She jumped off a cliff.” But no one is saying that if I jump off a cliff I will necessarily die.

3. I don’t agree that these studies necessarily create a blame-the-victim mentality. Quite the contrary… they are used to get to the root systemic social determinants of mortality. I feel ike you are suggesting we skip the important link(s) between determinants of health and health outcomes, but if we skip that link we'll never get back far enough to address systemic issues. To use your example about being black, if you want to say black people have lower life expectancies and that’s because of discrimination, you have to first make the link between race and life expectancy before you can ask why black people have lower life expectancies. (As for know1, he makes the same argument about everyone in every thread. These studies had nothing to do with it.)

RW81233

haha fair enough...i get your argument now, and as usual i think we both generally agree on things. don't you do work on health and obesity outside of this website? i'm actually giving a keynote on it at the University of Maryland in 1 1/2 weeks. i did an ethnography at a food company and i'm showing how even in a company that tries its best they can't because capitalism prevents it.

Poor Mad Sailor

Brisk. wrote:

But our nation has a growing problem though.

Most definitely! Fast food is taking over and our younger generations are growing up on a steady diet of fast food and very little physical exercise :(

One of the problems is definitely that fast food is sold so cheaply :?

_

RW81233 wrote:

haha fair enough...i get your argument now, and as usual i think we both generally agree on things. don't you do work on health and obesity outside of this website? i'm actually giving a keynote on it at the University of Maryland in 1 1/2 weeks. i did an ethnography at a food company and i'm showing how even in a company that tries its best they can't because capitalism prevents it.

I work in and am a student of public health, a large (no pun intended) part of which is obesity, though my specialty is reproductive health. Your speech sounds interesting. Maybe you should post the results of your ethnography here for us.

P.S. What was your name on the old board?

RW81233

scb wrote:

RW81233 wrote:

haha fair enough...i get your argument now, and as usual i think we both generally agree on things. don't you do work on health and obesity outside of this website? i'm actually giving a keynote on it at the University of Maryland in 1 1/2 weeks. i did an ethnography at a food company and i'm showing how even in a company that tries its best they can't because capitalism prevents it.

I work in and am a student of public health, a large (no pun intended) part of which is obesity, though my specialty is reproductive health. Your speech sounds interesting. Maybe you should post the results of your ethnography here for us.

P.S. What was your name on the old board?

ryan198 on the oldie...School of Pub Health where? It sounds like you know what you're doing...I'm giving the presentation at the Ribbon Cutting ceremony at the School of Public Health at UMD. Should be interesting b/c they have this competition where you slap a This is PH sticker on something and take a pic to publicize the ceremony. Thing is they have a bunch of raging cultural studies kids in the school who are gonna go around putting a ? mark at the end and slapping the stickers on our Pepsi machines, and snack machines, b/c the school sold out to pouring rights and the crappy bike racks that are easy to steal from b/c the school is too cheap to repair them.

TravisTheSky

facepollution wrote:

I'm not saying that organic whole foods aren't good for you, but eating those foods won't stop you getting fat if you over eat, regardless of how fresh or organic they are. Children can often get away with 'over-eating' because they are growing. It's the same for a body builder, if they want to grow bigger they must eat more calories than they burn off.
Bread, pasta and sugar in abundance will make you fat. The body doesn't like to have sugar (including starches like flour, rice etc) floating around, so it sends out insulin which is for all intents and purposes a fat storing hormone. As soon as your body starts processing carbs the body will cease buring body fat as fuel and starts storing the excess carbs as fat in the fat cells. Is it any wonder then given how we're told to eat a low fat high carb diet, that people find it difficult to lose weight? If you're consistently eating carbs throughout the day, it's quite possible that your insulin levels would NEVER be low enough to allow you to burn body fat as fuel - even if you are on a calorie deficit. And in the event that you do lose weight, you would most likely be breaking down muscle to use as fuel, since your body physically can not access its fat stores.

I can see your point if you wanted to make a post about carbs. But why is this a reply to my short anecdote about Italian kids? You begin by quoting me, then continue to use the second person throughout both paragraphs: "You, you, (points finger) you."

pandora

There are so many factors contributing to people being overweight. For each individual there are multiple factors not one.
Most important, or what I should say that bothers me the most, is the abuse/ discrimination that occurs for the overweight population. Those that have been so since childhood experience the teasing and bullying which carries over to a less than polite discrimination as an adult.
If the general population can not be compassionate and understanding then they should at least be respectful because all human beings deserve respect. Once you love a fat person and are no longer ignorant as to what is exactly going on with them you have learned all three- respect, compassion, and understanding and most likely admiration too.
If you are a thin person wondering "why does this person not get thin like me" or "why can't they show some determination, some discipline" open your heart and think about what it is like for this fat person. Don't assume, don't judge, don't pity. Know that the causes run deep, that often food is used to shield oneself from the outside world. It can be used to replace a loving bond as a child. It can become an unhealthy habit that is as addictive as any other consumable.
As we are taught not to see color can we also now embrace the other differences keeping us from loving one another? Can it be time to not see sexual persuasion, not see body shape and size, not see political differences?
And please can it be time to say we will not let the almighty dollar be a deciding factor in discrimination?

facepollution

^^^^^^^^

I hear what you are saying, but there are cases where some big people are equally ignorant, and I have limited compassion in those situations. I was down the pub a little while ago and the sister of my mate's girlfriend came and sat with us. She's probably a good 6 stone (84lbs) over weight and she apparently couldn't care less. Doesn't care about her health, "diet's don't work" etc. We listened to her ramble on about how she didn't care if she was fat, for about an hour, and it became quite obvious that she in fact did care and this was all just an OTT defense mechanism. Part of me did feel sorry for her, but the other part of me thinks that wallowing in your own misery for a life time never got anyone anywhere. There is so much decent, useful, not to mention free information out there to help people lose weight, so when people come out with rubbish like "diet's don't work" my sympathy kind of runs out.

MayDay10

^^^^ Like this guy?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aimPRKfqKGw

facepollution

MayDay10 wrote:

^^^^ Like this guy?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aimPRKfqKGw

pandora

facepollution wrote:

^^^^^^^^

I hear what you are saying, but there are cases where some big people are equally ignorant, and I have limited compassion in those situations. I was down the pub a little while ago and the sister of my mate's girlfriend came and sat with us. She's probably a good 6 stone (84lbs) over weight and she apparently couldn't care less. Doesn't care about her health, "diet's don't work" etc. We listened to her ramble on about how she didn't care if she was fat, for about an hour, and it became quite obvious that she in fact did care and this was all just an OTT defense mechanism. Part of me did feel sorry for her, but the other part of me thinks that wallowing in your own misery for a life time never got anyone anywhere. There is so much decent, useful, not to mention free information out there to help people lose weight, so when people come out with rubbish like "diet's don't work" my sympathy kind of runs out.

Actually I don't really think you hear what I am saying. If you are unable to be compassionate and understanding of an overweight person be respectful of them. Be kind, not sympathetic, pity is demeaning. Just open your heart and accept the person as though they were a loved one. Perhaps you would not meet as many defensive people if that were the case.
If you are saying this young woman is ignorant or lacks compassion for her own situation because she has not changed it that is truly none of your business. She is and will find her way, in her life, in her time and should not be judged for being who she is or made to feel less because her weight is more.
If you are saying she is ignorant or lacks compassion for you because she is defensive then again respect and kindness, just being treated like everyone else as she deserves, will very much help her to relax, let her guard down and you may be lucky enough to know this girl. You may learn to love this girl which would be the very best thing for you.

facepollution

pandora wrote:

Actually I don't really think you hear what I am saying. If you are unable to be compassionate and understanding of an overweight person be respectful of them. Be kind, not sympathetic, pity is demeaning. Just open your heart and accept the person as though they were a loved one. Perhaps you would not meet as many defensive people if that were the case.

Perhaps we are talking about different things. I was of course polite and respectful to her, even though I disagreed with what she was saying. I am in fact a very compassionate person, what she was saying truly saddened me - I don't like to think of people who genuinely have no hope of improving their lives. The truth is though that there comes a point when we all need a bit of a kick up the arse. Of course there are ways of saying things, but to me being truthful is the most respect you can give. I particularly think it's important with obesity since it can have such a profound effect on your health.

pandora wrote:

If you are saying this young woman is ignorant or lacks compassion for her own situation because she has not changed it that is truly none of your business. She is and will find her way, in her life, in her time and should not be judged for being who she is or made to feel less because her weight is more.
If you are saying she is ignorant or lacks compassion for you because she is defensive then again respect and kindness, just being treated like everyone else as she deserves, will very much help her to relax, let her guard down and you may be lucky enough to know this girl. You may learn to love this girl which would be the very best thing for you.

In terms of this particular situation I think she was ignorant in that she completely hi-jacked the conversation for an hour and essentially trashed any medical arguments against being severely over weight. Why would me loving her be the best thing for me?! She's loud and brash and doesn't respect other people's opinions. None of that makes me hate her or anything, but if I followed your line of thinking I should like everyone I meet, because there is always some reason behind a person's negative personality traits. And you say that she will find her way in her life, but many people spend their whole lives obese and die that way, which is sad, no matter how you try to sugar coat it.

pandora

I think I would have liked to be a fly on the wall for that hour you spent with this young woman. In ways your words give away what one might feel if they were present. Of course for you to love anyone would do you good, unless you feel them not good enough for your love. And yes, for me, loving and understanding others is the goal of life. Not to judge or expect or feel sorry for but to truly stand in another's shoes and feel what they feel and love them for who they are.

facepollution

pandora wrote:

I think I would have liked to be a fly on the wall for that hour you spent with this young woman. In ways your words give away what one might feel if they were present. Of course for you to love anyone would do you good, unless you feel them not good enough for your love.

I fear it would have been pretty disappointing, I only spoke a couple of times, I'm not sure she even heard me, there were quite a few people, all just listening to her. In fact nobody really got a word in edge ways. It wasn't a debate or anything, she basically sat there drunk, ranting about how she doesn't wanna be a skinny bitch because she loves chocolate, she likes having big tits and diets don't work anyway (all her words).

So are there people who aren't good enough for my love? I mean I can understand that a traumatic childhood can lead to people commiting hideous acts as adults, and whilst I have compassion for that inner child who didn't choose to have a shitty upbringing, loving them wouldn't fulfill any personal needs I might have - those would be fulfilled by the people I choose to be close to.

pandora wrote:

And yes, for me, loving and understanding others is the goal of life. Not to judge or expect or feel sorry for but to truly stand in another's shoes and feel what they feel and love them for who they are.

So if you had a friend who had a really destructive aspect to their life, you wouldn't want to actually help them? Empathy is all very well, but that alone isn't going to help them change their situation. Arguably the biggest problem these people have is that they don't have any real perspective on their problems. People go into denial, they try to escape their problems. To me a good friend is someone who isn't afraid to call you on something, who will be truthful, yet understanding. Part of that however, means that you have to pass judgement, you might have to tell that person that if they continue on the same path that they could die. I think it would be pretty selfish to just stand by and say nothing all becuase I didn't want to look like the bad guy.

I think the problem with obesity is that it's not always seen as an immediate risk and therefore it's not taken so seriously. It's strange how we take the oppoiste, i.e. someone purposfully starving themselves to death that bit more seriously.

haffajappa

polaris_x wrote:

has anyone seen "cloudy with a chance of meatballs"? ... i thought the subtext to the movie was about food and his machine was a metaphor for our industrialized food system ...

and wall.e was a good one too... about obesity and laziness anyways

haffajappa

I'm ballooning and it is disgusting.
I've been too busy lately to play the sports I've always done since a small child, and too poor to buy proper ingredients (and too busy to cook myself proper meals!!)

I can acknowledge the problem...
i heard that Canadians are climbing up the stats on the obesity front...


That said... I still don't know what I'm in for when i order a medium drink in a US restaurant :shock:

pandora

please facepollution do me one favor- reread my original post- then perhaps yours then my next etc.
I went back through and did so and I noticed your original post and so on used words to describe your encounter such as she rambled, didn't care, she wallowed in misery, you felt sorry for her, your sympathy ran out, a good kick in the arse, she was brash & loud, she spoke against medical arguments, empathy is fine BUT, there may be more
my point, sometimes we think we are compassionate, sometimes we are, sometimes compassion is tested, sometimes we are not able to be compassionate because we just don't feel the other person. Your opinion of this woman as many do for her everyday was formed the moment you met her. This is discrimination.
My original post only asks for no judging. That people deserve respect and I feel for this young woman who felt the need to defend who she was with a table full of other young people. I feel the situation speaks for itself.

facepollution

pandora wrote:

please facepollution do me one favor- reread my original post- then perhaps yours then my next etc.
I went back through and did so and I noticed your original post and so on used words to describe your encounter such as she rambled, didn't care, she wallowed in misery, you felt sorry for her, your sympathy ran out, a good kick in the arse, she was brash & loud, she spoke against medical arguments, empathy is fine BUT, there may be more
my point, sometimes we think we are compassionate, sometimes we are, sometimes compassion is tested, sometimes we are not able to be compassionate because we just don't feel the other person. Your opinion of this woman as many do for her everyday was formed the moment you met her. This is discrimination.
My original post only asks for no judging. That people deserve respect and I feel for this young woman who felt the need to defend who she was with a table full of other young people. I feel the situation speaks for itself.

Ok first of all you've completely ignored a load of the valid points I made in my last post. Secondly, I find it quite ironic that you claim you don't judge people and just want to know what it's really like to be in another person's shoes, yet you are quite happy to sit here and judge me, maybe I'm just not articulating what I feel properly, who knows, but according to you I MUST be descriminating.

I don't need your approval to tell me whether I'm compassionate or not. Just to clarify, I had met her before, when she wasn't drunk. I had no strong feelings at all, sure she was loud and obnoxious, but then so are many slim people, and so are some of my good friends for that matter. If she felt the need to sit and defend herself amongst a group of very passive and friendly people, who had not even broached the subject of weight/food/exercise then I fear that is unfortunately not something I have any control over.

Like I said, if you care about someone enough, you should be willing to forefit your own comfort in not rocking the boat, and actually try to help people, which requires some form of judgement. I couldn't honestly say I would be happy standing around while somebody I care about destroys their body, be it through eating too much, not eating enough, drugs, drink etc.